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Urgent Reaction Speed Conversation

I think that we should just stick with travel speed being prolonged running speed as currently. We do not seem to remotely have the staff volunteer worktime resources to make an enormously time-consuming revision in that regard for no true benefit. I do not approve at all of that being included as a vote.

Just gradually merging together combat speed and reflexes would enormously less time-consuming and much more logically warranted as I perceive it.

Also, I am uncertain if it is a good idea to create so many options. We might be unlikely to reach any coherent conclusion that way.

Thank you for helping out in any case. 🙏
 
I just don't think we have a good definition for travel speed right now, we just kinda subjectively assign it, and could end up doing so rather inconsistently.
 
Well, we can better clarify what we have currently of course, but I think that prolonged running speed seems perfectly fine, and major revisions in that regard do not seem remotely realistic. 🙏
 
Question: Assuming we do merge combat speed and reactions into one singular page, what do we do when characters depict a faster speed than that but can't maintain it for long? Do we just make it "short-burst"?
 
Question: Assuming we do merge combat speed and reactions into one singular page, what do we do when characters depict a faster speed than that but can't maintain it for long? Do we just make it "short-burst"?
What does that even mean...? As in Combat speed with just bad stamina? It's still their combat speed tho and becomes a stamina issue at that point

Can just be rated as "Speed rating" up to at most "Speed rating" or something similar if needed
 
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Bump, anyone have thoughts about me making a new thread with this OP?
Yep.

Big Speed Revisions​

We've found some, at times related, issues with a few of our speed categories through the discussion in this thread. Here I'll aim to summarise the keystone issues and proposed solutions.

With how many options there are, keep in mind that you can rank your preferences. I'll do my best to sift through everyone's rankings to get the most preferred option after we get enough votes.

Issue 1: Reaction and Combat Distinction​

The factors separating these aren't entirely clear. A few definitions have been proposed, which implies that some pages on the wiki right now may be separating them under different definitions.

These definitions differ by how much they focus on biomechanics, fictional trends, etc. I've made them in forms that wouldn't properly fit on the page so that they're easier for us to digest and discuss en masse; proper fully-worded definitions can be given once we narrow down to a few proper candidates.

In solving this, we both want people to mention how many current profiles these explained distinctions seem to match with, and which of these distinctions people think is ideal to enshrine moving forward.

Definition 1-i:​

Reaction speed is turning one's head or eyes, combat speed is more significant movements like dodging things or catching things.

Definition 1-ii:​

Reaction speed is dodging or eluding, while combat speed is fighting back.

Definition 1-iii:​

Combat speed is moving one's whole body around, while reaction speed is at most bending one's body out the way of an attack.

Definition 1-iv:​

Reaction speed is for reflexes, while combat speed is for them fighting.

Definition 1-v:​

Reaction speed is for few actions that can't be done in response to other actions at the same speed, combat speed is for many actions that can be done in response to other actions at the same speed.

Definition 1-vi:​

Reaction speed should be changed to reaction time, and should measure the time it takes before one starts moving in response to information. Combat speed would cover the velocity of movements themselves.

Definition 1-vii:​

Reaction speed is just for dodging, fighting back or engaging in defensive manoeuvres like blocking and parrying are combat speed.


Issue 1-a: Removing the Distinction​

A rather simple solution would be to remove the distinction between reaction and combat speed. If characters have some abilities/technology that let them react faster but not fight faster, we can already index that by mentioning it's through that ability/equipment which is restricted in that way.

This would probably come through defaulting to taking the higher speed, and believing that the distinction isn't justified, unless the justification on the profile gives a good reason to think otherwise.

Issue 2: Travel Speed Distinction​

How far does one have to travel before it becomes travel speed? And would properly enshrining this require large-scale revisions, due to many profiles just listing combat speed, with us assuming they can travel at that speed too?

Definition 2-i:​

Travel speed is any whole-body movement.

Definition 2-ii:​

Travel speed is any movement past a certain fixed distance.

Definition 2-iii:​

Travel speed is originally defined from a fixed distance, but this is scaled with a character's size, to make it so that small characters can reasonably get travel speed, and large characters don't automatically get it.

Definition 2-iv:​

Travel speed is originally defined from a fixed distance, but this is scaled to the speed rating in question, so the character would need to run for a certain amount of "subjective time" to reach it. On top of the cases caught by the previous definition, this makes it so that fast characters won't incidentally get travel speed during combat. Although this may cause issues for Infinite and above speed.

Definition 2-v:​

Travel speed is defined based on how far the character canonically travels during active combat; any distance above the furthest they've moved in a fight is travel speed. This covers all situations, including characters whose fights go across timelines, but makes the ratings mean different things for different characters. Although the previous two already do this to some extent.

Definition 2-vi:​

Travel speed is any speed sustained over a certain fixed duration.

Non-Issue​

Other speed ratings seem fine to maintain, as we appear to universally agree on them. Perception speed is how quickly your brain can receive information from your senses. Attack speed is the speed of any combat-relevant thing sourced from the character. Flight speed is travel speed but without touching the ground.

Our current status quo of combat speed being the default speed seems fine to keep, and we'll assume that's in place for the changes we implement.
 
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Bump, anyone have thoughts about me making a new thread with this OP?
"we both want people to mention how many current profiles these explained distinctions seem to match with"
Is it realistically achievable to have such a number?

Issue 1-A

That description IMO doesn't clearly state how we will deal with characters who currently have a distinction between combat and reaction speed. Will we just default to assuming that those get the higher speed value as their total speed? Will we default to assuming the distinction is justified?
If that's purposefully not clear in the option, as it's a part of debate, then the question should be included.
Maybe "How do we manage the transition" should be a point in general.


Also, I take it for that next thread we operate under the premise that speed ratings without a specifier are combat speed, yes? Else that would be an additional category.
I wonder if we should do a ranked voting system given the number of options...
 
"we both want people to mention how many current profiles these explained distinctions seem to match with"
Is it realistically achievable to have such a number?
An accurate one for the wiki as a whole? ofc not, but if people can at least give realistic guesses about the bubble they're familiar with, that could inform us somewhat.

Even if we can't get anything too precise, seeing that three options tend to split "70%/20%/10%", with the others getting "0%", would be useful to know.
Issue 1-A
That description IMO doesn't clearly state how we will deal with characters who currently have a distinction between combat and reaction speed. Will we just default to assuming that those get the higher speed value as their total speed? Will we default to assuming the distinction is justified?
If that's purposefully not clear in the option, as it's a part of debate, then the question should be included.
Maybe "How do we manage the transition" should be a point in general.
I'd assume we'd default to taking the higher speed, and that the distinction isn't justified, but I could add that in.

I think that, aside from deciding from whether to do it or not based on how much work it'll be (which we should try to judge by estimating how common the interpretation we intend to move to is), we can leave managing the transition to a technocratic point discussed among Ant and a few others while the thread's winding down.
Also, I take it for that next thread we operate under the premise that speed ratings without a specifier are combat speed, yes? Else that would be an additional category.
Yeah, I can spell that out too, if you wish.
I wonder if we should do a ranked voting system given the number of options...
imo that's always an option for votes in threads. Individuals can, largely, decide to distribute their votes however they want. But maybe I should highlight that approach, here.

EDIT: Clarified those points in that draft.
 
I think that we should just stick with travel speed being prolonged running speed as currently. We do not seem to remotely have the staff volunteer worktime resources to make an enormously time-consuming revision in that regard for no true benefit. I do not approve at all of that being included as a vote.

Just gradually merging together combat speed and reflexes would enormously less time-consuming and much more logically warranted as I perceive it.

Also, I am uncertain if it is a good idea to create so many options. We might be unlikely to reach any coherent conclusion that way.

Thank you for helping out in any case. 🙏
These are still my strong viewpoints here. 🙏
 
Are we still doing the new thread so this can be concluded?
 
Well, I stated what I think here above. 🙏
 
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