• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Upgrade Sinners and Shades (GENSHIN IMPACT)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Furina003 said:
Sure

In fact, the Inazuma incident has proven this, and the Direidyth incident that I explained earlier.

And I Think, We can link the Inazuma incident to the causal loop paradox, where changes in the future or present affect the past.
Click to expand...

Anyway, i decided to rewatch the Inazuma scene longer and there is supposely something about eternity extend to infinity which talk about time. While the book and Furina stuff Voidnether posted still leave some doubt, but look like you guys considered Mavuika or whatever her name is, and her explanation is correct, then i'm fine with Low 2-C.

I remembered i already agreed with Temporal Omnipresent before so...

About 4D HDE, i still don't have strong opinion about it, as i have said in my initial evaluation that for HDE you need to be Space-Time itself to be HDE, standard made it very clear, being one of the two doesn't qualify. And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here

This is my final evaluation, unless there is new stuff you guys haven't bring up
 
Vietthai96 said:
About 4D HDE, i still don't have strong opinion about it, as i have said in my initial evaluation that for HDE you need to be Space-Time itself to be HDE, standard made it very clear, being one of the two doesn't qualify. And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here
Click to expand...
Okay, i'll try to say this nicely.

You're skeptical about the HDE because of the two different rulers of these two concepts: Space (Asmoday) and Time (Istaroth)

They are indeed different entities or characters, but they are naturally complementary and connected.

You don't need to worry about these two characters; you just need to look at their nature.
"Clearly, any rigorously logical mind must recognize that time, like length, width, and height, is a dimension of space. Therefore, time—as part of space—can naturally be conquered."
Click to expand...
↑these are their nature.

And we've said many times that Istaroth embodies the Timeline itself and has complete control over the entire timeline, whether she wants to change it or create a new one.
 
Last edited:
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway, i decided to rewatch the Inazuma scene longer and there is supposely something about eternity extend to infinity which talk about time. While the book and Furina stuff Voidnether posted still leave some doubt, but look like you guys considered Mavuika or whatever her name is, and her explanation is correct, then i'm fine with Low 2-C.

I remembered i already agreed with Temporal Omnipresent before so...

About 4D HDE, i still don't have strong opinion about it, as i have said in my initial evaluation that for HDE you need to be Space-Time itself to be HDE, standard made it very clear, being one of the two doesn't qualify. And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here

This is my final evaluation, unless there is new stuff you guys haven't bring up
Click to expand...
I won’t try and convince you any further since it’s become a slog to debate this topic further but the whole point about Eternalism was to actually prove this interpretation:

Vietthai96 said:
And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here
Click to expand...
 
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway, i decided to rewatch the Inazuma scene longer and there is supposely something about eternity extend to infinity which talk about time. While the book and Furina stuff Voidnether posted still leave some doubt, but look like you guys considered Mavuika or whatever her name is, and her explanation is correct, then i'm fine with Low 2-C.

I remembered i already agreed with Temporal Omnipresent before so...

About 4D HDE, i still don't have strong opinion about it, as i have said in my initial evaluation that for HDE you need to be Space-Time itself to be HDE, standard made it very clear, being one of the two doesn't qualify. And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here

This is my final evaluation, unless there is new stuff you guys haven't bring up
Click to expand...
okay, thank you, there is nothing more to argue 🙏
 
Compliment, connected =/= directly being said thing. I already said it, HDE standard make it clear. You need to be both Space & Time, not simply being a single one of those two. The verse established very clear that both of them are individual entities and act and exist separatedly. You are trying to prove Istaroth and likely Asmoday to be HDE, not Space-Time, because obviously Space-Time is HDE, the sum of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension is 4 dimensions of course, but Istaroth and Asmoday obviously isn't, because you are arguing either a single temporal dimension (Istaroth) to be HDE or likely 3 spatial dimensions (Asmoday) to be HDE

Manipulate timeline isn't matter, 3D dude can manipulate 4D timeline, being temporal omnipresent alone can also do the same

Unless you guys can show me that, affecting Istaroth will affect Asmoday as well and vice versa, that could change thing
 
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway you guys could probably convinces other staff to outvote me in HDE section, well
Click to expand...
It would help us very much if you tagged some of the staffs again here.

Twilight already did that but that was long ago and none of the staffs he tagged came here.
 
Vietthai96 said:
It going to be 20 pages for real if you keep this up lol. One day Hoyoverse CRT will catch up to Dragon Ball in term of pages

Anyway you guys could probably convinces other staff to outvote me in HDE section, well
Click to expand...
Nah its specifically only going to be Genshin CRTs. HSR crts arent like this and HI3 crts are nonexistent because their verse supporters are non existent
 
Vietthai96 said:
Compliment, connected =/= directly being said thing. I already said it, HDE standard make it clear. You need to be both Space & Time, not simply being a single one of those two. The verse established very clear that both of them are individual entities and act and exist separatedly. You are trying to prove Istaroth and likely Asmoday to be HDE, not Space-Time, because obviously Space-Time is HDE, the sum of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension is 4 dimensions of course, but Istaroth and Asmoday obviously isn't, because you are arguing either a single temporal dimension (Istaroth) to be HDE or likely 3 spatial dimensions (Asmoday) to be HDE

Manipulate timeline isn't matter, 3D dude can manipulate 4D timeline, being temporal omnipresent alone can also do the same

Unless you guys can show me that, affecting Istaroth will affect Asmoday as well and vice versa, that could change thing
Click to expand...
Vietthai96 said:
It going to be 20 pages for real if you keep this up lol. One day Hoyoverse CRT will catch up to Dragon Ball in term of pages

Anyway you guys could probably convinces other staff to outvote me in HDE section, well
Click to expand...
Aight, this’ll be the last time I lay out my point cuz this is going nowhere lol:

So, essentially, I am vying that Istaroth and Asmoday are one in essence but differentiated as characters the same way we agree Space and Time are one but we still distinguish them as concepts.

Let’s assume for a moment that Istaroth is just the temporal dimension. In this case, if we are to accept that Space, Time and their dimensions are extensions of each other; Istaroth—being time itself—can only ever extend into space as well. So if A is an extension of B, and Istaroth is B, then A must also be an extension of Istaroth.

This is not “headcanon”—it’s a logical induction, and if you want, it can very easily be put into Syllogism.

Because, like, when you see statements like this:
She was every moment. She was the measure of a thousand winds and the sun and the moon. She was every second of joy, every moment of rage, every instant of longing, every minute of obsession. She was every flash of delirium.
Click to expand...
When we say “She was every second of joy”, does that not also mean she is that joy—at the very least, in an indirect sense? Would the “physical snapshot of joy” not be encompassed as a point into the temporal dimension Istaroth is?

Anyhow, that’s all from me; if you want, you can respond, but I really don’t feel like bothering with this topic until other mods come.
 
She was every moment. She was the measure of a thousand winds and the sun and the moon. She was every second of joy, every moment of rage, every instant of longing, every minute of obsession. She was every flash of delirium.
Click to expand...
I'm fighting the urge to say this is poetic language, flowery statement

Anyway i already said i'm fine with possibly/likely 4D HDE

Edit: i remembered i already said being every moments in time. Temporal Omnipresent already sastified this
 
Vietthai96 said:
Anyway, i decided to rewatch the Inazuma scene longer and there is supposely something about eternity extend to infinity which talk about time. While the book and Furina stuff Voidnether posted still leave some doubt, but look like you guys considered Mavuika or whatever her name is, and her explanation is correct, then i'm fine with Low 2-C.

I remembered i already agreed with Temporal Omnipresent before so...

About 4D HDE, i still don't have strong opinion about it, as i have said in my initial evaluation that for HDE you need to be Space-Time itself to be HDE, standard made it very clear, being one of the two doesn't qualify. And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here

This is my final evaluation, unless there is new stuff you guys haven't bring up
Click to expand...
Ei: Eternity is a concept intimately connected with time. When you begin to touch on eternity, the concept of time becomes murky.
Click to expand...
Traveler: Time was moving forward and backward at the same time.
Click to expand...
As long as it's an infinite snapshot, it shouldn't matter right if time was moving forward and backward at the same time? Just wanted to confirm that yeah

I remember reading the FAQ that it shouldn't matter, but like if time moved forward and backward it doesn't fit both theory (presentism or eternalism)
 
Last edited:
Voidnether said:
As long as it's an infinite snapshot, it shouldn't matter right if time was moving forward and backward at the same time? Just wanted to confirm that yeah
Click to expand...
So as long as time isn't discreet or finite, we assume there is transfinite snapshots of space on time dimension

So time moving in whatever way isn't matter, unless they somehow make time discreeted and not continuous
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Can I have a brief summary?
Click to expand...
Yeah, simply put, I’m proposing HDE 4D and L2C for Istaroth because she is time itself
As has been discussed and accepted, Istaroth possesses temporal omnipresence, for Istaroth is all Time itself, based on the classification standards used [here]. The statement that an entity is the whole concept of time means that it is a character that embodies or constitutes a literal time/spacetime continuum (the whole of the past, present, and future in 3-dimensional space) on a universal scale. It can also be considered for Higher Dimensional Existence (4-D)
Click to expand...
as I explained in the OP. Time is an uncountably infinite set of snapshots of a space. Therefore, Istaroth would qualify for HDE 4D and L2C, since she is not only time itself but also governs all of time, allowing her to create and alter the temporal dimension in its entirety.
Law and destiny are the authority of the heavenly principles. If we discuss the scope of this authority, it is clear that the authority of the heavenly principles applies not only to Teyvat, because the law is universal. Mundana music is a system of destiny heavenly principles that is stated to govern everything in the universe including the concept of time itself. This alone proves that the authority of the heavenly principles is universal. Even the chaos of Mundana music can destroy the universe itself. The Primordial One is the master of Mundana music. Time and space are clearly concepts, and the Shades are concepts themselves and have power over them. Istaroth also can write the story of the world and can change the timeline.
Click to expand...
yeah, I’m going to explain in detail what I’ve understood so far and why I strongly defend HDE 4D Istaroth. after you read this, give me your opinion on whether you agree or disagree, because I’ll include your vote in the CRT.
first, what is the dimension of Time / timeline / spacetime continuum, as explained here:

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

and also explained in here
The Space-time continuum refers to the concept of physics that refers to all the time of a certain space, i.e. the past, present and future of a space . It posits that space and time are not separate and distinct entities, but rather they are interwoven and form a single fabric of reality, called spacetime.

so, the spacetime continuum is a collection of infinite snapshots of space, where each snapshot represents spaces that were originally just a single point, extended into a line, like a series of photos arranged together to create a video. therefore, this is why the spacetime continuum itself is far more superior than H3A space — because L2C is composed of an infinite number of snapshots of H3A space.

asmoday only represents space, such as height, length, and width. the distance between two objects, A and B, is also part of space. so, asmoday merely prepares or establishes that space, as shown in the God Limit trailer, where the space itself is Asmoday’s creation, and it is Istaroth who adds history/time to that space.
so why do istaroth and asmoday both exist if istaroth can also manipulate space? simply put, istaroth doesn’t actually manipulate space, rather, she’s the one who creates the infinite snapshots of the space that asmoday has created. in other words, istaroth cannot directly create space, but she can generate an infinite number of spatial snapshots made by asmoday. this is because istaroth is all of time itself.

therefore, this is also why destroying the timeline grants an L2C tier, because time itself consists of an infinite number of spatial snapshots.
The latter means that all of the three-dimensional space of the universe has to be destroyed or created, at each moment in time. I.e. the entire timeline has to be destroyed.
Note that only direct destruction or creation qualifies. Just destroying the universe at the beginning of time and the rest vanishing due to the resulting causality paradox does not meet the requirements and would only be ranked as 3-A (Universe level).

that’s where the difference between asmoday’s and istaroth’s authorities lies, asmoday only prepares an empty space, while istaroth creates the snapshots of that space, thus forming the timeline or spacetime continuum. this is why she is referred to as time itself, and why she embodies every moment.

if you ask whether istaroth has ever altered space, she clearly has. in the inazuma quest, it’s shown that istaroth created a new dimension of time, one that is rooted in inazuma’s past, which consequently caused that past to change. inazuma, which should have been destroyed in the past, was able to be saved because istaroth helped makoto by using the sacred sakura, whose roots extend into inazuma’s past.

more specifically, this issue has already been discussed in this CRT.
Click to expand...

Actually, I already agree with @Vietthai96 , Because we’ve already discussed those things at length and Vietthai96 agree on L2C and the possibility/likelihood of HDE 4D.
Anyway, i decided to rewatch the Inazuma scene longer and there is supposely something about eternity extend to infinity which talk about time. While the book and Furina stuff Voidnether posted still leave some doubt, but look like you guys considered Mavuika or whatever her name is, and her explanation is correct, then i'm fine with Low 2-C.

I remembered i already agreed with Temporal Omnipresent before so...

About 4D HDE, i still don't have strong opinion about it, as i have said in my initial evaluation that for HDE you need to be Space-Time itself to be HDE, standard made it very clear, being one of the two doesn't qualify. And the differentiate expression is an interpretation that the verse itself didn't implied, instead they actually show Istaroth and Asmoday as individual, separated entities. At best i could be fine with a Possibly/Likely HDE, that is very lenient, tbh here

This is my final evaluation, unless there is new stuff you guys haven't bring up
Click to expand...

But I will still present the previous rebuttal, where the core argument is that there are two separate entities, Asmoday and Istaroth, with Asmoday being space while Istaroth is time. Therefore, Istaroth would not receive HDE 4D, because she represents only time, not the full spacetime continuum.
Compliment, connected =/= directly being said thing. I already said it, HDE standard make it clear. You need to be both Space & Time, not simply being a single one of those two. The verse established very clear that both of them are individual entities and act and exist separatedly. You are trying to prove Istaroth and likely Asmoday to be HDE, not Space-Time, because obviously Space-Time is HDE, the sum of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension is 4 dimensions of course, but Istaroth and Asmoday obviously isn't, because you are arguing either a single temporal dimension (Istaroth) to be HDE or likely 3 spatial dimensions (Asmoday) to be HDE

Manipulate timeline isn't matter, 3D dude can manipulate 4D timeline, being temporal omnipresent alone can also do the same

Unless you guys can show me that, affecting Istaroth will affect Asmoday as well and vice versa, that could change thing
Click to expand...
Vietthai96 said:
Why do you quote the FAQ? i know it, but FAQ again is just another broad guideline to follow; specific verse still need evaluation


This is only true for the progressive flow of time model, where time regulates three dimensions of space to create a continuous flow and creates three distinct regions called the past, present, and future; that's why it is called the space-time continuum, referring to its continuity. Literally following up after the part you quoted is



The FAQ doesn't follow the Eternalist universe, where time is just another extension of space to create a four-dimensional block, where past, present and future exists all at once and are equally real; thus, no past or future exists, only the present, since past also exist and future also exist and are real at the same time. Thus, there is no past and future, because the idea of past and the future is that past is thing that already happened, the future is what potentially going to happen

Unless the verse didn't follow this model, like what you claimed in the previous post, so you are contradicting yourself


The idea of uncountable infinite snapshots applies only to the linear progressive flow of time model, where time is a distinct dimension that regulates space, thus time making a continuous line where all its points contain a snapshot of 3D space. We applied what we called set theory and the continuum hypothesis. Idk how we can applies this to Eternalist (Block) Universe, where time progression is just an illusion, there is no past or future and every snapshot exist at once and is the same present


Again, the term "timeline" only apply to linear progressive flow of time, the usual model, or building block universe


This is just that due to the involvement of time, simply locate something in 3-dimensional coordinate is not good; they need to add time to search

Anyway, from what i see, especially the part about the Sacred Sakura where it is stated to be always here, it seems like the verse follows Eternalism, but the texts Voidneither show us seem like the verse actually follows Presentism. Presentism will never be Low 2-C

So unless someone shred more light on what cosmology of Genshi is supposed to follow, I disagree with this thread, for now

It tooks me 3 hours for this evaluation lol, i really did an extensive research on eternalism just for this thread, time to rest
Click to expand...

Maybe these are the only main points that were discussed, but if there are any mistakes or missing details in my summary, someone else can add to it 🙏
 
Furina003 said:
Yeah, simply put, I’m proposing HDE 4D and L2C for Istaroth because she is time itself

as I explained in the OP. Time is an uncountably infinite set of snapshots of a space. Therefore, Istaroth would qualify for HDE 4D and L2C, since she is not only time itself but also governs all of time, allowing her to create and alter the temporal dimension in its entirety.



Actually, I already agree with @Vietthai96 , Because we’ve already discussed those things at length and Vietthai96 agree on L2C and the possibility/likelihood of HDE 4D.


But I will still present the previous rebuttal, where the core argument is that there are two separate entities, Asmoday and Istaroth, with Asmoday being space while Istaroth is time. Therefore, Istaroth would not receive HDE 4D, because she represents only time, not the full spacetime continuum.



Maybe these are the only main points that were discussed, but if there are any mistakes or missing details in my summary, someone else can add to it 🙏
Click to expand...
Looks good to me then.
 
KingTempest said:
Looks fine to me
Click to expand...
Not KT agreeing with ts
fetchimage
 
It looks like this CRT is finished and accepted. Thank you, the changes will be apply soon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

MSahla
  • Locked
Four Shades Boundary/Conceptual Manipulation
3 4 5
Replies
182
Views
18K
MSahla
MSahla
MSahla
  • Locked
[Genshin] Small Four Shades Addition and Dvalin's LS Upgrade.
Replies
9
Views
857
LoudestProcedure
LoudestProcedure
MSahla
  • Locked
[ACCEPTED] Descender Physiology Page Creation, and Gave It to the Four Shades As Well.
Replies
28
Views
3K
MSahla
MSahla
MSahla
  • Locked
Minor change for the Shades [Genshin Impact]
2
Replies
45
Views
4K
MSahla
MSahla
MSahla
  • Locked
[Genshin] 4-A God-Tiers Upgrade 😰 (🥀)
4 5 6
Replies
214
Views
11K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Back
Top