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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

Considering Shin is off for a few weeks, I have midterms, and I'm still waiting for my apartment which will probably be done some time next month (and I'll probably have more exams then) I wouldn't bet on anything aside from the Root thread this year. The workload distribution is very disorganized and lop-sided I'll see what I can do about it when I have the time.
 
Considering Shin is off for a few weeks, I have midterms, and I'm still waiting for my apartment which will probably be done some time next month (and I'll probably have more exams then) I wouldn't bet on anything aside from the Root thread this year. The workload distribution is very disorganized and lop-sided I'll see what I can do about it when I have the time.
I have one cosmo sandbox if u want to see oh 😭
 
You know, since we might get to see an upgrade that make servants get a tier 1-A, I wonder if it will a new key or not
Iirc from what Toxic told me, in the new cosmology page If everything goes fine Avalon, the Reverse Side, True Magic and Divine Spirits in the Age of Gods might be 1-A. Maybe and maybe Ultimate Ones a layer into it, High 1-A might be a stretch.



So whichever Servants that scale to those stuff will probably be 1A
 
Iirc from what Toxic told me, in the new cosmology page If everything goes fine Avalon, the Reverse Side, True Magic and Divine Spirits in the Age of Gods might be 1-A. Maybe and maybe Ultimate Ones a layer into it, High 1-A might be a stretch.



So whichever Servants that scale to those stuff will probably be 1A
Interesting. I wait for that day to come.
 
I think its low-1A instead, it should just be the true heroic servant key (true form of each one)
Iirc from what Toxic told me, in the new cosmology page If everything goes fine Avalon, the Reverse Side, True Magic and Divine Spirits in the Age of Gods might be 1-A. Maybe and maybe Ultimate Ones a layer into it, High 1-A might be a stretch.



So whichever Servants that scale to those stuff will probably be 1A
So it's more like this then: Base| insert new power-up for specific servants| true form/heroic spirit

Am I getting it right?
 
So it's more like this then: Base| insert new power-up for specific servants| true form/heroic spirit

Am I getting it right?
True form/Heroic spirit don't scale anywhere the souls of servants are just information so they can't have an AP tier

So it's more like this then: Base| insert new power-up for specific servants

Yeah it's more like this example Gilgamesh with Enuma Elish or Solomon with Ars Almadel Salomonis if their powers scale to the 1A structure then they would likely be 1A if everything goes right
 
True form/Heroic spirit don't scale anywhere the souls of servants are just information so they can't have an AP tier

So it's more like this then: Base| insert new power-up for specific servants

Yeah it's more like this example Gilgamesh with Enuma Elish or Solomon with Ars Almadel Salomonis if their powers scale to the 1A structure then they would likely be 1A if everything goes right
Oh okay then
In that case, Saber Venus or even Beast VI/S for Nero would be on tier 1 then?
 
Hello, I am simply copying this from my sandbox to make it accessible. Please note that anyone here is welcome to share feedback if you feel concerned about the next lines.

Introduction & Thesis

This CRT proposes an upgrade for the Imaginary Numbers Space (INS) to Tier 1-A (Outerverse level).

The core argument is that the INS is not merely another "higher-dimensional" realm within the cosmology. Instead, it is the primordial, adimensional void that exists as a qualitative superior to the very framework of "real numbers" which govern space, time, and dimensionality. The real-number universe, with all its dimensional structures, is a contingent, emergent actualization from this imaginary-number substrate. The INS is the source; the dimensional world is a fragile, dependent construct within it.

This proposal synthesizes evidence from across the Nasuverse to demonstrate that the INS is a true null realm that transcends the concept of dimensionality altogether, meeting the strict criteria for 1-A.

Section 1: The Foundational Nature Of The INS

The INS is composed of imaginary numbers, which are mathematically and cosmologically orthogonal to real numbers. This is not a quantitative difference but a qualitative separation of existence itself.

"If we consider this to be an imaginary number and us to be a real number, then real and imaginary numbers normally never intersect."

The Paper Moon is an ultra-class Mystic Code from the Atlas Institute, explicitly designed for INS navigation. It demonstrates INS's lack of inherent structure and opacity.

“It is a compass that assists navigation in the Space of Imaginary Numbers, and it is also an unbreakable needle that indicates proof of existence in the Space of Imaginary Numbers.
A measuring instrument for moving unwaveringly towards a “predefined destination” in the Space of Imaginary Numbers where “direction, distance, time” change randomly (or rather, they cannot be defined).
Here is the process done during an Imaginary Number Dive:


  • First, calculate the distance and output to the destination in normal space.
  • Dive into the Space of Imaginary Numbers.
    At this point, no gauge can observe the situation outside the vehicle.
  • Here the Paper Moon’s map is deployed.
    Since only the Paper Moon can ascertain the direction, distance, and time in the Space of Imaginary Numbers, the ship must advance along the route indicated by the rapidly fluctuating gauge of the Paper Moon.
  • When the destination is reached, emerge from the Space of Imaginary Numbers and go out to normal space.
The end of the process.

(Moonlight/Lostroom Material, 2018 Official Entry)

The INS is a state where the fundamental concepts required for dimensionality and physics are native undefined. The clarification "or rather, they cannot be defined" is critical as t's not randomness, but a fundamental lack of definition.
As such the Paper Moon's entire function is to impose definitions onto this indefinable void. This does not mean the INS has latent structure; it proves the void is so transcendent that a Supreme Mystic Code is needed to force a framework onto it for navigation.

"The Reverse Side of the World is a completely opaque domain where not even established laws of physics can be glimpsed, achieves limitless possibilities through unobservability, unlike primordial chaos which mixes elements."

INS's unobservable opacity rejects physics, enabling limitless possibilities in its void. This opacity reinforces qualitative separation and it's undefinability and opacity lead to INS's non-intersection with real space.

Section 2: The Source of Reality - From Imaginary Chaos to Real Structure

The most definitive evidence for 1-A transcendence is the relationship where lower realities are mere contingent constructs of a higher reality. The INS fulfills this perfectly.

Going back to this quotes

"If we consider this to be an imaginary number and us to be a real number, then real and imaginary numbers normally never intersect."

There is a fundamental, qualitative barrier between the Real Number Space defined by real world physics and Imaginary Numbers. They do not interact because they are different classes of existence. As a result, the gap itself is said to be Insurmontable.

From the unknowable chaos, realities split harboring untold possibilities within the void.

" Whatever originally occupied Void Space seems to have split into two clear types of entities thanks to our ability to observe Void Space now.” (Imaginary Scramble)

This is the cornerstone of the argument. The INS is the ""unknowable" choas – the primordial, undifferentiated source. The act of observation causes realities (the "real number" world with its dimensions) to split from and actualize within this void. The real universe is not a peer to the INS; it is a phenomenon that emerges from it.
Observation collapses the void into defined entities, incorporating the "painter’s palette" analogy of Van Gogh. This observational trigger for differentiation highlights INS's primordial state as beyond structure.
Fate/EXTRA CCC equates the Far Side to INS, portraying it as a null void of primordial chaos. This connects the undefinability and differentiation feats to active transcendence, where INS erases lower existences and maintains timeless eternity, transitioning to its role as a root of creation.

Sakura: “Please think of this school building as something like a bubble floating on the far side of the moon. If the bubble disappears, you will be swallowed by the imaginary space and vanish, or rather, you will wander eternally as an 'indeterminate random number.”
Realities are likened to bubbles, transient, fragile, and entirely dependent on the INS they float upon. Their nullification is not destruction into nothingness, but a reversion to their original, undefined state as an "indeterminate random number" within the INS.

“The world looked like bubbles... Masses of bubbles piled up... Burst as they disappeared... An instant (The Planck Time) was a lifetime, and an equal number of universes burst and disappeared.” (Lord El-Melloi II Case Files)

The fact that entire universes are insignificant, bursting bubbles within the INS is a clear depiction of englobement, where the INS contains all(earth physical) lower realities as insignificant, transient subsets.

Section 3: Properties of the Adimensional Void

The INS's nature as a source beyond dimensionality is confirmed by its inherent properties.

- It is the Null Realm and that erases Identity

“Though we call it an Arena, that there is the Far Side of the Moon... A ‘null realm’ formed out of Imaginary Numbers.” (Fate/EXTRA CCC)

“Sleeping within that darkness means losing one’s self. A normal Heroic Spirit would have to stay awake... Yet, this man did not harm his self while staying asleep.” (Fate/EXTRA CCC)
As seen the INS is explicitly a null realm. Its void-like nature actively erases the identity and "self" of lesser beings, demonstrating its qualitative superiority over the structures that define existence.

The Far Side of the Moon is a place where humanity’s malicious information is trapped—that stagnance and murk is similar to primordial chaos.” (Fate/EXTRA CCC)
This primordial quality links to differentiation, as observation pulls order from chaos. Even in fate extra, in the INS significance" (existence) collapses without constant "number measurement"/tools which graft real metrics onto a numberless void. Like Paper the Moon's gauge, this prevents dissolution, confirming native undefinability.

"The rift between worlds. The inside of nothingness.The gap between heaven and earth. The space outside the universe.Here, where a single moment spans an eternity, only he, and the few beings he acknowledges, are able to exist."

Mash claims that "Time does not go on In the INS" indicating a suspension of "linear" "progression" of real number time. Hence INS contains infinite moments within a single point as seen the arjuna scan above, a feat that transcends sequential time and demonstrates its adimensional, non-linear nature. Yet as a fact INS do have time as Rin quotes it.

“The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing.”

This is not a statement that time exists identically in INS. It’s a contrast. She says “there’s a concept of time” not “time flows,” not “clocks work,” but a concept, i.e, an abstract stand-in that behaves differently from real-world time as INS is Natively beyond any possible Real Number Space constructs.

" "INS has no concept of depth and rejects any measurement of depth. The sense of depth we have here now is illusory (Imaginary Scramble)

The direct implication suggest INS actively rejects spatial measurement. "Depth" is a dimensional concept, and its rejection is a direct statement of adimensionality.
This makes it oteworthy to be aware of the fact that the INS is the predating primordial nothingness from which life was born.

Kiara warns: "Without Sakura, we might have been expelled into the imaginary number space and vanished into foam by now." The previous Lord El Melloi scan states: "No matter how you split it apart(the world), no matter how thin it grew, it never disappeared... but it had no meaning at all." Cursed Cutting Crater (CCC) describes: "A cursed pit that bores out reality... erodes space into imaginary space, a curse that consumes reality... reconstructed as a fictional pitfall of spiritrons... wipes out dimensions along with the target." Hippogriff NP enables to "Phases between truth and fiction," accessing a non-physical soul realm" (Reverse Side).

Imaginary Scramble warns: "Observation of INS causes bugging out, leading to madness or annihilation: Either we go completely mad, or the world around us does... total annihilation."
"Van Gogh’s NP creates mass from nothing, which is impossible in reality space but sourced from INS."

INS’s erosion into foam, fictional pitfalls, and annihilation from observation establish an onthological transcendence, reducing lower realities to insignificant.
This nullification ties directly into INS’s transcendence over all dimensional hierarchies. INS exists as an adimensional void predating reality, where spatial measurements are illusory or imposed. It rejects and erases dimensions, rendering lower realities insignificant. As the "root" of creation and a pre-human Reverse Side domain, INS surpasses even infinite-dimensional frameworks.
CCC states: "The goddess who is the mother of earth mother goddesses that created earth is, in other words, the root that created all creation... Through her authority, BB quantifies nothingness (pre-life state) and distorts time/causality via gravitational interference... wipes out dimensions along with the target.


The Imaginary Numbers Space ultimately meets 1-A definition through the following interconnected proofs:
depth
1. The real-number universe (and all its dimensions) is an emergent actualization from the INS's primordial chaos. Dimensionality is a property of the lower, dependent reality, not the source. The INS is both the source and container of Real Number worlds where they maintain their fragil existence as transient bubbles

2. It is Adimensional by Nature: It is a null realm where spatial and temporal metrics cannot be defined and where the concept of depth is rejected. It is not "infinite-dimensional"; it is a void to which dimensionality is an inapplicable concept. This ties directly to BDE 3.

3. It englobes and nullifies lower realities into insignificance. It treats universes and realities as bubbles that can burst and revert to "indeterminate random numbers" or "foam." This is a classic R>F (Reality to Fiction) transcendence, where the INS is the more "real" substrate further backup by the Hippogriff description describing the Reverside of the world as truth and physical reality as fictional.

4. It is qualitatively separated via the non-intersection of real and imaginary numbers, confirming it operates on a fundamentally different plane of existence.

The INS is not "above" the dimensional hierarchy of Real Number Worlds; it is the foundation upon which that hierarchy is built as a fleeting illusion. It is the canvas, and the dimensional world is the painting placing INS at a normally solid 1-A with the only possible logical fallback pointing at low 1-A
 
Hello, I am simply copying this from my sandbox to make it accessible. Please note that anyone here is welcome to share feedback if you feel concerned about the next lines.

Introduction & Thesis

This CRT proposes an upgrade for the Imaginary Numbers Space (INS) to Tier 1-A (Outerverse level).

The core argument is that the INS is not merely another "higher-dimensional" realm within the cosmology. Instead, it is the primordial, adimensional void that exists as a qualitative superior to the very framework of "real numbers" which govern space, time, and dimensionality. The real-number universe, with all its dimensional structures, is a contingent, emergent actualization from this imaginary-number substrate. The INS is the source; the dimensional world is a fragile, dependent construct within it.

This proposal synthesizes evidence from across the Nasuverse to demonstrate that the INS is a true null realm that transcends the concept of dimensionality altogether, meeting the strict criteria for 1-A.

Section 1: The Foundational Nature Of The INS

The INS is composed of imaginary numbers, which are mathematically and cosmologically orthogonal to real numbers. This is not a quantitative difference but a qualitative separation of existence itself.

"If we consider this to be an imaginary number and us to be a real number, then real and imaginary numbers normally never intersect."

The Paper Moon is an ultra-class Mystic Code from the Atlas Institute, explicitly designed for INS navigation. It demonstrates INS's lack of inherent structure and opacity.

“It is a compass that assists navigation in the Space of Imaginary Numbers, and it is also an unbreakable needle that indicates proof of existence in the Space of Imaginary Numbers.
A measuring instrument for moving unwaveringly towards a “predefined destination” in the Space of Imaginary Numbers where “direction, distance, time” change randomly (or rather, they cannot be defined).
Here is the process done during an Imaginary Number Dive:


  • First, calculate the distance and output to the destination in normal space.
  • Dive into the Space of Imaginary Numbers.
    At this point, no gauge can observe the situation outside the vehicle.
  • Here the Paper Moon’s map is deployed.
    Since only the Paper Moon can ascertain the direction, distance, and time in the Space of Imaginary Numbers, the ship must advance along the route indicated by the rapidly fluctuating gauge of the Paper Moon.
  • When the destination is reached, emerge from the Space of Imaginary Numbers and go out to normal space.
The end of the process.

(Moonlight/Lostroom Material, 2018 Official Entry)

The INS is a state where the fundamental concepts required for dimensionality and physics are native undefined. The clarification "or rather, they cannot be defined" is critical as t's not randomness, but a fundamental lack of definition.
As such the Paper Moon's entire function is to impose definitions onto this indefinable void. This does not mean the INS has latent structure; it proves the void is so transcendent that a Supreme Mystic Code is needed to force a framework onto it for navigation.

"The Reverse Side of the World is a completely opaque domain where not even established laws of physics can be glimpsed, achieves limitless possibilities through unobservability, unlike primordial chaos which mixes elements."

INS's unobservable opacity rejects physics, enabling limitless possibilities in its void. This opacity reinforces qualitative separation and it's undefinability and opacity lead to INS's non-intersection with real space.

Section 2: The Source of Reality - From Imaginary Chaos to Real Structure

The most definitive evidence for 1-A transcendence is the relationship where lower realities are mere contingent constructs of a higher reality. The INS fulfills this perfectly.

Going back to this quotes

"If we consider this to be an imaginary number and us to be a real number, then real and imaginary numbers normally never intersect."

There is a fundamental, qualitative barrier between the Real Number Space defined by real world physics and Imaginary Numbers. They do not interact because they are different classes of existence. As a result, the gap itself is said to be Insurmontable.

From the unknowable chaos, realities split harboring untold possibilities within the void.

" Whatever originally occupied Void Space seems to have split into two clear types of entities thanks to our ability to observe Void Space now.” (Imaginary Scramble)

This is the cornerstone of the argument. The INS is the ""unknowable" choas – the primordial, undifferentiated source. The act of observation causes realities (the "real number" world with its dimensions) to split from and actualize within this void. The real universe is not a peer to the INS; it is a phenomenon that emerges from it.
Observation collapses the void into defined entities, incorporating the "painter’s palette" analogy of Van Gogh. This observational trigger for differentiation highlights INS's primordial state as beyond structure.
Fate/EXTRA CCC equates the Far Side to INS, portraying it as a null void of primordial chaos. This connects the undefinability and differentiation feats to active transcendence, where INS erases lower existences and maintains timeless eternity, transitioning to its role as a root of creation.

Sakura: “Please think of this school building as something like a bubble floating on the far side of the moon. If the bubble disappears, you will be swallowed by the imaginary space and vanish, or rather, you will wander eternally as an 'indeterminate random number.”
Realities are likened to bubbles, transient, fragile, and entirely dependent on the INS they float upon. Their nullification is not destruction into nothingness, but a reversion to their original, undefined state as an "indeterminate random number" within the INS.

“The world looked like bubbles... Masses of bubbles piled up... Burst as they disappeared... An instant (The Planck Time) was a lifetime, and an equal number of universes burst and disappeared.” (Lord El-Melloi II Case Files)

The fact that entire universes are insignificant, bursting bubbles within the INS is a clear depiction of englobement, where the INS contains all(earth physical) lower realities as insignificant, transient subsets.

Section 3: Properties of the Adimensional Void

The INS's nature as a source beyond dimensionality is confirmed by its inherent properties.

- It is the Null Realm and that erases Identity

“Though we call it an Arena, that there is the Far Side of the Moon... A ‘null realm’ formed out of Imaginary Numbers.” (Fate/EXTRA CCC)

“Sleeping within that darkness means losing one’s self. A normal Heroic Spirit would have to stay awake... Yet, this man did not harm his self while staying asleep.” (Fate/EXTRA CCC)
As seen the INS is explicitly a null realm. Its void-like nature actively erases the identity and "self" of lesser beings, demonstrating its qualitative superiority over the structures that define existence.

The Far Side of the Moon is a place where humanity’s malicious information is trapped—that stagnance and murk is similar to primordial chaos.” (Fate/EXTRA CCC)
This primordial quality links to differentiation, as observation pulls order from chaos. Even in fate extra, in the INS significance" (existence) collapses without constant "number measurement"/tools which graft real metrics onto a numberless void. Like Paper the Moon's gauge, this prevents dissolution, confirming native undefinability.

"The rift between worlds. The inside of nothingness.The gap between heaven and earth. The space outside the universe.Here, where a single moment spans an eternity, only he, and the few beings he acknowledges, are able to exist."

Mash claims that "Time does not go on In the INS" indicating a suspension of "linear" "progression" of real number time. Hence INS contains infinite moments within a single point as seen the arjuna scan above, a feat that transcends sequential time and demonstrates its adimensional, non-linear nature. Yet as a fact INS do have time as Rin quotes it.

“The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing.”

This is not a statement that time exists identically in INS. It’s a contrast. She says “there’s a concept of time” not “time flows,” not “clocks work,” but a concept, i.e, an abstract stand-in that behaves differently from real-world time as INS is Natively beyond any possible Real Number Space constructs.

" "INS has no concept of depth and rejects any measurement of depth. The sense of depth we have here now is illusory (Imaginary Scramble)

The direct implication suggest INS actively rejects spatial measurement. "Depth" is a dimensional concept, and its rejection is a direct statement of adimensionality.
This makes it oteworthy to be aware of the fact that the INS is the predating primordial nothingness from which life was born.

Kiara warns: "Without Sakura, we might have been expelled into the imaginary number space and vanished into foam by now." The previous Lord El Melloi scan states: "No matter how you split it apart(the world), no matter how thin it grew, it never disappeared... but it had no meaning at all." Cursed Cutting Crater (CCC) describes: "A cursed pit that bores out reality... erodes space into imaginary space, a curse that consumes reality... reconstructed as a fictional pitfall of spiritrons... wipes out dimensions along with the target." Hippogriff NP enables to "Phases between truth and fiction," accessing a non-physical soul realm" (Reverse Side).

Imaginary Scramble warns: "Observation of INS causes bugging out, leading to madness or annihilation: Either we go completely mad, or the world around us does... total annihilation."
"Van Gogh’s NP creates mass from nothing, which is impossible in reality space but sourced from INS."

INS’s erosion into foam, fictional pitfalls, and annihilation from observation establish an onthological transcendence, reducing lower realities to insignificant.
This nullification ties directly into INS’s transcendence over all dimensional hierarchies. INS exists as an adimensional void predating reality, where spatial measurements are illusory or imposed. It rejects and erases dimensions, rendering lower realities insignificant. As the "root" of creation and a pre-human Reverse Side domain, INS surpasses even infinite-dimensional frameworks.
CCC states: "The goddess who is the mother of earth mother goddesses that created earth is, in other words, the root that created all creation... Through her authority, BB quantifies nothingness (pre-life state) and distorts time/causality via gravitational interference... wipes out dimensions along with the target.


The Imaginary Numbers Space ultimately meets 1-A definition through the following interconnected proofs:
depth
1. The real-number universe (and all its dimensions) is an emergent actualization from the INS's primordial chaos. Dimensionality is a property of the lower, dependent reality, not the source. The INS is both the source and container of Real Number worlds where they maintain their fragil existence as transient bubbles

2. It is Adimensional by Nature: It is a null realm where spatial and temporal metrics cannot be defined and where the concept of depth is rejected. It is not "infinite-dimensional"; it is a void to which dimensionality is an inapplicable concept. This ties directly to BDE 3.

3. It englobes and nullifies lower realities into insignificance. It treats universes and realities as bubbles that can burst and revert to "indeterminate random numbers" or "foam." This is a classic R>F (Reality to Fiction) transcendence, where the INS is the more "real" substrate further backup by the Hippogriff description describing the Reverside of the world as truth and physical reality as fictional.

4. It is qualitatively separated via the non-intersection of real and imaginary numbers, confirming it operates on a fundamentally different plane of existence.

The INS is not "above" the dimensional hierarchy of Real Number Worlds; it is the foundation upon which that hierarchy is built as a fleeting illusion. It is the canvas, and the dimensional world is the painting placing INS at a normally solid 1-A with the only possible logical fallback pointing at low 1-A
Check mine, it has more scans
 
Can someone explain how the CM Types Work in Nasuverse? In this CRT it seems it was accepted to be Type 2, but I've seen posts saying that it also functions as a Type 1. Just need this final thing and I can drop my CRT.
 
Can someone explain how the CM Types Work in Nasuverse? In this CRT it seems it was accepted to be Type 2, but I've seen posts saying that it also functions as a Type 1. Just need this final thing and I can drop my CRT.
in 2021, there were FOUR types of Conceptual manipulation. The then type 1 was basically 1-A and above, while type 2 is what the current type 1 is.

Since the change, most CM in Nasu is type 1. Edison's profile reflects this
 
in 2021, there were FOUR types of Conceptual manipulation. The then type 1 was basically 1-A and above, while type 2 is what the current type 1 is.

Since the change, most CM in Nasu is type 1. Edison's profile reflects this
Perfect, dropping the CRT now.
 
I will provide a feedback on this later. Also how did you make your sandbox public ?
just... post the link?

If it's a sandbox HERE on the forum then no, it's impossible to make public as a thread without copy/paste
 
just... post the link?

If it's a sandbox HERE on the forum then no, it's impossible to make public as a thread without copy/paste
 
wLBmkEX.png
 
I could use it for the cosmo CRT if yall really don't want to wait till 2026
I don't think that would be advisable. A thorough investigation by the supporters is necessary first.

I plan to submit my own feedback later, though the time it takes will depend on the amount of content to review.
 
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