LittleGuy99
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Separating only those who voted for 4-A we have:
Agree: 15 (Including 2 staff)
Neutral: 2 (Including 1 staff)
Disagree: 5
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The biggest Deltarune CRT in history: Chapters 3 & 4 Tiering, LS and Speed Upgrades
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
- Start date
- Status
Agree: 15 (Including 2 staff)
Neutral: 2 (Including 1 staff)
Disagree: 5
LittleGuy99
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From what I can see, the majority agreed only a few argued against it
And we didn't have any major disagreements with other staff, only one neutral vote
And we didn't have any major disagreements with other staff, only one neutral vote
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Qualification for stabilization feat applicability for the 4-A rating requirements (As quoted above.) has yet to be discussed & reached a majority on, though, right?
Also, I'm assuming based on the absence, but is it the case 0 staff have currently chosen Disagree regarding the matter in your quoted post?
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Quoting for context because new page.
Stabilization Feats
This is a type of feat where a character's existence, energy, presence, or any given factor from them sustains a structure on any given scale. And through their sustenance, their statistics are subsequently tiered to being at the level of power that is relative to the given scale of the...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Regarding Chapter 1 through 3 vote, having skimmed the thread, I tentatively support Option 2.
That said, I am very tired & sleepy; Have been since before checking into the forum about 2 hours ago today. Not 100% for debating & analysis. (& for those concerned about the pacing of my responses, I fear I should mention it's uncertain that I'll be available on the weekend.) Apologies.
I hope I was able to help. Sorry if I wasn't.
That said, I am very tired & sleepy; Have been since before checking into the forum about 2 hours ago today. Not 100% for debating & analysis. (& for those concerned about the pacing of my responses, I fear I should mention it's uncertain that I'll be available on the weekend.) Apologies.
I hope I was able to help. Sorry if I wasn't.
LittleGuy99
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Sptflcrw was the only one I saw talking about it, I don't know much about the subject
Many of us disagreed with his reasoning before, because he said the same thing over and over and didn't respond very well
No staff voted against (1 - 2 - 3)
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Maybe my brain is not thinking ideally because sleepy, but if there's a majority among the Staff votes, I'll currently say that I'll tentatively support that. If there are issues with the resulting stance, other Staff &/or Knowledgeable Members should bring it up, please.
I'd at least like to know what Staff think about the Stabilization feat requirement 2 stuff for the Titan feat, assuming they hadn't already considered it when voting.
SnakesCity
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Should probably ping other staff to get them to comment on it.
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I hope it can be forgiven of me, but I'm in favor of waiting at least 24 hours, in case they're attentive enough to respond of their own volition, as posting in a thread makes you follow it, & they likely have their own priorities to attend to.
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I did already say this, though, in OP:
That alongside the fact that the Titans are Darkness in their purest form, as the Titan Spawn already is weak to and get destroyed by light, as it's literally its opposite element. Titan also gets a similar description and its insides are the same as a Dark Fountain (as shown by also its fingers "evaporate" from exposure to Kris' Light).
Meaning that the Titan is physically made of Darkness in its purest form, the thing that molds and gives shape to everything in the Dark World.
This is nice, but I'd like an opinion on the above too, in the meantime.
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Literally everything in every Dark World is made of darkness, though, lol. Darkness is also very explicitly not physical in nature, so trying to scale the Titan's physicals to something that isn't physical in nature in the first place doesn't make sense.
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Huh, yeah, but not literally. People like Spamton, Queen, Gerson or Mizzle are clearly still physical. Darkness is only the "base" composition, but the real components are something else.
Which contradicts your own claim above.
Being physical is actually a point against scaling from non-physical abilities.
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No they're not? Nearly every enemy in Chapter 2 is a computer program of some sort, including Spamton, just for example. What does them being based off real objects have to do with anything?
How does darkness being non physical mean Darkners aren't made of darkness?
First of all, darkness isn't a UPS. And you are trying to scale it physically. You've proposed that it's attack potency and durability would scale. Those are physical qualities.
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Are you saying that Queen/Tenna isn't made of metal, or that Mizzle isn't made of water?
I said they're not made of pure darkness like Titan is.
What's a UPS lol?
So Ki in Dragon Ball can't scale to physicals because it's non-physical, wow.
No, the entire purpose is to scale non-physical abilities to the physical prowess, it's indeed possible to do so. You're making up standards again, as usual.
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When did I suggest that?
How is that relevant? Pure darkness is never once implied to be more powerful. Chapter 1 Ralsei is pure darkness as well, why aren't you proposing for him to be 4-A as well?
Universal energy system, sorry. Some other places call them universal power systems.
Yes it is? Ki carries physical, real energy, and it can be used to physically enhance the user. Darkness is not physical and it does not create real objects or worlds. It does so by warping and distorting reality.
I don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore, lol. Deltarune doesn't even have a UES/UPS.
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Because he isn't a fountain + he's made of fluff.
Which is comparable for VSBW standards. Idk why you're trying so hard to make them different by pure semantics, as both pure creation and reality warping are impossible irl, both require altering reality in a way.
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Neither is a titan. They're similar, but they're not the same.
No they're not. It's not semantics at all. You need to prove that reality warping can scale to the character's physicals. There is no UES involved, and the objects and worlds created aren't physical, and they are not created through any sort of physical energy that could be transferred into an attack.
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Broken disc atp.
I did.
How many times are you going to say "no it's not" despite everything I explain? You're getting real boring atp.
Pegasus124467
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Isn't your argument at first
"Titans don't immediately nuke the general area meaning they lack the AP"
Even though as I've also stated before, this is like a AP =/= DC situation where it hits with that force but the area onscreen isn't destroyed
This is the majority of your argument on why they aren't the same, because they don't nuke the general area.
There are more notable similarities then differences anyways. Summoned the same, sealed the same, Ralsei states it could be like a Dark Fountain.
Also about the physical thing, I can't understand too much, but from what I'm getting, you're saying that the Delta Warriors take no physical damage, but instead every enemy has to reality warp to deal damage to them?
"Titans don't immediately nuke the general area meaning they lack the AP"
Even though as I've also stated before, this is like a AP =/= DC situation where it hits with that force but the area onscreen isn't destroyed
This is the majority of your argument on why they aren't the same, because they don't nuke the general area.
There are more notable similarities then differences anyways. Summoned the same, sealed the same, Ralsei states it could be like a Dark Fountain.
Also about the physical thing, I can't understand too much, but from what I'm getting, you're saying that the Delta Warriors take no physical damage, but instead every enemy has to reality warp to deal damage to them?
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No. My two main arguments are "Titans lack many qualities of Dark Fountains, so why should they scale to one" and "Dark Fountains do not create anything with any actual physical energy to begin with, so scaling it to physicals is baseless." Please stop talking about DC. I've already explained many times that that's not the problem.
This is irrelevant. They're similar, and have many of the same qualities, but they aren't the same. You guys are just being disingenuous at this point when you're saying they are. Dark Fountains don't shoot lasers at and try to kill anyone nearby, and Titans don't create and sustain Dark Worlds. You've played the game (I hope, if you're commenting on this), so you should know there are differences between them.
No. The reason we consider creation feats valid is because it's logical to assume that any energy that is used to create an object would be able to be used in an attack. Similar logic goes for sustaining things. But if that object doesn't actually have physical energy and was not created with physical energy, then scaling it to physicals is baseless. Literally every single time Dark Worlds are described in any capacity, words like "untrue", "illusion", "fantasy", and "not real" are used. It's warping reality, not creating actual, real, physical objects.
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Damn let's make them 11-C then given they ain't real.
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Regardless, lol, no. Creation is treated here as a form of Reality Warping, treating them any differently when by physics they're the same is absurd.
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Not what I'm suggesting. We have plenty of characters and series on this site who only have their powers in certain, alternate realities, like Omori, for example. Kris, Susie, and the others being ranked as 8-A or whatever we decide to go with is fine as long as we specify that's only in the Dark World, which we do. But that doesn't change the fact that creating and sustaining Dark World is A) Not done with physical power, and B) Creates no physical mass or anything like that. It's reality warping. It breaks the standards for both our creation and stabilization feat requirements.
That's not true. We don't even do that with other characters in the same verse. Most valid creation feats use some kind of energy source that can be proven to be channeled into the user's attacks.
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I already explained why the Spamton NEO and Titan situation is fundamentally different.
We do use reality warping, actually.
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Yeah, and your explanation was poor.
The Soul King meets the requirements I talked about earlier. Dark Fountains don't.
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Tell that to the staff who agree with me.
The thing has been basically accepted, there's no point in repeating yourself like a broken disc, and if nothing can convince you, then I'll stop to waste time.
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W rebuttal.
Pegasus124467
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You debunk it by calling it "irrelevant" even though it's clearly some big counter to your argument
"I hope you've played the game"
Classic ad hominiem. Anyways Titans are called mindless beings of destruction by Ralsei, who proceeds to state two seconds later that they're similar in property.
Hell, you literally see onscreen
- Summoned like a Dark Fountain
- Made of Darkness absolute like a Dark Fountain
- Ralsei says they're like a dark fountain on multiple occasions (Chapters 2 and 4)
- Sealed like a Dark Fountain
Saying "Dark Fountains don't shoot lasers" is honestly ridiculous considering above and it's like saying various people don't use Ki attacks because their signature move isn't the Kamehameha.
As I've said, There was ANOTHER dark fountain sustaining the world, Titans are formed in preexisting Dark Worlds, and they only destroy so there is no need to make the assumption they have to sustain and create something.
Hell, this is absolutely the definition of "Two sides of the same coin" same material and value, just different outcomes. Heads and Tails are different, yet they're on one coin with the same value.
Jeez, Berdly skipping school by faking a coma he never actually got because it ain't real?
Regardless, there's a whole point in Deltarune where people like Noelle question if it was a dream, and Noelle gets the response "it was real" in Chapter 4 of the snowgrave route, and people in Dark Worlds from Light Worlds take real damage, like Berdly in TWO cases, being in a coma or having his arm sore.
It is also never "every time" the only example I've ever seen it called a "illusion" was at the beginning of chapter 3.
Also every time they make a Dark Fountain, Darkness is shown sprouting up. In chapter 2, Kris jumps off the fountain spewing it, and this ACTUALLY caused darkness to be moved out of the massive stream, showing it can be physically interacted with.
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No? You've already had a mod say that more discussion is needed from other staff on whether the stabilization requirements are met. No mods have mentioned that all changes can be applied. It is not accepted yet.
Pegasus124467
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Wasn't the mod explicitly quoting 4-A and not things like 7-B?
SnakesCity
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Not too interested in arguing ATM as i have things to do after posting this but the Titan does in-fact sustain their own dark world or at least uses reality warping in a similar way, when it hatches it releases the same smoke particles tied to dark fountains and the same smoke particles are seen drifting through the sanctuary as the fun gang runs to get back on it.
There's also the fact that Titan Spawn...spawn more easily and in larger numbers, keep in mind it's stated they only appear in places of "deep dark" which implies the Titan hatching has bathed the area in even more darkness (which would make sense if the Titan also acted like a fountain and spread darkness everywhere). When the fun gang reaches the end of the road as well Ralsei states that the Titan has already been there the whole time Lord English style, which sounds like blatant reality warping to me.
And finally after you seal the Titan you end up back in the same room you started in, just like when you end up back where you were in the Light World after sealing a fountain, which wouldn't really be possible without reality warping.
To also address the "Dark Fountains don't shoot lasers" thing well.....Ralsei already says Titan are made from fountains growing too strong, dark fountains as they are normally are obviously not as volatile as Titans are.
There's also the fact that Titan Spawn...spawn more easily and in larger numbers, keep in mind it's stated they only appear in places of "deep dark" which implies the Titan hatching has bathed the area in even more darkness (which would make sense if the Titan also acted like a fountain and spread darkness everywhere). When the fun gang reaches the end of the road as well Ralsei states that the Titan has already been there the whole time Lord English style, which sounds like blatant reality warping to me.
And finally after you seal the Titan you end up back in the same room you started in, just like when you end up back where you were in the Light World after sealing a fountain, which wouldn't really be possible without reality warping.
To also address the "Dark Fountains don't shoot lasers" thing well.....Ralsei already says Titan are made from fountains growing too strong, dark fountains as they are normally are obviously not as volatile as Titans are.
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That and the fact that they could have read it and still not bothered to answer because of the fact they still agree, they're not obligated in answering you.
Regardless I'll apply the CRT tomorrow, if none of these staff will reply in the meantime. Good night y'all.
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Replying to a few things at once. Starting with Pegasus's comments.
And yes, it is. In the Chapter 3 opening monologue alone he says it like half a dozen times. Dark Worlds are repeatedly emphasized to be "real."
SnakesCity: Not going to reply to all of this as I actually agree with most of it, but I don't think it really challenges my main arguments. The Titan definitely creates darkness, I'm not disputing that, but it doesn't warp and create realities in the same way Dark Fountains do. I also don't think that the Titan is really implied to have existed retroactively or anything like that, that requires way too much speculation to argue for. And I don't see why Kris and Susie winding up back at the ground floor matters, the Titan was standing right near there anyway.
It's not. If you think I'm arguing that DC=AP, you should read that explanation I gave earlier.
That's not what ad hominiem means, and it's not exactly unfounded considering that at least one other person who tried arguing with me admitted to having not finished the game, lol. Anyway, all this proves is that they share certain attributes, which I've never disputed. They don't share all attributes, though.
Darkness isn't a UES, and this doesn't even make sense. You completely ignored the point.
This is irrelevant. There is no evidence they could sustain a Dark World.
Berdly wasn't just put in a coma, he was frozen solid. Yet in the Light World he's not. Same thing with his arm. It gets fried in the Dark World, but in the Light World, it's just numb and unmoving. My argument is not that Dark Worlds are entirely imaginary and fictional, it's that they aren't physical in nature.
And yes, it is. In the Chapter 3 opening monologue alone he says it like half a dozen times. Dark Worlds are repeatedly emphasized to be "real."
Not sure what your point is. Could you please elaborate a bit?
No. Imaginym said they'd like more staff input on whether the stabilization feat is valid. And all DarkDragonMedeus said was that staff need to evaluate, not referring to anything specific, far as I can tell.
SnakesCity: Not going to reply to all of this as I actually agree with most of it, but I don't think it really challenges my main arguments. The Titan definitely creates darkness, I'm not disputing that, but it doesn't warp and create realities in the same way Dark Fountains do. I also don't think that the Titan is really implied to have existed retroactively or anything like that, that requires way too much speculation to argue for. And I don't see why Kris and Susie winding up back at the ground floor matters, the Titan was standing right near there anyway.
You actually are obligated to get staff to approve your CRT, especially when two of them have called for more staff to discuss it. Not responding is not a disagreement. You should just message or ping them.
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As you allowed, I applied the changes to everything. So I'll thank you for this.
Regardless, given the controversy that surely will arise around them, the following needs to be locked:
Last, but not least, the MU between Sans and the Roaring Knight has to be removed from Sans' profile in his losses, as the mechanics of the thread now have radically changed, thus the fight is just outdated.
You guys can do what I asked above if Ima can't do that.
I thank also everyone else who helped here.
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I locked the aforementioned pages and removed Roaring Knights. Anything else need to be done or read besides closing the thread?
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Definitely not, will tell in case I or someone else notices later. For now, this can be closed.
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