The biggest Deltarune CRT in history: Chapters 3 & 4 Tiering, LS and Speed Upgrades

[StrymULTRA]

Hello.

I am here to announce that finally the CRT regarding the new feats of the Chapters 3 and 4 of Deltarune are made (were supposed to be done after my ongoing Undertale revisions, but other talks made me change my mind on it).

These chapters were released over 5 months ago, and we're on them just now because of me getting through a lot of procrastination and other drastic irl issues.

Right now, we have this on Kris' profile. And let me say it... It sucks, and a lot, because it's basically spamming the same tier for stuff that is barely an improvement in terms of power. So let's just go to the new feats that the Chapters have given to us in order to get an actual updated rating on these characters.

Alas, a massive credit to @Qurbonboev, @LittleGuy99, @Eden_Warlock99 and @Edutyn for these, as without them there wouldn't have been as much discussion which led to these ratings in the 1st place.

Attack Potency and Durability​

The first thing that should be obviously clarified is the Tiering of the characters.

Each section is indeed lenghty, so I made for each a spoiler tab so you can focus on it when reading.

Spoiler: Chapters 1-3

Right now, we have all these new feats calculated and accepted:

Spoiler: List of all the accepted feats

Tenna GBE: 418.156885 Kilojoules (Wall)
Lanino heats things up: 0.00391 Tons of TNT per second (Wall)
Shadowguys bullets KE: 0.00122144028017378095 Tons of TNT to 0.00400845029720960783 Tons of TNT (Wall)
Elnina cools things down: 0.005581767 Tons per/s (Wall)
Golden Tenna KE: 0.03184029046940726 Tons (Small Building)
Gerson throws is hammer: 0.012163351 Tons (Small Building)
1 Gerson Final Attack: 0.590283618 Tons of TNT (Building)
The watercooler shows no mercy: 0.886674051 Tons of TNT (Building)
Elnina creates ice crystals - 1.11 Tons of TNT (Building)
HolywaterCooler showns no mercy: 2,614663133 Tons of TNT (Large Building)
Wicabel's Bell: 2.82 Tons of TNT (Large Building)
Tenna weather report: 7,280557683 Tons (Large Building+)
Kris Protects Susie: 0.189110807 Tons of TNT (Small Building Level) to 48.62431403 Tons of TNT (City Block)
Tenna claps faster than electricity: 48.927416587 Tons of TNT (City Block)
Titan PE: 139.127518881 Tons of TNT (Multi-City Block)
The Justice is made of Sound: 21.19167596 Tons of TNT (City Block) to 5448.819777 Tons of TNT (Small Town)

Before I get in the tierings, I'll explain just a bit of scaling.

I do not think it's wise to make a key for every single chapter is very wise, as otherwise we end up with a Kris and Susie with a whooping amount of 8 keys in total. Because of this, I believe it's wise to instead group the chapters based on on relative the characters of these chapters are to each other. After all, we already apply the same case to characters like Future Warrior, Calem or The Batter.

Now that I said this, I'll prove that Kris, Susie and Ralsei across the Chapters 1, 2, and 3 do not change in power that much to warrant a different key for every chapter, (besides Chapter 4, but that'll be a whole different section, as that'll be hella controversial). What I mean is that the enemies of the Chapters from 1 to 3 are all with a degree of relativity between each other, which is:

• Base Spamton being scared of Jevil's scythe and straight up reffering to him as the "clown" which he described to want to surpass with the NEO body. Considering that Jevil's "games" include fights, and Spamton is scared of Jevil's scythes, which is something he actually uses in the fight, it's pretty clear that Jevil is superior to Spamton strength-wise, especially when Shadow Crystal holders like Jevil are considered to be especially powerful, and that to defeat them is no small feat, and Spamton has obtained it in the NEO body, implying further that he got on Jevil's level by only becoming NEO.
• Lanino and Elnina's last attack is specifically about the combination of "2 celestial bodies", but then a lamp get in their final attack, and later on they say that the addition was weird and unwanted despite making the attack stronger. Now, what's exactly the source of the lamp? It's heavily implied to be Rouxls Kaard, given that he wears the lamp of the exact same shape of the one used in the attack, and Lanino and Elnina complained to have been literally touched from the "lamp", other than the fact that Lanino, Elnina and Rouxls used to be in a triple relationship (lol) and the former 2 calling him weird as well, strongly hinting that's him

What about the Tier for all the first 3 chapters? We have... multiple options.

1. The characters shall become 8-B (48.93 Tons) from Tenna's feat of clapping his hands faster than electricity, which is valid as apparently the wiki makes KE valid if the weight is over 200 kg, and Tenna's arms here are 1400 kg.
2. We downscale the Chapter 1-3 characters from Sound of Justice's Low 7-C feat (5.45 Kilotons) of it swinging its hammer faster than soundwaves on the ground.

Now y'all gonna say: "Strym, why the **** are you taking in a Chapter 4 feat when you just talked about Chapter 1-3?". The answer is simple, Recruit Stats.

Well, we have a very wonderful thing, the recruit stats [ignore Jevil, he's unused as proven in other unhacked videos] which are the (sort of) equivalent of Undertale' Check Stats.

With these recruit stats, we have the following characters being portrayed as being comparable to each other by fighting alongside each other:

• Miss Mizzle, a Mini-Boss, has 28 ATK/DEF. She should defintely be at least comparable to Sound of Justice given that both are Mini-Bosses.
• Winglade (28 ATK) can fight alongside Bibliox (14 ATK) here.
• Balthizard (14 ATK), Mizzle (21 ATK) and Guei (20 ATK) can also fight together.
• Organikk (26 ATK) and Wicabell (14 ATK) can fight together too.
• Pippins (14 ATK) and Shadowguy (13 ATK) can fight together.
• Shuttah (14 ATK) and Zapper (16 ATK) are in a pair too.
• Tasque Manager (11 ATK) magaging to electrocute Rouxls Kaard despite him being able to aid Lanino and Elnina (22 and 21 ATK respectively)

This basically means that all the ATK values between 28 and 11 in Deltarune all scale to the same value, which would include also the mini-bosses of Chapter 4 (especially given that Sound of Justice is not shown as particulairly powerful, as it gets destroyed from few hits from Ralsei).

It also makes so that Mini-Bosses and Fodders from Ch 1 and 4 are all shown to be in the same ballpark, plus as no main boss nor secret boss has recruit stats, so there's nothing really indicating that people like Jevil or Queen would be any inferior to Ch 4 Mini-Bosses, who really seem to be simply "fodders but a bit stronger".

The Sound of Justice feat is in itself contentious, as if you see the calculation, you'd notice that the basis of the feat is the guy swinging a big-ass hammer REAL FAST, like far faster than a whole soundwave. It's contentious however whether these are soundwaves in the air (343 m/s) or in the ground (5500 m/s). Arguments can be made for both cases:

• For the air, the fact that the soundwaves are decipted as the same as when the characters hit something, implying to be the ones in the air.
• For the ground, the fact that the one that SoJ outsped is visibly far faster than the aforementioned ones in the air or also the fact that the same soundwaves generated from steps go between walls, which can happen only in the ground.

The air end ends up as 8-B (21.19 Tons), while the ground end, as said above, ends up as being Low 7-C+ (5.45 Kilotons), and Therefir himself was not sure on what end to use, leaving us to discuss in the CRT. Thus, we can take 3 different paths:

• Option 1: Don't use the ground waves AT ALL, and make the characters only 8-B by scaling from Tenna's 48.93 Tons feat and the 21.19 Tons result as a supportive calculation.
• Option 2: Use the ground waves as a "possibly", similar to how Saitama is currently rated as "4-A, possibly 3-C" off different ends of the same calculation, thus making the characters "8-B, likely Low 7-C"
• Option 3: Use just the ground waves end, and be done with making everyone Low 7-C+.

I have mentioned before the fact that stats from 28 and 11 would be that level. But what about the rest? Well... We have this wonderful statement from Spamton NEO himself, saying that he's got "x3 the firepower" in his new body. For years we've always rejected it being a x3 stat increase from him, when the definition of firepower is the following:

• the capacity (as of a military unit) to deliver effective fire on a target / effective power or force
• the number and size of guns that a military group has available / the ability to destroy things using weapons
• the amount of fire that can be delivered by a particular weapon or military force / the amount of attacking strength that can be brought to bear against an opponent in a contest

I could go on, but I think it's clear that the context hints at it being a x3 multiplier, as Spamton is not having more weapons, here he merged with a big-ass robot after all. Meaning that his statement is definitely talking about a pure strength multiplication.

Considering how this would mean that Base Spamton is 1/3rd of his NEO Self, and Spamton NEO is definitely far stronger than people like Rouxls Kaard or Tasque Manager, the fodders on the level on Base Spamton will be 1/3rd the full tier of the higher characters, those being still 8-B (but 16.31 Tons) and/or Low 7-C (but 1.82 Kilotons).

Also, given how Miss Mizzle, Sound of Justice and Jackenstein will be very important for the scaling, profiles should be made for them.

Though I can understand if the connection between Miss Mizzle and Sound of Justice is wonky, given that both are just "lol mini-bosses" as scaling basis. Because of this, I wouldn't mind making Miss Mizzle and company only "8-B, likely Low 7-C+", even if the latter gets fully accepted for ground waves.

Edit: The air end for Sound of Justice's feat was accepted, and Tenna's feat got recalculated to 472.2621 Tons for his jump and 513.2453 Tons for his clap, making them 8-A.

For the sake of avoiding to make OP even longer, just read this post I made here which explains why Rouxls would still downscale to Tenna. People on base Spamton level instead would be just 171.082 Tons of TNT, which would be still 8-A, and characters who vastly scale above said value (aka Spamton NEO's durability during Bluelight Specil and Noelle's IceShock/Snowgrave) would be 8-A+ by upscaling as the gap is only x1.072.

Spoiler: Chapter 4 (Titan stuff)

This is instead the most controversial part of the CRT by far, so pay attention here to not miss any detail.

So, we know the Titan. A funny big fella.

I think the guy should fully scale to size of the Dark World in Attack Potency. Why is that?

First things first, let's get a timeline of what happened with it:

1. Back in Chapter 2, Berdly tries to make a Dark Fountaim, but Ralsei instantly stops him, saying that if he does that, the Titans will develop from the excessive Dark Fountains, and destroy everything.
2. While there was already another fountain, the Roaring Knight generates a new Dark Fountain, and from that, a Titan emerges, and Ralsei says that they have to climb on the newly formed Fountain, as the Titan "wouldn't attack itself", something that is visually shown by how one of the "eyes" has the same wings the Titan has when more formed.
3. Ralsei described that the Titan as formed when the Dark Fountains become too strong and the flow of darkness runs wild, and that the only way to defeat it is to seal it just like Kris seals Dark Fountains if it's anything like a Fountain.
4. Later in the fight, after that the Titan reveals itself to be effectively invincible due to it being able to spam self-heal + OP shield, Susie and Kris straight up jump inside the Titan and seal it just like they do with Dark Fountains, effectively confirming that Ralsei is right, and that Titans = Dark Fountains.

Now, why would the Titan benefit like anything from this? It's because of the fact that the Dark Fountains are explained to change a room in an illusory version of reality through taking away so much light that it becomes "darker than dark", so dark until that we reach a point where one can start to see things again. This, coupled from multiple statements about Dark Fountains to create, shape and give form to the Dark Worlds from multiple characters (here, here, here and here), and the fact that sealing it causes the world to disappear instantly means that the Titan would actually scale to the full power of the thing, as the Dark Fountains, by just existing, create and shape the existence of the Dark Worlds, and closing a fountain instantly reverts the Dark World back to the room it used to be.

What tier would be given to it? Of course, 7-B as Chapter 2 confirmed that Dark Worlds are at very least able to contain an entire city with fields surrounding it by both statements and visuals (here, here, here, here and here).

But I think it can be higher than that. And what do I mean by that? Well, ladies and gentleman, here we go with 4-A.

The evidence for the Dark Worlds containing starry skies is the following:

• Chapter 1: Castle Town has showcased to have stars, with the respective Nintendo Switch border also having these.
• Chapter 2: Cyber World has star-like dots on the background.
• Chapter 3: TV World has shown to have stars in the background.
• Chapter 4: One of the backgrounds that is showcased from Gerson's window is a starry sky.

Now, I know what you guys are saying already: "Strym, why are you assuming that these are real stars!? Deltarune hasn't shown anything cosmic in its narrative yet, it's a really grounded verse otherwise!"

And indeed, you are right. But, outside that discrediting them being real stars for no reason besides incredulity is dishonest, we have some reasons for them to be real stars:

1. They're hella consistent across the chapters to be present there.
2. The Dark Worlds themselves are already stated to be an illusion, due to everything there being the "shadow" of the Light World counterpart. Saying that the stars are fake would be saying that it's faker than fake, which would be pretty weird.
3. Edit: This is new information that came in the thread, but Elnina implies that the Dark World can have a day/night cycle, which would make more likely than not that the stars actually are real and act as such.

Now, I don't really think that the rating should be fully 4-A, there is indeed the "Moon" which is just a giant-ass baseball in Chapter 2, but you can always argue that the stars in themselves aren't in the same situation of that fake Moon given how consistent they are across chapters. I do think that a simple "7-B, possibly 4-A" should do the trick, given how ambiguous these starry backgrounds are, but I don't think that it should be fully ruled out.

Now, who'd scale to 7-B/4-A?

• Kris, Susie and Ralsei (Chapter 4 only): Pretty obvious why. They can take multiple blows from the Titan, including this big-ass blast, and the only reason why they cannot defeat it by normal means is the aforementioned combo of OP shield and Self-Healing. I mean, its check stats confirm that its DEF is super high (800) with the shield, and super low (0) without it, and the ATK is just 40.
• Gerson: Portrayed as far superior to the playable cast, as he could heavily damage the Titan's shield with a single blow while the Fun Gang could deal only chip damage to it. Supportive points to this are Susie being unable to hit him no matter what, with him also basically teleporting when she said she's gonna be serious, him being the only opponent in the game that can fully react and dodge her Rude Buster, or also him straight up blitzing the Fun Gang, as he prevented Susie to use her items while she was about to do so, or also the Fun Gang reacting to Gerson's attack only when it hits the Titan and not when it was flying towards it.
• The Roaring Knight: Shown as far superior to the playable cast, with them being able to casually incapacitate Susie and Kris in one or few blows, or to easily take down the HPs of Susie and Ralsei members to 1 in also just 2 attacks.
• Titan Spawn: Their Check Stats put their DEF above the Titan's ATK and can harm the Fun Gang members who can damage them too. Plus it's the only Mini-Boss who Ralsei was scared of in both encounters, while stuff like Sound of Justice was not viewed as threat from him as mentioned above.

Considering that I know there'll be a lot of contention with this kind of scaling, I'll answer some expected refutes to it.

Spoiler: Counters and Debunks

Counter: The Titan shouldn't scale to the full extent of the Dark Fountain, as simply being empowered by something does not mean that you scale to the full thing, otherwise blades of grass would scale to the full power of the Sun's light.

Debunk: This is not true, as I've mentioned above, a Titan isn't simply a thing generated and sustained from a Dark Fountain, but it's a Dark Fountain itself, as theorized then proved right from Ralsei.

Counter: It'd be extremely inconsistent for the Titan and Titan Spawn to scale that high compared to the rest of the verse, as not only nothing else in the verse reaches that level even closely, but we have the fact that Balthizard's DEF is equal to the Titan Spawn's ATK, which confirms that they're not supposed to be overwhelmingly stronger than the rest of the verse.

Debunk: First of all, Recruit Stats are not equal to Check stats, if you see them yourself, and we have even an entire blog about these differences as well. Second, I don't think that fodders and mini-bosses in Chapter 4 should scale in any capacity to the main cast, as we can always chime these away as simple game mechanics, especially considering how more serious the theme of the game got in Chapter 4 (Susie going from treating the Dark Worlds as simple new fun adventures to actual threats after that the Roaring Knight has shown up after all). Besides, from how Ralsei has described the Roaring, it's clear that the Titans are absurdly above everything else in the setting, with the surviving Darkners eventually becoming stone, implying that a majority of them would be wiped out in the initial part, and Ralsei says this even after fighting GIGA Queen, who just stomped him and the Fun Gang prior to using the Thrash Machine. While I do get that the Titan's 0 DEF is equal to the Dummy and C Roll's stats, I don't think it's something more than telling that its DEF is far lower when is without the shield, instead of telling that it's literally equal to the Tutorial enemies in durability lol. Edit: Forgot to mention that the only things that'd scale are Gerson, who is a Darkner that is made out of a Lightner's dust, and Ralsei, who is the only Darkner who does not turn to stone for traveling between Dark Worlds that are not his as he's implied to be made out of "pure darkness" which is compatible with any Darkner instead.

Counter: But isn't the Fight Dojo a proof that the fodders are always relative to the Fun Gang no matter the chapter? We can even fight Mike right before the Titan too.

Debunk: The Fight Dojo is a completely non-mandatory mini-game that is made only to gain additional items. To treat it as anything more than a game mechanic is just dumb, especially when Ralsei himself said that he couldn't believe that they've actually defeated a Titan, and it's well known that he has a massive inferiority complex, to the point that he himself does not believe to be worth of having a proper room in his own castle. To treat silly mini-games as having more validity than the actual lore is dumb, same with the Mike fight, which is nothing but a thing put there for comedic purposes than a serious lore addition. And if you think to use the secret bosses as a counter to "non-mandatory = irrelevant", then that's a false equivalence as the secret bosses have all a massive relevance in lore, as shown by Spamton being tied with Tenna and being the mandatory final boss of the Weird Route in Ch 2, the existence of Gerson, or how the Roaring Knight's fight reveals the existence of the Black Shard, which is later brought in Chapter 4.

Counter: Wasn't Susie literally able to crack the Roaring Knight's sword back in Chapter 3?

Debunk: Considering that the Knight has created the sword with their Darkness and was obviously holding back significantly against the Fun Gang, given that they were able to effortlessly blitz and one-shot the playables at any time. Meaning that it's clear that it shouldn't be treated as an anti-feat, as the Knight's sword is made by something that can clearly change its power and durability considerably.

So yeah, I think that settles it.

Lifting Strength​

The Sound of Justice feat that I have mentioned above is also a LS feat given that it involves swinging a hammer real fast, and it's Class G for either the air end (2,262,111 Metric Tons) or ground end (581,635,602 Metric Tons).

To add some more consistency, here's the rest of the accepted LS feats of the new chapters:
Shadowguys bullets KE: 1.38419372003 Tons to 4.54256488714 Tons (Class 5)
Gerson throws his hammer: 695.227211 Tons (Class K)
Kris Protects Susie: 223.6917375Tons (Class K) to 3,586.89375 Tons (Class M)
Gerson Final Attack: 13,208.6694 Tons (Class M)
Wicabel's Bell: 484,400 tons (Class M)

This would mean that anyone who scales to Sound of Justice gets Class G. Otherwise, if we don't assume that Miss Mizzle = SoJ (for anyone who is not in Titan's tier that is ofc), then they'll simply scale to Ralsei's Class K (164.8 Tons) feat (no I don't think anyone scales from Wicabel as that is not done physically).

Same with the Chapter 1-2 fodders on the level of Base Spamton, they'd get an "At most" for whatever thing they'll scale to as they together managed to physically overwhelm the King.

Edit: TBF I think people will straight up be Class G if only the Air end is accepted for the SoJ feat, given that it would be in the same range of the others (lower than Tenna's actually) and SoJ is not portrayed as insanely above the rest in LS.

Speed​

The last thing to discuss, which is also contentious, is the speed of these characters.

I propose that the characters should become FTL, based on these two calculations:

• SOUL moves with light: 0.29c (Relativistic)
• Zapper laser dodge: 0.73c (Relativistic+)
• Jackenstein and light: 2.47c (FTL)

The explanation on why these are actual light are all in the respective calculations.

I believe that everyone should become FTL in a way or another for the same reason why everyone is relative to Chapter 4 fodders even in Ch 1 as explained in the AP part of Chapters 1-3 (I mean, they did manage to overwhelm the Fun Gang in Ch 1), as Jackenstein himself isn't treated as neither particulairly strong or faster than the rest of the Chapter 4 inhabitants, as he describes himself as being bullied from others regulairly for his looks, and the Relativistic calculations are just for support.

The rest of the accepted calculations is the following:

Spoiler: Speed feats list

Tenna Speed: 66.7229132776 m/s
Gerson throws is hammer: 165.876543m/s Subsonic
Vs Bullets: 259.35m/s or Mach 0.75 (Subsonic)
Gerson says no to items: Mach 0.98658055156 (Subsonic+/Transonic)
Gerson Final Attack: Mach 3.36895023149 (Supersonic+)
Pippins Feat: 1813.63636m/s or Mach 5.28756956 (Hypersonic)
Wicabel's Bell: 3842m/s or Mach 11.2 (Hypersonic+)
Kris Protects Susie: Mach 2.0625 (Supersonic) to Mach 33.07215743 (High Hypersonic)
The Justice is made of Sound: Mach 34.82280924 (High Hypersonic) to Mach 558.3832385 (Massively Hypersonic)
Tenna faster than electricity: Mach 49.8010927 (High Hypersonic)

I can see that a jump from High/Massively Hypersonic to FTL is indeed a jump, but not only FTL has few other feats to support it, but there's no real anti-feat against such a speed in the first place, and they did not struggle with stuff that is objectively capped at far less as important parts of the story (plus we have verses that have hig ratings from a single feat too so let's not act as if Deltarune should be treated differently), meaning that them being FTL cannot be called inconsistent.

Vote Tally​

Agree (24, including 4 staff with evaluation rights): TheOrangeGuy09, Edutyn, Ghengiroo115 (everything else), Qurbonboev, Deonment (everything else), Ednaxel2, SnakesCity, Monsters_fight, LittleGuy99, Thelastmlg, Psychomaster35, Pegasus124467, Ti58 (everything else), Anonymous_Learner (everything else), Maniaunavailable (AP stuff only), OrangeFR, Tots_Real (everything else), Hypercyber37, Maverick_Zero_X (everything else), DarkDragonMedeus, Reiner04, Sptflcrw (everything else), Gooldiddy, @Imaginym (with 4-A)

Neutral (3, including 1 staff with evaluation rights): Ghengiroo115 (with 4-A), Maniaunavailable (speed stuff only) Maverick_Zero_X (with 4-A)

Disagree (7): Deonment (with 4-A), Ti58 (with 4-A), Mommyleona (with FTL), Anonymous_Learner (with 4-A), Tots_Real (with 4-A), Sparkive (only about downscaling on the Recruit stats), Sptflcrw (with Spamton NEO being x3 hia base self and Titan scaling from 7-B/4-A physically)

I know there's Light World stuff for new calcs but this has more priority and I think it can be discussed in a separate thread, because my focus rn is the Dark World stuff instead. So, let's discuss, and hope stuff does not go bad.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Agree (I ain’t reading all that to not spoiler anything cuz I’m stuck at Ch2 but still agree!)

 

[Gooldiddy]

could Gerson/Susie's Dual Buster being equivalent damage to Kris with the Black Shard (something the Titan is explicitly weak to) be a point for that scaling chain as well?

 

[StrymULTRA]

could Gerson/Susie's Dual Buster being equivalent damage to Kris with the Black Shard (something the Titan is explicitly weak to) be a point for that scaling chain as well?

It'd be a "far higher" for Susie for her Chapter 4 key, ye.

 

[Edutyn]

agree

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Attack Potency and Durability

Agree with 8-B and don’t mind Low 7-C if other people thinks it checks out.

I’m leaning agreement to 7-B Titan, but am neutral on possibly 4-A (since it’s just a possibly though I ain’t against it).

(I assume that if Dark World level Titan and Low 7-C Sound of Justice aren’t fully accepted, the Chapter 4 cast will instead be scaling to the Titan’s PE calc?)

Lifting Strength

Agree

Speed

Leaning to agree with FTL, but agree with High Hypersonic at least. My thoughts on Massively Hypersonic Sound of Justice are obviously the same as for the AP stuff.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Agree

 

[StrymULTRA]

(I assume that if Dark World level Titan and Low 7-C Sound of Justice aren’t fully accepted, the Chapter 4 cast will instead be scaling to the Titan’s PE calc?)

Titan would definitely be at absolute least Low 7-C from massively upscaling from stuff like GIGA Queen or Sound of Justice, as these are normal Darkners that aren't treated as strong as a Titan by Ralsei.

 

[Deonment]

I agree with most of this, but I disagree with the 4-A end for the titan, I do not think those stars are actual stars compared to being lights in the night sky, esp with what we know of the nature of Dark Worlds, I think they are more than likely analogies for something else (off the top of my head, lightbulbs, fairy lights, or any other lightsource positioned abovehead), rather than them being proper stars in the night sky, especially considering how none of the dark worlds have actually taken place outside, so they wouldn't have real stars to "reference" so to speak

 

[StrymULTRA]

I agree with most of this, but I disagree with the 4-A end for the titan, I do not think those stars are actual stars compared to being lights in the night sky, esp with what we know of the nature of Dark Worlds, I think they are more than likely analogies for something else (off the top of my head, lightbulbs, fairy lights, or any other lightsource positioned abovehead), rather than them being proper stars in the night sky, especially considering how none of the dark worlds have actually taken place outside, so they wouldn't have real stars to "reference" so to speak

That's already covered from the CRT in question.

I do think it's shaky, but you have to take in account that they're pretty consistent across all chapters, as all the Dark Worlds we saw have them. Plus, it's literally a reality warping process that transforms the room in a Light World in the Dark World, obviously stuff does not have to be 1:1 with everything (also because the Cyber World is a computer lab within walls, yet it's a full city with fields outside, so your "they all take place in a room" does not work).

 

[StarShooter80]

Agree ofc!! All seems good

 

[Ti58]

Chapter 2 stars are confirmed fake as they move faster than the backround, implying that they're closer

 

[StrymULTRA]

Chapter 2 stars are confirmed fake as they move faster than the backround, implying that they're closer

I could ditch it as a simple oversight, but noted.

 

[SnakesCity]

I agree with everything! Nice work! And for those skeptical of the 4-A stuff i urge you to consider that aside from being extremely consistent, Dark Worlds are also still full on worlds even when smaller in scope like in Chapter 3 where it's explained that Tenna BUILT everything you see on top of the existing wilderness, it's not a stretch to say that it is possible these worlds would have stars.

 

[Deonment]

That's already covered from the CRT in question.

I do think it's shaky, but you have to take in account that they're pretty consistent across all chapters, as all the Dark Worlds we saw have them. Plus, it's literally a reality warping process that transforms the room in a Light World in the Dark World, obviously stuff does not have to be 1:1 with everything (also because the Cyber World is a computer lab within walls, yet it's a full city with fields outside, so your "they all take place in a room" does not work).

Not really? I'm not saying the stars or fake or what have you, but that they, like the moon in chap 2, are instead versions of something else in the light world analogized into being "stars". I don't think the dark words are one to one (size wise) with the environment they are created in, but I do think that it's more likely that those stars (which differ in how they are presented/designed on a chapter-by-chapter basis, but I don't think that's a point for or against their status of being stars) are just light fixtures or something along those lines.

 

[Ti58]

I agree with everything! Nice work! And for those skeptical of the 4-A stuff i urge you to consider that aside from being extremely consistent, Dark Worlds are also still full on worlds even when smaller in scope like in Chapter 3 where it's explained that Tenna BUILT everything you see on top of the existing wilderness, it's not a stretch to say that it is possible these worlds would have stars.

I don't see how this proves anything. The second link proves that Tenna built things on top of Toriel's kitchen.

 

[Ti58]

That's already covered from the CRT in question.

I do think it's shaky, but you have to take in account that they're pretty consistent across all chapters, as all the Dark Worlds we saw have them. Plus, it's literally a reality warping process that transforms the room in a Light World in the Dark World, obviously stuff does not have to be 1:1 with everything (also because the Cyber World is a computer lab within walls, yet it's a full city with fields outside, so your "they all take place in a room" does not work).

Cyber City is literally computers, their programs etc. that's why it's a city

 

[Monsters_fight]

I agree with everything + Jumbo Josh solos

 

[Ti58]

Also here's a thing, depending on equipment, Winglade and Miss Mizzle's recruit stats can be above the fun gang's

 

[Qurbonboev]

Also here's a thing, depending on equipment, Winglade and Miss Mizzle's recruit stats can be above the fun gang's

Their recruit stats can be higher than Gang shown stats in menu.
I don't think we should compare them directly

 

[Thelastmlg]

Finally my goats gets their well deserved upgrade

Anyway, i agree with scaling most fodder enemies to 1/3 of SoJ, and the 8-B, possibly Low 7-C, as well as scaling the titan fight to 7-B

Also we do we have any mentions of military stuff in DR, cause the titans are world ending threats not only in theory but also when you refuse to come back from death, so you can argue that they are above them and so nukes

But yeah i disagree with 4-A, is a massive upgrade (that would also give them MFTL+ speeds for outrunning darkness) to hinge on basically "they appear a lot", "the exclusive version has its thrme on borders" and "it would be weird (even though chapter 2 already did that)"

1. We lack pretty much any mention about them whatsoever.

2. As pointed out before, it doesn't make sense since dark worlds take place inside of closed spaces, so the selling would be on the way, and even if you wanna argue that dark worlds are more expansious, the scale of turning a room into a city is not in the same magnitude as turning the distance between the floor and the celling into many light years.

3. We already have precedent for them being fake and themed around the dark fountain, with chapter 2's dot sky and fake moon.

4. Honestly it would be kind of a outlier to the rest of the series' feats in general, at least the tier 7 feats are supported by each other and the countless tier 8 ones as well.

So yeah even as a possibly i can't agree with using it, there is just not enough evidence for such a massive upgrade

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think the dark words are one to one (size wise) with the environment they are created in, but I do think that it's more likely that those stars (which differ in how they are presented/designed on a chapter-by-chapter basis, but I don't think that's a point for or against their status of being stars) are just light fixtures or something along those lines.

I am too skeptical about the authenticity of these stars, but the consistency across chapters makes me think that the intent is there from the part of the developers.

(Also nothing really says that the Moon isn't the same size as the irl one besides the fact that it's a baseball, just saying).

Cyber City is literally computers, their programs etc. that's why it's a city

The place is actually called Cyber World not just Cyber City. And Spamton himself makes a difference between the city and the dark world as a whole.

Also here's a thing, depending on equipment, Winglade and Miss Mizzle's recruit stats can be above the fun gang's

I personally don't think that using the playable's stats is good evidence for anything, otherwise we gonna make Winglade, Spamton or Jevil downscale from whatever enemy the Fun Gang can fight regardless of their feats, which is where I draw the line between intended interactions and game mechanics.

(that would also give them MFTL+ speeds for outrunning darkness)

Huh?

to hinge on basically "they appear a lot", "the exclusive version has its thrme on borders" and "it would be weird (even though chapter 2 already did that)"

I mean you're invalidating them because?

1. We lack pretty much any mention about them whatsoever.

So does the Saitama vs Garou feat, or whatever other starry sky feat in fiction.

2. As pointed out before, it doesn't make sense since dark worlds take place inside of closed spaces, so the selling would be on the way, and even if you wanna argue that dark worlds are more expansious, the scale of turning a room into a city is not in the same magnitude as turning the distance between the floor and the celling into many light years.

This is argument from incredulity, as said above it's done by reality warping, so it's not supposed to be 1:1. Cyber World is not a giant room, but a whole city with fields around.

3. We already have precedent for them being fake and themed around the dark fountain, with chapter 2's dot sky and fake moon.

I do not believe that there's hard evidence saying they objectively must be fake though, as I said above.

4. Honestly it would be kind of a outlier to the rest of the series' feats in general, at least the tier 7 feats are supported by each other and the countless tier 8 ones as well.

7-B would also be over x1000 above SoJ feat, and only 7 characters (aka the God Tiers) would scale to it anyway. It's like saying that Tier 2 for Undertale is an outlier because it's Tier 9/8 otherwise.

 

[Gooldiddy]

7-B would also be over x1000 above SoJ feat, and only 7 characters (aka the God Tiers) would scale to it anyway. It's like saying that Tier 2 for Undertale is an outlier because it's Tier 9/8 otherwise.

aren't there also some smaller things that support cosmic sizes/feats in that range? I remember Elnina implying Dark Worlds have a day/night cycle they can see inside it, and the Titans eradicating the earth's surface via incineration would be like 40 exatons from other calcs of that nature

 

[StrymULTRA]

I remember Elnina implying Dark Worlds have a day/night cycle they can see inside it

I did not pay any particular attention to these, but if you can find in the text dump any dialogue hinting at genuine day/night cycles that'd be immensely useful.

and the Titans eradicating the earth's surface via incineration would be like 40 exatons from other calcs of that nature

From the way Ralsei said it, it's implied that the Titans would affect the Light World directly due to the balance of Light and Dark shattering, allowing both sides to "coexist" (something akin to how Hell and the Living Universe were merged in Dragon Ball GT if you get the idea), and it definitely looks overtime from how it's said, as we don't give High 6-A/5-B ratings for any "destroy the world" statements.

 

[Gooldiddy]

I did not pay any particular attention to these, but if you can find in the text dump any dialogue hinting at genuine day/night cycles that'd be immensely useful.

This one I remember

 

[Ti58]

The place is actually called Cyber World not just Cyber City. And Spamton himself makes a difference between the city and the dark world as a whole.

I was specifically talking about the city there

7-B would also be over x1000 above SoJ feat, and only 7 characters (aka the God Tiers) would scale to it anyway. It's like saying that Tier 2 for Undertale is an outlier because it's Tier 9/8 otherwise.

We're already making darkners either 8-B or Low 7-C, that's already a difference of several hundreds of times. 4-A is incomparable to Low 7-C and the difference between these two tiers is about the same as between average human level and solar system level.

I'm also unsure if fodders are about 10^45 times weaker than the fun gang as that kinda makes no sense to me

 

[Deonment]

I am too skeptical about the authenticity of these stars, but the consistency across chapters makes me think that the intent is there from the part of the developers.

(Also nothing really says that the Moon isn't the same size as the irl one besides the fact that it's a baseball, just saying).

Maybe, but I just doubt that they are completely real

(I mean, from a like, material and physics standpoint and stuff, there would be issues with a moon-sized baseball, but that isn't really relevant to my point, it's more so me just using it as an example of something that isn't literally what it seems to be, but is instead analogized with a thing from the light world to create the dark world equivalent, which does create an issue with the feat, because part of the reason why 4-A is 4-A is because you have to overcome a star's GBE under ISL, if it were just something from IRL massively scaled up, it would have a much lower GBE, same with the moon)

It's like saying that Tier 2 for Undertale is an outlier because it's Tier 9/8 otherwise.

That's a bit of a false equivalent due to the fact that there are multiple tier 2 feats in undertale (asriel existing, hypergoner, chara, true reset, etc), but I get what you mean and I agree with it, no matter what end you take it's going to be very much above the rest of the feats they have, it'll be an outlier on either end
I think the feat itself and scaling to it is fine, I just disagree with the 4-A end

aren't there also some smaller things that support cosmic sizes/feats in that range? I remember Elnina implying Dark Worlds have a day/night cycle they can see inside it, and the Titans eradicating the earth's surface via incineration would be like 40 exatons from other calcs of that nature

The latter half of that can quite easily be done by a bunch of tier 7s with rela or FTL speeds overtime, to scale to those you either need a direct feat of such (cough warhammer exterminautus cough), or the statement to make it out that it'll be done all at once (ie "Their flames can burn the world to ash" or something along those lines)

I did not pay any particular attention to these, but if you can find in the text dump any dialogue hinting at genuine day/night cycles that'd be immensely useful.

Yeah it is stated

• The nighttime... the DAYTIME... I saw a big wheel of cheese and...
• I THOUGHT IT WAS HIS FACE!!!

 

[Ti58]

Yeah it is stated

Seam also talks about that but they're clearly talking about the light world Sun and not the dark world. I assume this applies here too.

Also, by the way, 4-A dark worlds also would make soul light MFTL+ due to crossing a 4-A realm in just a few seconds while sealing it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We're already making darkners either 8-B or Low 7-C, that's already a difference of several hundreds of times. 4-A is incomparable to Low 7-C and the difference between these two tiers is about the same as between average human level and solar system level.

I talk about the gap between the God Tiers and the rest.

Baseline 7-B is already absurdly higher than 8-B or also Low 7-C+, the Titan would obliterate people like SoJ regardless of it being 7-B or 4-A.

I'm also unsure if fodders are about 10^45 times weaker than the fun gang as that kinda makes no sense to me

Tbh you really should have arguments that aren't "makes no sense to me", gets too much subjective there.

part of the reason why 4-A is 4-A is because you have to overcome a star's GBE under ISL, if it were just something from IRL massively scaled up, it would have a much lower GBE, same with the moon

This is, again, incredulity + assuming that the conversion must be 1:1 for everything. It's not like Toby Fox is gonna be called a bad writer only because he made the conversions between Light and Dark Worlds not linear.

it'll be an outlier on either end
I think the feat itself and scaling to it is fine, I just disagree with the 4-A end

It's not really an outlier just because it'd cause some scaling "issues" though, I already said above how even 7-B would be super above all the rest.

Yeah it is stated

This would make 4-A more likely then, ye. After all, if Caine gets a "possibly 4-C" because of some day/night cycle, this should apply here too.

Also, by the way, 4-A dark worlds also would make soul light MFTL+ due to crossing a 4-A realm in just a few seconds while sealing it.

Nothing really says they go through all the Dark World though, what?

It's like saying that the big-ass explosions Spamton NEO and Jevil use also cover everything because "they cover the whole screen". Kris is specifically targeting the Dark Fountain and nothing else here.

 

[Deonment]

We're already making darkners either 8-B or Low 7-C, that's already a difference of several hundreds of times. 4-A is incomparable to Low 7-C and the difference between these two tiers is about the same as between average human level and solar system level.

I'm also unsure if fodders are about 10^45 times weaker than the fun gang as that kinda makes no sense to me

If the feat is equally an outlier at 4-A, as it is at 7-B, either the feat isn't valid due to being an outlier, or we continue the debate on if the 4-A end exists

That doesn't really make a difference either, if the feat is 7-B, they still should be completely stonewalling and atomizing every single enemy they encounter, a 100x+ gap and e45 times gap are practically the same to the weaker enemies, they shouldn't be scratching the PCs either way by that logic, at a certain point when saying a feat is an outlier, the utter scale of the gaps present, doesn't really matter, only that they exist, and how you are going to deal with them

Seam also talks about that but they're clearly talking about the light world Sun and not the dark world. I assume this applies here too.

Why would it?
The Cyber World already had its own moon/; what exactly is stopping Castle Town, when both have stars, from having its own sun?

This is, again, incredulity + assuming that the conversion must be 1:1 for everything. It's not like Toby Fox is gonna be called a bad writer only because he made the conversions between Light and Dark Worlds not linear.

I mean, not really, if the moon were made out of like, typical baseball material, its GBE would be massively smaller since it's mass would be smaller, it wouldn't be 5-C, if i were to spitball, I'd prolly put it at like 6-B to low 6-Aish? Same situation but worse with the stars, as the calc that gets starry skys to 4-A drops exponentially, but as I said I don't think this point really matters all too much to whether or not the stars are valid or not

This would make 4-A more likely then, ye. After all, if Caine gets a "possibly 4-C" because of some day/night cycle, this should apply here too.

Eh, feels scuffed (and I disagree with him having that tier considering what i remember seeing of Amazing Digital Circus' sun and moon), but shrug
Edit(Forgot to respond to this):

It's not really an outlier just because it'd cause some scaling "issues" though, I already said above how even 7-B would be super above all the rest.

Yeah and I agree with that (though I worded it poorly), I was saying that the feat is going to be very relevantly above the rest no matter what end you take

 

[Ti58]

I talk about the gap between the God Tiers and the rest.

Baseline 7-B is already absurdly higher than 8-B or also Low 7-C+, the Titan would obliterate people like SoJ regardless of it being 7-B or 4-A.

And I find that weird given the fact that the fodders are obviously far weaker than the Titan but not to THAT extent. SoJ still takes one hit from Ralsei and in other Chapters fodders have been shown to be somewhat comparable to the fun gang.

Tbh you really should have arguments that aren't "makes no sense to me", gets too much subjective there.

there's a bit of a difference between 1000x weaker and 10^45x weaker. Characters do have antifeats for 7-B (like Kris being injured by a fall), but these antifeats get amplified to an incredible amount with 4-A Fun gang

This is, again, incredulity + assuming that the conversion must be 1:1 for everything. It's not like Toby Fox is gonna be called a bad writer only because he made the conversions between Light and Dark Worlds not linear.

It's actually still fairly linear though. In the Chapter 1 dark world, the great door is on the left side and the card castle is on the right side, just like in the light world. It would be incredibly weird to have light years of space for the tiny space between Card Kingdom and the wall in the light world

I tried checking Ralsei's prophecy but I don't think anything there shows if the dark world is 4-A or not.

It's not really an outlier just because it'd cause some scaling "issues" though, I already said above how even 7-B would be super above all the rest.

1000x difference isn't really the same as 10^45x difference.

This would make 4-A more likely then, ye. After all, if Caine gets a "possibly 4-C" because of some day/night cycle, this should apply here too.

Seam also mentions the day-night cycle talking about the sun going down but they're clearly talking about the light world.

Nothing really says they go through all the Dark World though, what?

It's like saying that the big-ass explosions Spamton NEO and Jevil use also cover everything because "they cover the whole screen". Kris is specifically targeting the Dark Fountain and nothing else here.

We know they go through all the Dark World because the dark world is gone.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, not really, if the moon were made out of like, typical baseball material, its GBE would be massively smaller since it's mass would be smaller, it wouldn't be 5-C, if i were to spitball, I'd prolly put it at like 6-B to low 6-Aish? Same situation but worse with the stars, as the calc that gets starry skys to 4-A drops exponentially, but as I said I don't think this point really matters all too much to whether or not the stars are valid or not

I mean the fact that it's still light-years away and these shine brightly like actuals stars do makes me think that they're actually stars if we take them as such and not something like that Moon.

I can get why the Moon can cause issues, but acting as if it must equate to these stars just because they're both celestial bodies seems a reach, especially when other chapters also showcase these as such, and I don't thing a singular thing from a singular chapter should go against a more consistent portrayal.

 

[Ti58]

Why would it?
The Cyber World already had its own moon/; what exactly is stopping Castle Town, when both have stars, from having its own sun?

...By the by, it's growing late, isn't it?
You should hurry home once you finish your business here.
You don't want to get caught when the sun goes down...

 

[Deonment]

I mean the fact that it's still light-years away and these shine brightly like actuals stars do makes me think that they're actually stars if we take them as such and not something like that Moon.

I can get why the Moon can cause issues, but acting as if it must equate to these stars just because they're both celestial bodies seems a reach, especially when other chapters also showcase these as such, and I don't thing a singular thing from a singular chapter should go against a more consistent portrayal.

Eh, I'm still iffy on it, not outright disagreeing, but not fully for it

snip

Meant TV world, but the point still stands, that doesn't invalidate the fact that they could have their own sun and moon, especially when the quote is coming from Elnina in chapter 3, who has actual 0 reason to know about the light world's sun or see it in chapter 3

 

[StrymULTRA]

And I find that weird given the fact that the fodders are obviously far weaker than the Titan but not to THAT extent. SoJ still takes one hit from Ralsei and in other Chapters fodders have been shown to be somewhat comparable to the fun gang.

Fiction obviously is not aware of the gaps between tiers like VSBW uses. There's a reason why Omega Flowey, while Low 2-C, is not infinitely above the normal monsters. The joule values is just how we quantify feats, but they're not a necessary indicator of the in-verse gap.

Also using other chapters is not an argument, they grew stronger and the theme of the story changed there too.

there's a bit of a difference between 1000x weaker and 10^45x weaker. Characters do have antifeats for 7-B (like Kris being injured by a fall), but these antifeats get amplified to an incredible amount with 4-A Fun gang

These anti-feats would also be against 8-B or even 9-A. We are not going to the level of the Kratos downplayers now.

1000x difference isn't really the same as 10^45x difference.

Both would obliterate the stuff beneath them, yours is a non-argument, just incredulity.

We know they go through all the Dark World because the dark world is gone.

The Dark World is gone because the Dark Fountain is no more, not because the light radiated the entire place.

 

[Ti58]

Star-looking things also appear around the dark fountains in Ralsei's Titan prophecy. I don't think these are real though as they appear in front of the surface.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Obviously I agree with everything + Ground Waves End + Possibly 4-A

 

[StrymULTRA]

Star-looking things also appear around the dark fountains in Ralsei's Titan prophecy. I don't think these are real though as they appear in front of the surface.

I don't get why is that supposed to prove anything.

You're just going at big lengths and spam excuses to disprove 4-A at all costs atp.

 

[Deonment]

Star-looking things also appear around the dark fountains in Ralsei's Titan prophecy. I don't think these are real though as they appear in front of the surface.

Those are not in front of the ground/surface, they are against the night sky
Also, that's the light world contextually, not the dark world, and even if it is, it wouldn't really hold much ground on if the stars in the dark world were real or not

 

[Thelastmlg]

TL: DR i now am fine with possibly 4-A but only saw the evidence after replying and disagreeing with your reply, so uuuh scroll down if only that matters lol

=================================

because those argument don't work? I am invalidating them because "they appear a lot" and "them being fake in a fake world is weird" is not evidence of them being real

Saitama vs garou takes place in the real world where the sky obviously real and they punched a hole in it, do we seriously need evidence that the stars in our sky are real?

Every other starry sky feat needs at least something that implies they are real, if they lack it, then i personally don't agree with using them to begin with, this is kind of whataboutism

I mean, i'm not saying that, but even a possibly rating still needs at least some concrete proof beyond just appearance and thinking it would be...a weird route to take >w>

The gap between 7-C and 7-B is not as egregious as a sudden 4-A boost tho, frankly looking back, i don't even see why the fun gang would suddenly go from "8-B, possibly 7-C" to "7-B" to begin with since they had no boost in the narrative, beyond their equipment, they'd be relative to the beginning, and so literally every fodder in the chapter would be 4-A unless you wanna believe they are holding back less than a fraction of their power (including durability since you can die there)

Also the God Tiers in undertale that scale to the tier 2 stuff are considered basically gods powered by the souls which are macguffins far above the rest of the underground, oh and chara who reached the absolute and stuff but they are weird, while the current deltarune god tiers are like, the titans that are genuinely portrayed as eldritch world threatening monsters...and the main cast that got somewhat stronger between chapters

Pretty much every chapter has moments where the characters are clearly not holding back and they still don't stomp everyone, susie treating the chapters as fun adventures before becoming serious doesn’t change anything because she still takes them serious from time to time

And i totally disagree with just waving away the dojo and mike fights as non-canon minigames to justify the cast being quintillions of times stronger than everyone in previous chapters combined out of nowhere, being optional or not doesn't really change anything, a lot of the game's dialogue, lore and items are optional and yet we treat them as important

Also, if you reload back to chapter 4 (something toby himself told us to do) you get the option to go back to the light world for a solo mike fight to not miss it (similar to how you can go back to chapter 3 to fight the knight again and this time get gaster to speed up the retries), so it feels like, even if it is optional, the game really wants you to do this fight one way or the other, so i really can't compare it to the less important dojo fights, and so the issue that we struggle with chapter 3 enemy fodder is there

================================

Regardless of all this, the brought up evidence that dark worlds have a day and night cycle, as well as Seam mentioning an actual sun do actually support real stars being a possibility

Also, besides fighting enemies that are literal darkness, we also escape from those weird dark flea things in chapter 4, and since they are all made of darkness, you could argue that they'd scale to the dark fountains giving shape to the dark worlds in seconds, which is a nice speed feat that's either like hypersonic for city-sized dark worlds and mftl+ for cosmic dark worlds

So now i'm fine with the possibly 4-A rating, but i still think we need to decide on how it will be scaled since i don't think the massive sudden boost is supported in canon

Ofc we can just make everyone possibly 4-A which is funny and cool so i'm not opposed to that, and if you find a way to scale that to the LW you earn bonus MLG points that amount to...something?