General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Rosa]

That's literally just a trash Anti feat we've seen PLENTY of characters easily destroy Planet's, Green Lanterns, Superman, Doomsday, etc

That's literally the point I'm making.

It's the same question of how Superman after being Mega Sun dipped and literally falcon punching the World Forger only managed to make a big Continent sized mark on the world...instead of literally eviscerating it, but ig according to you all those people are country level and rhat punch was Multi Continental max

No, because that punch also destroyed the multiverse the World Forger had constructed around them and so this just isn't a good analogy. Even if the feat did only leave a crater, we can excuse a character not destroying their environment when they're not intended to via the site principle of power != destruction but we can't ignore when a character does intend to destroy their environment and fail to do so as these are two categorically different kinds of things. One's an anti-feat, the other is a lack of a feat.

Authors aren't power scalers. The same authors you're arguing are consistent are also doing things like making Superman fight beings who possess higher dimensional energies, are living universes, fight beings who can retcon reality with a punch. You can't possibly appeal to authors for consistency when we're in this mess due to the very fact they're inconsistent.

This is why death of the author exists.

Death of the Author doesn't help you here. If you want to argue the author has no weight over the literary meaning of a story then all we can appeal to when making an interpretation is the facts within the literature, and the facts presented don't consistently align with a certain interpretation which is being pushed. Further, the site doesn't accept Death of the Author as we take author intention as a credible basis to claim something is true of a certain piece of media - for instance some profiles have author twitter statements as their basis for claims.

If you want to instead posit that because authors don't intend for their story to be powerscaled we cannot hold a standard of consistency, then that relies on the author bearing weight, but also is self-defeating because at that point you're claiming no powerscaling can occur.

Also, I hate using Whataboutisms,
but if you use this argument on DC/Marvel you should also apply this argument for every other verse. (looking at Dragonball who hasn’t had a 4D feat since BoG.)

This isn't true for the anime continuity, but also you're conflating a lack of feats for anti-feats. You'd admit there's a huge difference between a character who performed a uni+ feat once and then didn't do so again VS a character who performed a uni+ feat and then is stated to be only planetary, to die from planetary attacks, to be in awe at planetary levels of energy, etc.

As consistent as possible? Naruto has been Faster than sound since the end of Pt1 but couldn't make it 30 meters in 3 seconds to stop Pain from using Almighty Push/Pull Goku's headass is sending entire blasts of energy at enemies on a Planet, the enemy dodges, and said Beams DONT EVEN PUT A DENT IN THE FLOOR Luffy has been dodging Light since the Pre Timeskip/Beginning of TS yet is still fighting a dude who is MADE OF LIGHT

Again, I don't know if this is a lost concept on the site, but the rules here haven't been changed.

A character not destroying something when they don't intend to isn't a valid anti-feat given we accept it's almost a trope now of fictional characters holding back the destructive capacity of their attacks - especially in a verse like Dragon Ball where we have in-universe acknowledgement of ki being able to do this - HOWEVER if a character IS trying to destroy something yet their attack fails to destroy it then we do have to ask ourselves if it's narratively coherent to claim they have the power to destroy this thing.

That doesn't mean the answer is always no, btw, it's possible for a character to have anti-feats that get drowned in the abundance of their feats - you'll notice I said already I don't agree with Superman being limited to planetary or agree with this anti-feat being taken too seriously - however it's undeniable that scenes like this should at least be noted because things like this can also build up and drown the feats. For example, if Superman has one tier 2 feat but then ten showings of being below planetary, then we ought to reassess tier 2 scaling - and so our point here is to just be mindful of the growing anti-feats you amass by trying to argue the highest tier possible for your favourite comic book characters and desperately denying the reliability of anti-feats as a concept isn't doing your position any favours.

 

[FroYoSans]

That's literally the point I'm making.

No, because that punch also destroyed the multiverse the World Forger had constructed around them and so this just isn't a good analogy. Even if the feat did only leave a crater, we can excuse a character not destroying their environment when they're not intended to via the site principle of power != destruction but we can't ignore when a character does intend to destroy their environment and fail to do so as these are two categorically different kinds of things. One's an anti-feat, the other is a lack of a feat.

Death of the Author doesn't help you here. If you want to argue the author has no weight over the literary meaning of a story then all we can appeal to when making an interpretation is the facts within the literature, and the facts presented don't consistently align with a certain interpretation which is being pushed. Further, the site doesn't accept Death of the Author as we take author intention as a credible basis to claim something is true of a certain piece of media - for instance some profiles have author twitter statements as their basis for claims.

If you want to instead posit that because authors don't intend for their story to be powerscaled we cannot hold a standard of consistency, then that relies on the author bearing weight, but also is self-defeating because at that point you're claiming no powerscaling can occur.

This isn't true for the anime continuity, but also you're conflating a lack of feats for anti-feats. You'd admit there's a huge difference between a character who performed a uni+ feat once and then didn't do so again VS a character who performed a uni+ feat and then is stated to be only planetary, to die from planetary attacks, to be in awe at planetary levels of energy, etc.

Again, I don't know if this is a lost concept on the site, but the rules here haven't been changed.

A character not destroying something when they don't intend to isn't a valid anti-feat given we accept it's almost a trope now of fictional characters holding back the destructive capacity of their attacks - especially in a verse like Dragon Ball where we have in-universe acknowledgement of ki being able to do this - HOWEVER if a character IS trying to destroy something yet their attack fails to destroy it then we do have to ask ourselves if it's narratively coherent to claim they have the power to destroy this thing.

That doesn't mean the answer is always no, btw, it's possible for a character to have anti-feats that get drowned in the abundance of their feats - you'll notice I said already I don't agree with Superman being limited to planetary or agree with this anti-feat being taken too seriously - however it's undeniable that scenes like this should at least be noted because things like this can also build up and drown the feats. For example, if Superman has one tier 2 feat but then ten showings of being below planetary, then we ought to reassess tier 2 scaling - and so our point here is to just be mindful of the growing anti-feats you amass by trying to argue the highest tier possible for your favourite comic book characters and desperately denying the reliability of anti-feats as a concept isn't doing your position any favours.

Same ******* multiverse was in a ******* ANVIL A TINY TINY POINT OF CONTACT COMPARED TO EVERYTHING ELSE, the literal strongest punch we'd EVER EVER EVER seen from Superman at that point and despite somehow destroying the Forger's multiversal anvil only put that crater on Earth, the entire feat was a destruction based feat and it was terrible for that, the AP is good but the DC that's supposed to be there is trash.

Nice cherry picking only using 1 of my ******* examples bro, you also completely ignored the 2 examples I gave which would highly downgrade Naruto and Luffy despite them supposedly being above those levels. Ridiculous. ******* insanity.

Below Planetary, I'm reading absolute lord holy God, why am I even reading this shit anymore, downgrade them all to City Level, Supersonic JL minus Flash who is Hypersonic, insanity

 

[FroYoSans]

Ok, you're just not getting anything.

I already told you I'm never gonna agree with you on this, especially current run

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I think you both need to chill out.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Please try to calm down and be nice and respectful to each other.

 

[Adr10K]

I think you both need to chill out.

Yes. Please try to calm down and be nice and respectful to each other.

Im chilled out, sorry if I looked too intense or smth.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is good then, and no problem.

 

[Rosa]

Same ******* multiverse was in a ******* ANVIL A TINY TINY POINT OF CONTACT COMPARED TO EVERYTHING ELSE, the literal strongest punch we'd EVER EVER EVER seen from Superman at that point and despite somehow destroying the Forger's multiversal anvil only put that crater on Earth, the entire feat was a destruction based feat and it was terrible for that, the AP is good but the DC that's supposed to be there is trash.

This is simply not true.

Nice cherry picking only using 1 of my ******* examples bro, you also completely ignored the 2 examples I gave which would highly downgrade Naruto and Luffy despite them supposedly being above those levels. Ridiculous. ******* insanity.

Because those are about speed, not attack potency, which isn't analogous to the point being made and also I'm less familiar with the scaling of those verses.

Below Planetary, I'm reading absolute lord holy God, why am I even reading this shit anymore, downgrade them all to City Level, Supersonic JL minus Flash who is Hypersonic, insanity

You seem to be arguing explicitly in bad faith here. How many times in this conversation have I explicitly said 'I don't agree with Superman only being planetary' - in fact I said that exact thing IN the message you're responding to - yet me using a hypothetical of IF Superman was consistently that level we'd need to accept it and instead of engaging with the hypothetical you just scream about how absurd such a lowball is. Please just respond to the actual arguments instead of whatever it is you're doing here.

 

[GoldenVortex94]

Just downgrade all JL to city level super sonic speed already, if that's what you want

 

[Osemere]

Just downgrade all JL to city level super sonic speed already, if that's what you want

Ngl we should take another 2 years to downgrade the heralds to 5-A peak again and continue to ignore the already existing scaling chain and profiles because that’s what we should do as supporters definitely 100%

 

[Adr10K]

Ngl we should take another 2 years to downgrade the heralds to 5-A peak again and continue to ignore the already existing scaling chain and profiles because that’s what we should do as supporters definitely 100%

"Varies. 5-B normally, 5-A, possibly 4-B at peak."

 

[Osemere]

"Varies. 5-B normally, 5-A, possibly 4-B at peak."

There are no legitimate 4-B feats for the post-crisis heralds, they were debunked when the 2-C revisions were made. 5-B and 5-A are usable though.

 

[Adr10K]

There are no legitimate 4-B feats for the post-crisis heralds, they were debunked when the 2-C revisions were made. 5-B and 5-A are usable though.

Really? Can you send the link?

 

[Osemere]

Really? Can you send the link?

DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

How else to start the new year then unleashing hell itself? Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned. Massive thanks to @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @Confluctor and Highfather, Royals, and Era from Discord. I should note this only affects Post-Crisis and Rebirth...

vsbattles.com

“Regarding 4-B Heralds” section.

 

[Adr10K]

DC Comics - The Legendary DC Heralds Upgrade

How else to start the new year then unleashing hell itself? Any derailing will be deleted. You have been warned. Massive thanks to @Ehnkr2beboh, @LordTracer, @Amelia_Lonelyheart, @Confluctor and Highfather, Royals, and Era from Discord. I should note this only affects Post-Crisis and Rebirth...

vsbattles.com

“Regarding 4-B Heralds” section.

Some of those debunks to the debunks are a little curious.
But anyways, if something happens, DC would be stucked in Tier 5,

 

[Osemere]

Some of those debunks to the debunks are a little curious.
But anyways, if something happens, DC would be stucked in Tier 5,

Yeah, like I said earlier, a discussion here doesn’t really matter since it won’t do anything unless a CRT is made, and that won’t be likely to go through anyways and seems like a waste of time. Doing another tiering CRT as opposed to actually revising the profiles and the scaling chain as they exist now will still have the same problems even if everything is just scaled down to tier 5 (the post-flashpoint profiles are a mess specifically, I’m working on that one right now).

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I don't mind the 2-C tiers. It is the insane tiers for regular superheroes of 1-A or similar that I find ridiculous, but that is a much bigger problem for our Marvel pages than for our DC pages.

 

[Osemere]

For the record, I don't mind the 2-C tiers. It is the insane tiers for regular superheroes of 1-A or similar that I find ridiculous, but that is a much bigger problem for our Marvel pages than for our DC pages.

Thankfully the thread I made (the Cap’s shield one) is at least stimulating an effort to be made to do something about that seemingly

 

[Rosa]

For the record, I don't mind the 2-C tiers. It is the insane tiers for regular superheroes of 1-A or similar that I find ridiculous, but that is a much bigger problem for our Marvel pages than for our DC pages.

The amount of "Miles is 1-A" takes I've been seeing after the recent Death Battle man

 

[Adr10K]

The amount of "Miles is 1-A" takes I've been seeing after the recent Death Battle man

Cómics scaling chains are bullshit, especially when people like those exist.
And when not remotely the same level as that, Tier 1 Thor and Hull aren't too far from it.

 

[FroYoSans]

Ngl we should take another 2 years to downgrade the heralds to 5-A peak again and continue to ignore the already existing scaling chain and profiles because that’s what we should do as supporters definitely 100%

Oh Jesus christ 5-A heralds

 

[FroYoSans]

For the record, I don't mind the 2-C tiers. It is the insane tiers for regular superheroes of 1-A or similar that I find ridiculous, but that is a much bigger problem for our Marvel pages than for our DC pages.

Yeah the only notable one that comes to mind for DC is the Flash page but that's because of the Speed Force not them

 

[FroYoSans]

"Varies. 5-B normally, 5-A, possibly 4-B at peak."

Insanity, Large Planetary heralds

 

[FroYoSans]

This is simply not true.

Because those are about speed, not attack potency, which isn't analogous to the point being made and also I'm less familiar with the scaling of those verses.

You seem to be arguing explicitly in bad faith here. How many times in this conversation have I explicitly said 'I don't agree with Superman only being planetary' - in fact I said that exact thing IN the message you're responding to - yet me using a hypothetical of IF Superman was consistently that level we'd need to accept it and instead of engaging with the hypothetical you just scream about how absurd such a lowball is. Please just respond to the actual arguments instead of whatever it is you're doing here.

Absolutely genius comeback "not true" I'm dying

But they follow the same logic as the AP section

You're right you haven't made a position other than not agreeing to capped Planetary Superman, doesn't change my point the lowball IS ridiculous

 

[FroYoSans]

Yes. Please try to calm down and be nice and respectful to each other.

Apologies, my favorite characters make me heated when I perceive people as disrespecting them

 

[FroYoSans]

Cómics scaling chains are bullshit, especially when people like those exist.
And when not remotely the same level as that, Tier 1 Thor and Hull aren't too far from it.

Thor and Hulk are already Tier 1 on the site?

 

[FroYoSans]

The amount of "Miles is 1-A" takes I've been seeing after the recent Death Battle man

This I will agree is stupid, the amount of debunks I've seen on the Death Battle saying crazy stuff like "Miles and Peter are consistently on the level of characters like Hulk and Thor" is crazy to me

 

[Rosa]

Absolutely genius comeback "not true" I'm dying

If you want to provide evidence for your claim you're welcome, but I don't find the point entirely relevant. Like 3 messages back now I had already said even if I grant to you that the punch had minimal destructive effect then that's not the same thing as an anti-feat and therefore not comparable to what we're talking about.

But they follow the same logic as the AP section

I don't think so, speed feats and attack potency feats ought to be measured and assessed independently and differently, but again I've already addressed this notion you're clinging to. You can have anti-feats that don't warrant downgrades, you can have anti-feats that do, it depends on the narrative implications, the quality of the anti-feats comparative to the quality of the feats, and the quantity of the anti-feats comparative to the quantity of the feats. I'm sure you can nitpick any scaling for a any fictional character, but what we're doing isn't nitpicking we're establishing decade-long threads of consistency and inconsistency.

You're right you haven't made a position other than not agreeing to capped Planetary Superman, doesn't change my point the lowball IS ridiculous

If you acknowledge that my position isn't Superman being 5-B, why respond to my comment outraged at an imagined proposal for 5-B Superman?

Apologies, my favorite characters make me heated when I perceive people as disrespecting them

With all due respect, it's not that deep.

 

[FroYoSans]

If you want to provide evidence for your claim you're welcome, but I don't find the point entirely relevant. Like 3 messages back now I had already said even if I grant to you that the punch had minimal destructive effect then that's not the same thing as an anti-feat and therefore not comparable to what we're talking about.

I don't think so, speed feats and attack potency feats ought to be measured and assessed independently and differently, but again I've already addressed this notion you're clinging to. You can have anti-feats that don't warrant downgrades, you can have anti-feats that do, it depends on the narrative implications, the quality of the anti-feats comparative to the quality of the feats, and the quantity of the anti-feats comparative to the quantity of the feats. I'm sure you can nitpick any scaling for a any fictional character, but what we're doing isn't nitpicking we're establishing decade-long threads of consistency and inconsistency.

If you acknowledge that my position isn't Superman being 5-B, why respond to my comment outraged at an imagined proposal for 5-B Superman?

With all due respect, it's not that deep.

It would be though because the feat is destructive in Nature, hell he just wanted to prevent the Forger from creating and replacing their multiverse with the new one, not even destroy the one he made but did that as a byproduct, but couldn't destroy Earth as a byproduct?

Cool and none of the Anti feats warrant a downgrade to all the Justice League being Planet or Star Level Max

Heated in the moment we call it

It isn't but I frankly don't care, these characters are insanely important to me. And I won't stop reading them any time soon, I grew up with them and frankly won't take disrespect towards them, they don't deserve it because they stand for something so amazing, teach us lessons, etc and are just frankly so ****** cool, I love them so much

 

[Rosa]

It would be though because the feat is destructive in Nature, hell he just wanted to prevent the Forger from creating and replacing their multiverse with the new one, not even destroy the one he made but did that as a byproduct, but couldn't destroy Earth as a byproduct?

I'm just going to repeat my prior comment here since all of this has been addressed.

When a character throws an attack, for instance a ki blast from Dragon Ball, and it has the capacity to harm someone with high-end scaling whilst not causing any major environmental damage that isn't an anti-feat; on site we already accept the trope that characters can utilise their full force whilst also holding back on their own destructive capacity given its frequency in media. However, if a character is intending to cause environmental destruction and uses their attack and it fails to do so, in that case we can no longer grant they're 'holding back' their destructive capacity due to the explicit displayed intention, and therefore we do have to consider that as evidence that said character may not possess the force associated with such destruction.

This can be summarised as a distinction between a lack of a feat - the lack of destruction VS an anti-feat - the inability to cause destruction

Cool and none of the Anti feats warrant a downgrade to all the Justice League being Planet or Star Level Max

Why? What's the animating principle here? How many anti-feats could Superman amass before you concede this topic? How egregious of an anti-feat could Superman display before you see it?

It isn't but I frankly don't care, these characters are insanely important to me. And I won't stop reading them any time soon, I grew up with them and frankly won't take disrespect towards them, they don't deserve it because they stand for something so amazing, teach us lessons, etc and are just frankly so ****** cool, I love them so much

Accurately scaling a character isn't disrespecting them; influential and awe-inspiring characters can be weaker to shallow and even lame characters, a characters cultural or emotional significance doesn't warrant them being strong. I like Batman, Hal Jordan, Wally West, and J'onn more than I like Superman yet I'm not going to argue Superman is weaker than them (although current Wally should win that fight).

 

[Adr10K]

Apologies, my favorite characters make me heated when I perceive people as disrespecting them

Just to be clear.
I don't disrespect any character, hell, Superman is my favorite fictional character ever, and Flash is up there too. I just disagree with the way you're scaling them and mixing up things, that's all.

And yeah, Thor and Hulk are Tier 1 here.

 

[FroYoSans]

I'm just going to repeat my prior comment here since all of this has been addressed.

When a character throws an attack, for instance a ki blast from Dragon Ball, and it has the capacity to harm someone with high-end scaling whilst not causing any major environmental damage that isn't an anti-feat; on site we already accept the trope that characters can utilise their full force whilst also holding back on their own destructive capacity given its frequency in media. However, if a character is intending to cause environmental destruction and uses their attack and it fails to do so, in that case we can no longer grant they're 'holding back' their destructive capacity due to the explicit displayed intention, and therefore we do have to consider that as evidence that said character may not possess the force associated with such destruction.

This can be summarised as a distinction between a lack of a feat - the lack of destruction VS an anti-feat - the inability to cause destruction

Why? What's the animating principle here? How many anti-feats could Superman amass before you concede this topic? How egregious of an anti-feat could Superman display before you see it?

Accurately scaling a character isn't disrespecting them; influential and awe-inspiring characters can be weaker to shallow and even lame characters, a characters cultural or emotional significance doesn't warrant them being strong. I like Batman, Hal Jordan, Wally West, and J'onn more than I like Superman yet I'm not going to argue Superman is weaker than them (although current Wally should win that fight).

Fair enough

Nothing, unless they write Mainline Superman to literally only break buildings there's not a single anti feat or collection of which that would make any amount of sense for me to downgrade them to Planetary MAX because it's just not true, hell current Flash already disproves this, current Wally is written wayyyyy beyond that Planetary margin, but yall will advocate for the downgrade anyway because he's had past Anti feats in other runs.

Except its not accurate to me, it's disrespectful, and yes lame and boring shitty characters CAN be stronger than actual good ones but that isn't my point, my point is that what you're doing IS disrespectful, at least how I see it, it's not accurate, it's not truthful, it's an agenda of what you see as truth, just like mine. I'm a fanboy who wants to show these characters who I praise so much be as respected as I believe they should be, and in this instance that's cutting the bs about Planetary and Star Level Max Justice League

 

[FroYoSans]

Just to be clear.
I don't disrespect any character, hell, Superman is my favorite fictional character ever, and Flash is up there too. I just disagree with the way you're scaling them and mixing up thinks, that's all.

And yeah, Thor and Hulk are Tier 1 here.

Yeah and you're within your right to do that, of course, no problems, you may not be intending disrespect, hell you might think you're paying them the most respect by doing what you're doing, but i percieve it as disrespectful and dishonest

Haha I was right

 

[AcidSilver]

I believe that DC and Marvel characters are 1-A because I have an agenda to say that they win all of their popular matchups and stomp every other verse.

Is it true? Is it false?

Neither of those concepts matter as long as the agenda continues.

 

[AcidSilver]

Oh balls, the New History of the DC Universe book is going with the New 52 version of the origin of the Justice League where Cyborg was a founding member and they fought Darkseid. Waid tries to blunt it by saying that it wasn't "officially" founded until their fight against the Appelaxians which was their Silver Age origin.

 

[Rosa]

Nothing, unless they write Mainline Superman to literally only break buildings there's not a single anti feat or collection of which that would make any amount of sense for me to downgrade them to Planetary MAX because it's just not true, hell current Flash already disproves this, current Wally is written wayyyyy beyond that Planetary margin, but yall will advocate for the downgrade anyway because he's had past Anti feats in other runs.

Except its not accurate to me, it's disrespectful, and yes lame and boring shitty characters CAN be stronger than actual good ones but that isn't my point, my point is that what you're doing IS disrespectful, at least how I see it, it's not accurate, it's not truthful, it's an agenda of what you see as truth, just like mine. I'm a fanboy who wants to show these characters who I praise so much be as respected as I believe they should be, and in this instance that's cutting the bs about Planetary and Star Level Max Justice League

You say that what I'm doing is 'disrespectful' because I'm pushing 'an agenda' and ignoring the 'truth', yet in this conversation you've said that nothing could possibly change your mind ever and also admitted to being motivated by your own love for the character. The only one agenda-posting here is you.

I came into comics believing that Superman was 1-A in base form from the scalers I came across, it's only after I've read 400+ issues in these past few months that I've since changed my mind, and I come from a background of being a Batman fan since I was a child. I love these characters, I clearly love these comics to read so much, yet that doesn't mean I need Superman to be this God to be interesting - James Gunn actually said something similar to this lol. I don't know how you can in good faith say that I'm being "disrespectful and dishonest" for coming to this conclusion organically meanwhile you're clearly animated by a bias here.

Either way, this discussion seems to have run its course. You said nothing can convince you otherwise, you've thoroughly poisoned the well, best to just end it here.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Dude, the conversation is moving on. Stop.

 

[Stolp]

Dude, the conversation is moving on. Stop.

Lmao no. If someone is that cringe to the point they treat characters as if they have personhood just to negate a powerscale downgrade, they're gonna get called out.

 

[Antvasima]

FroYoSans, please stop spamming and being oversensitive about characters being downgraded, and Stolp, stop being rude.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Just wondering: Shouldn't Zod be 2-C especially when he's on New Krypton (amped by 2 Yellow Suns) or at peak anyways?