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We are downgrading 99% of fiction with these args!
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The biggest Deltarune CRT in history: Chapters 3 & 4 Tiering, LS and Speed Upgrades
- Thread starter StrymULTRA
- Start date
- Status
- 19,280
- 11,978
- Thread starter
- #242
Damn why didn't Asriel just nuke the game like Chara did, is he stupid?
Pegasus124467
He/Him- 24
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yeah, no.
Not instantly nuking the world meaning they don't scale isn't a great argument considering how 99% of fiction like DB and One Piece have at least continent level people only destroying buildings/towns or exerting onscreen power that only scales to that level at most in fights, this could just be a similar case.
This is just a classic example of AP =/= DC, really.
Not instantly nuking the world meaning they don't scale isn't a great argument considering how 99% of fiction like DB and One Piece have at least continent level people only destroying buildings/towns or exerting onscreen power that only scales to that level at most in fights, this could just be a similar case.
This is just a classic example of AP =/= DC, really.
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- #245
If we really want to go that route, I could've used Giygas, as the guy has a pfp of an Earthbound character.
Giygas, the almighty idiot, the universal cosmic destroyer, doesn't destroy the universe instantly despite being straight up mindless and completely unable to hold back while also being 2-B in power AND Low 2-C in range as in weaker forms he could affect the universe across time.
I simply wanted to use Kid Buu was he was a more mainstream example, but I happened to forget about Giygas lol.
Giygas, the almighty idiot, the universal cosmic destroyer, doesn't destroy the universe instantly despite being straight up mindless and completely unable to hold back while also being 2-B in power AND Low 2-C in range as in weaker forms he could affect the universe across time.
I simply wanted to use Kid Buu was he was a more mainstream example, but I happened to forget about Giygas lol.
Pegasus124467
He/Him- 24
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If Tetsuo could create big bangs, why didn't the universe just go to heck? Is he stupid?
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How am I stonewalling? You haven't answered why the Titan should scale to the fountain's reality warping. Spamton NEO doesn't scale to the city that he created and sustained, and Ms Mizzle doesn't scale to the storm that she created and likely sustained as well. The Titan lacks many attributes the the fountains have, and you have to do an insane amount of stretching and handwaving away counterevidence to make your interpretation work. It's inconsistent, and it's the most important part of the CRT. If the reasoning is poor, it shouldn't go through.
LittleGuy99
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No we aren't? How many verses have a villain who are rated as being able to output enough energy to destroy their whole cosmology, have the range to destroy their whole cosmology, want to destroy their whole cosmology... and then are unable to destroy their cosmology?
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He didn't want to. That wasn't his goal, he outright says so. If it WAS his goal, and he failed to do so, then yes, that'd be an anti feat. Thank you for giving me an example to prove my point.
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You are not understanding the argument. I'm not saying AP has to equal DC.
Imagine if in Dragon Ball, Beerus decided he wanted to destroy the entire universe. If it took him hundreds of years to do so, then that would prove that either A) He lacks the AP, or B) He lacks the AoE to do so in one shot. If he had both, it'd be done. So which is it? Does the Titan lack the range, or the AP? It can't have both.
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It’s not necessarily about cosmology but scale. There are plenty of characters who are rated as far higher than their destructive capabilities. Why wouldn’t an average DC/Marvel villain who wants to kill everyone just nuke countries? They, like, destroy walls at best during their fight, maybe small buildings when all out! Downgrade all of them to Tier 9-8.
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That whole fight takes place in a pocket dimension. Porky literally says he'll destroy the universe after the fight. Great job proving my point, again.
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Bad comparison. The Titan HAS TO have the AoE of the fountain if you want it to have the AP of one. It is baseless to suggest it'd only get the AP for no reason.
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What? The purpose of a CRT is to discuss the new information to see if it can be applied. We don't just apply every CRT without any consideration or pushback, and then revert them later. This one hasn't even gotten enough staff support to be applied in the first place. I really don't care what you think about me. If you can't counter my arguments, that's your problem. If you guys want to make Fountain scaling a separate thread, then you need to make a new one. Otherwise, I will discuss it here.
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Not really, most of these villains have both AP & Range very high.
He does it via just sustaining lol, unless I’m missing something. I don’t think it’s even Range-worthy in the profile. He doesn’t have blasts or explosions that can touch anything lol.
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I don't care. Stay on topic.
You don't seem to understand the argument I'm making. I'll make a separate comment summarizing my argument, since a lot of people don't seem to get it and keep chiming in with unrelated counterexamples that miss the point. Please refer to that.
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Guess not only you are making sure nobody takes you seriously anymore, but also clearly understands that you're rude and dismissive. Noted.
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I don't need to or care to argue about DC or Marvel right now. It's irrelevant to the CRT. Please stop the whataboutism, let's stay on topic.
Guess not only you are making sure nobody takes you seriously anymore, but also clearly understands that you're rude and dismissive. Noted.
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Except I am not making a counteraccusation for whataboutism to take place. I am using precedent cases on this wikia to examplify/illustrate cases with the exact same thing as relevant to our topic. Thus, it is not irrelevant. You'd have a better shot by appealing to hasty generalization, to be honest.
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No you aren't. You don't understand my argument. Please either reread my previous replies carefully or wait until I post my clarification comment. I'm busy right now, it should be up in an hour or two.
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Going to summarize and clarify my argument and position since I keep getting replies that clearly don't understand it. Please read carefully if you're planning to argue against this.
The CRT is attempting to scale the Titan to the full scope of a Dark World. The reasoning for this is because Titans share many attributes with Dark Fountains and are linked, and Dark Fountains are what creates and sustains Dark Worlds. For example, they're created from Dark Fountains, and are sealed away by the SOUL in the same way. This is all true. However, this does not necessarily mean that Titans share all attributes with a Fountain, and vice versa. The Dark Fountains don't create Dark Worlds through pure physical energy, they're noted to be illusory and metaphysical in nature many times. In other words, it's reality warping. If we had a Dark Fountain profile, the tier would say something like: "At least 7-B, possibly 4-A with Reality Warping." The problem here is that there is NO EVIDENCE that the Titan would scale to this reality warping. It does not possess this reality warping, and it does not amplify it's attacks with it or anything. There's no UPS involved that could suggest it'd scale, either. It's entirely baseless. Similarly, sustaining the Dark Fountain is done through Reality Warping. We already use this same reasoning with NEO, who also creates and sustains a city with reality warping (except unlike the Titan, he's actually the one who does it), but we don't scale it to his physicals. Same thing would apply here.
The second point I made arguing against the Titan scaling to the Dark Fountain's reality warping is that the Titan lacks several attributes that Fountains have, so it's baseless to attribute it stats without more evidence. For example, the Titan does not have the Fountain's reality warping, as mentioned above, which is what's used for it's feat in the first place. It also lacks the range and the AoE of a Dark Fountain. Dark Fountains create entire cities, possibly entire solar systems, in very short timeframes, less than a minute going off the Second Sanctuary. Titans can't replicate an equivalent feat by destroying similar sized cities/solar systems in such short time frames. So if Titans lack the range that a Dark Fountain has, then why should we attribute them the AP of their reality warping without further evidence? I hope that clarifies my point, several people said that it was an AoE fallacy or something similar, but it should be clear now that that's not what is being argued.
The CRT is attempting to scale the Titan to the full scope of a Dark World. The reasoning for this is because Titans share many attributes with Dark Fountains and are linked, and Dark Fountains are what creates and sustains Dark Worlds. For example, they're created from Dark Fountains, and are sealed away by the SOUL in the same way. This is all true. However, this does not necessarily mean that Titans share all attributes with a Fountain, and vice versa. The Dark Fountains don't create Dark Worlds through pure physical energy, they're noted to be illusory and metaphysical in nature many times. In other words, it's reality warping. If we had a Dark Fountain profile, the tier would say something like: "At least 7-B, possibly 4-A with Reality Warping." The problem here is that there is NO EVIDENCE that the Titan would scale to this reality warping. It does not possess this reality warping, and it does not amplify it's attacks with it or anything. There's no UPS involved that could suggest it'd scale, either. It's entirely baseless. Similarly, sustaining the Dark Fountain is done through Reality Warping. We already use this same reasoning with NEO, who also creates and sustains a city with reality warping (except unlike the Titan, he's actually the one who does it), but we don't scale it to his physicals. Same thing would apply here.
The second point I made arguing against the Titan scaling to the Dark Fountain's reality warping is that the Titan lacks several attributes that Fountains have, so it's baseless to attribute it stats without more evidence. For example, the Titan does not have the Fountain's reality warping, as mentioned above, which is what's used for it's feat in the first place. It also lacks the range and the AoE of a Dark Fountain. Dark Fountains create entire cities, possibly entire solar systems, in very short timeframes, less than a minute going off the Second Sanctuary. Titans can't replicate an equivalent feat by destroying similar sized cities/solar systems in such short time frames. So if Titans lack the range that a Dark Fountain has, then why should we attribute them the AP of their reality warping without further evidence? I hope that clarifies my point, several people said that it was an AoE fallacy or something similar, but it should be clear now that that's not what is being argued.
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NGL, your case isn't really helping here, Spt. You have already been countered many times and all you're doing is stonewalling by presenting the same arguments that have already been debunked by them. Also, there's no need to be rude here, so please calm down.
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I actually haven't received a single answer to either of my two arguments that isn't just "lol plot," which is not a real answer. Why should we scale the Titan to the reality warping of the Fountain, we don't do this for any other characters in the verse and there is no reason to say they scale to physicals. I'd like an answer to this. I'd also like an answer as to why we should scale it to the fountain when it's shown it lacks the range of a fountain.
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It scales to physicals because it is a stabilization feat for Dark Fountains. Titan would have AoE only for stabilizing at best, not blasts or explosions or attacks. Just like Dark Fountains don't either. Unless you have a clip of Dark Fountain launching a blast that affects all of the Dark World.
This has been said a billion of times here already, I just summarize it for the last time.
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Stabilization does not have to scale to physicals, especially if it is done through reality warping. Spamton NEO sustains his creations, they instantly vanish the moment his strings are cut. This doesn't mean they scale to him physically. Same applies here. I'd like you or someone else to give a reason to scale it to that reality warping, if you can.
Your AoE point also does not work. The Dark Fountain has zero attacking feats at all, it's not capable of such a thing. It's range is with it's reality warping, which is what you are attempting to scale the Titan's AP to. If you're gonna do that, then you can't arbitrarily decide the range of said reality warping doesn't also scale for no reason.
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- Thread starter
- #269
"The Titan is made of Darkness, which is what generates and sustains the Dark Worlds in the first place, but nothing says that he physically scales to the thing he's physically made of." LOL.
Even then, you're pretty much breaking a rule, not to mini-mod.
You've already done your point, and we all don't have the time and patience to reply to you saying the same stuff over and over. Wonder why none is liking your posts, maybe you're just wrong and making up Standards on the fly?
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Being made of darkness = MSS level??? Then every Darkner in the whole game is MSS, lol.
Disagreeing with you and asking for evidence is not breaking any rules, sorry. Overly argumentative does not include debating the central premise of a CRT.
Actually, you haven't properly engaged with my argument at all. All you've really done is misconstrue it. Why does the Titan scales to the fountain's reality warping? The reasons you've provided don't make sense. Why would I care if anyone is liking my posts? What is that supposed to prove? Point out which standard I've made up, please.
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@Sptflcrw for the love of pong, can you slow down with the constant double/triple posting? While you are entitled to an opinion, but when you debate, a single post is enough. And you can edit to add more text. Moreover, there have been far too many circular arguments and prefer if it's time for staff to evaluate.
Also, could the OP update the vote count?
Also, could the OP update the vote count?
- 19,280
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- Thread starter
- #272
Thank you very much DDM, was pretty needed.
Regarding this, I will when I get home as I'm outside rn.
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I haven't actually spoken on the other stuff so I'll do that quickly for voting purposes.
Agree with downscaling stats of 10 or higher to the Tenna calc. I'd actually say we can just go further and downscale the rest of the regular enemies, since Tasques are able to fight alongside Tasque Manager.
Disagree with the Spamton multiplier, I'd like to see more input from others on this and reasoning for it since it has been underdiscussed.
Ms Mizzle scaling fully to Sound of Justice is fine.
Disagree with scaling the Titan to either 7-B or 4-A. Possibly 4-A is fine for the Lighter's creation feats, though.
All lifting strength ends are fine.
All speed calcs are fine, including the FTL ones.
Agree with downscaling stats of 10 or higher to the Tenna calc. I'd actually say we can just go further and downscale the rest of the regular enemies, since Tasques are able to fight alongside Tasque Manager.
Disagree with the Spamton multiplier, I'd like to see more input from others on this and reasoning for it since it has been underdiscussed.
Ms Mizzle scaling fully to Sound of Justice is fine.
Disagree with scaling the Titan to either 7-B or 4-A. Possibly 4-A is fine for the Lighter's creation feats, though.
All lifting strength ends are fine.
All speed calcs are fine, including the FTL ones.
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- #274
Last edited:
- 19,280
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LittleGuy99
He/Him- 1,230
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Bump?
Anonymous_Learner
He/Him- 6,752
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i think it's good to go through, people are just preparing to implement it or something
- 19,280
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- Thread starter
- #280
No, I'm just waiting a 3rd staff for 4-A, 2 are absolutely not enough.
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