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Castlevania Immortality and Regeneration (and negation thereof) downgrade

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Ultima_Reality

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Resurrection and Regeneration Negation (High-Godly - Conceptual and Narrative and Types 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Upscales from Alucard, who is able to negate Death's regeneration, which can bring it back after being erased from existence while being the abstract concept of Death. Alucard's magic and many weapons are capable of killing creatures of chaos easily who can survive lethal blows easily, Can revive endlessly, are beyond life and death, can possess other objects to exist, most of them are undead, some of them are souls and evil spirits and they all are reliant on the Chaos Entity, and bounded by it, always returning after being killed, with Chaos existing in an alternate dimension beyond the normal world.)

This is taken from Dracula's profile for convenience. Breaking this down into chunks:


So, this one is funny, because that exact scene was something I used in the previous thread as counter evidence for Death being a pure abstraction (which is the crux of the reasoning here: "Death is solely an idea, he dies, and so to return, he must have High-Godly"), since it very clearly shows that Death is indeed a physical being that himself dies when his physical form does. This doesn't prevent him from having some abstract aspect to his existence, of course, but that's clearly not his true self of which the physical form we fight is just a puppet or some suchlike. You don't say you're dying after losing a fingernail.

Of course, coupled with this is the fact that, even after this scene, death as a phenomenon very much still exists in the Castlevania universe. Saying Death is the Type 1 concept of death itself would entail that the phenomenon ceases to exist when he does, so that this is not the case is just one more nail in the coffin for this justification. The final nail then being the fact that Creatures of Chaos, including even Dracula, return to the Abyss when killed. So Death doesn't get conceptually erased when you kill him in the games, instead his soul goes back to the Abyss and stays there until Dracula resurrects and brings him back among his legions (Hence Death tells Leon: "So long as my master survives, I will rise from the dead").

This is presumably as justification for Type 5 Immortality negation. Consists of three scans, none of which have any surrounding context, however the first two seem to be very clearly just using rather poetic language to talk about how vampires are undead. "Drifting between life and death," "in the interstice between life and death," and so on. The third scan is a bit weirder, because it speaks of "transcending life and death" as not a property of the character being talked about, but of the place she is in. But even granting that it refers to a property of hers, the overarching context would just mean that this, too, is just a fancy way of talking about undeath.


This is correct, but there's a catch: No one ever actually negates these resurrective abilities. In each game, you kill Dracula's legions, and in the next game, they are brought back. This is such a transparent part of the series that it's not even possible to provide comprehensive scans for it. Just take a peek at all the recurring enemies across the series and you'll see. The only one who's ever done something remotely close to this was Julius, and even then: a) He didn't actually negate the general resurrection of the chaos creatures, just their ability to reconstitute by being amped by a nearby gate to the Abyss, b) It's pretty much treated as an impossible feat only there to highlight how strong he is, not something you can generalize to everyone (Soma, for instance, can't do that, and that he can't is a main mechanic in the game).

In point of fact, the neglect to distinguish between the healing abilities proper to each creature of chaos and the general resurrective abilities that they have due to being part of Dracula's legions results in a really funny bit in the profiles where, apparently, The Belmonts are given High-Godly negation because they can kill Mudmen. Mudmen, the guys whose regeneration really consists in putting themselves back together after you smash them into goop. So, yeah, it's no bueno indeed. Moving on to the additional evidence that's in the Belmont Bloodline page:

This is just Lucy saying she isn't strong enough to deal with creatures of chaos. "Lacked a natural talent for destroying dark ones," as she puts it. It doesn't necessarily mean permanently destroying chaos creatures, since no character in the series has done that. And of course, even temporarily killing these things is, still, killing/destroying/vanquishing them.

The monsters that materialize from the grimoires aren't the actual chaos creatures. they're records of the original monsters that, through the forces of Chaos, were able to break out of the grimoires and into the real world. Notice how Death is explicitly distinguished from the other beings in the grimoires, because he's the real deal and not just a record brought to life. This isn't any ability of the Creatures of Chaos themselves.

This is Low-Godly. No evidence it applies to anyone but the Innocent Devils, also.

1. The scan is from a walkthrough. 2. This is clearly just talking about enemies respawning in-game.

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This one is actually interesting. I guess the interpretation here is that Dracula's Wraith (who's clearly not corporeal) is being destroyed, then coming back as its second form, which would net Mid-Godly regeneration. I'm somewhat indifferent to this one, but I lean towards labeling it as just Resurrection, given the one-time nature of it. It only comes back one time before you kill it for good, and I don't think it makes sense to say that the Vampire Killer's regeneration-nullifying abilities for some reason didn't kick in the first time but did in the second round.



So, yeah, in conclusion: Creatures of Chaos having High-Godly regeneration, as far as I can see, is bunk, and so is the idea that everyone in Castlevania has High-Godly regen negation. Immortality Type 5, too, is fake, and so is people being able to negate Type 5, 8, and 9.
 
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You don't say you're dying after losing a fingernail.
Speak for yourself.
This is correct, but there's a catch: No one ever actually negates these resurrective abilities. In each game, you kill Dracula's legions, and in the next game, they are brought back. This is such a transparent part of the series that it's not even possible to provide comprehensive scans for it. Just take a peek at all the recurring enemies across the series and you'll see. The only one who's ever done something remotely close to this was Julius, and even then: a) He didn't actually negate the general resurrection of the chaos creatures, just their ability to reconstitute by being amped by a nearby gate to the Abyss, b) It's pretty much treated as an impossible feat only there to highlight how strong he is, not something you can generalize to everyone (Soma, for instance, can't do that, and that he can't is a main mechanic in the game).
I would also add that the Julius thing is relating to physical regeneration rather than immortality. He specifies he's destroying them before the reconstitute (aka basically just overwhelming their regeneration) and the way those fights play out in-game is if you don't seal the bosses as a finishing blow they get a bunch of health back.
In point of fact, the neglect to distinguish between the healing abilities proper to each creature of chaos and the general resurrective abilities that they have due to being part of Dracula's legions results in a really funny bit in the profiles where, apparently, The Belmonts are given High-Godly negation because they can kill Mudmen. Mudmen, the guys whose regeneration really consists in putting themselves back together after you smash them into goop. So, yeah, it's no bueno indeed. Moving on to the additional evidence that's in the Belmont Bloodline page:
Notably the Mudman scan very much makes the regeneration seem like it's a "blast them apart when they're vulnerable" thing rather than any unique ability. In fact Holy Water is what actually negates their regeneration, and yet has no particular effect on literally any other Castlevania creature's immortality. This is very clearly a unique ability unrelated to their inherent immortality.
This is Low-Godly. No evidence it applies to anyone but the Innocent Devils, also.
Is this even regeneration at all? Innocent Devils are summoned/created creatures, this seems to just explain the mechanics of how that works.
So, yeah, in conclusion: Creatures of Chaos having High-Godly regeneration, as far as I can see, is bunk, and so is the idea that everyone in Castlevania has High-Godly regen negation. Immortality Type 5, too, is fake, and so is people being able to negate Type 5, 8, and 9.
Yeah this makes sense. As before I'd prefer to hear Glassman's side of things but this time it seems straightforwardly wrong enough that I'll sign off on a removal.

Will anything replace these ratings? It seems like the CoCs should get Low-Godly for the Abyss stuff at least, though as you said nobody can negate it.
 
This one is actually interesting. I guess the interpretation here is that Dracula's Wraith (who's clearly not corporeal) is being destroyed, then coming back as its second form, which would net Mid-Godly regeneration. I'm somewhat indifferent to this one, but I lean towards labeling it as just Resurrection, given the one-time nature of it. It only comes back one time before you kill it for good, and I don't think it makes sense to say that the Vampire Killer's regeneration-nullifying abilities for some reason didn't kick in the first time but did in the second round.
So would this bump Dracula's regeneration back to Mid-High based on reforming from bloody mist in Chronicles or would that also be treated as a one time resurrection for the same reasons the wraith coming back would be due to it only being one time before Dracula actually dies the second time?
 
Seems that the only verse supporter who would be interested in defending this (Glassman) has been off-wiki. Last he was here was October 24. I'm bumping this for more staff input though, since Armor's the only one who gave his input so far.
 
Yeah, agreed with this. I'd also say the CoC really shouldn't have general regeneration; To me their ability to come back reads as vintage resurrection/immortality type 8.
 
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