ExcelsisBerny
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I'm asking for evidence that it is currently accepted as an UES.
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Upgrade Sinners and Shades (GENSHIN IMPACT)
- Thread starter Furina003
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I'm asking for evidence that it is currently accepted as an UES.
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Elemental has been accepted as UES. So, yeah?
And shade can not only create but also destroy.
I've already submitted your vote, so let's end this debate and let the staff evaluate it.
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Im editedYou gotta stop using translates in this wiki bro
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divinity is not elemental energy the shades do not use elemental energy they predate it.
ExcelsisBerny
She/Her- 1,663
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???????
The page you linked does not exist, and what does elemental energy have to do with the divine power of the shades?
Yeah, this definitely looks iffy as hell. I’m keeping my vote against full Low 2-C.
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Heavenly principles the creator of ues in genshin impact
i already input you vote, if you want change your vote tell to me
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I've asked about that, you can read my previous post, stop this debate, let the staff evaluate it, CRT has been running for 8 pages with the discussion going round and round
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no it has not been accepted. Only elemental energy has been accepted as UES.
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I have.......managed to........read through 8 pages......and........it is on phone..........., man.......i'm dying
Anyway, i could see Temporal Omniprensent for Istaroth?, that is her name right?
But i don't see HDE or Low 2-C
For HDE you need to be space-time itself or at least 4 spatial dimensions, a body that possesses more than 3 basic dimensions. I see no such a thing for Istaroth because
1. You guys arguing her to be concept of time itself, concept is metaphysical, abstraction, it shouldn't be physical in any sense, space-time while intangible and incorporeal, still physical dimensions and possesses physical quantity
2. Iirc, there is also Shade of Space, Asmoday or something. That mean the verse clearly separate Space with Time, thus even with Istaroth being Time, this suppose "time" do not contain space within i (or space interwoven with Time) which is a requirement for Time to be higher dimensional. If Istaroth being Time with Space in it, Asmoday existence is unnecessary because Istaroth being Time will also embodies Space too, and even if Asmoday need to exist for plot, Asmoday should be lower in existence compare to Istaroth not being equal
For Low 2-C, it isn't because
1. I already explained on why HDE isn't qualified so no Low 2-C
2. Iirc another Low 2-C argument came from an one-off, out of nowhere statement that is Istaroth write the story of this world or something (and it is even text manipulation). Idk why this statement, which is extremely vague and no context is used for Low 2-C (and get Text hax), like write story in what way??, it is a statement that exist in a vacuum that said nothing and somehow get interpreted into Istaroth can write the narrative of the world and rewrite timeline, where is the scan say she can rewrite timeline?
3. Like what i said about HDE, Time and Space clearly separate, so Istaroth manipulate time will not include space with it, thus disqualify for Low 2-C AP
4. The Four Shades are portrayed as equal which include Space. For Time to be Low 2-C which is higher-dimensional, it need to be quantitatively superior to Space, however Time and Space are portrayed as equal mean no quantitative difference between them. So Time isn't > Space thus not Low 2-C, unless Space it Low 2-C which of course you need to show evidence for it. This also supporting the fact that Time and Space are separated entities and not connected, interwoven
5. The universe is stated to be 14 billion years old, this mean time is finite (not not discreeted but finite), it would be fine with space interwoven with time to create a space-time continuum which would qualify as Low 2-C under our tiering system. However space isn't connected with time, and is clearly portrayed as separate, equal entity, coupled with time being finite disqualify time being Low 2-C
All and all i disagree with HDE and Low 2-C, and probably all of this evidence could capped the verse forever in tier 3 and below
There is my evaluation of this thread
Anyway, i could see Temporal Omniprensent for Istaroth?, that is her name right?
But i don't see HDE or Low 2-C
For HDE you need to be space-time itself or at least 4 spatial dimensions, a body that possesses more than 3 basic dimensions. I see no such a thing for Istaroth because
1. You guys arguing her to be concept of time itself, concept is metaphysical, abstraction, it shouldn't be physical in any sense, space-time while intangible and incorporeal, still physical dimensions and possesses physical quantity
2. Iirc, there is also Shade of Space, Asmoday or something. That mean the verse clearly separate Space with Time, thus even with Istaroth being Time, this suppose "time" do not contain space within i (or space interwoven with Time) which is a requirement for Time to be higher dimensional. If Istaroth being Time with Space in it, Asmoday existence is unnecessary because Istaroth being Time will also embodies Space too, and even if Asmoday need to exist for plot, Asmoday should be lower in existence compare to Istaroth not being equal
For Low 2-C, it isn't because
1. I already explained on why HDE isn't qualified so no Low 2-C
2. Iirc another Low 2-C argument came from an one-off, out of nowhere statement that is Istaroth write the story of this world or something (and it is even text manipulation). Idk why this statement, which is extremely vague and no context is used for Low 2-C (and get Text hax), like write story in what way??, it is a statement that exist in a vacuum that said nothing and somehow get interpreted into Istaroth can write the narrative of the world and rewrite timeline, where is the scan say she can rewrite timeline?
3. Like what i said about HDE, Time and Space clearly separate, so Istaroth manipulate time will not include space with it, thus disqualify for Low 2-C AP
4. The Four Shades are portrayed as equal which include Space. For Time to be Low 2-C which is higher-dimensional, it need to be quantitatively superior to Space, however Time and Space are portrayed as equal mean no quantitative difference between them. So Time isn't > Space thus not Low 2-C, unless Space it Low 2-C which of course you need to show evidence for it. This also supporting the fact that Time and Space are separated entities and not connected, interwoven
5. The universe is stated to be 14 billion years old, this mean time is finite (not not discreeted but finite), it would be fine with space interwoven with time to create a space-time continuum which would qualify as Low 2-C under our tiering system. However space isn't connected with time, and is clearly portrayed as separate, equal entity, coupled with time being finite disqualify time being Low 2-C
All and all i disagree with HDE and Low 2-C, and probably all of this evidence could capped the verse forever in tier 3 and below
There is my evaluation of this thread
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The HDE is should be legit for me because she's basically embodying the entire timeline and can freely manipulate or created a new timelines, and she's already stated to be every moments across past, present and future.
For the rewriting timeline it is long to explain. The short is, She rewriting the entire timeline of Inazuma where 500 years ago they didn't get destroyed by the Cataclysm.
Its starting from this cutscene and onwards, theres the full context of it.
Istaroth is stated to write the story of the world, now, Columbina said that Reality rewrote the sky in words she could not understand. Thats proving that Istaroth has full control over the story and reality of the world and she can change or rewrite it and also destroy it.
The explanation of her creating new timelines is explained here and its a very long one.
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Temporal Omnipresent already allows to do this, HDE isn't, and i already said, Space and Time is clearly separated
I will try to see the rewriting timeline, but seriously why i need to watch those long videos again
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Doesn't mean they can't be connected. Their powers work together and can also counter each other—For example, Ronova was able to kill the Space created by Asmoday.
She even already guessed that Asmoday may have been switching sides from them which proves that she knows what Asmoday is doing.
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Able to punch or hax each other to death =/= their nature is connected. Also Ronova killed the Space created by Asmoday, not Asmoday herself
Edit: and even if Ronova killed Asmoday herself, it doesn't mean anything, or do you want to claim that Ronova is also Space itself for be able to kill Asmoday?
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Who even said their nature is connected because they can counter each other?
I said their powers works together and can also counter each other.
The Four Shades are tasked by the Heavenly Principles with governing over the metaphysical laws of Teyvat
Why would she need to kill asmoday herself anyway. I said their powers.
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???
I have never ever thinking about that in my mind, so i dont even know why do you guessing me thinking like that.
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This doesn't say anything relevant, like seriously
And again, it is irrelevant, like i said, destroying things =/= you being said things itself
Character A have conceptual manipulation doesn't make A a conceptual entity
Just my guess
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Uhuh
Works together means connected to each other, like Time with Space and Life with Death.
Istaroth already guessed what Asmoday could possibly be doing out there, she knows that asmoday isn't in the space that she created, and she thinks asmoday might be doing something, this is proving that Istaroth is always connected to Asmoday rather than two of the other shades that governs Life and Death. The other shades like Naberius and Ronova couldn't even guess that TWICE, only Istaroth.
And if you look at that "Gods' Limits" trailer, the first appereances of the shades is Naberius with Ronova which is Life and Death, showing the connection between two of them.
And you know whats funny? Istaroth and Asmoday is ALSO works together in seperating the twins in 5.7 Archon Quest: Space and Time For You.
Anyway.. I feel like i don't even have any good mood to defend this thread no more, i dont even care atp.
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As I recall, temporal omnipresent is being able to be present throughout time, not being all time itself. Istaroth gets temporal omnipresent not only because she can be present throughout time, but she is all time itself. I don't see anything wrong with HDE because space and time are not separate but one unit, so the past, future and present are spacetime itself, considering that our standards allow for it, where every character who embodies the entire spacetime continuum, namely the past, present and future, is able to get HDE by default. This is the same as someone who can destroy all time, which by default will get L2C. So why doesn't the existence of all time get 4D HDE? It clearly doesn't make sense to me.
the essence of l2c is the scaling of istaroth which is able to create time, and musika mundana which supports the entire universe down to the concept of time itself, the destruction of musika mundana will cause the destruction of the universe.
Moreover, shades can not only create, but they complement each other, for example, Istaroth can create time with a scale of 2c, but his authority is only limited to creating and changing, while Ronova as death is the opposite, Ronova is the end of creation because she is death, where she once showed that he was able to destroy the spacetime created by Asmoday and Istaroth.
In my opinion, the energy of the heavenly gods is also UES, because they are the creators of the ues in genshin impact.
I'm just expressing my opinion that it seems like HDE can be maintained because the spacetime continuum refers to all the time that exists in space, all decisions are up to you.
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I'm waiting for a response to this before inputting a vote to the CRT.As I recall, temporal omnipresent is being able to be present throughout time, not being all time itself. Istaroth gets temporal omnipresent not only because she can be present throughout time, but she is all time itself. I don't see anything wrong with HDE because space and time are not separate but one unit, so the past, future and present are spacetime itself, considering that our standards allow for it, where every character who embodies the entire spacetime continuum, namely the past, present and future, is able to get HDE by default. This is the same as someone who can destroy all time, which by default will get L2C. So why doesn't the existence of all time get 4D HDE? It clearly doesn't make sense to me.
the essence of l2c is the scaling of istaroth which is able to create time, and musika mundana which supports the entire universe down to the concept of time itself, the destruction of musika mundana will cause the destruction of the universe.
Moreover, shades can not only create, but they complement each other, for example, Istaroth can create time with a scale of 2c, but his authority is only limited to creating and changing, while Ronova as death is the opposite, Ronova is the end of creation because she is death, where she once showed that he was able to destroy the spacetime created by Asmoday and Istaroth.
In my opinion, the energy of the heavenly gods is also UES, because they are the creators of the ues in genshin impact.
I'm just expressing my opinion that it seems like HDE can be maintained because the spacetime continuum refers to all the time that exists in space, all decisions are up to you.
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I already explained Space and Time need to be the same continuum, interconnected. Of course Time or Universal Space-Time by default would be Low 2-C, but nothing say there is no anti-feat or statement that against such notion. It would be fine if the verse didn't separate Time and Space. If Time include Space then the existence of Asmoday isn't needed, or if she existed, she should be an inferior existence compare to Istaroth; as in order to qualify as HDE and Low 2-C, time must be a superior dimension, but the verse directly portrayed Istaroth who is Time and Asmoday who is Space as separated, equal entities, mean Time = Space, no superiority either. So at best Istaroth is a single dimension of time, 1D
It also isn't help that Istaroth have AE1 concept on her profile as she is concept of time, concept is non-physical and concept of time =/= dimension of time which is physical
Let's me phrase this, this isn't somehow the verse not qualifying, but rather the verse itself show evidence that make it disqualify
All and all, i will try to look at evidence for rewriting timeline when i have time, currently i'm just in short breaks of my work, probably character could get Low 2-C via this
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Yes, I'm sorry for bothering you.
I will include your vote after you come back
but for the last time, I ask for your help to look at this, digenshin has indeed implemented the spacetime continum, and it is necessary to know that Genshin also applies the cosmology block universe/eternalysm where the past and the future run simultaneously, which proves that Istaroth is the past and the future itself.
Yes, thank you for coming.
I will include your vote after you come back
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Space and time are still two different aspects, but they are still in the same scope, that's why there is Asmoday and Istaroth because time and space are indeed different aspects, but they complement each other because they are in the same scope.
Time and Space in Genshin Impact ARE NOT separated.
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「时间。」
顷刻间屋内鸦雀无声,下一秒所有人笑得前仰后合。
「真是不着边际的奇谈怪论!」兰涅医生强忍着笑意,「首先,时间怎么能是空间的一部分呢?」
「您能够脱离时间,独立存在于空间中吗?」
「什么意思?」
「这一个瞬间您还在这里和我交谈,下一个瞬间——————您消失得无影无踪。这可能吗?」他停顿了片刻,仿佛是在等待其他人思考,「很显然,任何思想严谨的人都应当清楚,和长度、宽度、高度一样,时间也是空间的一个维度。因此,时间————————作为空间的一部分———————自然也能够被征服。」
“Time.”
The room fell silent in an instant, only to erupt in laughter the next.
“What utter nonsense!” Dr. Reinier stifled a chuckle. “First off, how could time possibly be part of space?”
“Can you exist independently in space, detached from time?”
“What do you mean?”
“This very instant, you're here conversing with me. The next instant—you vanish without a trace. Is that possible?” He paused briefly, as if giving others time to ponder. "Clearly, any rigorously logical mind must recognize that time, like length, width, and height, is a dimension of space. Therefore, time—as part of space—can naturally be conquered."
顷刻间屋内鸦雀无声,下一秒所有人笑得前仰后合。
「真是不着边际的奇谈怪论!」兰涅医生强忍着笑意,「首先,时间怎么能是空间的一部分呢?」
「您能够脱离时间,独立存在于空间中吗?」
「什么意思?」
「这一个瞬间您还在这里和我交谈,下一个瞬间——————您消失得无影无踪。这可能吗?」他停顿了片刻,仿佛是在等待其他人思考,「很显然,任何思想严谨的人都应当清楚,和长度、宽度、高度一样,时间也是空间的一个维度。因此,时间————————作为空间的一部分———————自然也能够被征服。」
“Time.”
The room fell silent in an instant, only to erupt in laughter the next.
“What utter nonsense!” Dr. Reinier stifled a chuckle. “First off, how could time possibly be part of space?”
“Can you exist independently in space, detached from time?”
“What do you mean?”
“This very instant, you're here conversing with me. The next instant—you vanish without a trace. Is that possible?” He paused briefly, as if giving others time to ponder. "Clearly, any rigorously logical mind must recognize that time, like length, width, and height, is a dimension of space. Therefore, time—as part of space—can naturally be conquered."
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Is this really from genshin?
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Time Trekker
Time Trekker is a Book Collection found in Fontaine. This is a story from many years ago. After the evening banquet, Ms. Aviva (who today would be Lady Nenonen) was, as always, theatrically grousing to us about the all-too-swift march of science. Though her grasp on engineering is even less firm...
genshin-impact.fandom.com
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I mean, I’m still up to call Istaroth and Asmoday as separate expressions of the same whole.
Wasn’t Life and Death also merged together in Teyvat before the Shades? Not that it was “merged” in the sense we care about here (like how Space-Time is one) but it might—in a sense—show that Shades exist in dualities that might be intricately connected rather than wholly separate beings. Tho, this second point is admittedly a slight reach in regards to physical Space-Time
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As i said, Even though they are different people, they still complement each other and governing Spacetime together.
"In that era, there was no boundary between Life and Death" — Nicole Reeyn
Phanes is just wanna have someone who controls life and death entirely, hence they want to replace the Hydro Dragon as the original "God of Life".
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Yeah, the Shades complement each other like left and right, above and below. Life, death, space, and time are the fundamental concepts that form the universe; without them, the universe wouldn’t exist. I’ve already explained before that if Istaroth and Asmoday are the creators of spacetime, then Naberius is the creator of all life within it, while Ronova represents the end of it all just as she said when she destroyed the space-time and the life within the realm created by Asmoday: “It's time I put this space out of its misery”
So they truly complete one another, and they are reflections or shadows of the Primordial One itself.
So they truly complete one another, and they are reflections or shadows of the Primordial One itself.
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Someday, I plan to discuss the nonduality of the Shades, but for now, I’m waiting for something in the upcoming quests to strengthen what I’ve been thinking.
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Yeah no, what i meant was Istaroth and Asmoday, being separated and equal entities. You literally said it yourself, they are different aspects, with Istaroth being Time only, and Asmoday being Space only thus still no HDE. I already said it, Istaroth need to be both Time and Space to be HDE, not being only one of the two
The texts you posted stated only about space-time as dimensions and they are togethers. Not about Istaroth and Asmoday, they are still seperate entities, one being Time only and one being Space only, and you guys literally have them listed as concept of Time for Istaroth and concept of Space, they compliment each other doesn't change the fact that they are separated things
Like did you guys actually read my entire argument, or just read some parts of it and picked up some keywords to debunk?
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Is there a single Genshin CRT that isn't 8+ pages bro
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The argument is that Asmoday and Istaroth exist in union in their “true form” as [Space-Time] whereas they are differentiated as manifestations (the anime girls) the same way we commonly differentiate Space and Time even while admitting they are a single whole. So both Asmoday and Istaroth are Space-Time intrinsically but express each other differently.
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Seem like headcanon interpretation to me. Even if thing is like this, they must have an union true form and only the true form is HDE, not the differentiate expression, and the suppose true form must be its own existence. Arguing the expressions have true form state of existence is like arguing a character who is one side of a duality have nonduality due to their suppose union true form is nondual due to existing as both sides of duality simultaneously
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It seems to me the distinction itself is the headcanon here. After all, there’s literally a book in-game stating that Time is an extension of Space and it’s dimensions.
Also dualities aren’t even united inherently without some background similar to the Taiji, and even if they were, they aren’t “one” the same way Space-Time is one, so the analogy doesn’t hold up.
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?????. What is this even mean?
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