Marvel Comics: Herald-tier Speed Downgrade

[Osemere]

Currently, Marvel herald-tiers in their MFTL+ justifications are rated as “at least 1 planck” in speed, but the issue is that this isn’t actually a value, and being “1 planck” in speed doesn’t actually mean anything (since a “planck” isn’t a measurement, and even if it was, you can’t get a speed value from an isolated measurement like this). Looking back at the thread in which this was originally accepted, it was mostly shafted under the first proposal of upgrading high-heralds to infinite speed, and not a lot of discussion was due to the actual feat itself (which isn’t to say that the thread is invalid, just that I don’t think the feat itself got discussed enough).

It should also be noted here that the feat was added in justifications without a value being formally calculated first, which to my knowledge doesn’t actually fit procedure. Separately, I also think the feat isn’t legitimate for MFTL+ and should be removed.

The feat in question is from Dark X-Men Vol 1 #3, in which Nate Grey and Ares fight in the “planck length between moments”, which is then extrapolated to mean that mid-tier heralds (like Ares) therefore have perception speeds operating on the scale of a planck time (or 10^-43 seconds). The context is that Nate Grey enters this state in order to drag in Mimic, a mutant with the capacity to copy other being’s powers. Nate then explains that this state is one of his three hundred ways of seeing, and in this state he can see people spread across time, including their pasts and futures. Simply by walking through the images of people’s histories within this state can you change their perceptions of their pasts, while changing the past itself to signal things into the future (as seen in tribes people seeing this entire fight happening as signaled in the stars). Nate then ends this state with a wave of his hand by getting “back to normal time”.

At the start of this fight Nate says that he could not find anything that could counter Ares, due to personifying war on every plane, and every future, too. This is likely referring to Ares’ god physiology, which we ourselves see as giving a state of acausality and “separation” from normal time. It’s more likely that Ares’ ability to find Nate even while hiding “amongst time” is due to this, and the very state of perception that Nate has to phase into (which allows for the perceptions of the pasts and futures of those around him) would be better rated as immeasurable than MFTL+, anyways (due to being able to see past and futures mapped spatially and being able to consequently affect them). Even if Ares’ physiology as a god isn’t accepted as a likely reason for Ares being able to impede on Nate in this state, it should still be noted that this is something Nate has to actively phase into (while Ares passively is able to react to it) and not some passive perception speed, and the state itself is more accurately indexed as immeasurable. As mid-tiers are more consistently portrayed with finite speeds, it would be additionally inconsistent to scale them to this immeasurable feat alongside it being actively done by someone who reaches skyfather levels casually (Nate) and someone who could passively react to it likely due to their acausality originating from their godhood (Ares).

As for whom this would affect, all profiles with the “at least 1 planck” statistic, which includes:

• Hulk
• Magik
• Hyperion (Avengers)
• Blackheart
• Red Hulk
• The Sentry
• Magus
• Gorr the God Butcherer
• Namor
• Hercules
• Colossus
• Jane Foster
• Skaar
• Firelord
• Silver Surfer
• Drax the Destroyer
• Doctor Doom
• Gladiator
• Cyclops
• Anti-Man
• Emma Frost
• Captain Marvel
• Blue Marvel
• Thor
• Terrax
• Air-Walker
• She-Hulk
• Maestro
• Red She-Hulk
• Volstagg
• Count Nefaria
• Beta Ray Bill
• Stardust
• Angela
• Hope Summers
• King Hyperion
• Challenger

Agree: @Antvasima @DarkDragonMedeus @Maverick_Zero_X
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

That makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Eseseso @Excellence616 @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack @Eficiente @Adr10K @The_Impress

We would appreciate your help here.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Tentatively agree with removing the feat, always found the wording around it to be iffy.

Will wait for others to argue for it though.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Disagree with a couple minor points, but overall, I agree with the feat being invalid. Is there an Mftl+ feat that will replace it? What did we use before?

 

[KLOL506]

@Eseseso @Kulf_Boba

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Planck Length reaction time thing never made sense to me.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree with the downgrade.

Is there an Mftl+ feat that will replace it? What did we use before?

The feats we used before for MFTL+ were accepted to be infinite speed because most of the feats are moving across the universe, transversing universes, etc.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm fine with this, so long as we figure out a replacement speed value.

 

[ObberGobb]

This seems to make sense to me. Could it be kept as a feat for God Tier characters though?

 

[Eficiente]

This is correct.

It’s more likely that Ares’ ability to find Nate even while hiding “amongst time” is due to this, and the very state of perception that Nate has to phase into (which allows for the perceptions of the pasts and futures of those around him) would be better rated as immeasurable than MFTL+, anyways (due to being able to see past and futures mapped spatially and being able to consequently affect them).

It's more likely that the state grants such abilities rather than the speed alone doing it. Because speed alone doesn't show saturated projections of people in the past and future, with nothing else being shown and only some projections of them across time being shown. It can be time-related (outside of time, amongst time, etc) and grant such abilities at once, without needing to be Immeasurable speed because it grants seeing past & futures mapped spatially and being able to affect them.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

This seems to make sense to me. Could it be kept as a feat for God Tier characters though?

no since it is just a hax feat not speed feat.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Fully agree with the proposal.

 

[Osemere]

Disagree with a couple minor points, but overall, I agree with the feat being invalid. Is there an Mftl+ feat that will replace it? What did we use before?

The problem is that many MFTL+ tiers were rated from scaling to Thor (such as Hyperion, Namor, Hulk, etc.) through linking to these two blogs (1, 2), with the issue being that these feats have been accepted as infinite due to involving crossing the universe or the distances between the 9 realms, while before they were just the accepted MFTL+ values. Other mid-tiers (such as Carol, Gladiator, etc.) have their own MFTL+ values they individually scale to, both Carol's feat is travel speed and Gladiator's is an instance of him blitzing Heimdall, which probably shouldn't be accepted as MFTL+ anyways since we rate Asgard as being like an infinite distance away from Earth and him perceiving things that far away is his whole thing. Silver Surfer in his MFTL+ key has universe-spanning feats in his justification which probably should be infinite now based on the accepted thread, and he and Thor are basically the two most MFTL+ characters scale to (Hulk scales to them, Red Hulk scales to him, Blackheart scales to Red Hulk, etc.)

Open to suggestions for what we should do here -- maybe just scale them to that Gladiator feat even if it's seemingly inconsistent?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The problem is that many MFTL+ tiers were rated from scaling to Thor (such as Hyperion, Namor, Hulk, etc.) through linking to these two blogs (1, 2), with the issue being that these feats have been accepted as infinite due to involving crossing the universe or the distances between the 9 realms, while before they were just the accepted MFTL+ values. Other mid-tiers (such as Carol, Gladiator, etc.) have their own MFTL+ values they individually scale to, both Carol's feat is travel speed and Gladiator's is an instance of him blitzing Heimdall, which probably shouldn't be accepted as MFTL+ anyways since we rate Asgard as being like an infinite distance away from Earth and him perceiving things that far away is his whole thing. Silver Surfer in his MFTL+ key has universe-spanning feats in his justification which probably should be infinite now based on the accepted thread, and he and Thor are basically the two most MFTL+ characters scale to (Hulk scales to them, Red Hulk scales to him, Blackheart scales to Red Hulk, etc.)

Open to suggestions for what we should do here -- maybe just scale them to that Gladiator feat even if it's seemingly inconsistent?

There are only two options, really:

1) Upgrade mid-tiers to Infinite speed (wishful thinking)

2) Compile all the mid-tier MFTL+ feats and values and use that (most likely to be accepted)

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

There are only two options, really:

1) Upgrade mid-tiers to Infinite speed (wishful thinking)

2) Compile all the mid-tier MFTL+ feats and values and use that (most likely to be accepted)

I'll keep an eye out for MFTL+ feats in my Thor read-through. Mostly found FTL+ or infinite so far but I'll keep looking

 

[Excellence616]

There are only two options, really:

1) Upgrade mid-tiers to Infinite speed (wishful thinking)

2) Compile all the mid-tier MFTL+ feats and values and use that (most likely to be accepted)

Or downscale them from High Heralds infinite speed

 

[Muteki616]

Infinite speed mid tiers is hilarious
bc like Carol Danvers literally blitzes the league and the Z fighters at once if this happens .

Scratch that; Nova.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Quick question. I'm assuming we follow the logic of the wiki of travel speed = combat speed. What would you say to someone who doesn't accept those two as equivalent?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Quick question. I'm assuming we follow the logic of the wiki of travel speed = combat speed. What would you say to someone who doesn't accept those two as equivalent?

Put that in Q&A, you'll get a better answer.

 

[Tomfer]

MFTL+ travel speed, Infinite combat speed gg.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I also think that this seems to make sense.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Removing the feat makes sense.

If we need replacement feats for the 3-C characters I think Heralds of Galactus have quite a lot of showings on this level (Firelord and Binary battling across "a few light-years" and Firelord firing a blast to "the edge of known space" off the top of head).

 

[Antvasima]

Thor has also moved instantly across the entire Marvel universe or nearly instantly across many realities if I remember correctly.

 

[Osemere]

Thor has also moved instantly across the entire Marvel universe or nearly instantly across many realities if I remember correctly.

Yes, but that’s rated as infinite on his profile. So we need other MFTL+ feats for the mid-tiers to scale to.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Understood.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Is Gladiator's feat of blitzing Heimdall going to be an outlier now?

 

[Antvasima]

Is Gladiator's feat of blitzing Heimdall going to be an outlier now?

Was planck time mentioned during it?

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Was planck time mentioned during it?

No, it was him crossing the distance between wherever he was and Asgard, which was called at MFTL+ but should be Infinite speed by wiki standards.

 

[ObberGobb]

No, it was him crossing the distance between wherever he was and Asgard, which was called at MFTL+ but should be Infinite speed by wiki standards.

I feel like, by its nature, that would just be dimensional travel. I think the speed feat would just be blitzing Heimdall.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I feel like, by its nature, that would just be dimensional travel. I think the speed feat would just be blitzing Heimdall.

If you say so.

 

[Eficiente]

MFTL+ travel speed, Infinite combat speed gg.

For the record, in my experience I see as way too normalized to separate travel speed from combat speed stats to not have them be seen as outliers in a way that makes no sense for a series. It's more so a Vs Debater thing to rationalize adding those stats and feel better about it, but if the media itself doesn't separate travel speed from combat speed then the separation is nonsense. It's like one is faking compromisation by settling down for less and not have the higher speed everywhere, when in reality they may be adding what might be simply an outlier by portraying it in a more agreeable way.

Here, mid-tiers don't grow infinitely faster in combat. Either give them all MFTL+ speed or all Infinite speed, which makes anti-feats at their best outside of combat anti-feats to the entire structure of everyone who shares that Infinite speed, as it should be. That would be logical.

Separate travel speed from combat speed needs reasons, showing characters having methods of travel portrayed as faster or slower. Here we would have nothing substancial to show to a viewer, no? We would just expect them to believe the infinite separation is a real thing the characters have going on in-universe.

 

[Antvasima]

It isn't logical in real world terms to separate running speed and combat speed, but Marvel Comics in particular does so to extremes anyway, as do plenty of other fictions, so we have to accommodate that in lack of better options.

 

[KLOL506]

Quick question. I'm assuming we follow the logic of the wiki of travel speed = combat speed. What would you say to someone who doesn't accept those two as equivalent?

This doesn't work with Infinite Speed as infinity divided by anything is infinity.

 

[KLOL506]

MFTL+ travel speed, Infinite combat speed gg.

Wouldn't work due to the above comment I made, plus the whole gang can traverse infinite distances anyhow which would make the MFTL+ travel part nonsensical.

At best you'd go back to "MFTL+ when holding back, Infinite at peak".

 

[Eficiente]

It isn't logical in real world terms to separate running speed and combat speed, but Marvel Comics in particular does so to extremes anyway, as do plenty of other fictions, so we have to accommodate that in lack of better options.

To clarify, I don't agree with these characters having Infinite speed, but they can't be downgrated from it in this thread. This thread can only follow procedure from our scaling, and it would be up another thread to downgrate if that ever happens. And if that happens, they need to have the disastrous Infinite speed as part of the things they have wrong. Hence I said

Infinite speed, which makes anti-feats at their best outside of combat anti-feats to the entire structure of everyone who shares that Infinite speed, as it should be. That would be logical.

And this is not just cynicism, I meant that this is literally what makes sense to do. Like I said it makes all the sense that these characters would have 1 speed; They need evidence on their travel speed being faster, and from the looks of it we won't provide that, no? Also, does "Marvel Comics in particular does so to extremes" mean "some Marvel characters do so, so all Marvel characters here should have it as well here"? Because if so then that's clearly as flawed view.

I also suspect that a number of these characters with this "difference between travel and combat speed" have that difference being negligent, at which point said "difference between travel and combat speed" is not a innate pass for one being Infinite and the other infinitely less.

 

[Tomfer]

For the record, in my experience I see as way too normalized to separate travel speed from combat speed stats to not have them be seen as outliers in a way that makes no sense for a series. It's more so a Vs Debater thing to rationalize adding those stats and feel better about it, but if the media itself doesn't separate travel speed from combat speed then the separation is nonsense. It's like one is faking compromisation by settling down for less and not have the higher speed everywhere, when in reality they may be adding what might be simply an outlier by portraying it in a more agreeable way.

Here, mid-tiers don't grow infinitely faster in combat. Either give them all MFTL+ speed or all Infinite speed, which makes anti-feats at their best outside of combat anti-feats to the entire structure of everyone who shares that Infinite speed, as it should be. That would be logical.

Separate travel speed from combat speed needs reasons, showing characters having methods of travel portrayed as faster or slower. Here we would have nothing substancial to show to a viewer, no? We would just expect them to believe the infinite separation is a real thing the characters have going on in-universe.

Wouldn't work due to the above comment I made, plus the whole gang can traverse infinite distances anyhow which would make the MFTL+ travel part nonsensical.

At best you'd go back to "MFTL+ when holding back, Infinite at peak".

It was an off-comment/joke.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I've tracked down a plethora of replacement feats and calcs for the mid-tiers:

• Carol Danvers could travel multiple light years over the course of hours on one occasion and in a couple of minutes at most in her fight against Starbrand. (A supporting feat would be this Relativistic calc)
• Iron Man fly to the Sun at FTL speed.
• An old web archive calc has an FTL+ feat for Silver Surfer
• Gladiator has this old MFTL+ web archive calc, flew light years in seconds, and kept up with a ship through Hyperspace.
• 616 Hyperion flew to the Sun pretty quickly, I personally calced it here but it hasn't been evaluated yet.

 

[Eficiente]

It was an off-comment/joke.

Ok. With how casual threads can get, I didn't notice it.

 

[Osemere]

bump