Upgrade Sinners and Shades (GENSHIN IMPACT)

[SuperNova55555]

?????. What is this even mean?

Typo. Replace “and” for “is”.

 

[Furina003]

?????. What is this even mean?

there is a book that explains that time is part of space

Yes, I'm sorry for bothering you.

but for the last time, I ask for your help to look at this, digenshin has indeed implemented the spacetime continum, and it is necessary to know that Genshin also applies the cosmology block universe/eternalysm where the past and the future run simultaneously, which proves that Istaroth is the past and the future itself.

Yes, thank you for coming. I will include your vote after you come back

Spoiler

「时间。」

顷刻间屋内鸦雀无声,下一秒所有人笑得前仰后合。

「真是不着边际的奇谈怪论!」兰涅医生强忍着笑意,「首先,时间怎么能是空间的一部分呢?」

「您能够脱离时间,独立存在于空间中吗?」

「什么意思?」

「这一个瞬间您还在这里和我交谈,下一个瞬间——————您消失得无影无踪。这可能吗?」他停顿了片刻,仿佛是在等待其他人思考,「很显然,任何思想严谨的人都应当清楚,和长度、宽度、高度一样,时间也是空间的一个维度。因此,时间————————作为空间的一部分———————自然也能够被征服。」
“Time.”

The room fell silent in an instant, only to erupt in laughter the next.

“What utter nonsense!” Dr. Reinier stifled a chuckle. “First off, how could time possibly be part of space?”
“Can you exist independently in space, detached from time?”

“What do you mean?”
“This very instant, you're here conversing with me. The next instant—you vanish without a trace. Is that possible?” He paused briefly, as if giving others time to ponder. "Clearly, any rigorously logical mind must recognize that time, like length, width, and height, is a dimension of space. Therefore, time—as part of space—can naturally be conquered."

 

[Voidnether]

"So, the final answer to the riddle of time is zero."

"Zero is not an answer. Instead, it is another mystery, for the answer cannot be found in the riddle," he said. "The answer to time's riddle is a mirror — or perhaps I should say that this is the answer that is simplest to comprehend. When two mirrors face each other, time is the infinite reflection of light therein. Countless diverging, converging, and parallel lights form the illusion we call time. There is no past or future, for the past is the future. As you stand here at Moment Zero and look forward along the gap between the two mirrors, all beams of light fall along the same plane, and not one may escape. The Palais Mermonia had already sunk long before it was ever built, and the sunken Palais will be raised anew. Joy, sorrow, tears, and death must infinitely recur, for this is the nature of a mirror. Similarly, you can never conquer time, just as you can never grasp your shadow in your hand."

Perhaps it was horror or momentary frenzy, but when he finished, I whipped out the firearm I kept for self-defense, leveled it at his head, and pulled the trigger. <- My honest reaction

The room was silent.

"I do not expect you to believe me," Ciric said as he stood up, his eyes sweeping the room. "Just take it as a bunch of bunk that I made up to cover up for my inability to make a time machine. Make of it some lame tale, a dream born purely of delusion. In any case, ladies and gentlemen, I shall take my leave of you — my future self awaits a riddle that I must set him."

I never saw Ciric Neven again. - Volume 3

A Fontainian science fiction novel published by The Steambird. It tells the story of an engineer's travels using a time machine — Literally the description of the book across all of the volumes, all of the three volumes

The story's premise of dinner party guests being regaled by the inventor of time travel with their experiences may be inspired by the novella The Time Machine written by H. G. Wells.

Observable sized universe ≠ Low 2-C
Past is the future = Low 2-C
Keep it going

 

[Furina003]

Observable sized universe ≠ Low 2-C
Past is the future = Low 2-C
Keep it going

understand the book, the book is science fiction which means there is science and there is fiction, fiction is when he explores space time because it is just his imagination, but when he talks about space time it is science that already exists in the world of genshin, even mavuka explains this
, btw since when does l2c have to have infinite space??

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The argument is that Asmoday and Istaroth exist in union in their “true form” as [Space-Time] whereas they are differentiated as manifestations (the anime girls) the same way we commonly differentiate Space and Time even while admitting they are a single whole. So both Asmoday and Istaroth are Space-Time intrinsically but express each other differently.

That definitely isn’t what the supporters were arguing.

Regardless, I guess I can agree with that explanation. Even so, no one else should be scaling from them. I don’t see why we should necessarily assume Neuvillette is Low 2-C when his powers have nothing to do with spacetime, and it would still be presupposing that the dragons match the power of two shades combined.

 

[Vietthai96]

Typo. Replace “and” for “is”.

I'm dying with typo

How time being an extension of space is beyond me.

But anyway as i have said, you only be HDE by being space-time itself, the sum of space and time make you HDE, not space or time alone individually, and the verse made it clearly that Istaroth being Time only and Asmoday beinh Space only, they are complimenting each other doesn't matter, like space do not make time a higher dimension, it is its own axis of direction, it is the sum of space and time make space-time a higher dimensional construct.

And there are the thing about Istaroth being concept of time and Asmody being concept of Space

Observable sized universe ≠ Low 2-C
Past is the future = Low 2-C
Keep it going

So from what i saw, there is no past and the future?. And the past is the future itself?.

I'm dying even more, this going to be 10+ pages i swear

 

[Furina003]

So from what i saw, there is no past and the future?. And the past is the future itself?.

I'm dying even more, this going to be 10+ pages i swear

it is necessary to know that Genshin also applies the cosmology block universe/eternalysm where the past and the future run simultaneously, which proves that Istaroth is the past and the future itself. that 4d

 

[SuperNova55555]

That definitely isn’t what the supporters were arguing.

Regardless, I guess I can agree with that explanation. Even so, no one else should be scaling from them. I don’t see why we should necessarily assume Neuvillette is Low 2-C when his powers have nothing to do with spacetime, and it would still be presupposing that the dragons match the power of two shades combined.

Agree with this.

I'm dying with typo

How time being an extension of space is beyond me.

But anyway as i have said, you only be HDE by being space-time itself, the sum of space and time make you HDE, not space or time alone individually, and the verse made it clearly that Istaroth being Time only and Asmoday beinh Space only, they are complimenting each other doesn't matter, like space do not make time a higher dimension, it is its own axis of direction, it is the sum of space and time make space-time a higher dimensional construct.

And there are the thing about Istaroth being concept of time and Asmody being concept of Space


So from what i saw, there is no past and the future?. And the past is the future itself?.

I'm dying even more, this going to be 10+ pages i swear

This is referencing the Eternalist (Block) universe.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Um, nobody aside from Phanes and maybe Nibelung(?) should scale to Low 2-C, because as Berny said, we’re arguing that Low 2-C is Space-Time itself and not merely the manifestations of the Shades

 

[Furina003]

Um, nobody aside from Phanes and maybe Nibelung(?) should scale to Low 2-C, because as Berny said, we’re arguing that Low 2-C is Space-Time itself and not merely the manifestations of the Shades

actually i'm more into defending the HDE of the shades

 

[Vietthai96]

it is necessary to know that Genshin also applies the cosmology block universe/eternalysm where the past and the future run simultaneously, which proves that Istaroth is the past and the future itself. that 4d

Agree with this.


This is referencing the Eternalist (Block) universe.

Did i remember another block universe theory?

Though tbf i didn't know about this theory until now

But anyway, from what i saw, look like the verse do referenced Eternlist universe, but the universe is 14 billion years old implied a passage of time which go against Eternalist universe where there is no passage of time, and the fact that light years exist in this mean General Relativity. This is confusing

Anyway i could see Low 2-C via Eternalist universe but i don't have strong opinion about this.

HDE is still not qualify to me, because Eternalist universe or not, you still need to be the total four dimensional space-time block, not being time or space only; It doesn't help that in Eternalist universe, time is just another dimension. It is actually easier in conventional model where three dimensions of space is modulated by time thus if nothing against it, time is 4D by default because our wiki will default assuming that time will regulated three dimensions of space with its flow

Edit: Also you guys hasn't address my argument about Istaroth (and Asmoday) being conceptual entity which disqualify them being physical dimensions

 

[SuperNova55555]

But anyway, from what i saw, look like the verse do referenced Eternlist universe, but the universe is 14 billion years old implied a passage of time which go against Eternalist universe where there is no passage of time, and the fact that light years exist in this mean General Relativity. This is confusing

Time “passes” but merely that the future and past already exist instead of only “potentially existing”, therefore time gets extrapolated as an extension of space

HDE is still not qualify to me, because Eternalist universe or not, you still need to be the total four dimensional space-time block, not being time or space only; It doesn't help that in Eternalist universe, time is just another dimension. It is actually easier in conventional model where three dimensions of space is modulated by time thus if nothing against it, time is 4D by default because our wiki will default assuming that time will regulated three dimensions of space with its flow

Read my explanation above. Asmoday and Istaroth would be the same in essence (as “Space-Time”)

 

[Vietthai96]

Read my explanation above. Asmoday and Istaroth would be the same in essence (as “Space-Time”)

Can Istaroth manipulate Space?

Can Asmoday manipulate Time?

And still not address my argument about them being conceptual entity

 

[SuperNova55555]

Can Istaroth manipulate Space?

Can Asmoday manipulate Time?

Pretty sure Istaroth does so in a way by creating timelines, but it’s kind of irrelevant since I already established they’d be different expressions of the same whole.

And still not address my argument about them being conceptual entity

I don’t even believe they have CM2 or whatever. In that, they don’t even fit the standard; it’s js that they vaguely have it for some reason because we are extremely lenient on the hax

Um, they’d be merely abstractions of some material constant, or just representations of it, that is.

 

[Furina003]

Can Istaroth manipulate Space?

Can Asmoday manipulate Time?

And still not address my argument about them being conceptual entity

Yes, when time is changed, the world also changes. This has been seen in the Inazuma quest, where Istaroth adds a new time dimension and Inazuma's past is completely changed. Current events affect 500 years of the past, which strengthens that Istaroth is the past, present, and future itself.

 

[Furina003]

Can Istaroth manipulate Space?

Can Asmoday manipulate Time?

And still not address my argument about them being conceptual entity​

yeah, I’m going to explain in detail what I’ve understood so far and why I strongly defend HDE 4D Istaroth. after you read this, give me your opinion on whether you agree or disagree, because I’ll include your vote in the CRT.
first, what is the dimension of Time / timeline / spacetime continuum, as explained here:

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

and also explained in here
The Space-time continuum refers to the concept of physics that refers to all the time of a certain space, i.e. the past, present and future of a space . It posits that space and time are not separate and distinct entities, but rather they are interwoven and form a single fabric of reality, called spacetime.

so, the spacetime continuum is a collection of infinite snapshots of space, where each snapshot represents spaces that were originally just a single point, extended into a line, like a series of photos arranged together to create a video. therefore, this is why the spacetime continuum itself is far more superior than H3A space — because L2C is composed of an infinite number of snapshots of H3A space.

asmoday only represents space, such as height, length, and width. the distance between two objects, A and B, is also part of space. so, asmoday merely prepares or establishes that space, as shown in the God Limit trailer, where the space itself is Asmoday’s creation, and it is Istaroth who adds history/time to that space.
so why do istaroth and asmoday both exist if istaroth can also manipulate space? simply put, istaroth doesn’t actually manipulate space, rather, she’s the one who creates the infinite snapshots of the space that asmoday has created. in other words, istaroth cannot directly create space, but she can generate an infinite number of spatial snapshots made by asmoday. this is because istaroth is all of time itself.

therefore, this is also why destroying the timeline grants an L2C tier, because time itself consists of an infinite number of spatial snapshots.
The latter means that all of the three-dimensional space of the universe has to be destroyed or created, at each moment in time. I.e. the entire timeline has to be destroyed.
Note that only direct destruction or creation qualifies. Just destroying the universe at the beginning of time and the rest vanishing due to the resulting causality paradox does not meet the requirements and would only be ranked as 3-A (Universe level).

that’s where the difference between asmoday’s and istaroth’s authorities lies, asmoday only prepares an empty space, while istaroth creates the snapshots of that space, thus forming the timeline or spacetime continuum. this is why she is referred to as time itself, and why she embodies every moment.

if you ask whether istaroth has ever altered space, she clearly has. in the inazuma quest, it’s shown that istaroth created a new dimension of time, one that is rooted in inazuma’s past, which consequently caused that past to change. inazuma, which should have been destroyed in the past, was able to be saved because istaroth helped makoto by using the sacred sakura, whose roots extend into inazuma’s past.

more specifically, this issue has already been discussed in this CRT.

please share your opinion, this is my last argument, and I’ll input your vote in the CRT. Thank you


​

 

[Vietthai96]

Okay, my ass is finally back at home, in front of my PC

Pretty sure Istaroth does so in a way by creating timelines, but it’s kind of irrelevant since I already established they’d be different expressions of the same whole.

You didn't establish anything; you're just interpreting. Unless you actually show some in-game evidence suggest this

I don’t even believe they have CM2 or whatever. In that, they don’t even fit the standard; it’s js that they vaguely have it for some reason because we are extremely lenient on the hax

I'm only arguing based on what was accepted, so...

Um, they’d be merely abstractions of some material constant, or just representations of it, that is.

Abstraction is still non-physical; it can't be physical dimension, except in some special cases

yeah, I’m going to explain in detail what I’ve understood so far and why I strongly defend HDE 4D Istaroth. after you read this, give me your opinion on whether you agree or disagree, because I’ll include your vote in the CRT.
first, what is the dimension of Time / timeline / spacetime continuum, as explained here:

The relationship between the spatial dimensions of a universe and the additional temporal dimension(s) may be visualized as something akin to the frames of a movie placed side-by-side. Basically, the time-like direction may be thought of as a line comprised of uncountably infinitely many points, each of which is a static "snapshot" of the whole universe at any given moment, with the set of all such events comprising the totality of spacetime.

and also explained in here
The Space-time continuum refers to the concept of physics that refers to all the time of a certain space, i.e. the past, present and future of a space . It posits that space and time are not separate and distinct entities, but rather they are interwoven and form a single fabric of reality, called spacetime.

so, the spacetime continuum is a collection of infinite snapshots of space, where each snapshot represents spaces that were originally just a single point, extended into a line, like a series of photos arranged together to create a video. therefore, this is why the spacetime continuum itself is far more superior than H3A space — because L2C is composed of an infinite number of snapshots of H3A space.

Why do you quote the FAQ? i know it, but FAQ again is just another broad guideline to follow; specific verse still need evaluation

so, the spacetime continuum is a collection of infinite snapshots of space, where each snapshot represents spaces that were originally just a single point, extended into a line, like a series of photos arranged together to create a video. therefore, this is why the spacetime continuum itself is far more superior than H3A space — because L2C is composed of an infinite number of snapshots of H3A space.

This is only true for the progressive flow of time model, where time regulates three dimensions of space to create a continuous flow and creates three distinct regions called the past, present, and future; that's why it is called the space-time continuum, referring to its continuity. Literally following up after the part you quoted is

In this view, events in the universe are not just located in space, they also occur at a specific point in time. Additionally, the presence of matter and energy can cause curvatures in spacetime, leading to the phenomenon of gravity. This concept is crucial to our understanding of the universe and is used in theories like Einstein's theory of general relativity to explain various physical phenomena like black holes, gravitational waves, and the behavior of massive objects in the cosmos.

The FAQ doesn't follow the Eternalist universe, where time is just another extension of space to create a four-dimensional block, where past, present and future exists all at once and are equally real; thus, no past or future exists, only the present, since past also exist and future also exist and are real at the same time. Thus, there is no past and future, because the idea of past and the future is that past is thing that already happened, the future is what potentially going to happen

Unless the verse didn't follow this model, like what you claimed in the previous post, so you are contradicting yourself

asmoday only represents space, such as height, length, and width. the distance between two objects, A and B, is also part of space. so, asmoday merely prepares or establishes that space, as shown in the God Limit trailer, where the space itself is Asmoday’s creation, and it is Istaroth who adds history/time to that space.
so why do istaroth and asmoday both exist if istaroth can also manipulate space? simply put, istaroth doesn’t actually manipulate space, rather, she’s the one who creates the infinite snapshots of the space that asmoday has created. in other words, istaroth cannot directly create space, but she can generate an infinite number of spatial snapshots made by asmoday. this is because istaroth is all of time itself.

The idea of uncountable infinite snapshots applies only to the linear progressive flow of time model, where time is a distinct dimension that regulates space, thus time making a continuous line where all its points contain a snapshot of 3D space. We applied what we called set theory and the continuum hypothesis. Idk how we can applies this to Eternalist (Block) Universe, where time progression is just an illusion, there is no past or future and every snapshot exist at once and is the same present

therefore, this is also why destroying the timeline grants an L2C tier, because time itself consists of an infinite number of spatial snapshots.
The latter means that all of the three-dimensional space of the universe has to be destroyed or created, at each moment in time. I.e. the entire timeline has to be destroyed.
Note that only direct destruction or creation qualifies. Just destroying the universe at the beginning of time and the rest vanishing due to the resulting causality paradox does not meet the requirements and would only be ranked as 3-A (Universe level).

Again, the term "timeline" only apply to linear progressive flow of time, the usual model, or building block universe

that’s where the difference between asmoday’s and istaroth’s authorities lies, asmoday only prepares an empty space, while istaroth creates the snapshots of that space, thus forming the timeline or spacetime continuum. this is why she is referred to as time itself, and why she embodies every moment.

if you ask whether istaroth has ever altered space, she clearly has. in the inazuma quest, it’s shown that istaroth created a new dimension of time, one that is rooted in inazuma’s past, which consequently caused that past to change. inazuma, which should have been destroyed in the past, was able to be saved because istaroth helped makoto by using the sacred sakura, whose roots extend into inazuma’s past.

it’s shown that istaroth created a new dimension of time

time added a whole new dimension for our search. Simply establishing a location was not sufficient

This is just that due to the involvement of time, simply locate something in 3-dimensional coordinate is not good; they need to add time to search

Anyway, from what i see, especially the part about the Sacred Sakura where it is stated to be always here, it seems like the verse follows Eternalism, but the texts Voidneither show us seem like the verse actually follows Presentism. Presentism will never be Low 2-C

So unless someone shred more light on what cosmology of Genshi is supposed to follow, I disagree with this thread, for now

It tooks me 3 hours for this evaluation lol, i really did an extensive research on eternalism just for this thread, time to rest

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Bruh 10 ahh pages of chitchat with no conclusion yet, now i forgot where i left.

 

[SuperNova55555]

You didn't establish anything; you're just interpreting. Unless you actually show some in-game evidence suggest this

• Istaroth and Asmoday appear as two separate characters
• Space and Time are one
• Therefore, they must be unified in one sense, but separate in another.

Ts is but basic induction.

Abstraction is still non-physical; it can't be physical dimension, except in some special cases

I’m not saying that the temporal dimension is some abstraction. Merely that Istaroth might be one that represents the temporal dimension. Like you alr know I don’t think CM is valid. And even if she were conceptual, there’s no issue with a character being both the universal and the whole of it’s particulars.

 

[Furina003]

Why do you quote the FAQ? i know it, but FAQ again is just another broad guideline to follow; specific verse still need evaluation

FAQ is our standard for understanding what time is, so that we can differentiate between space and time, space is a photo, time is a collection of these photos so that they become a video, I have explained to you about the difference in authority between Asmoday and Istaroth, right?

This is only true for the progressive flow of time model, where time regulates three dimensions of space to create a continuous flow and creates three distinct regions called the past, present, and future; that's why it is called the space-time continuum, referring to its continuity. Literally following up after the part you quoted is

we have to understand the difference eternalism, we just pass through it and the future still exists even though we haven't arrived at that time, that's eternalism, according to Mavuika's explanation that I gave you before, unlike spacetime in general, where the past will disappear and the future doesn't exist yet, eternalism is not like that.

The FAQ doesn't follow the Eternalist universe, where time is just another extension of space to create a four-dimensional block, where past, present and future exists all at once and are equally real; thus, no past or future exists, only the present, since past also exist and future also exist and are real at the same time. Thus, there is no past and future, because the idea of past and the future is that past is thing that already happened, the future is what potentially going to happen

Unless the verse didn't follow this model, like what you claimed in the previous post, so you are contradicting yourself

eternaylsm is also like that, the blocks are arranged but do not disappear when they have passed and the blocks of the future are also as real as the present but we do not have the power to access them, so another name for this theory is block universe

The idea of uncountable infinite snapshots applies only to the linear progressive flow of time model, where time is a distinct dimension that regulates space, thus time making a continuous line where all its points contain a snapshot of 3D space. We applied what we called set theory and the continuum hypothesis. Idk how we can applies this to Eternalist (Block) Universe, where time progression is just an illusion, there is no past or future and every snapshot exist at once and is the same present


Again, the term "timeline" only apply to linear progressive flow of time, the usual model, or building block universe

the same thing happens in genshin, time is also in the form of blocks in the universe that's why we can meet direidyth from the past in different spacetime

This is just that due to the involvement of time, simply locate something in 3-dimensional coordinate is not good; they need to add time to search

Anyway, from what i see, especially the part about the Sacred Sakura where it is stated to be always here, it seems like the verse follows Eternalism, but the texts Voidneither show us seem like the verse actually follows Presentism. Presentism will never be Low 2-C

So unless someone shred more light on what cosmology of Genshi is supposed to follow, I disagree with this thread, for now

It tooks me 3 hours for this evaluation lol, i really did an extensive research on eternalism just for this thread, time to rest

no, mavuika has explained it in detail and according to eternalysm.

Yeah, I've presented all my arguments.
You asked if space and time in Genshin are one entity. Well, I answered with quite relevant evidence that states time is a spatial dimension.
I have also explained the difference in authority between Asmoday and Istaroth, Asmoday only creates space, while Istaroth is a snapshot of that space/timeline.
destroying the entire timeline gets l2c but why doesn't the existence that embodies the entire timeline get hde 4d?
the inazuma case is an example of time affecting space, because istaroth only added 1 time dimension, and the past was completely changed

As I said earlier, this was my last argument to defend HDE and L2C, but you still don't agree, its ok, I will count your votes on CRT. So now I will stop arguing and wait for 1 more staff vote. Thank you for coming to CRT with these 9 pages

 

[Vietthai96]

You asked if space and time in Genshin are one entity. Well, I answered with quite relevant evidence that states time is a spatial dimension.

It seems like time is inferior to space, as it is not even an extension, just a part of space, which make it inferior to space, while Low 2-C need time
to be superior to space

I already see Eternalism, but what Voidneither posted also means Presentism, which can never be Low 2-C, that is the problem, so I already made my question: what exactly is the model that Genshin follows? , it can't be Building Block Universe of course

So for now, just list me as disagree

 

[Furina003]

It seems like time is inferior to space, as it is not even an extension, just a part of space, which make it inferior to space, while Low 2-C need time
to be superior to space

I already see Eternalism, but what Voidneither posted also means Presentism, which can never be Low 2-C, that is the problem, so I already made my question: what exactly is the model that Genshin follows? , it can't be Building Block Universe of course

Yeah, for now I understand that the Genshin universe indeed applies eternalism, because the three times (past, present, and future) exist simultaneously but in different space-times. So time itself is still a snapshot of space, but these snapshots do not disappear when they have already become the past, and the future already exists even though we have not yet reached that time.

So for now, just list me as disagree

I've done it, thanks

 

[SuperNova55555]

It seems like time is inferior to space, as it is not even an extension, just a part of space, which make it inferior to space, while Low 2-C need time
to be superior to space

I already see Eternalism, but what Voidneither posted also means Presentism, which can never be Low 2-C, that is the problem, so I already made my question: what exactly is the model that Genshin follows? , it can't be Building Block Universe of course

So for now, just list me as disagree

You are aware that VSBW uses Eternalism, no? (Well, at least this one, bare minimum) The film analogy in the wiki necessitates that every snapshot has proper substantiality, otherwise the temporal dimension quite literally has no size. So to say “time is inferior to space” is a bit strange, when it is merely the descriptor and unifier of all spatial snapshots.

 

[Vietthai96]

You are aware that VSBW uses Eternalism, no?

Yes, after I dig deeper into it

The film analogy in the wiki necessitates that every snapshot has proper substantiality, otherwise the temporal dimension quite literally has no size.

Yes, but time isn't defined by size but by its length

So to say “time is inferior to space” is a bit strange, when it is merely the descriptor and unifier of all spatial snapshots.

I just based it on what the statement tells me; but anyway i could see where you come from

Yeah, for now I understand that the Genshin universe indeed applies eternalism, because the three times (past, present, and future) exist simultaneously but in different space-times. So time itself is still a snapshot of space, but these snapshots do not disappear when they have already become the past, and the future already exists even though we have not yet reached that time.

Eternalism is just the past, and the future exists and is real, so yeah

Anyway, before anyone jumps on my ass, I disagree due to Voidneither stuff which is pretty much Presentism.

Edit: I'm going to carry my ass to my bed; it is midnight time so don't expect me to reply

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yes, after I dig deeper into it

It could technically still work with the other temporal theory I linked since the cardinality would still be the same as Eternalism but my main point in that message is just that there’s no definite superiority between the two concepts as they connect with each other.

In a sense, it’d be like saying that “a line is inferior to points because it depends on then”. But this is such an arbitrary superiority that it needs no mention here, plus the opposite can also be understood in various ways.

Anyway, before anyone jump on my ass, i disagree due to Voidneither stuff which is pretty much Presentism.

I’ll leave this to the supporters to argue, but really all you need to show is that there are things that exist in two different points in time like anywhere in the whole story.

 

[Furina003]

Anyway, before anyone jumps on my ass, I disagree due to Voidneither stuff which is pretty much Presentism.

Presentism, I don't think it fits with Mavuika's explanation.

Mavuika: They demonstrate the true shape of time.
Paimon: The shape of... time?
Mavuika: Most people perceive time as a linear concept, almost like a straight line that can only move forward. We cannot change the past or predict the future.
Mavuika: But, there's also a different theory, one that I believe to be closer to the truth. Namely, that the "past," "present," and "future" all exist at once.
Paimon: A—At once? Paimon's not sure she understands...
Mavuika: Let's say your journey ended right now. Thinking back on your experience in each nation, which one would you say was the most important? I'd have to say all of them.
Mavuika: Exactly. Even at the end of your journey, the things you experienced along the way don't cease to exist. They become part of who you are.
Mavuika: Take out a portion of that journey, and you would likely make very different decisions, and eventually arrive at a very different destination.
Mavuika: The future is the same way. It exists even though it has yet to come to pass. We just lack the means to perceive it.
Mavuika: Of course, there are those with the power to foresee the future. They simply call it by a different name — "fate." You're quite familiar with that concept, I would imagine...
Paimon: That does kinda make sense! The future hasn't happened, but it already exists...
Mavuika: Humanity excels at living in the present, but too often, we forget the past and neglect the future.

 

[Vietthai96]

Presentism, I don't think it fits with Mavuika's explanation.

Mavuika: They demonstrate the true shape of time.
Paimon: The shape of... time?
Mavuika: Most people perceive time as a linear concept, almost like a straight line that can only move forward. We cannot change the past or predict the future.
Mavuika: But, there's also a different theory, one that I believe to be closer to the truth. Namely, that the "past," "present," and "future" all exist at once.
Paimon: A—At once? Paimon's not sure she understands...
Mavuika: Let's say your journey ended right now. Thinking back on your experience in each nation, which one would you say was the most important? I'd have to say all of them.
Mavuika: Exactly. Even at the end of your journey, the things you experienced along the way don't cease to exist. They become part of who you are.
Mavuika: Take out a portion of that journey, and you would likely make very different decisions, and eventually arrive at a very different destination.
Mavuika: The future is the same way. It exists even though it has yet to come to pass. We just lack the means to perceive it.
Mavuika: Of course, there are those with the power to foresee the future. They simply call it by a different name — "fate." You're quite familiar with that concept, I would imagine...
Paimon: That does kinda make sense! The future hasn't happened, but it already exists...
Mavuika: Humanity excels at living in the present, but too often, we forget the past and neglect the future.

It doesn't fit Mavuika's explanation, but you are handwaving what Voidnether posted, which indicated Presentism, so what is going on here??

 

[Furina003]

It doesn't fit Mavuika's explanation, but you are handwaving what Voidnether posted, which indicated Presentism, so what is going on here??

the past is the future? Yes, that's what Mavuika explained, mavuika clarifies this, as the book was released in patch 4.x, mavuika's explanation is in patch 5.x
The past exists alongside the future, meaning the past will always be there and will not disappear, and the future already exists even though we haven't reached it yet. Okay, this discussion is over. I've also counted your votes. Thank you.

 

[Vietthai96]

the past is the future? Yes, that's what Mavuika explained, mavuika clarifies this, as the book was released in patch 4.x, mavuika's explanation is in patch 5.x
The past exists alongside the future, meaning the past will always be there and will not disappear, and the future already exists even though we haven't reached it yet. Okay, this discussion is over. I've also counted your votes. Thank you.

even though i said I would not reply, but shit you replied too fast

Anyway, the thing is, the book itself said
1. The past is the future, but there is no past, so the past is the future" means there is also no future.............
2. Time is zero and trying to catch it is like trying to grab shadow, which imply time not really exist
3. Seem like can't time travel

Well, sleep for real now

 

[SuperNova55555]

It doesn't fit Mavuika's explanation, but you are handwaving what Voidnether posted, which indicated Presentism, so what is going on here??

What’s the proof? The science-fiction book?

 

[Furina003]

even though i said I would not reply, but shit you replied too fast

Anyway, the thing is, the book itself said
1. The past is the future, but there is no past, so the past is the future" means there is also no future.............
2. Time is zero and trying to catch it is like trying to grab shadow, which imply time not really exist
3. Seem like can't time travel

Yes, that has been denied by Mavuika because Mavuika explained the opposite, and patch 5.7, Direidyth from the past who is present in the present but in a different time space, proving that the past has always existed, that the past, present, and future all exist simultaneously (nothing is "gone" or "not yet existing").. So I don't think it's presentism because presentism means there is no past and future, there is only the present.

Well, sleep for real now

I also want to sleep

 

[oberon]

doesnt the sacred sakura shenanigans already solidify that past present and future exist simultaneously?

 

[MSahla]

doesnt the sacred sakura shenanigans already solidify that past present and future exist simultaneously?

someone is trying to make a fictional book as literal as possible.

 

[Voidnether]

What’s the proof? The science-fiction book?

someone is trying to make a fictional book as literal as possible.

understand the book, the book is science fiction which means there is science and there is fiction, fiction is when he explores space time because it is just his imagination, but when he talks about space time it is science that already exists in the world of genshin, even mavuka explains this

The quote above is what Furina said, unless you guys want to discard the Volume 3 — It literally means that the one in Volume 1 should also be discarded, it depends on you guys honestly. It is as simple as that

 

[MSahla]

We have to differentiate which one is fictional and which one is common knowledge in that book.

This one right here

"There is no past or future, for the past is the future"

is just a flowery words talking about that man using his time machine.

While this one is a common knowledge just by simply reading it

“This very instant, you're here conversing with me. The next instant—you vanish without a trace. Is that possible?” He paused briefly, as if giving others time to ponder. "Clearly, any rigorously logical mind must recognize that time, like length, width, and height, is a dimension of space. Therefore, time—as part of space—can naturally be conquered."

 

[Furina003]

doesnt the sacred sakura shenanigans already solidify that past present and future exist simultaneously?

Yes, in the sense that the past always exists and the future already exists, that's why future happening can influence the past

 

[Vietthai96]

someone is trying to make a fictional book as literal as possible.

Oke, could be me only but i feel like this is a jab toward me. Anyway this gonna be my yap. Let's not clogging this thread with non-contributing comment like that. The thread is already 9 pages, and i spent my time to evaluate this thread, which normally should be my free time to do other things. I didn't get paid for doing this, yet the first thing when i go back home yesterday was using my 3 hours of free time to learn stuff about eternalism and presentism to deepening my knowledges so i could get the best evaluation for you guys. Normally i use those time to play some gacha hell games after a long day of work. So please, just provide information instead of making jab, i could be more open-minded, but not every staff


Anyyyyyywayyyy. Final question, can they time travel?

 

[MSahla]

Anyyyyyywayyyy. Final question, can they time travel?

Who? Istaroth? Absolutely, she's every moments. She's Temporal Omnipresence for a reason.

Asmoday? Now thats we don't know. Currently, Asmoday is gone/missing and the rest of the shades are searching for her. And literally the only screentime that Asmoday have is just only at the beginning of the game.

 

[Vietthai96]

Who? Istaroth? Absolutely, she's every moments. She's Temporal Omnipresence for a reason.

Asmoday? Now thats we don't know. Currently, Asmoday is gone/missing and the rest of the shades are searching for her. And literally the only screentime that Asmoday have is just only at the beginning of the game.

i mean normal people, since i saw in that science-fiction book talking about a time machine of some sort

 

[Furina003]

Anyyyyyywayyyy. Final question, can they time travel?

Sure

In fact, the Inazuma incident has proven this, and the Direidyth incident that I explained earlier.

And I Think, We can link the Inazuma incident to the causal loop paradox, where changes in the future or present affect the past.