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Marvel cosmology revision (Update and merging J.M. DeMatteis and main one)

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My fellow broathers i Progrev228 stand here today to make a Marvel cosmology revision. Since current status of Marvel comics not on his best days and Goofy (previous user who make revision) lest the wiki. So i decided to show you guys my own view of marvel cosmology.



Macroverse is exist ouside of infinity of the universes. It is exist above main multiverse, have simular structure and gap between first step of marcoverse is bigger than gap between any realities within multiverse. Worlds within worlds are infinite. So worlds within worlds is infinite hierarchy of multiverses with macroverse-microverse relationship and first step in higher multiverse is bigger than entire previous multiverse and have same hierarchy. It is looks like higher you ascend in worlds within worlds the bigger differences between multiverses, since in macroverse, unlike main multiverse, previous multiverse is not exist even as atoms and Silver Surfer who can travel in microverse have probles to return in his multiverse.

Additional Profs what worlds within worlds and layers of multiverse aren't same thing:

I don't want to dwell on this topic for a long time, since all what can be written already in main cosmology page. I just want to add a little bit, TOAA was shown draw sephirotes (and number of sephirotes are bigger then in IRL Kabbalah and realities outside multiverse) and each of sephirotes have R>F differense. So TOAA position (HOI) can't be ascend through hierarchy.

As you see i used scans from Dematteis comics dispate split you know why? Because Dematteis cosmology isn't different from the main one. It has same structures and hierarchies as main one (hierarchy of dreams in multiverse and worlds within worlds) and Dematteis structures (Macroverse) was mentioned by other cosmological writers like Al Ewing (previous scans) and Dan Slott (scan). Even more Dematteis istelf uses and expands cosmology of other writer Steve Gerber (Fear, Man-thing scans). He was first one who write about universe being dream, worlds within worlds, and universes inside mind. Steve Gerber write same runs before Dematteis (Defenders, Man-thing). Al Ewing also read Steve Gerber runs, and all three of them wrote the same series (Defenders). So Dematteis Multiverse is same multiverse as main one. Now about ouside of multiverse. As we know TOAA isn't marvel supreme being and likely TOAA is manifestation of higher entity, because in Kabbalah exist such thing as Shekhinah is a manifistation of ein sof in tree of life in Malkuth. And it looks very much like TOAA who resides in world of action. What about Dematteis stuff? Well in Dematteis comics heavy impiled what multiverse is just one dream in higher hierarchy, Dematteis itsef in twitter write what nexus emcompaces realities outside of multiverse (Dematteis was first writer who showed Multiversal Eternity in void). Fallen stars and Scrier sayed what they older than Galactus (and Galactus being from previous multiverse was idea long ago). We don't even see true form of Oblivion his form in mighty Thor annual was just a manifisation, Nexus also stated to be transended other realms not just ones. So why TOAA can't be just a manifistation of Divine Creator? It was even stated what Divine creator dreamed about himself. And unlike TOAA Divine Creator is fully transdual being and even Fallen Stars don't understand his true nature. Even super controversal characters like Nemesis is accepted as canon (There Ego gem in this scan), and that issue was writen by Al Ewing main cosmolohy writer and nemesis existen contradicts multiversal cycle which Ewing itself created and he still writen what Nemesis somehow still canon. So why Dematteis works which is contradicts less than Nemesis can't be part of main contunuity.

My country never was part of British Empire so i'm sorry in there any errors in the text.
 
I never liked the split but honestly I understand very little about tier 1.
I do like your interpretation that TOAA is a manifestation and I specialy like the scan saying that Divine creater dreamed about himself playing all the roles, which kinda supports TOAA just being a manifestation and also I interpret "play every role" as meaning that he can make his manisfestations "lose" because it's all part of his dream.
I don't know what would this mean for the cosmology tier wise and whatnot
 
Agree with proposal, as I believe that The Divine Creator is basically (Ein Sof) of Marvel, while toaa/hoi resembles Kether. Oblivion should resemble the Kabbalah Ayin or Ain (Nothingness) thst exists beyond the house of ideas
 
Looks good, but what will the new tiering be?
Let me wank

Individual dreams : 1-A+ since it is infinite hierarchy of worlds with R>F difference, and each of this worlds have same structure as main one ( 1 layer into 1-A)

Multiverse: Infinity layers into High 1-A since beings of higher worlds transcends consciousness of beings of lower worlds and have individual hierarchy dreams of their reality + there realities what trancends any universe like Therea, Brahma, Gutter space.

Worlds within worlds: Infinite hierarchies above baseline High 1-A since it is infinite hierarchy of Multiverses/Spirals/hierarchies there lesser reality of higher multiverse trancendents entire previous multiverse/hierarchy, like difference between lesser reality in Macroverse and Bharma/Gutter space will be bigger than difference between Brahma and 1-D reality and Macroverse itself have hierarchy since it higher multiverse.

TOAA/HOI: hierarchy above infinite hierarchies since TOAA able to draw sephirotes which have R>F difference and first sephirot bigger than worlds within worlds

Dematteis characters will keep High 1-A+ and 0 since Nexus unattainably superior to any other structure
 
Let me wank

Individual dreams : 1-A+ since it is infinite hierarchy of worlds with R>F difference, and each of this worlds have same structure as main one ( 1 layer into 1-A)

Multiverse: Infinity layers into High 1-A since beings of higher worlds transcends consciousness of beings of lower worlds and have individual hierarchy dreams of their reality + there realities what trancends any universe like Therea, Brahma, Gutter space.

Worlds within worlds: Infinite hierarchies above baseline High 1-A since it is infinite hierarchy of Multiverses/Spirals/hierarchies there lesser reality of higher multiverse trancendents entire previous multiverse/hierarchy, like difference between lesser reality in Macroverse and Bharma/Gutter space will be bigger than difference between Brahma and 1-D reality and Macroverse itself have hierarchy since it higher multiverse.

TOAA/HOI: hierarchy above infinite hierarchies since TOAA able to draw sephirotes which have R>F difference and first sephirot bigger than worlds within worlds

Dematteis characters will keep High 1-A+ and 0 since Nexus unattainably superior to any other structure
Won't the Abstracts be affected by this?
 
Let me wank

Individual dreams : 1-A+ since it is infinite hierarchy of worlds with R>F difference, and each of this worlds have same structure as main one ( 1 layer into 1-A)

Multiverse: Infinity layers into High 1-A since beings of higher worlds transcends consciousness of beings of lower worlds and have individual hierarchy dreams of their reality + there realities what trancends any universe like Therea, Brahma, Gutter space.

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Worlds within worlds: Infinite hierarchies above baseline High 1-A since it is infinite hierarchy of Multiverses/Spirals/hierarchies there lesser reality of higher multiverse trancendents entire previous multiverse/hierarchy, like difference between lesser reality in Macroverse and Bharma/Gutter space will be bigger than difference between Brahma and 1-D reality and Macroverse itself have hierarchy since it higher multiverse.

TOAA/HOI: hierarchy above infinite hierarchies since TOAA able to draw sephirotes which have R>F difference and first sephirot bigger than worlds within worlds

Dematteis characters will keep High 1-A+ and 0 since Nexus unattainably superior to any other structure
What about Universal Eternity? The Astral Plane is within Earth-616.
 
TOAA/HOI: hierarchy above infinite hierarchies since TOAA able to draw sephirotes which have R>F difference and first sephirot bigger than worlds within worlds

Dematteis characters will keep High 1-A+ and 0 since Nexus unattainably superior to any other structure

Where is the evidence that the Nexus of All Realities is superior to the House of Ideas?

The only thing superior to the House of Ideas is the Mystery / the World of Creation, which represents an individual’s path toward understanding God, who is infinite (as stated in the cosmology blog).

There are many strange things in your proposal as it stands.
 
Where is the evidence that the Nexus of All Realities is superior to the House of Ideas?

The only thing superior to the House of Ideas is the Mystery / the World of Creation, which represents an individual’s path toward understanding God, who is infinite (as stated in the cosmology blog).

There are many strange things in your proposal as it stands.
Well in short TOAA is manifestation of Divine Creator, nexus is highest dream in mind of god and nexus can exists above HOI since it encompasses dreams within dreams outside of the multiverse and transcends them.
 
Well in short TOAA is manifestation of Divine Creator, nexus is highest dream in mind of god and nexus can exists above HOI since it encompasses dreams within dreams outside of the multiverse and transcends them.

There is no evidence that TOAA is a manifestation of the Divine Creator whatsoever. The mention that the Nexus is ‘the highest dream of God’ predates Defenders Beyond coming out and retconning the previous cosmic hierarchy.

The Divine Creator is probably TOAA itself, with the manifestation of the House of Ideas being its most powerful version shown so far, since the rest is the unknowable.

Of course, all this ignoring the fact that Mr. DeMatteis is known for writing things his own way, disregarding no hinduist cosmological elements established by his colleagues, having done the same in DC Comics.
 
There is no evidence that TOAA is a manifestation of the Divine Creator whatsoever. The mention that the Nexus is ‘the highest dream of God’ predates Defenders Beyond coming out and retconning the previous cosmic hierarchy.

The Divine Creator is probably TOAA itself, with the manifestation of the House of Ideas being its most powerful version shown so far, since the rest is the unknowable.
There statement what god dreams about himself, TOAA looks like concept of Shekinah (which is manifestation of ein sof), Divine creator conceptually "higher" then TOAA since he fully nondual being that transcends existence and nonexistence, Oblivion as concept resembles Ayin ( and true form of Oblivion isn't even shown) Divine creator resembles concept of ein sof. And why nexus can be higher if it transcends hierarchy of dreams which includes realities outside of multiverse and all this realities just shadow of shadow of nexus.
Of course, all this ignoring the fact that Mr. DeMatteis is known for writing things his own way, disregarding no hinduist cosmological elements established by his colleagues, having done the same in DC Comics.
Yes Dematteis uses concepts from Hinduism and what? Al Ewing uses concepts from Kabbalah but in defenders: beyond he also uses concepts from Buddhism.
 
There statement what god dreams about himself, TOAA looks like concept of Shekinah (which is manifestation of ein sof)
Divine creator resembles concept of ein sof.

I don't know what do you mean with "looks like". If you have evidence about TOAA of the House of Ideas being 'Shekinah' then show it.

Divine creator conceptually "higher" then TOAA since he fully nondual being that transcends existence and nonexistence, Oblivion as concept resembles Ayin ( and true form of Oblivion isn't even shown) Divine creator resembles concept of ein sof.

Cool but irrelevant because it got retconned. I have no problems with High 1-A+ Oblivion, but not using that kind of disingenuous argumentation.

And why nexus can be higher if it transcends hierarchy of dreams which includes realities outside of multiverse and all this realities just shadow of shadow of nexus.

I already answered this:

The mention that the Nexus is ‘the highest dream of God’ predates Defenders Beyond coming out and retconning the previous cosmic hierarchy.

Yes Dematteis uses concepts from Hinduism and what? Al Ewing uses concepts from Kabbalah but in defenders: beyond he also uses concepts from Buddhism.

I’m not against the merge. I’m just saying that DeMatteis most of the time ignores the cosmological elements established by other authors. He did the same in DC: he ignored planes like the Sphere of the Gods and the Monitor Sphere, reducing the entire cosmology to a hierarchy of dreams leading toward the Divine Dreamer (hmm, sounds extremely familiar!). I’m not saying DeMatteis’s stories aren’t canon or that the merge can’t happen; I’m saying the cosmologies are inconsistent with each other due to retcons.
 
I don't know what do you mean with "looks like". If you have evidence about TOAA of the House of Ideas being 'Shekinah' then show it.
In Kabbalah Shekhinah is manifestation of god in Malkuth sefirot in lowest of four world Assiah also known as World of action, TOAA resides in Keter but Malkuth sefirot as every sephirot encompasses ***** tree, so shown tree of life is part of bigger tree of life and located in Malkuth sephirot since it called world of action. Which makes TOAA shekhinah. And it stated what there creators of TOAA
I already answered this:
Nexus: exist above infinity hierarchy and transcends it above normal since every other dream is shadow of shadow of shadow of nexus.
HOI: doesn't have infinity hierarchy it just can't achieved through hierarchy.
Nexus sound a little bit better
Cool but irrelevant because it got retconned. I have no problems with High 1-A+ Oblivion, but not using that kind of disingenuous argumentation.
What got retconned?
We never see Oblivion true form. For some Mikaboshi need TOAA help to be defeated. For some reason aspect of aspect of oblivion is stronger than tiger god. For some reason there many void like realities in outside.
I’m not against the merge. I’m just saying that DeMatteis most of the time ignores the cosmological elements established by other authors. He did the same in DC: he ignored planes like the Sphere of the Gods and the Monitor Sphere, reducing the entire cosmology to a hierarchy of dreams leading toward the Divine Dreamer (hmm, sounds extremely familiar!). I’m not saying DeMatteis’s stories aren’t canon or that the merge can’t happen; I’m saying the cosmologies are inconsistent with each other due to retcons.
Didn't you miss part about Steve Gerber, mentions of Dematteis structures, and what even it contradicts logic, cosmology and other writers works it is still part of main continuity? There is J.M. Dematteis opinion about Steve Gerber.
 
In Kabbalah Shekhinah is manifestation of god in Malkuth sefirot in lowest of four world Assiah also known as World of action, TOAA resides in Keter but Malkuth sefirot as every sephirot encompasses ***** tree, so shown tree of life is part of bigger tree of life and located in Malkuth sephirot since it called world of action. Which makes TOAA shekhinah.

I understood almost nothing from your explanation.

You’re asserting that Shekhinah is the manifestation of God in Malkuth (the 10th sefirah), but at the same time you’re acknowledging that the House of Ideas is the Keter of Creation. So, make up your mind, is TOAA Shekhinah or not?? I didn’t understand the justification you tried to give for that because your English is very bad. You should use a better translator so I can understand your argument.

Shekhinah is a Kabbalistic concept mostly associated with a feminine aspect of God:

"In Jewish mysticism or Kabbalah, the shekhinah is given a distinctly female quality, often depicted as the divine feminine or feminine aspect of God, associated with attributes of love, compassion, justice, and healing."

Now I ask you: What does this have to do with TOAA from the House of Ideas?

If the inspiration really were that:

1) TOAA would be in the Kingdom (Malkuth)
2) TOAA would have a feminine appearance

What you’re doing here is a false correlation between two fictional concepts that have no real correlation with each other. It’s extremely forced.

You haven’t even shown evidence that the Divine Creator represents the Kabbalistic Ein Sof. Its inspiration is more Hindu than anything else. And even if both concepts were Kabbalistic, correlation to a common source doesn’t necessarily imply a connection; the two comics are far apart in time from each other and the interpretations of the cosmology of both authors is completely different.

And it stated what there creators of TOAA

Sure, there are Storytellers above TOAA. That doesn’t mean they are related to the Divine Creator or something like that. The concept used in that part of the story is (as I said before) the idea that the path toward understanding the nature of God is eternal and, because of that, the journey into mystery never ends, with that manifestation of TOAA simply being the limit of understanding.

"So the point is effectively that, since God is infinitely unknowable, the journey to understand it, and to understand ourselves (As the Sefirot also schematize humanity's spiritual path), is not one that can have an end. Therefore the Mystery's infinitude represents exactly that: The mystery of God, which can never be penetrated. Although we can peer into increasingly more primal "masks" of the Godhead, we can never see the face behind them all."
[Last Section of the Blog]

Al Ewing’s ideas and the Hindu philosophical background that DeMatteis introduces into his cosmology are completely different.

Nexus: exist above infinity hierarchy and transcends it above normal since every other dream is shadow of shadow of shadow of nexus.
HOI: doesn't have infinity hierarchy it just can't achieved through hierarchy.
Nexus sound a little bit better

If you want to merge the cosmologies of both authors, then you should prioritize the most recent information, so HOI is necessarily above the Nexus, as simple as that.

I don’t understand why you scale and compare both structures as if they were from separate verses when your intention with this blog is to unify both canons.

What got retconned?

I repeated that like 3 times already. What got retconned is the hierarchical structure. There are new existential planes above the Nexus, that's it.

We never see Oblivion true form. For some Mikaboshi need TOAA help to be defeated. For some reason aspect of aspect of oblivion is stronger than tiger god. For some reason there many void like realities in outside.

The true form of Oblivion is the void that precedes creation, that’s it. It’s been consistent to this day. I don’t know what this has to do with the main proposal of your thread regarding the Divine Creator.

Didn't you miss part about Steve Gerber, mentions of Dematteis structures, and what even it contradicts logic, cosmology and other writers works it is still part of main continuity? There is J.M. Dematteis opinion about Steve Gerber.

Quoting myself:

I’m not against the merge. I’m not saying DeMatteis’s stories aren’t canon or that the merge can’t happen; I’m saying the cosmologies are inconsistent with each other due to retcons.

Which should be obvious. In DeMatteis’s era, the cosmic hierarchy that exists today didn’t exist. Runs like Defenders Beyond brought significant changes to the entire setting.

You can’t just take into account statements from comics 20 years ago and ignore everything else that’s been established up to today that changes the old.
 
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And by the way, if what you mean is that the “world of action” is somehow the “Malkuth” of the “world of creation,” that’s not how Kabbalah works.

The four worlds of Kabbalah are simply levels of the manifestation of the Divine.

The world of action is Assiah, represented by the color green; the next one in the TOAA illustration is blue, which is the world of creation, i.e., Briah (for some reason Marvel swaps the positions of Yetzirah and Briah, which is why yellow is beyond blue).

Assiah is not the Malkuth of Briah or anything like that. The worlds and the sefirot are distinct things.
 
And by the way, if what you mean is that the “world of action” is somehow the “Malkuth” of the “world of creation,” that’s not how Kabbalah works.

The four worlds of Kabbalah are simply levels of the manifestation of the Divine.

The world of action is Assiah, represented by the color green; the next one in the TOAA illustration is blue, which is the world of creation, i.e., Briah (for some reason Marvel swaps the positions of Yetzirah and Briah, which is why yellow is beyond blue).

Assiah is not the Malkuth of Briah or anything like that. The worlds and the sefirot are distinct things.
Sorry for my bad English. I meant what in Kabbalah every world and every sefirot duplicates tree of life. TOAA resides in world of action/Assiah which also shown to have tree of life. And since TOAA resides in Assiah that makes him Shekhinah.
Whole my point is what Dematteis characters can exists above world of action. Since Divine creator more abstract and conceptual than TOAA, and it doesn't matter what Divine creator inspired by Hinduism since it is conceptual superiority. Nexus is exist in outside multiverse and have hierarchy of realities outside multiverse. Oblivion can exists in world of creation because there many voids in mystery and we never see true Oblivion. And it doesn't matter if it retconned or has inconsistencies because it is still part of main continuity, like nemesis or this guys which have more contradictions then Dematteis stuff but still part of main continuity. Dematteis still have same hierarchies within multiverse as main one.
 
I don't know what do you mean with "looks like". If you have evidence about TOAA of the House of Ideas being 'Shekinah' then show it.



Cool but irrelevant because it got retconned. I have no problems with High 1-A+ Oblivion, but not using that kind of disingenuous argumentation.



I already answered this:





I’m not against the merge. I’m just saying that DeMatteis most of the time ignores the cosmological elements established by other authors. He did the same in DC: he ignored planes like the Sphere of the Gods and the Monitor Sphere, reducing the entire cosmology to a hierarchy of dreams leading toward the Divine Dreamer (hmm, sounds extremely familiar!). I’m not saying DeMatteis’s stories aren’t canon or that the merge can’t happen; I’m saying the cosmologies are inconsistent with each other due to retcons.
How did Dematteis ignore the Sphere of Gods when we literally see Darkseid, the Lords of Order/Chaos, Apokolips, New Genesis, the Silver City, and various other godly realms throughout his stories?

The hierarchy of realer dreams within Dematteis and what’s on the map are literally the same thing. It’s the same framework it chain of being towards the absolute, just looked at differently. For example, the first ascension into these dreams beyond the baseline dream was represented as reaching the Silver City which is in the Sphere of Gods. And the progression of deeper dreams was depicted as a descent into the Collective Unconscious, which aligns with the mainstream cosmology since the Collective Unconscious is beyond the Sphere of Gods and responsible for emanating it.

And while Dematteis doesn’t explicitly explore the Monitor Sphere, his framework leaves room for it as a realm beyond the collective unconscious, which shouldn’t be surprising since he’s literally using the same cosmological framework as Morrison, Snyder, and all the other DC writers.
 
How did Dematteis ignore the Sphere of Gods when we literally see Darkseid, the Lords of Order/Chaos, Apokolips, New Genesis, the Silver City, and various other godly realms throughout his stories?
Being the same places ≠ having the same hierarchy / cosmology.
Some stories interpret those locations as literal locations, physical places you can travel. Assuming one thing from one aspect that isn't necessarily related isn't the best idea.
 
Being the same places ≠ having the same hierarchy / cosmology.
Some stories interpret those locations as literal locations, physical places you can travel. Assuming one thing from one aspect that isn't necessarily related isn't the best idea.
That’s not what I said. I said they’re the same because they’re both an ascent towards the non-dual Source/Overvoid, where the distinction between an individual and God dissolves. The reason I pointed out specific realms like the Silver City was to showcase how Dematteis’s representation of the chain of being, is even treating the realms ontologically the same as Morrison’s map. The same way the Sphere of Gods on the map represents a higher level that’s closer to God, Dematteis did it the same way, implying Heaven in Dematteis stories holds the same ontological weight as it does on the map.

I don’t think in any instance these realms are genuinely physical locations, but even if you had one or two scans, I’d definitely out gun you when it comes to evidence for them transcending those properties, so let’s not waste time doing that.
 
That’s not what I said. I said they’re the same because they’re both an ascent towards the non-dual Source/Overvoid, where the distinction between an individual and God dissolves. The reason I pointed out specific realms like the Silver City was to showcase how Dematteis’s representation of the chain of being, is even treating the realms ontologically the same as Morrison’s map. The same way the Sphere of Gods on the map represents a higher level that’s closer to God, Dematteis did it the same way, implying Heaven in Dematteis stories holds the same ontological weight as it does on the map.

I don’t think in any instance these realms are genuinely physical locations, but even if you had one or two scans, I’d definitely out gun you when it comes to evidence for them transcending those properties, so let’s not waste time doing that.
This applies for both Marvel and DC.
Assuming something without strong, consistent and clear evidence, especially with levels.
 
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