Graham (MGK) vs Dracula (Castlevania)

[ThienDe01]

because both can't resist each other's haxes

Dracula not being able to withstand Anos's hax is true, but does Dracula have CM to interact with Anos's source?

Dracs plot stuff is writing cruel endings

Is this like imposing a cruel future on Anos that causes Anos to lose due to the plot by editing?

 

[Ang4I00]

From this thread, Plot hax can’t affect other metaphysical aspects by default, so regarding all of the aspects that Anos’s Layered NEP 2 covers, Dracula can only affect plot since he can’t even affect NEP 2.

I am unsure what Dracula's plot manipulation is capable of but assuming it can erase him, Anos can still survive, think and cast magic as a source (concept).

Dracula's plot hax works by passively overwriting the narrative to ensure his victory and it destabilizes powers, so Anos would need to overcome that.

 

[Vietthai96]

I don't understand why people keep talking about plot can't affect other metaphysical aspects by default, you don't need to interact them to win a fight, there are many ways to win a fight. Like, the plot hax users can just manipulate the plot of the fight to make them win or their opponent lose the fight, what metaphysical aspects gonna help in this case?

 

[ThienDe01]

Slightly disadvantageous for Anos because this match is balanced by infinite speed according to Dracula. But after learning about passive hax and reading this article, I see that speed infinite still allows Anos to attack Dracula before Dracula can use his passive plot hax.
And I wonder if Dracula can withstand Anos's magical power?

Spoiler: Anos's magical power is hax always active

Anos has AP 2A because Anos Voldigoad's magical power is "Destruction", it always flows out from Anos' Source to destroy the World.

Magic was something that constantly seeped from the source. Using a spell to erase that—not just hide it—was completely unheard of. Such a task would be more difficult the more powerful the caster was.
-Volume 4 Chap 51

Magic circles appeared in her eyes—her Magic Eyes of Creation. A fake Delsgade had probably formed in the sky overhead.

“Perhaps so, but you should refrain from doing so.” “Why?”

“Destruction constantly seeps from my source, seeking to destroy the world.

Your Magic Eyes of Creation may be able to alter my source into a more desirable state, but the burden on your own source will be greater as a result. You’d be taking on my exhaustion in my place.”
-Volume 7 Chap 12

He released his sword and raised a trembling fist, gathering magic around it. “The closer you get to destruction,” Diedrich continued, “the more powerful your source will grow to overcome it. But at that moment, your magic becomes so powerful, your existence itself is enough to destroy this world...”

Amid its approaching destruction, my distorted source was further corrupted when impaled by Kandaquizorte and its restrictions.

“It is near impossible to control that destruction. Of course, the almighty Demon King can make anything happen, but what if the powers of the Goddess of the Future restrict that from happening?” Diedrich asked.

Diedrich had given up restricting any of the Jio Graze, Zola e Dypt, Vebzud, and Ji Noavus attacking him in favor of using the Goddess of the Future’s order to throw my source into disarray.

“In order to stop yourself from harming this world,” Diedrich concluded, “you will turn that overflowing power of destruction onto yourself.”

He knew the truth of my destructive source: I constantly, constantly suppressed its power.

An immense number of black particles, masses of unrealized, uncast pure magic, overflowed from my out-of-control source. They glowed, a dark black that promised to swallow the whole world in darkness.

The black particles rose to the ceiling and covered the entire room. As Diedrich predicted, at once I tried to force down the power and shut it within me as much as I could.

“Kuh,” I grunted.

My source, now on a rampage, began to lead me to my own destruction.

“If you were willing to harm this world in order to win this battle, we would have had no chance of victory. This is the only victorious future Naphta and I saw with our Divine Eyes,” Diedrich said, wrapping Nojiaz around his fist.

The magic-consuming spell would bring my source one step closer to destruction.

“Sleep for a bit, Demon King. Once the world is saved, it’ll be your turn.”

Dull-colored phosphorescence glimmered as Diedrich raised his Nojiaz. I was too focused on stopping my source from running out of control to counterattack. The destructive magic within me threatening to burst out of control was far stronger than Diedrich’s fists or Kandaquizorte’s spear.
-Volume 7 Chap 36

Death Manipulation, Fear Manipulation, Paralysis Inducement: Anos's magical powers include death manipulation, fear manipulation, and paralysis.

It was at that moment that the bell rang. Emilia opened the door and stepped inside, followed by a man wearing formal robes and a cap. Perhaps “man” is a little misleading. He was a skeleton. I did recall that one of the seven subordinates I’d created was undead—he must have chosen the name Ivis Necron.

Those with the title Demon Elder must hold considerable power and status in this era. The normally noisy students fell silent the instant Ivis appeared.

Wait. No, this silence was due to the magic he emitted. The overwhelming difference in power between him and the students had them cowering in fright without realizing it.

My own magic should have had a similar effect, but the demons of this era were just too weak to recognize it. Instead of them feeling fear, their senses were completely numbed to my power—they couldn’t feel anything at all. Well, if they could detect my magic, they would probably drop dead on the spot. That tended to happen to creatures with such low magic resistance. Perhaps this was a survival instinct?
-Volume 1 Chap 17

Invulnerability Negation, Physics Manipulation, Existence Erasure, Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Information Manipulation (Type 2), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Immortality Negation (Types 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 & 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly), Nonexistent Erasure: The Destruction flowing from Anos's source causes other sources to be instantly destroyed upon contact, including Graham's source, Spirit's source and Jerga's source - which has become a world order.

“I created a support source that can assume finer control of the magic.”

Misha’s gaze stroked my abyss, bringing the support source closer to my source. As its name implied, it was a source that worked to assist my magic in canceling out smaller amounts of power. It could add or subtract small amounts of magic, and it could block leaks from happening. But as Eleonore had said, the support source was placed such that it was constantly exposed to my source of destruction. Inevitably, it would be erased.

Hopefully, I’d be able to control this power before that happened.''
-Volume 9 Chap 6

The source of destruction was beating wildly, forcing my heart to tremble with intense, heavy throbs. Taking in Graham’s source of nihility meant the source could fully demonstrate its true worth. Not even nothingness could escape destruction.

Though the depths of my source contained a destruction that far outmatched Graham’s, his nihility was powerful enough to withstand Egil Grone Angdroa. And that power was now rampaging within my source, fighting against a destruction that could devastate the world several times over in order to reduce everything to nothing. If Graham’s source of nihility ever escaped from me, the world would be fatally wounded.
-Volume 8 Chap 47

 

[Saucy_Jackistan24]

Lol, it's the opposite as Viet already explained.
LoS Drac doesn't scale to Mainline Drac's stuff such as his passives and castle passives.

Was already clarified, but thanks again

The thread and the conclusion simply states case by case for each verse as there is no default superiority of one aspect over another. Because in one verse a metaphysical aspect order can be different from another.
So if you go by this thread and assume no order it would still be an incon because both can't resist each other's haxes or the supporters discuss and try to reach a consensus on which power can or cannot affect each other you know.

You are correct here about no aspect holding superiority over the other since that’s exactly what vector’s arguing, plot hax can’t affect concepts by default and vice-versa and allat, the difference here is that in this thread, Dracula cannot affect the very thing Anos relies on to act, which is his concept because Layered NEP 2 prevents him from doing so, so even if Dracula does something to Anos’s plot aspect, Anos can remain as a source and still do stuff from there

Not to mention, Anos should be capable of erasing every aspect of Dracula’s besides plot

I don't understand why people keep talking about plot can't affect other metaphysical aspects by default, you don't need to interact them to win a fight, there are many ways to win a fight. Like, the plot hax users can just manipulate the plot of the fight to make them win or their opponent lose the fight, what metaphysical aspects gonna help in this case?

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if the guy can’t affect Anos’s source then he won’t be able to stop his source from rampaging. Since he can't directly interact with the source then binding it to not being able to use its power should also not be possible, so what he can do is go around with other ways that will resist the source trying to destroy him (which will be futile because again, CM1 & Info2 destruction knocking on yo door).

Since it is already established that Anos can act by his source alone like how vector showed us:

I am unsure what Dracula's plot manipulation is capable of but assuming it can erase him, Anos can still survive, think and cast magic as a source (concept). One such example:

It's also accepted in his profile.
Limited Abstract Existence (Type 1. An excellent magician can keep their memories in their source, which is the fundamental concept of existence that exists deeper than the body, soul and mind, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived. In other words, they can "think" and utilise powers with only their source[18][19])

We come to a possible scenario on how the fight may progress.

Dracula on the first chance (as his stuff is passive) by default would bypass Anos' resistances and reduces him to being just a source due to the layers he has on his thing, but that's where the clutch will come.

Dracula by himself wouldn't be aware of the fact that Anos can simply exist as the source and cast spells (unless he has some ability to know about this) and would think that only killing Anos' body is enough to put Anos down for good.

But then, Anos as a source will begin to release a 2-A DC worth of magic from his source, losing control and therefore outright nuking everything around him alongside Dracula. He will be releasing the full extent of his DC since in this context he doesn't have any plot points to hold back his powers consciously. (refer to the post above mine that ThienDe01 posted).

And after all is said and done, Anos would regenerate back while dracula can't cause no HGR.

(And ofc, Anos' destruction also includes destroying concepts, information, etc. hence why Dracula ain’t coming back)

 

[Vietthai96]

The reason I think it’s relevant is because if the guy can’t affect Anos’s source then he won’t be able to stop his source from rampaging. Since he can't directly interact with the source then binding it to not being able to use its power should also not be possible, so what he can do is go around with other ways that will resist the source trying to destroy him (which will be futile because again, CM1 & Info2 destruction knocking on yo door).

Since it is already established that Anos can act by his source alone like how vector showed us:

The thing is, Plot users don't need to interact with his source; they can just rewrite the narration of the fight itself to make them win the fight, or simply make Anos lose. They don't need to interact with his source, or erase him. Why do people always think that characters need to strictly interact with the opponents to win the fight?. They could win via different methods

 

[Tanin_iver]

Slightly disadvantageous for Anos because this match is balanced by infinite speed according to Dracula. But after learning about passive hax and reading this article,

Opens this so called article, is a Q&A thread, everyone has a different opinion and there is no consensus even among the staff. Bruh.

I see that speed infinite still allows Anos to attack Dracula before Dracula can use his passive plot hax.

Did you even read what you wrote just before, both are equalised to infinite in this battle. The original question in the thread was for a FTL guy with passives vs infinite, while here both are infinite for the purpose of discussion, and Dracula's hax is active from the beginning, it doesn't needs activation.

And I wonder if Dracula can withstand Anos's magical power?

Doesn't have to if Anos can't get past his plot hax first as it's already active.

Was already clarified, but thanks again

You are correct here about no aspect holding superiority over the other since that’s exactly what vector’s arguing, plot hax can’t affect concepts by default and vice-versa and allat, the difference here is that in this thread, Dracula cannot affect the very thing Anos relies on to act, which is his concept because Layered NEP 2 prevents him from doing so, so even if Dracula does something to Anos’s plot aspect, Anos can remain as a source and still do stuff from there

Not to mention, Anos should be capable of erasing every aspect of Dracula’s besides plot


The reason I think it’s relevant is because if the guy can’t affect Anos’s source then he won’t be able to stop his source from rampaging. Since he can't directly interact with the source then binding it to not being able to use its power should also not be possible, so what he can do is go around with other ways that will resist the source trying to destroy him (which will be futile because again, CM1 & Info2 destruction knocking on yo door).

Since it is already established that Anos can act by his source alone like how vector showed us:


We come to a possible scenario on how the fight may progress.

Dracula on the first chance (as his stuff is passive) by default would bypass Anos' resistances and reduces him to being just a source due to the layers he has on his shi, but that's where the clutch will come.

Dracula by himself wouldn't be aware of the fact that Anos can simply exist as the source and cast spells (unless he has some ability to know about this) and would think that only killing Anos' body is enough to put Anos down for good.

But then, Anos as a source will begin to release a 2-A DC worth of magic from his source, losing control and therefore outright nuking everything around him alongside Dracula. He will be releasing the full extent of his DC since in this context he doesn't have any plot points to hold back his powers consciously. (refer to the post above mine that ThienDe01 posted).

And after all is said and done, Anos would regenerate back while dracula can't cause no HGR.

(And ofc, Anos' destruction also includes destroying concepts, information, etc. hence why Dracula ain’t coming back)

Blah, blah, blah blah .... that's a lot of yap and abbreviations, sauce this, concept and info that, NEP this, layers that, 2-A blah blah.
Come back when Anos can resist his mom treating him like an adult, Lay breaking up with him and turning Kanon on him again, and instead of a love arrow on his heart it's Evansmana this time around, his whole Harem abandoning him for the Dark Lord and cucking him in front of his eyes.
How will his made the duck up cardinal layers of NEP help against the above, can you come again?

You guys need to loosen up a bit and taking stuff way too seriously. You sound like bots rather than human. All those abbreviations, and no fun discussion whatsoever.

 

[Embers_of_Twilight]

and instead of a love arrow on his heart it's Evansmana this time around

Ahahahahaha ! Genius
The story of Mishence's necklace was about these two dudes i swear.

 

[Tatsumi504]

The thing is, Plot users don't need to interact with his source; they can just rewrite the narration of the fight itself to make them win the fight, or simply make Anos lose. They don't need to interact with his source, or erase him. Why do people always think that characters need to strictly interact with the opponents to win the fight?. They could win via different methods

Except that "make the opponent lose" is extremely open to interpretation and broad. I remember that there was a thread about stuff like this that says powers like fate, cm, law etc need to be clarified on exactly what it is they do or it's NLF or something.

Are you proposing that they don't necessarily need to fight? They settle it over some competition or something?

 

[Reiner04]

Blah, blah, blah blah .... that's a lot of yap and abbreviations, sauce this, concept and info that, NEP this, layers that, 2-A blah blah.
Come back when Anos can resist his mom treating him like an adult, Lay breaking up with him and turning Kanon on him again, and instead of a love arrow on his heart it's Evansmana this time around, his whole Harem abandoning him for the Dark Lord and cucking him in front of his eyes.

Damn I wouldn't have let it slide if i was Anus wanker

 

[Tatsumi504]

Also, stop using this mf for vs matches

 

[Saucy_Jackistan24]

The thing is, Plot users don't need to interact with his source; they can just rewrite the narration of the fight itself to make them win the fight, or simply make Anos lose. They don't need to interact with his source, or erase him. Why do people always think that characters need to strictly interact with the opponents to win the fight?. They could win via different methods

But it simply doesn't work like that
"Writing a narrative where he wins" doesn't answer how Dracula will do it, it's vague.

Whatever he does will have to have an effect on Anos to win, for which I put forward a scenario where Anos doesn't have to worry about his resistances as he would constantly release his destructive power from his source since the beginning and nuke Dracula alongside everything.

Writing a narrative itself means writing a scenario on how he will do something, for which I have given you a possible scenario on how it will proceed.

I will ask you to not overlook all this and simply keep going on about how “people don't understand plot manipulation”

How will his made the duck up cardinal layers of NEP help against the above, can you come again?

You guys need to loosen up a bit and taking stuff way too seriously. You sound like bots rather than human. All those abbreviations, and no fun discussion whatsoever.

Funny considering you think a character getting passively plot-haxed and that being your only argument is somehow fun to discuss

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Also, stop using this mf for vs matches

ON GOD

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Can we get someone ELSE aside from Anos for vs matches, PLEASE???

 

[Robo432343]

Change it to graham

 

[Vietthai96]

Except that "make the opponent lose" is extremely open to interpretation and broad. I remember that there was a thread about stuff like this that says powers like fate, cm, law etc need to be clarified on exactly what it is they do or it's NLF or something.

Are you proposing that they don't necessarily need to fight? They settle it over some competition or something?

It is only an issue when
1. Character A have X Manipulation but didn't even show the effect of said Manipulation
2. Character A have X Manipulation and you claims that A can use all application of said Manipulation despite never show

Change it to graham

 

[Vietthai96]

But it simply doesn't work like that
"Writing a narrative where he wins" doesn't answer how Dracula will do it, it's vague.

??, vague??,

Whatever he does will have to have an effect on Anos to win, for which I put forward a scenario where Anos doesn't have to worry about his resistances as he would constantly release his destructive power from his source since the beginning and nuke Dracula alongside everything

??. If he didn't have resistances then he can't do anything, simple, we debate the match based on what characters do, and Anos never release destructive power from his source as a passive effect

Speed is equal and only Venuz have immeasurable speed, he need to worry about Dracula passive haxes first

Writing a narrative itself means writing a scenario on how he will do something, for which I have given you a possible scenario on how it will proceed.

?. I'm completely don't understand what are you trying to say here, what i said is Dracula can use his plot hax to rewrite the narrative of the fight itself to make him win, based on what his profile said

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Change it to graham

NOT THEM EITHER

Why are we being so basic as if there's no actually filled mgk profiles unlike before the deletion

 

[Vietthai96]

Use Lay or Shin

Anyway, should not make match with Castlevania either, from the look of it, the verse look like a mess

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Use Lay or Shin

Like for the love of god I'm tired of seeing Anos or Graham threads should be having shin or even misha threads by now

 

[Robo432343]

Anyway unless someone can show dracula actually using plot hax on someone in combat he should just go down to 8th spot

 

[ThienDe01]

Anyway unless someone can show dracula actually using plot hax on someone in combat he should just go down to 8th spot

I think this match should be 2vs2, because in the list, both verses have 2 members.

 

[ThienDe01]

and Anos never release destructive power from his source as a passive effect

Anos's magical power is always at work, aiming to destroy the world; it even spontaneously unleashes itself despite Anos's attempts to restrain it.

Spoiler: Volume 10 Chap 2

“Order was disturbed by you coming to the Firmament of the Gods. It is possible to surmise that the mere existence of the Misfit with the source of destruction is enough to affect our order. Especially as your power increased after your battle with the other Misfit, Graham.”

“So you mean to say I’m no longer able to suppress my power?”

“Nay. In my humble opinion, you have never been able to suppress your power to begin with. It was never the type of power that could be suppressed, if I may add.”

“Oh?”

Anos restrained his power because he didn't want to destroy the world where his family, friends, and followers lived.

Spoiler: Volume 10 Chap 55

Equis grabbed my body and shoved me back against the wheel. Magic particles went flying, and fresh blood of the Demon King sprayed and splattered into the air. The source of destruction within me began to rampage out of my control and flow out into the world.

I clenched my teeth against the pain, putting everything I had into trying to contain the source of destruction.

“What’s wrong, misfit?” Equis asked. “If you release your power, you can easily send Boros Hetheus flying away.”

“Along with the rest of the world.”

Equis’s cogs turned with a mocking creak. “Keep protecting what you know cannot be protected. The world, your comrades, this peace. Contaminant of the world, you have made the wrong choice. You should have come here alone, and left peace behind you.”

The wheel kept its rapid spin as it ground against my source, black fireworks sparking as it carved a gouge into me. At any moment, the power of destruction threatened to leak from my body and irreparably wound the world. I used my own body and source to shoulder the damage, worsening my own condition. One drop of the sinister blood slipped from my control and fell onto the ground. The ground instantly rotted, crumbling into black ash.

When Anos fought in the sacred realms of Abernyu and Militia, he did not hesitate to use his power.

Spoiler: Volume 10 Chap 56

“Come on, we rarely get a playground like this.” With a flick of my fingers, I leisurely drew a magic circle—another Egil Grone Angdroa. “Let’s go all out.”

More apocalyptic flames fired, one blast after another, all aimed at Equis’s body. They took one look at the seven-layered destruction magic before disappearing.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

?. I'm completely don't understand what are you trying to say here, what i said is Dracula can use his plot hax to rewrite the narrative of the fight itself to make him win, based on what his profile said

This seems similar to what Equis does? Correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t this equalize similar abilities? Equis also rewrote the world’s rules and fixed a single ending for Anos—not through plot manipulation, but through a concept/fate/law combination based on the Order of the verse. Since DT says that if both powers are similar they should interact on equal terms, wouldn’t that apply here too? Anos’s eyes can rewrite that event by violating its underlying logic. If a single predetermined outcome is forced on him, he can destroy it.

Maou a event itself can be manipulated by Order while Castlevania it's done by plot. Shouldn't this specific stuff can be equalized?

Metaphysical Equalization
As we can not list every possible kind of metaphysical aspect that may appear in fiction, not listed things like names, Dao, essence or ether are usually sorted into the existing abilities by judging what seems most similar to the ability even if it is not an exact equivalence. At the same time do different fictions at times call very similar ideas by different names, such that what is called concept in one fiction might end up being almost the same as what is called information in another.
As such it is at times reasonable to not hang on to the rigid classifications of our power and ability pages in vs-debates and allow for a more case-by-case comparison.
E.g. If in one fiction names are considered the essence of being and classified as concept manipulation and in another fiction names are also considered as fundamental part of existence, but classified as information manipulation instead as the explanation used digital metaphors, it would be possible to still equalize names in both verses to be the same metaphysical aspect, despite their classification.

DT in Plot manipulation thread which is already accepted as a standard.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Shouldn't this specific stuff can be equalized?

Unless Dracula is also using some kind of combination of concept/fate/law/causality + plot (in a way that will be more fundemental all other aspects), then I think they should be equated. Otherwise, that standard would have no meaning.

 

[Vietthai96]

This seems similar to what Equis does? Correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t this equalize similar abilities? Equis also rewrote the world’s rules and fixed a single ending for Anos—not through plot manipulation, but through a concept/fate/law combination based on the Order of the verse. Since DT says that if both powers are similar they should interact on equal terms, wouldn’t that apply here too? Anos’s eyes can rewrite that event by violating its underlying logic. If a single predetermined outcome is forced on him, he can destroy it.

Maou a event itself can be manipulated by Order while Castlevania it's done by plot. Shouldn't this specific stuff can be equalized?

DT in Plot manipulation thread which is already accepted as a standard.

No, We don't equalize things like this, or you are practically giving verses with less abilities advantage in a fight by equalizing almost everything. The equalize things here is, you are making abilities cross-verse be able to interact with each other so the fight can happen. For example verse A have Dao, verse B have Essence power. By equalizing them we allows these two powers interact with each other

 

[Tatsumi504]

Just close this and stop using Anos for vs matches. There are many problems with match ups such as this one.

For one, everyone keeps treating plot manipulation as some be all end all ignoring the fact that the user doesn't resist the haxes of the other party. Against the fate induced by Beltexfemblem, the magic eyes of mayhem neither destroyed Beltexfemblem nor fate but the reason/logic behind it. Fate wasn't imposed on Anos himself but the Demon King's Garden in which if he were to take any action, that world would be destroyed. While on this topic, we do not correlate the resistance of one application of an ability to the the resistance to all applications of it so unless Dracula and his haxes have shown resistance to the violation of their underlying logic, his law manipulation resistance doesn't cover it. In the same vein, X effect/ability achieved through y manipulation doesn't require resistance to y to resist x according to a thread that had staff like Agnaa and DT present so Anos doesn't necessarily need to resist plot manipulation here which is why it's imperative for us to know exactly what Dracula would do with his plot manipulation.

Speed wise, even with speed equal, Anos can still go up to immeasurable speed given that he didn't show his full speed even against Equis because he can destroy the world simply by moving that fast. Furthermore, MEoCD just doesn't care about speed at all neither does it need to interact with a narrative to stop Dracula.

Just close the thread already

 

[Robo432343]

I need more confirmation that Anos stomps so we can close this thread and update the list already

 

[Vietthai96]

 

[Tatsumi504]

No one cares about the list cause this thread definitely isn't gonna reach a consensus on who stomps without being FRA trained

 

[Robo432343]

Don’t worry about FRA trains because this match is not getting added either way due to it being a stomp
We just have to decide who stomps who

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

My vote is to just close this already.

 

[ThienDe01]

I reread the comments and found that Dracula's plot haxing ability ensures he always wins and his opponents face terrible consequences; it's like altering the story to impose an unfavorable future/event on the opponent. This is similar to Naphta's ability to limit his opponents' future, or Eques's ability to impose destiny/events on the world, and Anos is not afraid of these things.

Spoiler

With her abilities from the Future Order, Naphta has the power to limit the future, as she did when she caused Anos to be stabbed by the spear even though Anos had managed to grab it.

Spoiler: Volume 6 Chap 18

With both eyes closed, Naphta filled her crystal ball with magic. “Sinner who stands before the Goddess of the Future, you will now be judged by Kandaquizorte, the Future World Crystal.”

The ball floated out of Naphta’s hands and distorted in shape, transforming into a spear.

“Your future has been decided. You have been sentenced to impalement,” she pronounced like a judge.

“Interesting. Just try it.”

The Goddess of the Future held her hands out before her. Divine magic flowed into the surrounding area, shaking the cathedral. The crystal spear turned towards me and shot forward faster than the eye could see. I turned my head to avoid it, but the spear turned at the same time, following my face.

“Hmm. So read the future?”

The spear came to a stop right before my nose. I had grabbed the shaft. “I can restrict the future. You will be unable to grasp the spear.”

The moment the Goddess of the Future said that, the crystal spear slipped from my hand. I immediately dived aside, but the Future World Crystal surpassed my speed by a fraction and bore into my stomach.

“Restrict, huh? I see. I suppose there could be a one-in-a-billion chance of me failing to grasp the spear. You used the Future World Crystal’s power to restrict the future and make that happen.”

“Kandaquizorte is the future itself. There is no way for you to touch the future.”

“Oh?”

I drew a layered magic circle and passed my right hand through it. With my fingertips stained bluish-white with Ygg Neas, I gave it another try, but they still failed to grasp the crystal shaft.

“It seems it won’t be so easy to grasp.”

The order of Kandaquizorte meant there was no way to touch it, and its power to restrict futures allowed it to slip past my hand.

“The spear can no longer be withdrawn,” Naphta said, facing me with her eyes still closed. “You have two options: surrender or let your source be pierced by the spear. The choice is yours.”

Naphta used her abilities to impose Anos on a future where Anos could never defeat her. But in the end, she had to declare that Anos could not lose in any future.

Spoiler: Volume 6 Chap 18

“A world created by Kandaquizorte, huh? So this is a god’s domain.” “I, Naphta, swear to you that this world has been restricted to produce

the worst possible result for you in every way. Your victory is not possible in this world.”

“Interesting,” I said, staring at her calmly. “Come at me then, future.

Let’s see what you can do.”
[...]
Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.

“In other words, this match is over.”

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.”

Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta.

The fate/events of the world were decided by Eques—that it would be destroyed, and no matter how things changed, the outcome, predetermined by the gears, could not be altered. But Anos's Magic Eyes of Mayhem destroyed the logic behind that fate/event, rendering it ineffective.

Spoiler: Volume 10 Chap 56

“Behold, contaminant of the world. The Cogs of Fate are already turning. No one can escape this fate. Beltexfenblem will force destiny upon you.”

The Cogs of Fate spread brown light through the area.

“This is your defeat.”

Bronze cogs implanted themselves across every surface of the three-sided world. Cogs of Fate turned in the land and skies, ice towns and forests, and across entire mountains.

“Make a single move and the Demon King Garden will shatter along with the order of creation. That is the fate Beltexfenblem has just decided. A destiny that cannot be fled or overturned, no matter what.”

An abnormal order had surrounded me. There was an eerie sound as the Cogs of Fate turned. Equis raised their arms high into the air.

“Verd Raze Fenblem.”

Bronze cogs creaked loudly, forcibly trying to distort the order of the three-sided world Misha had created.

“Be crushed by the Cogs of Fate, contaminant of the world.”

A cog magic circle was drawn, which connected with the bronze wheel and started to turn. The wheel expanded to gargantuan proportions, crushing the ground below it.

“Boros Hethero Avis.”

The bronze wheel shattered the ice with an eerie sound as it slowly made its way to me. With each rotation of the wheel brown sparks flew, dying the Demon King Garden a deep dreadful bronze. When the divine wheel made impact with my body it immediately tried to grind into my flesh, but I grabbed it with both hands.

“Now,” Equis declared, so sure of their victory, “it’s time for this transient world to perish under the Cogs of Fate.”

I slammed the Boros Hethero Avis down to the ground and stomped on it. The resulting sound shook the entire land—but the Demon King Garden was untouched.

“Wha...”

I took a step towards the flabbergasted Equis.

“How?” Equis muttered dumbly. “How are you walking...with Verd Raze Fenblem in effect?”

“It turns out that in the Demon King Garden, I can open these Magic Eyes a little.”

I walked straight towards them. My left Eye was dyed mauve with a cross of darkness deep within its abyss—it was one of the Magic Eyes of Mayhem. I had used it to destroy the order of Verd Raze Fenblem.

“Everything before these Eyes will perish. Be it order, reason, or you, Equis.”

“No such order should exist,” they said with dumbfounded confusion. “There are no Magic Eyes you can use that can affect destiny. Verd Raze Fenblem should have activated before that and destroyed the Demon King Garden!”

“You’re not getting it. I’m saying I destroyed the reason of Verd Raze Fenblem itself.”

“That’s impossible. Fate has already been determined. It was only a matter of it happening sooner or later. Even if time could be rewound to before the creation of the Demon King’s Garden, the Cogs of Fate would have still destroyed it.”

“Bwa ha ha. Instead of blindly believing in order, why don’t you believe in what just happened before you? Aren’t the holes in those cogs Divine Eyes? Use them to look closer into the abyss.”

I came to a stop before them. “You decided fate, and I destroyed reason. These two powers contradict each other. Thus, it’s my win.”

I lifted my foot and stomped on the ground. The bronze cogs buried in the surface all shattered at once.

“After all, contradiction and chaos are my forte.”

Between the Magic Eyes of Mayhem and a contradictory logic for its destruction, I was the one with an overwhelming advantage. The reasoning was simple: Against the power of a single fated event, the Magic Eyes of Mayhem merely had to prevent it from happening. The contradiction of preventing a predetermined incident then fueled the power of the Magic Eyes.

I took another step forward as a cog of time rotated before Equis.

“Boros Hethero—”

Equis tried to cast destruction magic at point-blank range, but my Vebzud fingertips bored into their abdomen first.

“G-Gieeeeee!” they screeched.

“Did you really think that an inflexible cog that jams with one simple contradiction could decide my fate for me?”

 

[Soma_Cruz]

I reread the comments and found that Dracula's plot haxing ability ensures he always wins and his opponents face terrible consequences; it's like altering the story to impose an unfavorable future/event on the opponent. This is similar to Naphta's ability to limit his opponents' future, or Eques's ability to impose destiny/events on the world, and Anos is not afraid of these things.

Spoiler

With her abilities from the Future Order, Naphta has the power to limit the future, as she did when she caused Anos to be stabbed by the spear even though Anos had managed to grab it.

Spoiler: Volume 6 Chap 18

With both eyes closed, Naphta filled her crystal ball with magic. “Sinner who stands before the Goddess of the Future, you will now be judged by Kandaquizorte, the Future World Crystal.”

The ball floated out of Naphta’s hands and distorted in shape, transforming into a spear.

“Your future has been decided. You have been sentenced to impalement,” she pronounced like a judge.

“Interesting. Just try it.”

The Goddess of the Future held her hands out before her. Divine magic flowed into the surrounding area, shaking the cathedral. The crystal spear turned towards me and shot forward faster than the eye could see. I turned my head to avoid it, but the spear turned at the same time, following my face.

“Hmm. So read the future?”

The spear came to a stop right before my nose. I had grabbed the shaft. “I can restrict the future. You will be unable to grasp the spear.”

The moment the Goddess of the Future said that, the crystal spear slipped from my hand. I immediately dived aside, but the Future World Crystal surpassed my speed by a fraction and bore into my stomach.

“Restrict, huh? I see. I suppose there could be a one-in-a-billion chance of me failing to grasp the spear. You used the Future World Crystal’s power to restrict the future and make that happen.”

“Kandaquizorte is the future itself. There is no way for you to touch the future.”

“Oh?”

I drew a layered magic circle and passed my right hand through it. With my fingertips stained bluish-white with Ygg Neas, I gave it another try, but they still failed to grasp the crystal shaft.

“It seems it won’t be so easy to grasp.”

The order of Kandaquizorte meant there was no way to touch it, and its power to restrict futures allowed it to slip past my hand.

“The spear can no longer be withdrawn,” Naphta said, facing me with her eyes still closed. “You have two options: surrender or let your source be pierced by the spear. The choice is yours.”

Naphta used her abilities to impose Anos on a future where Anos could never defeat her. But in the end, she had to declare that Anos could not lose in any future.

Spoiler: Volume 6 Chap 18

“A world created by Kandaquizorte, huh? So this is a god’s domain.” “I, Naphta, swear to you that this world has been restricted to produce

the worst possible result for you in every way. Your victory is not possible in this world.”

“Interesting,” I said, staring at her calmly. “Come at me then, future.

Let’s see what you can do.”
[...]
Naphta, who was holding the Future World Crystal in her hands, had both eyes open. As the god that governed the order of the future, she couldn’t allow the world’s possibilities to be closed off. In order to restrict Egil Grone Angdroa, she had gazed at all the futures she could.

“In other words, this match is over.”

Naphta nodded quietly. Cracks ran across her body. “I, Naphta, declare defeat. No matter how much the future is restricted, zero cannot become one. There is no world in which you can be defeated.”

Cracks ran along the Goddess of the Future’s body as she began to break down. No matter how much she restricted the world, the only future in store for one facing me was destruction. That future was fast approaching Naphta.

The fate/events of the world were decided by Eques—that it would be destroyed, and no matter how things changed, the outcome, predetermined by the gears, could not be altered. But Anos's Magic Eyes of Mayhem destroyed the logic behind that fate/event, rendering it ineffective.

Spoiler: Volume 10 Chap 56

“Behold, contaminant of the world. The Cogs of Fate are already turning. No one can escape this fate. Beltexfenblem will force destiny upon you.”

The Cogs of Fate spread brown light through the area.

“This is your defeat.”

Bronze cogs implanted themselves across every surface of the three-sided world. Cogs of Fate turned in the land and skies, ice towns and forests, and across entire mountains.

“Make a single move and the Demon King Garden will shatter along with the order of creation. That is the fate Beltexfenblem has just decided. A destiny that cannot be fled or overturned, no matter what.”

An abnormal order had surrounded me. There was an eerie sound as the Cogs of Fate turned. Equis raised their arms high into the air.

“Verd Raze Fenblem.”

Bronze cogs creaked loudly, forcibly trying to distort the order of the three-sided world Misha had created.

“Be crushed by the Cogs of Fate, contaminant of the world.”

A cog magic circle was drawn, which connected with the bronze wheel and started to turn. The wheel expanded to gargantuan proportions, crushing the ground below it.

“Boros Hethero Avis.”

The bronze wheel shattered the ice with an eerie sound as it slowly made its way to me. With each rotation of the wheel brown sparks flew, dying the Demon King Garden a deep dreadful bronze. When the divine wheel made impact with my body it immediately tried to grind into my flesh, but I grabbed it with both hands.

“Now,” Equis declared, so sure of their victory, “it’s time for this transient world to perish under the Cogs of Fate.”

I slammed the Boros Hethero Avis down to the ground and stomped on it. The resulting sound shook the entire land—but the Demon King Garden was untouched.

“Wha...”

I took a step towards the flabbergasted Equis.

“How?” Equis muttered dumbly. “How are you walking...with Verd Raze Fenblem in effect?”

“It turns out that in the Demon King Garden, I can open these Magic Eyes a little.”

I walked straight towards them. My left Eye was dyed mauve with a cross of darkness deep within its abyss—it was one of the Magic Eyes of Mayhem. I had used it to destroy the order of Verd Raze Fenblem.

“Everything before these Eyes will perish. Be it order, reason, or you, Equis.”

“No such order should exist,” they said with dumbfounded confusion. “There are no Magic Eyes you can use that can affect destiny. Verd Raze Fenblem should have activated before that and destroyed the Demon King Garden!”

“You’re not getting it. I’m saying I destroyed the reason of Verd Raze Fenblem itself.”

“That’s impossible. Fate has already been determined. It was only a matter of it happening sooner or later. Even if time could be rewound to before the creation of the Demon King’s Garden, the Cogs of Fate would have still destroyed it.”

“Bwa ha ha. Instead of blindly believing in order, why don’t you believe in what just happened before you? Aren’t the holes in those cogs Divine Eyes? Use them to look closer into the abyss.”

I came to a stop before them. “You decided fate, and I destroyed reason. These two powers contradict each other. Thus, it’s my win.”

I lifted my foot and stomped on the ground. The bronze cogs buried in the surface all shattered at once.

“After all, contradiction and chaos are my forte.”

Between the Magic Eyes of Mayhem and a contradictory logic for its destruction, I was the one with an overwhelming advantage. The reasoning was simple: Against the power of a single fated event, the Magic Eyes of Mayhem merely had to prevent it from happening. The contradiction of preventing a predetermined incident then fueled the power of the Magic Eyes.

I took another step forward as a cog of time rotated before Equis.

“Boros Hethero—”

Equis tried to cast destruction magic at point-blank range, but my Vebzud fingertips bored into their abdomen first.

“G-Gieeeeee!” they screeched.

“Did you really think that an inflexible cog that jams with one simple contradiction could decide my fate for me?”

Cool! But, just because they have the same result doesn't mean they are similar. As one uses Law/Fate manip to do it, while Dracula uses Plot hax to do it, which Anos doesn't resist. Anos needs to resist the ability (plot manip) itself to avoid those cruel endings.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Cool! But, just because they have the same result doesn't mean they are similar. As one uses Law/Fate manip to do it, while Dracula uses Plot hax to do it, which Anos doesn't resist. Anos needs to resist the ability (plot manip) itself to avoid those cruel endings.

Even if plot manip used on Anos, I doubt it would be enough to win. If Dracula uses his plot on him to make Anos lose or control his body it wouldn't work fully because Anos would still be able to think and act through his Source(concept) alone while also able to use magic through it.

Like Anos can use Veneziara to make an possibility version and exist as possibility to finish off Dracula or can unleash EGA to wipe out everything. And since it is done through source a concept which Dracula can't seem to effect, he won't be able to stop it imo.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No, We don't equalize things like this, or you are practically giving verses with less abilities advantage in a fight by equalizing almost everything. The equalize things here is, you are making abilities cross-verse be able to interact with each other so the fight can happen. For example verse A have Dao, verse B have Essence power. By equalizing them we allows these two powers interact with each other

At this point I think we need to ask DT for clarification lol since he is the one who made that.

 

[Reiner04]

Just create QnA in thzt case since i doubt DT will take part in verse specific queries. And even if did it will take eons.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I need more confirmation that Anos stomps so we can close this thread and update the list already

You should have just used Graham.

 

[Soma_Cruz]

Even if plot manip used on Anos, I doubt it would be enough to win. If Dracula uses his plot on him to make Anos lose or control his body it wouldn't work fully because Anos would still be able to think and act through his Source(concept) alone while also able to use magic through it.

Like Anos can use Veneziara to make an possibility version and exist as possibility to finish off Dracula or can unleash EGA to wipe out everything. And since it is done through source a concept which Dracula can't seem to effect, he won't be able to stop it imo.

I didn't really say that Dracula wins or that's enough to make him win, and based off how the profile portrays his plot hax, it's just that he uses it to create changes in reality that in turn make fights more advantageous to him rather than use it to control the body of someone. He doesn't really need to interact with Anos's source; the ability affects reality, not Anos directly. So. Yeah, just incon at best with neither of them able to harm the other in any significant way.

 

[ThienDe01]

I didn't really say that Dracula wins or that's enough to make him win, and based off how the profile portrays his plot hax, it's just that he uses it to create changes in reality that in turn make fights more advantageous to him rather than use it to control the body of someone. He doesn't really need to interact with Anos's source; the ability affects reality, not Anos directly. So. Yeah, just incon at best with neither of them able to harm the other in any significant way.

I agree with you; the description of Dracula's plot hax clearly states that what is changed after the story is altered is reality.