The biggest Deltarune CRT in history: Chapters 3 & 4 Tiering, LS and Speed Upgrades

[Thelastmlg]

Also seam talking about the LW sun doesn't make sense cuz they are inside of a closed room, how is the sun setting for them lol, and also dark worlds are closed spaces hyper filled with darkness, it doesn't make sense for him to be talking about a external light source rather than, idk, the lightbulb in the room maybe (which was turned off since we only turn it on when we finish the adventure there), that could be their sun but it can also become a real sun since dark worlds expand on stuff like that

 

[StrymULTRA]

And i totally disagree with just waving away the dojo and mike fights as non-canon minigames to justify the cast being quintillions of times stronger than everyone in previous chapters combined out of nowhere, being optional or not doesn't really change anything, a lot of the game's dialogue, lore and items are optional and yet we treat them as important

This is a false equivalence because if they are important, then we consider them. What importance has the Fight Dojo, to be exact?

The gap between 7-C and 7-B is not as egregious as a sudden 4-A boost tho, frankly looking back, i don't even see why the fun gang would suddenly go from "8-B, possibly 7-C" to "7-B" to begin with since they had no boost in the narrative, beyond their equipment, they'd be relative to the beginning, and so literally every fodder in the chapter would be 4-A unless you wanna believe they are holding back less than a fraction of their power (including durability since you can die there)

While not "egregious", it's not something that would allow any kind of backscale. A x1000 gap and a x10^45 would still atomize whatever is below them as I said.

Saitama vs garou takes place in the real world where the sky obviously real and they punched a hole in it, do we seriously need evidence that the stars in our sky are real?

I meant more the whole "they never mentions them again" as the SP^2 was never referenced again even once in OPM.

Also, besides fighting enemies that are literal darkness, we also escape from those weird dark flea things in chapter 4, and since they are all made of darkness, you could argue that they'd scale to the dark fountains giving shape to the dark worlds in seconds, which is a nice speed feat that's either like hypersonic for city-sized dark worlds and mftl+ for cosmic dark worlds

The thing is that it's more a range thing then actual speed, as it's not like the darkness "spreads" like a blob, it's just removal of light.

 

[Ti58]

• Chapter 1: Castle Town has showcased to have stars, with the respective Nintendo Switch border also having these

I have no real counterargument here apart from these stars being far beyond the edge of the dark world as shown by Ralsei's legend

• Chapter 2: Cyber World has star-like dots on the background.

I already explained that one above, they move faster than the Cyber City in the backround at one point, so they're closer than the city.

• Chapter 3: TV World has shown to have stars in the background.

Those stars have a weird cutoff

• Chapter 4: One of the backgrounds that is showcased from Gerson's window is a starry sky.

This is one of the backrounds related to Gerson's dialogue. This one appears specifically when he's talking about Tenna's video games and the original game ("isles of northernlight"). Those are obviously not real stars.

 

[Ti58]

Regardless of all this, the brought up evidence that dark worlds have a day and night cycle, as well as Seam mentioning an actual sun do actually support real stars being a possibility

Seam's talking about the light world since they're talking about the fun gang and stuff

Also, besides fighting enemies that are literal darkness, we also escape from those weird dark flea things in chapter 4, and since they are all made of darkness, you could argue that they'd scale to the dark fountains giving shape to the dark worlds in seconds, which is a nice speed feat that's either like hypersonic for city-sized dark worlds and mftl+ for cosmic dark worlds

Those are just the Titan Spawns.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I have no real counterargument here apart from these stars being far beyond the edge of the dark world as shown by Ralsei's legend

???

Those stars have a weird cutoff

There's also the fact that there are 2 Dark Fountains too, one far off and one close to the point where Tenna was killed by TRK. I think it's just Toby Fox having ****** up the mapping there.

This is one of the backrounds related to Gerson's dialogue. This one appears specifically when he's talking about Tenna's video games and the original game ("isles of northernlight"). Those are obviously not real stars.

I mean it's still an indicator of these being physically there

 

[Ti58]

I personally don't think that using the playable's stats is good evidence for anything, otherwise we gonna make Winglade, Spamton or Jevil downscale from whatever enemy the Fun Gang can fight regardless of their feats, which is where I draw the line between intended interactions and game mechanics.

Do we not do that for Frisk already? Those stats I mentioned are shown in the menu already.

In Chapter 3 the fun gang can have higher stats than in Chapter 4 depending on equipment.

 

[Thelastmlg]

This is a false equivalence because if they are important, then we consider them. What importance has the Fight Dojo, to be exact?

While not "egregious", it's not something that would allow any kind of backscale. A x1000 gap and a x10^45 would still atomize whatever is below them as I said.

I meant more the whole "they never mentions them again" as the SP^2 was never referenced again even once in OPM.

The thing is that it's more a range thing then actual speed, as it's not like the darkness "spreads" like a blob, it's just removal of light.

In the importance part i was mostly thinking of the mike fight since toby goes out of his way to make sure you do it, but the dojo being a minigame shouldn't just place it in some kind of dubiously canon limbo, i mean, it kinda implies that even interacting with castle town is outside of the usual narrative because most of it is optional and i feel like that's just cherry picking what can or cannot be used to scale characters (and again, making everyone 4-A is on the table :3)

I'm confused what point we are reaching here actually, like both options would make the struggle in previous fights senseless so are we discussing either they just got a boost or if is fine to just make everyone from the beginning of chapter 4 to its end?

I see what ya mean but we have a reason for that, besides 99% of the cast dying during the fight, the reversal of causality punch retconned the fight, including the SP^2 damage, and everyone forgot about it, even saitama and blast, so there is no reason to remember it (i think genos did somehow since he made a theory? I forgot, but he was also effectively dead when the ounch took place)

Wouldn't that still require speed though, since the fountains give shape to the dark world, they'd probably need to move it around and such right? I know we got tenna being the actual "creator" of the tv world since he built it over the "wilderness" (which i think is the snow area right) but i imagine that it was something like, he prepare the shape for it in the imaginary dark world that is always there, before the fountain gave it the physical, real form we can enter, so i think it would require the darkness to spread no? (Also i think i recall statements of the darkness spreading in their creation, i forgot)

 

[Ti58]

There's also the fact that there are 2 Dark Fountains too, one far off and one close to the point where Tenna was killed by TRK. I think it's just Toby Fox having ****** up the mapping there.

Toby Fox constantly ***** up with dark fountains already, they're all behind the fight arena and then suddenly are in a different place.

I mean it's still an indicator of these being physically there

Not really, they're just like on the window thing, they disappear five seconds later and are only relevant for the 2 dialogue lines. Gerson reality warping stars into existence isn't really touched upon in any way.

 

[Mommyleona]

disagree with ftl

 

[LittleGuy99]

Not really, they're just like on the window thing, they disappear five seconds later and are only relevant for the 2 dialogue lines. Gerson reality warping stars into existence isn't really touched upon in any way.

Gerson is just that guy
In my opinion, I think it's fine that it stays at "Possibly" until chapter 5 fully disproves it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Do we not do that for Frisk already? Those stats I mentioned are shown in the menu already.

For Frisk these are the stats shown only with minimal DT, as they increase these always mid-fight. I don't think it's really a comparable situation, also because Deltarune is not Undertale, so we use different approaches here.

Toby Fox constantly ***** up with dark fountains already, they're all behind the fight arena and then suddenly are in a different place.

So you agree with me or?

Not really, they're just like on the window thing, they disappear five seconds later and are only relevant for the 2 dialogue lines. Gerson reality warping stars into existence isn't really touched upon in any way.

Tbf that was more a supportive point rather than a main one.

In the importance part i was mostly thinking of the mike fight since toby goes out of his way to make sure you do it, but the dojo being a minigame shouldn't just place it in some kind of dubiously canon limbo, i mean, it kinda implies that even interacting with castle town is outside of the usual narrative because most of it is optional and i feel like that's just cherry picking what can or cannot be used to scale characters (and again, making everyone 4-A is on the table :3)

By importance I mean mostly its effects on the lore, the Battle Dojo is just a silly little thing you do for some prizes rather than a story-relevant thing.

Also it'd mean they scale from 7-B too.

Wouldn't that still require speed though, since the fountains give shape to the dark world, they'd probably need to move it around and such right?

The Dark Worlds are created by the removal of light, a process that gradually warps the room at once rather than spreading it like a disease or something similar.

Plus there's no evidence they scale to the speed of the thing anyway, same reason why High 3-A characters aren't Infinite speed by default.

disagree with ftl

Wonderful argument, someone get to close this CRT instantly!

 

[Thelastmlg]

There's also the fact that there are 2 Dark Fountains too, one far off and one close to the point where Tenna was killed by TRK. I think it's just Toby Fox having ****** up the mapping there.

Yeah the stars cutoff can be explained by the fountain just, darkning the area and hiding them, but how did they **** up the mapping so badly like that lol, it makes it look like the knight opened another fountain and no one mention that

I'm actually surprised that i never saw ANYONE talk about this? Like, no one ever questioning this weird background choice? Is not like the first fountain being far away was just an artistic liberty since ralsei's dialogue is worded as if it was far away, only for it to be like 50 meters away to the other side

Then again, tenna fell through the ground and apparentely got lost somewhere in the dark world as if he fell off a cliff, so frankly that whole area is a spatial anomaly lmao (hey, the knight already cuts through space, maybe they did something)

Okay this is irrelevant to the talk, sorry

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah the stars cutoff can be explained by the fountain just, darkning the area and hiding them, but how did they **** up the mapping so badly like that lol, it makes it look like the knight opened another fountain and no one mention that

There's a reason why Toby Fox's programming is a meme not on the level of Yandev though thank god.

 

[Qurbonboev]

disagree with ftl

What are your reasons to disagree with them?

 

[Ti58]

For Frisk these are the stats shown only with minimal DT, as they increase these always mid-fight. I don't think it's really a comparable situation, also because Deltarune is not Undertale, so we use different approaches here.

I mean the fact that their stats can be depending on equipment lower on Ch4 than in Ch3 tells me that they didn't become nearly 10^50 times stronger.

So you agree with me or?

I do think the cutoff is weird but I don't think it necessarily debunks these stars.

Also, why isn't scaling fodders to the Titan an option why can't they be not much below the Titan while still being inferior

 

[Thelastmlg]

yeah you see the vision, 4-A Berdly so he stomps Eridan

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean the fact that their stats can be depending on equipment lower on Ch4 than in Ch3 tells me that they didn't become nearly 10^50 times stronger.

The game being made from the same guy who made Undertale does not mean it's immune to these.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Most deranged CRT known to man
Kris is genuinely wall level

 

[Mommyleona]

Wonderful argument, someone get to close this CRT instantly!

Yeah sorry i forgot i have to agree with anything you say
I do not see any light dodging/moving with light in tandem in that feat, Jackenstein is just avoiding Kris's movements, the whole thing is already brightened with light emanating from the soul bruh

 

[Ti58]

Most deranged CRT known to man
Kris is genuinely wall level

light world Kris yes

 

[Ti58]

Yeah sorry i forgot i have to agree with anything you say
I do not see any light dodging/moving with light in tandem in that feat, Jackenstein is just avoiding Kris's movements, the whole thing is already brightened with light emanating from the soul bruh

Jack moves in tandem with light.

 

[LittleGuy99]

The FTL thing is straight forward

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do not see any light dodging/moving with light in tandem in that feat, Jackenstein is just avoiding Kris's movements, the whole thing is already brightened with light emanating from the soul bruh

Jack is moving faster than the light beams the soul emanates.

 

[Ti58]

The game being made from the same guy who made Undertale does not mean it's immune to these.

True, however I don't think game mechanics alone can explain a nearly 10^50 jump

 

[StrymULTRA]

True, however I don't think game mechanics alone can explain a nearly 10^50 jump

We have Pokémon who jump from High 7-A to 2-A by just leveling up real hard, this is nothing lol.

 

[Thelastmlg]

1. The feat is not about the soul light aura, is about the final pumpkin speed in relation to the rays of light coming out of the soul at random directions

2. When it hits 30%, the pumpkin also seems to expand in tadem with the light expanding, could that be part of the feat?

3. Is not Jackestein! That is jackstein's monste- uh, i mean, pumpkin, is jackestein pumpkin! Did you not learn with Frankenstein???

Obvs he still scales to it but GET IT RIGHT

 

[Ti58]

We have Pokémon who jump from High 7-A to 2-A by just leveling up real hard, this is nothing lol.

My point was that in Chapter 3 you can have stats higher than in Chapter 4 which'd contadict Chapter 4 being that far above Ch3

 

[Psychomaster35]

For what end should be used with the Statue of Justice moving in tandem with waves, I still think using air speed is more reliable. So, solid 8-B for Chapter 1-3 is.

Everything else here looks good, and I agree with them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

My point was that in Chapter 3 you can have stats higher than in Chapter 4 which'd contadict Chapter 4 being that far above Ch3

Tbh that is like never mentioned once in any dialogue whatsoever, which is why I think it's a game mechanic just like it is to say that Spamton and Jevil would scale to whatever big villain regardless of their tier just because they can be used as equipped items.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For what end should be used with the Statue of Justice moving in tandem with waves, I still think using air speed is more reliable. So, solid 8-B for Chapter 1-3 is.

Everything else here looks good, and I agree with them.

I'll be fr idrc if the feat gets 8-B or Low 7-C+, that gets up to staff.

So this means Class G for everyone yippie!!

 

[Pegasus124467]

Just seeing this thread, sorry for the late input, but I do agree with potential 7-B via the Titan, 4-A is also up to interpretation, so I'm unsure of that, but if people are fine with it then sure

As for speed, it seems fine imo. Jackenstein's own feat is meh too, but I'm also 50-50 on that really

 

[Mommyleona]

Jack moves in tandem with light.

Jack is moving faster than the light beams the soul emanates.

light slower than light then huh.
you can clearly see how the whole room/battlefield is already covered in light

1. The feat is not about the soul light aura, is about the final pumpkin speed in relation to the rays of light coming out of the soul at random directions

and how come this light aura (that is constantly emanating) able to cover everything in sight at all times, showing that its much faster than everything else, but those "rays of light" move considerably slower than it

 

[StrymULTRA]

light slower than light then huh.
you can clearly see how the whole room/battlefield is already covered in light

Tbh the initial light expands at around the same speed if you check these frame by frame (will send it myself later on, pretty busy rn).

Also let's not pretend that light cannot expand in places where there's already, otherwise 99.99% of laser feats can't exist.

 

[Thelastmlg]

light slower than light then huh.
you can clearly see how the whole room/battlefield is already covered in light


and how come this light aura (that is constantly emanating) able to cover everything in sight at all times, showing that its much faster than everything else, but those "rays of light" move considerably slower than it

1. When it is first used and the aura expands, you can see it expand at the same speed as the rays, subsequent segments just don't repeat the light reveal so it is already there constantly emanating while the rays come out and go out

2. You do know that stronger light is visible in the middle of other fonts of light right? The aura of light is just weaker than the rays so they are visible

 

[StrymULTRA]

light slower than light then huh.
you can clearly see how the whole room/battlefield is already covered in light


and how come this light aura (that is constantly emanating) able to cover everything in sight at all times, showing that its much faster than everything else, but those "rays of light" move considerably slower than it

Tbh the initial light expands at around the same speed if you check these frame by frame (will send it myself later on, pretty busy rn).

Here you can clearly see that the rays of light move as fast as the spreading of light itself.

The frames if you don't believe me still:

 

[Pegasus124467]

Taking a look at whats mentioned above, FTL does seem good as I have been convinced

The only thing I'm not 100% is 4-A because it is a outlier but considering how Undertale also had large jumps from like Tier 8 to Tier 2 it's not entirely out of the question

 

[Ti58]

Agree with everything (and ground waves calc) except 4-A

 

[StrymULTRA]

The only thing I'm not 100% is 4-A because it is a outlier but considering how Undertale also had large jumps from like Tier 8 to Tier 2 it's not entirely out of the question

Tbh "it's outlier" is disingeneous. I already said before that only the God Tiers (7 characters) would scale, and there's been genuine power growth to justify it.

Don't use just feelings and vibes to give ratings, use actual evidence, as otherwise we can't powerscale to begin with.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

agree with everything except Tier 4 Titan
Frisk agenda had a good run

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree with all of the AP stuff, neutral on the speed stuff