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MF I was going to >:v
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Devil May Cry: Beastheads Revisions
- Thread starter SuperSonicTL
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MF I was going to >:v
Hasty12345
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Not even remotely the same
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Gonna translate the scan myself in the meantime
The important part
The part about all possible dimensions and time
exclude the part about transcending, dimensions and time we have this
which is translated as
Which combine with the dimensions and time part we have
which of course can be reduced to all dimensions and time or every dimensions and time
Translate ありとあらゆる into all possible or every possible, well, isn't exactly wrong, because well, this line isn't mean much when stand alone, contexts is still matter
There you go
The important part
translated as:
The part about all possible dimensions and time
exclude the part about transcending, dimensions and time we have this
which is translated as
Which combine with the dimensions and time part we have
which of course can be reduced to all dimensions and time or every dimensions and time
Translate ありとあらゆる into all possible or every possible, well, isn't exactly wrong, because well, this line isn't mean much when stand alone, contexts is still matter
There you go
- 1,886
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- #45
Well, I want to remake the translation in mere appealing manner soo I ask @Mister6ame6 to remake it with the title and so. The only thing I changed was the "beyond all" to "transcending/beyond all possible" which makes it all the same. Plus, other credible translators I personally know suggested me the same. Soo just for sake of clarity, I put it in a more well defined manner there but the core idea remains the same either way.
Also @Vietthai96 just confirmed it.
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They have never posted a translation in our official thread, and in fact, have requested many translations.
So solely based off of that, I don't trust their translation abilities.
This is false.
The first sentence in the version you posted is:
While the first sentence in Red's version is:
Get your story in order, and stop making errors.
What exactly happened here? Take your time to respond, and make sure you get it right.
No, you rely on a very specific interpretation of the wording, which does not come through Red's old translation, or in Vietthai's suggestion.
No, from my reading he quite disagreed with your choice there.
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For context and stuff, this novel is all about a deus ex machina called the Beastheads, this is the artifact/demon that grants chen said infinite knowledge and precog.
In this very same novel the BH shows the ability to grant knowledge of parallel timelines and actually BFR people to said parallel worlds, the thing is that when talking about parallel timelines they actually call them that, parallel universes or worlds.
I just got out of the hospital so no much I can help with (this site sucks on phone)
In this very same novel the BH shows the ability to grant knowledge of parallel timelines and actually BFR people to said parallel worlds, the thing is that when talking about parallel timelines they actually call them that, parallel universes or worlds.
I just got out of the hospital so no much I can help with (this site sucks on phone)
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ngl, if we only looking at the part about all possible dimensions and time, well, yeah Low 1-A is pretty much 99% guaranteed
The thing is the character said about knowledge, knowledges is mental thing, non-physical, you can even call it is something abstract in some cases, anyway Knowledge should not be something tied to dimensionality. Next after the knowledge part we have dimensions and time part, which suddenly being interpreted as physical, mathematical dimensions kinda make no sense
So to me, the knowledge transcending all dimensions and time isn't mean transcending literal physical, mathematical dimensions but rather transcending dimensions and time as in metaphysic, mental concept of dimension and time, a grand way to say dimensions, time are irrelevant to his knowledges as his knowledges encompasses, make him knows everything
The thing is the character said about knowledge, knowledges is mental thing, non-physical, you can even call it is something abstract in some cases, anyway Knowledge should not be something tied to dimensionality. Next after the knowledge part we have dimensions and time part, which suddenly being interpreted as physical, mathematical dimensions kinda make no sense
So to me, the knowledge transcending all dimensions and time isn't mean transcending literal physical, mathematical dimensions but rather transcending dimensions and time as in metaphysic, mental concept of dimension and time, a grand way to say dimensions, time are irrelevant to his knowledges as his knowledges encompasses, make him knows everything
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@Vietthai96 from what I could see seemed to agree that all possible and beyond dimensions were preserved with them being in his metric, translated as "all sorts of dimensions" or alternatively "all kinds of dimensions" which is to say all possible dimensions synonymously.
Tbh, the rest like the first sentence for instance is more irrelevant in my opinion and is barely worth the time of day. Although I will say that it seems this "Red" individual agreed that it's "beyond all dimensions and time" and "all" of something would is not to much a leap behind "all possible" especially with what we learn from what @Vietthai96 had said this far. Regardless, it's your call @Agnaa.
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let me clarify, i just translate stuffs, all sorts of dimensions or all kinds of dimensions mean nothing in a vacuum, what matter is determine dimensions here is mathematical dimensions, or just your everyday dimension as in world, place, realm, etc...
There are also the last part which said about from the beginning to the end of history, this part pretty much referring to time part before it, so no, time here isn't mean temporal dimension
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Fair enough we would need to specify mathematical dimensions are in play here. It'll fall to @Agnaa although I'm not sure what temporal dimension plays on things seeing as the DW (which has a temporal dimension) would fall under the category you highlighted per the context of Chen's quote here.
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- #53
You don't understand. I'm in contact with @Mister6ame6 privately in Discord DMs. I just provide him this link and asked him to remake it with a new title and add in:
There is no malicious intent there. My purpose was to add in the nuance that @TISSG7Redgrave left and wished to fulfill it since he is not much active these days to work on it at time. I'll clarify it more later.
Hmmm... That's weird. I got this imgur which has been there for a while on the wiki Discord server I'm at:
The only thing I did was ask Mister to change "beyond all" to "transcending/beyond all possible" for clarity sake because it would be controversial (which the previous page on the thread proved me correct) & your wiki clearly needs spoon feeding after PoC fracisco, that's all.
The pillar of this entire translation:
The scan says & what Vietthai pointed out:
Now let's look into the key statement:
The scan for screenshot and imgur link says:
Let's break it down in detail:
What I did: "Transcending/beyond" that's confirmed as they both have same meaning here either way soo Vietthai excluded it. Dimensions and time remains the same for every translation here soo that's literally unquestionable.
Now look at the last point here:
What Vietthai said for it:
Now, let me ask you this:
When you compare “all possible” with “all kinds of” or “all sorts of” then don’t you see how they are functionally interchangeable in this context? They all convey completeness which is exactly what ありとあらゆる implies?
Conclusion
What's the entire translation would be according to Vetthai:What Red's translation said:
As you can see yourself. Red’s version actually drops the nuance of variety. I simply just fulfilled with an alternative.
In addition, what Vietthai said
End point? I have nothing to fear about as my core point will remain the same. The translation on the server by Red in the screenshot and the imgur blog that was there since 2020 was an innocent mistake on my part as I only focused on the last line that focus on low 1-A statement and not the entire translation from above. I just felt like both are the same from below.
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Now time to tackle the remaining:
Point proven again.
But you see Vietthai, the knowledge part stems directly from Beastheads as I very clearly pointed out on my counter-point section of the thread. That knowledge is directly related to Beastheads' vision so it's not all in the air to think it is talking from a figurative sense.
Well that's your opinion then, but the context treats knowledge directly tied to Clairvoyance and it likely means that he can see beyond all spatial and temporal dimensions. Atleast, from my perspective in contrast to many individuals here.
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ExcelsisBerny
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This is completely correct.
I’d like to add something using the same translation provided by the OP:
On this specific occasion, the statement obviously does not speak in a void/generic context, since it is mentioned that the character’s purpose is to obtain “knowledge” of something, which can only be obtained from something that concretely exists within the fictional verse itself.
In other words, if for example, I want to obtain knowledge of everything that exists in a verse whose cosmology is only 2-B, then I am going to obtain knowledge of all the worlds that make up that 2-B set.
In this case, that statement clearly refers to all the possible in-verse dimensions, meaning all the possible dimensions within the verse, with “all possible” being a universal quantifier that alludes to everything that constitutes that set itself.
It’s a declaration that is inherently contingent on the size of cosmology you’re analyzing.
If the verse isn’t L1-A, then that statement cannot be referring to a L1-A level.
And just to be clear, I am NOT saying that a statement of this kind can’t scale you to Low 1-A, but for that to be possible in a context like this there would need to be (at a minimum) a 1-A plane in the cosmology that demonstrates that the set of “all possible” dimensions extends all the way to the edge of the Low 1-A tier.
I don’t think that’s the case here.
So well, I disagree with that.
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Question for you: Did the wiki ever demanded to have a Low 1-A cosmology for such statement to work in the first place? I don't think that's the case.
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uhm, unless i misunderstand your comment, correct me, but, generally speaking, you don't need to have a 1-A cosmology first for anything Low 1-A though
ExcelsisBerny
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Did you read my entire message? It’s literally basic logic.
If you use a universal quantifier referring to a set of something specific, then obviously that statement will refer to that specific thing within what the verse itself demonstrates, duh.
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It would not be merely 2-B as the DW being an infinite area means characters like Vergil with his dimension hopping sword have literally infinite choices on where they might wander within the DW. Axiomatically for DMC's case this would be a 2-A Multiverse. No lower. If this is not blatant enough for you consider characters who have infinite abilities listed and would thus have infinite possible choices which feeds into the multiverse's own criteria leading to a 2-A minimum multiverse.
ExcelsisBerny
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ExcelsisBerny
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I used the 2-B as an example...
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Good. Just felt I should do the good service of clarifying in case confusion sneaks in for anyone watching.
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Oke, so you meant that since the verse cosmology isn't Low 1-A , so trying to obtains Low 1-A knowledge is nonsensical since the limit of the verse it tier 2 only, right?, but why the 1-A part??, cause from what i can understand in your comment then you only need a Low 1-A cosmology, no need for 1-A
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Because you can have low 1-A power derived from a 1-A realm without a low 1-A cosmology.
ExcelsisBerny
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Because if a verse is 1-A, then it necessarily comprises the complete set of all possible spatiotemporal differentiations (Low 1-A), and therefore the verse’s statement would encompass that set rather than a more limited one.
It’s an example of how, in this context, it could scale to that level.
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- #66
That's no basic logic if wiki hasn't addressed it, mate. I think someone has to clarify how Low 1-A via statement works in relationship to cosmology on the wiki.
ExcelsisBerny
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I’ll restate it once more (and for the last time), trying to simplify my point as much as possible:
(1) The character’s purpose is to obtain knowledge of cosmological constructs.
(2) Obtaining knowledge of a dimension is an action that can only be carried out if that dimension exists within the narrative of the verse in question, which means the statement is contingent on the verse’s actual cosmology.
(3) If the verse does not have a Low 1-A cosmology, then that statement cannot be L1-A, since “all possible dimensions” in this context refers (1 and 2) to the set of all dimensions the verse itself possesses
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Agree with this looks good
The raws literally mention that Chen after eating BH got knogeable above ALL possible dimensions and time that's a textbook 1-A statement there, i'm fall to see the problem here since you can have powers above your cosmology, yet still not fully scale to it.
The raws literally mention that Chen after eating BH got knogeable above ALL possible dimensions and time that's a textbook 1-A statement there, i'm fall to see the problem here since you can have powers above your cosmology, yet still not fully scale to it.
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1) Yes, that's true.
2) Then that simply just means Low 1-A dimension exists via that statement?
3) No. The statement is clear as day referring to Chen's clairvoyance capabilities that allows him to look beyond all sorts of limitations—whether he wants to understand the laws of the universe, from beginning of history to the end (symbolizing past, present and future which Beastheads stated to embody), understand everything (has infinite knowledge) and last but not least, beyond all dimensions and time (he already has the range to cast fate hax across parallel universes). Understandably, none of that has to do anything with this figurative jar or whatever. I understand it's controversial, but I don't see any sort of convincing arguments from anyone here.
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ExcelsisBerny
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????? That’s literally circular reasoning, what.
You have to demonstrate the verse is Low 1-A in the first place; I’ve already mentioned how “all possible dimensions” is subject to context and doesn’t have to be absolutist, and it can also be a set of everything relativized to what the verse itself contains. That’s literally what is being put into question.
Thank you for confirming that the statement is contingent on the verse cosmology once more.
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well, this is a better explanation lol
MeiouHades
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I was sent here by someone. Yeah, the Low 1-A part doesn't make sense to me. Its reasoning is pretty blatantly tautological here and just doesn't work. Obtaining Low 1-A power or knowledge without a Low 1-A or higher cosmology makes no sense. In other words, for that statement to mean that you must first prove that such a cosmology exists in the first place. Using inductive reasoning to hypothesize such a cosmology (or in this case, power) existing and using that statement as evidence of that just doesn't work, that's circular logic as I said.
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In discord or dms?
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ExcelsisBerny, MeiouHades, etc are correct. There's yet to be any conclusive evidence of anywhere near a High 1-B/1-A "vertical" hierarchy of planes. The burden of proof is on the OP to establish that DMC's cosmology is on such a scale.
That said, from what I've had time to examine, a bigger Tier 2 cosmology might be plausible. Who, if anyone, scales to it and in what respects is another matter. Also note that you can have even infinite universes + extra realms yet have those extra realms remain "parallel" to the multiverse and thus remain Tier 2; again, "vertical" hierarchy.
As for the hax/resistances, there is a lot of sourcing and I think I generally agree. But some of the language (such as the Death Manipulation bit) does sound flowery. Not certain which of the Beastheads' abilities are & aren't resisted by any ol' d-mans. I might just re-read the whole source material myself come the next free rainy day to be totally up to speed again before weighing in further.
Would have been nice to deal with the matter of hax/resistances and these big claims about cosmology in separate discussions so as to give each more complete scrutiny & reasoning, though it's too late for that now. Hopefully these as-of-yet extremely shaky 1A claims don't sink any more potentially fruitful topics. For that matter, it seems that translations themselves are in the air again -- again, you thought an anonymous Discord message, evidentially recapping someone else's Discord message, in the OP was a good idea when you could have went to the boards on here to verify instead? -- so I'm not sure how much to invest on these foundations.
That said, from what I've had time to examine, a bigger Tier 2 cosmology might be plausible. Who, if anyone, scales to it and in what respects is another matter. Also note that you can have even infinite universes + extra realms yet have those extra realms remain "parallel" to the multiverse and thus remain Tier 2; again, "vertical" hierarchy.
As for the hax/resistances, there is a lot of sourcing and I think I generally agree. But some of the language (such as the Death Manipulation bit) does sound flowery. Not certain which of the Beastheads' abilities are & aren't resisted by any ol' d-mans. I might just re-read the whole source material myself come the next free rainy day to be totally up to speed again before weighing in further.
Would have been nice to deal with the matter of hax/resistances and these big claims about cosmology in separate discussions so as to give each more complete scrutiny & reasoning, though it's too late for that now. Hopefully these as-of-yet extremely shaky 1A claims don't sink any more potentially fruitful topics. For that matter, it seems that translations themselves are in the air again -- again, you thought an anonymous Discord message, evidentially recapping someone else's Discord message, in the OP was a good idea when you could have went to the boards on here to verify instead? -- so I'm not sure how much to invest on these foundations.
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That's rather weird because I don't remember anything like cosmology establishment for such tier? Well, I suppose it's futile to argue it then since almost everyone disagreeing for one reason or another. I will cross it out just in case but I'll discuss it later for clarification.
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MeiouHades
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You're missing a very crucial detail within the standards. However, if they are applied to realms that can be inferred to surpass the very composition of the lower reality (e.g. Realms that are, themselves, non-composite, such as conceptual domains, or often, voids of nothingness), then 1-A is the most appropriate rating for them.
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Okay that's convincing. Fair enough—I'll back down from this then.
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I'm a bit ninja'd by MeiouHades on this, but I'll add that you might be thinking of how Reality > Fiction 1-A had a big "fire sale" recently due to some verses meeting many, very specific requirements despite not having that many planes in their vertical hierarchies, which is an unrelated can of worms. There are also some profiles such as that for Arceus from Pokemon that have 1-A stats for existing above/before "any space-time structures at all whatsoever" even if their settings don't have High 1-B infinite hierarchies of space-time planes, although such characters have their own set of very specific qualia to meet & are heavily contested besides.
Anyway, I recommend this thread focus on the Beastheads' hax & demons' resistances to them from now on. I am interested in potential expansion of the cosmology since a bigger Tier 2 setting seems possible based on the sources in the OP & the blog linked at its end, but I think it would be wise to do some translation-checking through proper channels first & devote a thread to that specifically to address what if anything that cosmology info would entail. I'll also try to soon re-read the Beasthead stuff straight from the source to help collaborate/scrutinize the OP, though those already caught up on that are welcome to chime in, of course.
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Makes sense. I was only persisting because the arguments were rather weak and doesn't address the core point of this discussion and just chalked it up to attempts to downgrade the nature of dimensions itself or make it sound figurative when it isn't exactly the case considering the context behind the said knowledge and so. But I'm glad someone sourced it out eventually.
This all wouldn't be a problem if @TISSG7Redgrave was here which he isn't. What actually happened is that there was this obscure imgur link on the same server Red was and others were using it soo I mistook it as legitimate for a long time—especially considering it was provided to me recently by @Mister6ame6 who is a credible resource provider for the verse to make this thread. Later upon asking about the translation, Tony tagged his reply on the server and I simply screenshotted it and posted it in here alongside him. It is just recently pointed by Agnaa and others that translation from Red is different & I was scratching my hair there. After carefully looking at the matter further, Red's version of translation itself is incomplete because neither he mentioned the principles/laws of the universe phrase (この世の理のすべてを) nor the nuances that has to do with all sort of/all kind of/all possible...
But that's besides the point, as it has been verified by Vietthai now and the only translations we are using besides the above one and death manipulation (which exists on the page already soo I've nothing to argue here for it), there is this Fate hax novel translation provided to me by @Mister6ame6 but now I need to verify it because after this incident I'm not sure what translation should I believe on anymore... Other then that, almost all novels are English localized soo everything will fair up. That being said, will you verify the fate hax translation for me here if you have time? @Vietthai96
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ExcelsisBerny
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