The biggest Deltarune CRT in history: Chapters 3 & 4 Tiering, LS and Speed Upgrades

[Pegasus124467]

Tbh "it's outlier" is disingeneous. I already said before that only the God Tiers (7 characters) would scale, and there's been genuine power growth to justify it.

Don't use just feelings and vibes to give ratings, use actual evidence, as otherwise we can't powerscale to begin with.

Sorry I'm not too much of a fan of outliers and big jumps all of a sudden because it's really a heavy debate on those whenever I see them

Like I said, undertale does have big jumps as well and like you said there is power growth that could justify it.

And now that I think about it, the only reason that I'm NOT agreeing on it really is because for really no reason now that I realize

So for now, I guess I could agree for possibly 4-A until a actual debunk for this that hasn't been rebunked already comes out and it makes sense

 

[OrangeFR]

Agree with everything except 4-A stuff. I think possibly 4-A might be alright, but straight up 4-A is just not consistent with literally anything else in the verse whatsoever

 

[Lilybitdun]

Agree with everything except 4-A stuff. I think possibly 4-A might be alright, but straight up 4-A is just not consistent with literally anything else in the verse whatsoever

It's already proposed as a possibly rating in OP's post

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree with everything except 4-A stuff. I think possibly 4-A might be alright, but straight up 4-A is just not consistent with literally anything else in the verse whatsoever

We don't plan to just add 4-A, but only "Possibly 4-A"

 

[Sparkive]

Leaving everything else aside, this clearly doesn't refer to strength:

Lanino and Elnina's last attack is specifically about the combination of "2 celestial bodies", but then a lamp get in their final attack, and later on they say that the addition was weird and unwanted despite making the attack stronger. Now, what's exactly the source of the lamp? It's heavily implied to be Rouxls Kaard, given that he wears the lamp of the exact same shape of the one used in the attack, and Lanino and Elnina complained to have been literally touched from the "lamp", other than the fact that Lanino, Elnina and Rouxls used to be in a triple relationship (lol) and the former 2 calling him weird as well, strongly hinting that's him

You're in a bullet hell game; having an extra thing on screen automatically makes it harder to dodge, therefore, stronger.
And if you want to consider strength, even if the character is five times weaker, adding their strength to theirs would still be an increase.

It doesn't imply anything about them being relative (the other one does work, I think):

Base Spamton being scared of Jevil's scythe and straight up reffering to him as the "clown" which he described to want to surpass with the NEO body. Considering that Jevil's "games" include fights, and Spamton is scared of Jevil's scythes, which is something he actually uses in the fight, it's pretty clear that Jevil is superior to Spamton strength-wise, especially when Shadow Crystal holders like Jevil are considered to be especially powerful, and that to defeat them is no small feat, and Spamton has obtained it in the NEO body, implying further that he got on Jevil's level by only becoming NEO.

Although it seems a bit strange to say that when he achieved his Neo form, he was at a comparable level, when supposedly it makes him capable of surpassing it and therefore impossible for Jevil to scale to Neo Spamton

• Miss Mizzle, a Mini-Boss, has 28 ATK/DEF. She should defintely be at least comparable to Sound of Justice given that both are Mini-Bosses.

Not really, both are superior to the average Darkner in the zone, and that's it.
Nothing says they are comparable to each other

Though I can understand if the connection between Miss Mizzle and Sound of Justice is wonky, given that both are just "lol mini-bosses" as scaling basis. Because of this, I wouldn't mind making Miss Mizzle and company only "8-B, likely Low 7-C+", even if the latter gets fully accepted for ground waves.

I don't understand the commitment you're making there.

• Winglade (28 ATK) can fight alongside Bibliox (14 ATK) here.

If you want to assume that minibosses should scale to something just because they're minibosses, but then take a random character and scale them to miniboss... huh?
Furthermore, the "they're fighting together, so they should be comparable" argument is a bit... far-fetched.

• Balthizard (14 ATK), Mizzle (21 ATK) and Guei (20 ATK) can also fight together.

You can't scale Miss Mizzle to a level and have her weaker version scaling to the same thing.

• Tasque Manager (11 ATK) magaging to electrocute Rouxls Kaard despite him being able to aid Lanino and Elnina (22 and 21 ATK respectively)

As I said before, I see no reason to scale Rouxl Karl to Lanino and Elnina, so nothing (besides, electricity is usually a separate resistance, I don't think it can be scaled to AP)

I have mentioned before the fact that stats from 28 and 11 would be that level. But what about the rest?

For the reasons mentioned above, I think the idea of scaling them to minibosses based on their stats is strange, and I also doubt that Task Manager should be the minimum (in which case perhaps 14 ATK).
Aside from the point that... we're going to scale their DEF to resist being able to attacks, right? (I'm just guessing here, I haven't seen the verse profiles in a while)
that makes the use of stats less believable

Do you want more problems?
The stats of "Recruits" in Chapter 1 are sometimes different from those when usings check (which makes the stats a little less reliable overall. ).
And

• Hattry and Head Hattry (according to Head Hattry's description, this one is stronger than Hattry; they shouldn't have the same scaling) 5 to 6
• Maus and Mauswheel (logically, Mauswheel should be stronger) 8 to 10

You can't put everyone on the same level.

Well... We have this wonderful statement from Spamton NEO himself, saying that he's got "x3 the firepower" in his new body. For years we've always rejected it being a x3 stat increase from him, when the definition of firepower is the following:

• the capacity (as of a military unit) to deliver effective fire on a target / effective power or force
• the number and size of guns that a military group has available / the ability to destroy things using weapons
• the amount of fire that can be delivered by a particular weapon or military force / the amount of attacking strength that can be brought to bear against an opponent in a contest

Following this scaling model, we don't know the Base Spamton attack, so we can't really use it as a scaling basis for anything.


In summary, my opinion is:

• You can't scale Miss Mizzle to Sound of Justice.
• If you do, you can't scale Mizzle from Miss Mizzle.
• If you do, there's no reason to scale Task Manager to anyone.
• You can't have anyone scaling to Spamton, and if you do, even them you miss some Darkners without scaling.

I'm busy, I'll watch the part of the episode 4 later.

 

[Axorandom0]

Although it seems a bit strange to say that when he achieved his Neo form, he was at a comparable level, when supposedly it makes him capable of surpassing it and therefore impossible for Jevil to scale to Neo Spamton

He should likely still scale closer to NEO than base Spamton, leaving him as only being a vague amount weaker than NEO / slightly downscaling NEO

You can't scale Miss Mizzle to a level and have her weaker version scaling to the same thing.

You can, it just means you downscale to a certain degree under the higher amount.

• Hattry and Head Hattry (according to Head Hattry's description, this one is stronger than Hattry; they shouldn't have the same scaling) 5 to 6
• Maus and Mauswheel (logically, Mauswheel should be stronger) 8 to 10

If everyone had to be defined with exact stat values then yes, but actually no because we allow characters to be weaker than others while still being generally comparable enough to be in the same tier. It’s called downscaling.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Do you want more problems?
The stats of "Recruits" in Chapter 1 are sometimes different from those when usings check (which makes the stats a little less reliable overall. ).
And

• Hattry and Head Hattry (according to Head Hattry's description, this one is stronger than Hattry; they shouldn't have the same scaling) 5 to 6
• Maus and Mauswheel (logically, Mauswheel should be stronger) 8 to 10

You can't put everyone on the same level.

We know that the stats from Chapter 1 were retconned and we don't use them, after Chapter 1 it became consistent that only the Recruits' stats should be used, and Check in cases like the Titan

 

[Tots_Real]

I agree with everything but the 4-A thing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You're in a bullet hell game; having an extra thing on screen automatically makes it harder to dodge, therefore, stronger.
And if you want to consider strength, even if the character is five times weaker, adding their strength to theirs would still be an increase.

It doesn't imply anything about them being relative (the other one does work, I think)

Holy mental gymnastic here. Where the hell was it even hinted before in the game that strength can mean just the difficulty of the bullet pattern? This was never once hinted in Deltarune, or even Undertale (otherwise Sans is the strongest fr).

Although it seems a bit strange to say that when he achieved his Neo form, he was at a comparable level, when supposedly it makes him capable of surpassing it and therefore impossible for Jevil to scale to Neo Spamton

He was far weaker than Jevil in his base, but he surpassed him with NEO. However Jevil cannot be a complete fodder for SNEO for the other reason I've told.

Not really, both are superior to the average Darkner in the zone, and that's it.
Nothing says they are comparable to each other

Considering how Mini-Bosses usually are in this kind of games, yeah actually. The feats are also similar enough, so shrug.

You can't scale Miss Mizzle to a level and have her weaker version scaling to the same thing.

We do actually. And in plenty.

As I said before, I see no reason to scale Rouxl Karl to Lanino and Elnina, so nothing (besides, electricity is usually a separate resistance, I don't think it can be scaled to AP)

You see no reason to scale because of pure semantics and nitpicks. Plus electricity was never treated as a hax in UTDR, just an extension of one's power.

Do you want more problems?
The stats of "Recruits" in Chapter 1 are sometimes different from those when usings check (which makes the stats a little less reliable overall. ).
And

• Hattry and Head Hattry (according to Head Hattry's description, this one is stronger than Hattry; they shouldn't have the same scaling) 5 to 6
• Maus and Mauswheel (logically, Mauswheel should be stronger) 8 to 10

You can't put everyone on the same level.

The Check Stats are not used anymore since Chapter 1 besides Titan lol. I do think we can use Recruit Stats here given they're more constant and recent.

Following this scaling model, we don't know the Base Spamton attack, so we can't really use it as a scaling basis for anything.

Spamton literally said he's 3 times stronger thanks to the NEO body, that's literally a reverse multiplier.

Overall, yours are just nitpicks and mental gymnatics, no offense here. Stuff is just more simple than you make it be.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

You're in a bullet hell game; having an extra thing on screen automatically makes it harder to dodge, therefore, stronger.
And if you want to consider strength, even if the character is five times weaker, adding their strength to theirs would still be an increase.

What does this even mean bro

 

[Gooldiddy]

You're in a bullet hell game; having an extra thing on screen automatically makes it harder to dodge, therefore, stronger.
And if you want to consider strength, even if the character is five times weaker, adding their strength to theirs would still be an increase.

it's still comparable damage??? this is completely meaningless

 

[Sparkive]

He should likely still scale closer to NEO than base Spamton, leaving him as only being a vague amount weaker than NEO / slightly downscaling NEO

Likely, but not hard proof of a Downscale without the stat downscaling

You can, it just means you downscale to a certain degree under the higher amount

But Ctr is trying to make those from 11 to 28 scale to Sound of Justice (again, I don't see the reason for this last point) if 21 is clearly inferior, your "the 11 are relative to 28" is much harder to justify as it's only based on "they fight together"
And I don't see any downscaling among the various things explained in Op.

If everyone had to be defined with exact stat values then yes, but actually no because we allow characters to be weaker than others while still being generally comparable enough to be in the same tier. It’s called downscaling.

I know
But he is arbitrarily scaling to no stats those who have below a set stat (There's probably a reason, but I didn't see it in Op)

We know that the stats from Chapter 1 were retconned and we don't use them, after Chapter 1 it became consistent that only the Recruits' stats should be used, and Check in cases like the Titan

Fair

Holy mental gymnastic here. Where the hell was it even hinted before in the game that strength can mean just the difficulty of the bullet pattern?

I try to be logical? Anyway, even if you don't buy the bullets hell thing, I don't think it's necessary to be comparable to contribute... If I add 1 to 20, it becomes 21 regardless of how far it is from being comparable.

He was far weaker than Jevil in his base, but he surpassed him with NEO. However Jevil cannot be a complete fodder for SNEO for the other reason I've told.

especially when Shadow Crystal holders like Jevil are considered to be especially powerful, and that to defeat them is no small feat, and Spamton has obtained it in the NEO body, implying further that he got on Jevil's level by only becoming NEO.

Eh.... Maybe,
I mean, is clearly that he surpassed Jevil
I can see that Jevil is meant to be a strong darkner,
but I don't see the downscaling for Jevil
Gerson also had a Dark Crystal, but you can't deny that he's superior to Jevill and Spamton NEO (and completely not scalable for the two previous ones). In fact, if you talk to Seam after getting the first three Dark Crystals but before the fourth, he'll make it clear that the next enemy (Gerson) should be able to defeat us, but that somehow they'll manage it (like they did with Black Knight despite him also being superior to the heroes). The Dark Crystal is possessed by strong people, not necessarily at the same level.

Considering how Mini-Bosses usually are in this kind of games, yeah actually. The feats are also similar enough, so shrug.

Rude
Also, what feats? Miss Mizzle's calculation is Large Building level, while Silence of Justice is City block and Small Town (plus Silence of Justice has no stats).

Plus electricity was never treated as a hax in UTDR, just an extension of one's power.

Really? , fair then
Even so, I don't think Rouxls scales directly to the other two, so the overall point remains.

Spamton literally said he's 3 times stronger thanks to the NEO body, that's literally a reverse multiplier.

And why does it apply specifically to 11 and below? He don't have stats, so backscaling for these doesn't exist for the rest.

By the way, the Delta Héroes...
Don't they level up after each chapter, or am I mistaken? Is this canon? If so, wouldn't that mean there absolutely have to be a difference between the Darkners in each chapter?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Likely, but not hard proof of a Downscale without the stat downscaling

We don't know the stats of neither Spamton nor his NEO form, we simply use context and other statements to get information, simple. I don't get why you are viewing things in black and white like that when we simply use other sources of information and common sense to scale stuff.

But Ctr is trying to make those from 11 to 28 scale to Sound of Justice (again, I don't see the reason for this last point) if 21 is clearly inferior, your "the 11 are relative to 28" is much harder to justify as it's only based on "they fight together"
And I don't see any downscaling among the various things explained in Op.

We literally scale Sans (1 ATK) from Mettaton EX (47 ATK), yet this is where we draw the line apparently. Downscaling does indeed exist, stop pretending that it doesn't.

I try to be logical? Anyway, even if you don't buy the bullets hell thing, I don't think it's necessary to be comparable to contribute... If I add 1 to 20, it becomes 21 regardless of how far it is from being comparable.

The statement would be downright nonsensical if Rouxls isn't comparable to some degree. If somebody adds the power of an ant to a human it wouldn't be called "stronger" lol.

Plus did I forget to mention that Rouxls moves "too fast" for the couple when he used that laser pointer thing? For a game where speed and strength seem to be relative to each other, it's definitely evidence for Rouxls to not be completely fodder for the two.

Eh.... Maybe,
I mean, is clearly that he surpassed Jevil
I can see that Jevil is meant to be a strong darkner,
but I don't see the downscaling from Jevil
Gerson also had a Dark Crystal, but you can't deny that he's superior to Jevill and Spamton NEO (and completely not scalable for the two previous ones). In fact, if you talk to Seam after getting the first three Dark Crystals but before the fourth, he'll make it clear that the next enemy (Gerson) should be able to defeat us, but that somehow they'll manage it (like they did with Black Knight despite him also being superior to the heroes). The Dark Crystal is possessed by strong people, not necessarily at the same level.

You have completely missed my point.

Jevil is absolutely superior to base Spamton, the latter has PTSD so hard from that encounter to the point that one of the main reasons to get the NEO body is to become stronger than him specifically, and that does not include that by lore he is just a normal-ass Addison. Them both having the ShadowCrystal is just a point for them being comparable to each other (as they'd be both outscaling Rouxls Kaard and Tasque Manager, even if you take away the scaling from Weather Duo). You're looking at issues that simply aren't there.

And why does it apply specifically to 11 and below? He don't have stats, so backscaling for these doesn't exist for the rest.

Because people of that level are just common citizens like Spamton is, they're not regarded as particulairly strong unlike Tasque Manager of Mauswheel.

By the way, the Delta Héroes...
Don't they level up after each chapter, or am I mistaken? Is this canon? If so, wouldn't that mean there absolutely have to be a difference between the Darkners in each chapter?

They do, but the difference is not great enough to warrant a different key, for the same reason why the Batter from OFF has his version that goes from Zone 1 to Zone 3 in a single key, or why Pokémon protagonists don't have a Key for every Gym they fight against. We give keys only for significant jumps in power, and simple leveling up by itself is not a basis if they don't have feats backing up such a drastic boost.

 

[Pegasus124467]

Eh.... Maybe,
I mean, is clearly that he surpassed Jevil
I can see that Jevil is meant to be a strong darkner,
but I don't see the downscaling for Jevil
Gerson also had a Dark Crystal, but you can't deny that he's superior to Jevill and Spamton NEO (and completely not scalable for the two previous ones). In fact, if you talk to Seam after getting the first three Dark Crystals but before the fourth, he'll make it clear that the next enemy (Gerson) should be able to defeat us, but that somehow they'll manage it (like they did with Black Knight despite him also being superior to the heroes). The Dark Crystal is possessed by strong people, not necessarily at the same level.

Maybe the 3x multiplier could add in to this

If we're taking that literally, than base Spamton (who is inferior to Jevil) got 3x stronger which led him to surpass Jevil, the essentially Jevil would be somewhere in between 1-3x Spamton level, so you could say he's like 2x Base Spamton maybe, which makes NEO 1.5x stronger, and thus downscaling is fine because they're at least that relative

If you don't use that, which I think is fine really because 3x seems too little, the power boost shown in game appears to be Base Spamton slightly behind Kris to Fun Gang level entirely

Jevil was also able to contend with a weaker Fun Gang, although I doubt they were that much weaker to the point downscaling is irrelevant, so maybe he could scale to 1/2 NEO? I dunno, I'm not too much of a expert on downscaling, so that's a suggestion I suppose.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Maybe the 3x multiplier could add in to this

If we're taking that literally, than base Spamton (who is inferior to Jevil) got 3x stronger which led him to surpass Jevil, the essentially Jevil would be somewhere in between 1-3x Spamton level, so you could say he's like 2x Base Spamton maybe, which makes NEO 1.5x stronger, and thus downscaling is fine because they're at least that relative

If you don't use that, which I think is fine really because 3x seems too little, the power boost shown in game appears to be Base Spamton slightly behind Kris to Fun Gang level entirely

Jevil was also able to contend with a weaker Fun Gang, although I doubt they were that much weaker to the point downscaling is irrelevant, so maybe he could scale to 1/2 NEO? I dunno, I'm not too much of a expert on downscaling, so that's a suggestion I suppose.

Downscaling just makes the characters weaker to an unknown degree to the thing they scale to, we don't assume arbitrary multipliers for same reason why we don't jump tiers when upscaling.

Regardless it does not really matter here, the Jevil point is only to show that he's above Chapter 2 fodders, and both him and Spamton NEO are above Rouxls, who ultimately downscales from Tenna due to the Weather Duo scaling.

It's not like we use the Spamton NEO multiplier as a kind of upscaling metric, we instead use it to downscale the fodders of Chapter 1-2 because we know that Spamton NEO has to be at least above Rouxls and Tasque Manager.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, what feats? Miss Mizzle's calculation is Large Building level, while Silence of Justice is City block and Small Town (plus Silence of Justice has no stats).

Saw that you added it.

There's also Tenna's 8-B feat, and the end that's mostly likely getting accepted for SoJ is the 8-B one anyway (which is lower than Tenna's making the whole convo moot lol).

 

[LittleGuy99]

BUMP

 

[Edutyn]

Bump

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with Option 2 for Chapter 1-3 ("8-B, likely Low 7-C"), as well as the Lifting Strength and Speed upgrades. Also fine with 7-B Titans but neutral on 4-A.

@FinePoint @DarkDragonMedeus Could use some more input on this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Was notified about this days ago, but the OP looks good to me.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Was notified about this days ago, but the OP looks good to me.

Thanks for your attention.
What your opinion on:
1) Possibly 4-A Titan
2) What option to choose in regard to SoJ feat
3) Class G and FTL for everyone
Or you didn't analyse all of it yet?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What option to choose in regard to SoJ feat

I'll remind you that neither DDM nor Maverick are CGMs, so they can't really choose which end to use, but I could be wrong.

Agree with Option 2 for Chapter 1-3 ("8-B, likely Low 7-C")

Could you call in CGMs for the 8-B/Low 7-C thing please? I tried to call in @Therefir but they didn't really answer lol.

Was notified about this days ago, but the OP looks good to me.

Yeah, as asked from Qurbon, what are your thoughts on 4-A specifically?

 

[Hypercyber37]

This sh*t is so peak
AGREE AGREE AGREE

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Could you call in CGMs for the 8-B/Low 7-C thing please?

@Therefir @Psychomaster35 @Drite77 @TheRustyOne

 

[Drite77]

Ello, I just woke up, givve a min to read this thread

 

[Drite77]

I read the feat and the OP for a while, I don't think those are ground wave so count me only for Option 1

 

[Psychomaster35]

@Therefir @Psychomaster35 @Drite77 @TheRustyOne

Like I said, I was agreeing with just solid 8-B and not Low 7-C.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now that 8-B seems to be the the accepted end, I wonder if a jump to 8-B+ is gonna get used, based on the gap being pretty small (48.93 Tons of Tenna's feat vs 55.5 of 8-B+, which is a gap of x1.13), for the following:

• Spamton NEO's Durability during Bluelight Specil: When he uses the "Bluelight Specil", his Attack is noted to drop while his Defense notably increases, to the point that if before Kris' attacks dealt 178 damage, now they deal a measly 10 even if the damage was at the maximum output, and the narrator constantly tells in this phase that "Spamton NEO's DEFENSE is towering". To support the switch between his Attack and Defense, his own damage output gets reduced from 47 to just 10 as well.
• Noelle's IceShock and Snowgrave: While physically she can harm and choke Berdly (who should scale to Tenna's 48.93 Tons due to him being a Lightner), her IceShock is far stronger than said physical attacks, to the point of freezing enemies in a single attack or even to instantly kill Spamton NEO despite he was using the Bluelight Specil. Her Snowgrave spell is the strongest one of her arsenal, with its description being a simple "fatal" and it's the only attack dealing damage in thousands in the game at that point in the story.

Like I said, I was agreeing with just solid 8-B and not Low 7-C.

I read the feat and the OP for a while, I don't think those are ground wave so count me only for Option 1

@Therefir @Psychomaster35 @Drite77 @TheRustyOne

Would these being 8-B+ fine, given the superiority these attacks have to the regular stats of the 2 characters I've mentioned?

 

[Drite77]

I'm at work, will check once I'm home

 

[Psychomaster35]

Would these being 8-B+ fine, given the superiority these attacks have to the regular stats of the 2 characters I've mentioned?

Yeah, I'm fine with Spamton NEO'S Bluelight Specil durability and Noelle's Iceshock/Snowgrave getting the +. The gap is pretty close, after all.

 

[Ti58]

Now that 8-B seems to be the the accepted end, I wonder if a jump to 8-B+ is gonna get used, based on the gap being pretty small (48.93 Tons of Tenna's feat vs 55.5 of 8-B+, which is a gap of x1.13), for the following:

• Spamton NEO's Durability during Bluelight Specil: When he uses the "Bluelight Specil", his Attack is noted to drop while his Defense notably increases, to the point that if before Kris' attacks dealt 178 damage, now they deal a measly 10 even if the damage was at the maximum output, and the narrator constantly tells in this phase that "Spamton NEO's DEFENSE is towering". To support the switch between his Attack and Defense, his own damage output gets reduced from 47 to just 10 as well.
• Noelle's IceShock and Snowgrave: While physically she can harm and choke Berdly (who should scale to Tenna's 48.93 Tons due to him being a Lightner), her IceShock is far stronger than said physical attacks, to the point of freezing enemies in a single attack or even to instantly kill Spamton NEO despite he was using the Bluelight Specil. Her Snowgrave spell is the strongest one of her arsenal, with its description being a simple "fatal" and it's the only attack dealing damage in thousands in the game at that point in the story.

Would these being 8-B+ fine, given the superiority these attacks have to the regular stats of the 2 characters I've mentioned?

What about Red buster btw?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Noelle's IceShock and Snowgrave: While physically she can harm and choke Berdly (who should scale to Tenna's 48.93 Tons due to him being a Lightner), her IceShock is far stronger than said physical attacks, to the point of freezing enemies in a single attack or even to instantly kill Spamton NEO despite he was using the Bluelight Specil. Her Snowgrave spell is the strongest one of her arsenal, with its description being a simple "fatal" and it's the only attack dealing damage in thousands in the game at that point in the story.

Do have to take into account that IceShock ignores defense.

 

[Drite77]

Spamton NEO's Durability during Bluelight Specil

I think the assumptions to 8-B+ work for me in this case

Noelle's IceShock and Snowgrave

While I don't mind this being 8-B+, some of the arguments here aren't exaclty ones I would use.

While physically she can harm and choke Berdly

If the guy can take 670 damage, then I wouldn't say 22 would be exactly "harmed", the choking also feels like a comedy bit to me, and one could just attribute it to LS

to the point of freezing enemies in a single attack

That's hax, not AP

even to instantly kill Spamton NEO despite he was using the Bluelight Specil

From my understanding, Spamton NEO was already damaged, so "one-shotting" is misleading to me. Granted, the fact she majorly damaged Spamton NEO would warrant her a 8-B+ rating, but I wouldn't use the term "one-shotting", and to add to that

Her Snowgrave spell is the strongest one of her arsenal, with its description being a simple "fatal" and it's the only attack dealing damage in thousands in the game at that point in the story.

The video itself seems to imply she used Snowgrave, and not the other spell

 

[Drite77]

Do have to take into account that IceShock ignores defense.

... If IceShock ignores defense then it wouldn't be 8-B+, just Dura Neg.

With that in mind, I would say IceShock isn't 8-B+, but Snowgrave might be since it can hurt Spamton NEO

 

[XxZetsuxX]

all this just to get solo'ed by Sans undertale

Agree

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

... If IceShock ignores defense then it wouldn't be 8-B+, just Dura Neg.

With that in mind, I would say IceShock isn't 8-B+, but Snowgrave might be since it can hurt Spamton NEO

That was my intention, yes.

She definitely didn't kill him with a Snowgrave, the cast time and sound effect is 1-to-1 with IceShock.
Snowgrave still one-shots Berdly though. That's probably enough.

 

[StrymULTRA]

What about Red buster btw?

It never one shots stuff.

 

[SnakesCity]

While physically she can harm and choke Berdly

Should be noted Noelle is not actually choking Berdly, if you closely look at the sprite you can see she's just shaking him by his shirt/chestplate thing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Back on this, forgot.

From my understanding, Spamton NEO was already damaged, so "one-shotting" is misleading to me. Granted, the fact she majorly damaged Spamton NEO would warrant her a 8-B+ rating, but I wouldn't use the term "one-shotting", and to add to that

I mean it still dealt far more damage than Kris could do there.

But yeah she did not use Snowgrave but IceShock, the sound effect was the same, Snowgrave's sound effect is far, far longer.

... If IceShock ignores defense then it wouldn't be 8-B+, just Dura Neg.

Tbh rn she has a "higher with IceShock" and has the choke thing in her profile though, I was mostly basing on this.

Though some stuff on the profiles is just wrong, Kris and Susie have still a "likely" for the Tier 7 off Fountain Creation when they straight up do so in Ch 3-4 lol.

 

[Sparkive]

I'm back after a while
I may have forgotten things over time and it seems you're nearing a conclusion, so if it's in the way, you can simply ignore the message.

We literally scale Sans (1 ATK) from Mettaton EX (47 ATK), yet this is where we draw the line apparently. Downscaling does indeed exist, stop pretending that it doesn't.

I haven't been paying attention to Undertale's scaling, stop acting like I'm deliberately ignoring something, also... how !
Downscaling can exist, but in your best-case scenario, there's probably a scaling chain (Mizzle must be lower than Miss Mizzle, and then, everbody lowert than Mizzle will likely downscale her).

The statement would be downright nonsensical if Rouxls isn't comparable to some degree. If somebody adds the power of an ant to a human it wouldn't be called "stronger" lol.

Not really, not necessarily

Plus did I forget to mention that Rouxls moves "too fast" for the couple when he used that laser pointer thing? For a game where speed and strength seem to be relative to each other, it's definitely evidence for Rouxls to not be completely fodder for the two.

Um...
It just says there are faster and stronger people, it doesn't imply they're related. (For example, Tenna's screen-splitting feat is faster than we can see or see the heart move.)
Although I'll leave it at that, to be fair, we haven't had a proper fight with Rouxl yet, but even though it's just my guess, he's probably really powerful.

You have completely missed my point.

Jevil is absolutely superior to base Spamton, the latter has PTSD so hard from that encounter to the point that one of the main reasons to get the NEO body is to become stronger than him specifically, and that does not include that by lore he is just a normal-ass Addison. Them both having the ShadowCrystal is just a point for them being comparable to each other (as they'd be both outscaling Rouxls Kaard and Tasque Manager, even if you take away the scaling from Weather Duo). You're looking at issues that simply aren't there.

I think you're missing my point.
They're probably stronger than those two, yeah... but that doesn't automatically make them comparable. They'll probably end up scaling to almost the same level, but the reason can't be that having the Dark Crystal means they must be at a similar level when Gerson exists to prove otherwise (almost untouchable for a Lightner, literally returning one of its strongest attacks and suffering no real damage when it finally hits, and fast enough to remove its items without it noticing, besides almost destroying the Titan's protection by itself)
Perhaps you can scale the Dark Crystal wielders above normal Darkners (just remove any downscaling between Jevil and Neo Spamton, seriously)

Because people of that level are just common citizens like Spamton is, they're not regarded as particulairly strong unlike Tasque Manager of Mauswheel.

That's... actually fair, my only problem is that it would make him stronger than "K. Round" who is clearly above the average citizen (but meh)

Saw that you added it.

There's also Tenna's 8-B feat, and the end that's mostly likely getting accepted for SoJ is the 8-B one anyway (which is lower than Tenna's making the whole convo moot lol).

And she scale to Tenna?
If so, go ahead
By the way, I was looking at the calculation, and personally, that seems much more than 145 degrees to me (which would buff the feat).