Urgent Reaction Speed Conversation

[Agnaa]

I don't like that definition of reaction speed. I think it's a more potent case of "why should their speed doing that be different?" Their body should not be able to tell whether their movements will be used for dodging or attacking, and tune to a vastly different speed because of that.

I prefer DT's definition (where combat speed is granted for reaction feats only if they involve the character's overall position changing), and I prefer my definition (where combat speed is granted for reaction feats only if they occur at short distances/timeframes, or if the character can interrupt those bursts of movement in accordance with new information) to both of those.

And thinking about it this hard is making me wonder whether a distinction is truly necessary.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I mostly attempted to define our standards in the manner that I think they have traditionally worked, and as such would not require enormous amounts of largely seemingly unnecessary work to revise.

However, yes, perhaps we should count all pure dodging/reaction speed feats as combat speed instead in order to simplify our standards and make them somewhat more logical.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm concerned that we may need changes regardless, as people may have been operating under distinctions more similar to mine or DT's.

Perhaps a thread could be made asking which of those is closest to the way people treat the ratings right now? So we could get an idea of whether there is actually a noticeable contingent not going by your definition.

If there isn't one, we could just clarify the definition on the page and keep operating as usual. But otherwise, we could look into what the ideal definition would be.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, for what it is worth, I have been the main wiki patrolling overviewer for around 10 years, and what I mentioned are the practices that I have mainly noticed at least.

 

[Testarossa002]

Got permission from @KingTempest

Why is something like blocking with a sword reaction speed? Can combat speed not easily apply with that?

I also think that blocking strikes with a sword (And by extension shields or bracelets or similar) should not be limited to reaction speed but rather combat speed, as it's a significantly more complex action than just say... shoving yourself to the side to dodge an attack. Limiting combat speed to full-body movements is also just plain-counterintuitive and goes against the very biomechanics of a human body. Complexity of the action matters more than how much of the body you move.

What's the conclusion on this?
Agnaa/Ant's proposal doesn't seem to include it under either combat speed or reaction speed. It needs clarification because feats like that are more common than you may realize
Here's my draft:

Combat Speed: This refers to the speed at which a character can engage in combat, encompassing both offensive actions (such as slashing, stabbing, punching, and kicking) and defensive maneuvers (like blocking and parrying). It's important to note that merely dodging an attack does not automatically qualify as combat speed; such actions are more accurately classified under reaction speed. However, if a character is actively attacking while simultaneously dodging, their movements can be considered under combat speed.

A character with a notable reaction speed feat who is able to land hits on an opponent—and also receive hits in return—would typically have combat speed roughly equivalent to their reaction speed capabilities.

This factors in the aforementioned issue and the new proposal by Agnaa
Regarding Travel speed
Looks like I was ahead of my time

Travel Speed Rewording

Hi Everyone I got permission from Ant to make this (I think) I was engaging in a convo offsite and someone brought my attention to the travel speed section I think the section could do with a bit of rewording Travel Speed The speed at which a character or object can move by running, or through...

vsbattles.com

I'm in full agreement with Agnaa's take on the issue

 

[KLOL506]

Agnaa/Ant's proposal doesn't seem to include it under either combat speed or reaction speed. It needs clarification because feats like that are more common than you may realize

Well they both kudos'd my take on the matter so you could ask them one more time for clarification. Looks good to me, personally.

 

[Agnaa]

What's the conclusion on this?
Agnaa/Ant's proposal doesn't seem to include it under either combat speed or reaction speed. It needs clarification because feats like that are more common than you may realize

I think mine implicitly does, while Ant's is a bit vague. As I explained before:

my definition (where combat speed is granted for reaction feats only if they occur at short distances/timeframes, or if the character can interrupt those bursts of movement in accordance with new information)

So, if the blocking is done at exceptionally short distances (such that the speed of the object moving to block is equal to or greater than the thing being blocked), it would be combat speed. Otherwise, it would be reaction speed. This happens regardless of whether it's done with a fist or a sword.

I think that sort of thing is gestured at from the earlier definitions I gave:

Reaction Speed is defined as a short burst of movement done in reaction to something (the most prototypical example being dodging a projectile).

Combat Speed is defined as a series of short movements that they can process and respond to (the most prototypical example being fighting someone, throwing punches and dodging them at comparable speeds).

And as I've commented earlier, I think Ant's standards on this issue are vague. My best guess would be that if it's done for blocking, it would only be reaction speed.

Although, all of this would be rendered irrelevant if we simply decide to remove reaction speed as a thing.

Here's my draft:

If we are to still have both reaction speed and combat speed, as this draft suggests, then I think this is a really bad proposal. It doesn't leave any clear room for reaction speed. If offensive and defensive manoeuvres are both combat speed, then what would reaction speed be?

(To clarify, I present that more as a rhetorical question. As if it's answered, that would represent a new proposal that would stand on its own merits.)

(Also, this post is not me granting you permission to make another post on this.)

Well they both kudos'd my take on the matter so you could ask them one more time for clarification. Looks good to me, personally.

I agree with the main thrust of it (that complexity matters more), but that still leaves me disagreeing on the details. I don't think the precision should matter. Yeah, blocking with a dot of unobtainium on your wrist requires more precision than flinging your body to the side, but I don't think that should make it a separate speed rating. I think being able to take actions in response to things at that speed is what should make it combat speed, since that lets you engage in combat with another character moving at those speeds.

Although now I say it that way, and reflect on this earlier part of this post:

So, if the blocking is done at exceptionally short distances (such that the speed of the object moving to block is equal to or greater than the thing being blocked), it would be combat speed. Otherwise, it would be reaction speed.

That only ends up partially being true. If a character moves 1 meter to dodge a bullet, in the time that bullet moves 10 cm, then yeah, they have combat speed for that bullet, but that doesn't actually establish that they can engage in back-and-forth with something of their own speed. Although we could just index this as 390 m/s combat speed, 3,900 m/s reaction speed. Unless they get a feat of engaging in combat with a character about as fast as their dodging.

And now that I put it that way, this is starting to feel similar to Ant's suggestion. It has a few more details, but also allows some attacks to fall under reaction speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Which parts of my suggestions here are vague and need to be further clarified, and in what manner?

 

[Agnaa]

Which parts of my suggestions here are vague and need to be further clarified, and in what manner?

Whether blocking a projectile with a sword should count as reaction speed or combat speed.

Thinking through it more, I don't think your suggestion is vague on this point. I think this is just pointing to the concern of "This bodily movement would obviously be usable for attacking, why does them using it for a defensive manoeuvre mean it doesn't scale to their general combat capabilities?" And I think that same concern applies (albeit less strikingly) to all dodging feats; characters can launch their body at other characters as an attack.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I believe this article is among the reasons how reaction time can be much higher for specific character(s) compared to standard combat speed. Although, there never have been cases making gaps such as having Massively Hypersonic combat speed but Massively FTL+ reactions and what not. Not to mention, Spider-Man or even various users of Precognition and/or Instinctive Action are typical poster characters of said distinctions. But one would argue that said abilities bought them plenty of time to basically react to an upcoming attack ahead of time rather than having a raw evasion speed that far outweighs physical attack speed.

The four outlines listed by Agnaa sounds like a good start, but I find a lot of consistencies hard and might lead to discussions getting lengthier. But I feel it should be discussed on a follow up thread. Especially if it involves characters with Infinite/Immeasurable speed.

 

[Agnaa]

What we call "reaction speed" is not analogous to what's commonly referred to as "reaction time". Our equivalent for that is "perception speed". So that article doesn't really help with that.

I'd also add that, I think those abilities you listed aren't good things to involve in speed ratings in that way. Instinctive Action is very commonly used for combat itself (i.e. Ultra Instinct). Precognition and the like usually makes characters aware before the event even occurs, making assigning a rating to it very strange, and that can also be used for combat itself if the character can move their body fast enough.

And as you said, in both cases, they seem meant to make the character able to move earlier, rather than making them move faster.

 

[FinePoint]

Thinking through it more, I don't think your suggestion is vague on this point. I think this is just pointing to the concern of "This bodily movement would obviously be usable for attacking, why does them using it for a defensive manoeuvre mean it doesn't scale to their general combat capabilities?" And I think that same concern applies (albeit less strikingly) to all dodging feats; characters can launch their body at other characters as an attack.

The same is logically true for travel speed as well. Whether it makes sense or not, we sort of have to bend to the fact that fiction very commonly does depict characters as having vastly different speeds depending entirely on the kind of action they're doing. Dodging or blocking attacks (without being able to counterattack) is a very common thing displayed even when it's otherwise stated that the other character is too fast for them to keep up with or hit.

In that scenario, I see the reasoning behind saying that the mere act of defending is a different speed rating than being able to also attack.

 

[Agnaa]

The same is logically true for travel speed as well. Whether it makes sense or not, we sort of have to bend to the fact that fiction very commonly does depict characters as having vastly different speeds depending entirely on the kind of action they're doing. Dodging or blocking attacks (without being able to counterattack) is a very common thing displayed even when it's otherwise stated that the other character is too fast for them to keep up with or hit.

In that scenario, I see the reasoning behind saying that the mere act of defending is a different speed rating than being able to also attack.

I just doubt that's the best line to draw for that.

While there are probably pieces of fiction where characters can dodge an occasional telegraphed/long-distance attack, without being able to retaliate in hand-to-hand combat, I don't think there are pieces of fiction where characters can do stuff like this without being able to land an attack back. So I think it's better to draw the line based on reacting to telegraphed/long-distance attacks, rather than close-distance attacks.

But if you do have at least, like, two examples of the latter, I'd be willing to change my mind.

 

[FinePoint]

But if you do have at least, like, two examples of the latter, I'd be willing to change my mind.

I see it more in like sword-fighting, where one hit would presumably be deadly, that someone defends or dodges a ton of attacks but is unable to counter until something changes.

I will see if I can find some specific examples.

 

[FinePoint]

But if you do have at least, like, two examples of the latter, I'd be willing to change my mind.

You sort of see it in the first half of this battle. Tanjiro's clearly outclassed in terms of speed, can't land any hits, but somehow can deflect every incoming attack. In fact, I believe there might be a lot of similar instances in Demon Slayer.

First thirty seconds of this fight too.

Here's an example from Undertale of two characters both being unable to hit each other entirely.

 

[Antvasima]

So, based on the above, should we simply merge reaction speed into combat speed, and write better worded official speed definitions afterwards?

 

[KingTempest]

So, based on the above, should we simply merge reaction speed into combat speed, and write better worded official speed definitions afterwards?

I'm not against that. For those who react to higher, just give them higher Reactions via the Reactions page instead of different speeds for it

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not against that. For those who react to higher, just give them higher Reactions via the Reactions page instead of different speeds for it

There's no Reactions page anymore, it got replaced by Perception timeframe remember?

 

[KLOL506]

So, based on the above, should we simply merge reaction speed into combat speed, and write better worded official speed definitions afterwards?

You think that's a good idea? Would require editing a lot of profiles that have separate combat speed and reactions. Would also need evaluating on short-burst speeds too.

 

[KingTempest]

There's no Reactions page anymore, it got replaced by Perception timeframe remember?

WHY

 

[KLOL506]

WHY

Official Perception Speed Separation

Currently our instruction pages are inconsistent on whether or not perception speed is a thing. Our Speed page doesn't include it under the 5 speeds it lists, but Reactions says that a perception timeframe, for characters who don't move, can be included on profiles, and it also includes a table...

vsbattles.com

 

[Agnaa]

There's no Reactions page anymore, it got replaced by Perception timeframe remember?

WHY

Official Perception Speed Separation

Currently our instruction pages are inconsistent on whether or not perception speed is a thing. Our Speed page doesn't include it under the 5 speeds it lists, but Reactions says that a perception timeframe, for characters who don't move, can be included on profiles, and it also includes a table...

vsbattles.com

I wouldn't describe that as there being "no reactions page anymore" or it being "replaced". It renamed it, changed the name of one header, and reworded one paragraph.

You sort of see it in the first half of this battle. Tanjiro's clearly outclassed in terms of speed, can't land any hits, but somehow can deflect every incoming attack. In fact, I believe there might be a lot of similar instances in Demon Slayer.

First thirty seconds of this fight too.

Here's an example from Undertale of two characters both being unable to hit each other entirely.

I don't think these examples are good.

If you can only show a part of a fight that shows this off, then that, at most, shows that it's occasionally briefly used for dramatic effect, while ultimately the characters are capable of doing both offensive and defensive actions at the same speed.

Going into the specific examples, the first battle involves Tanjiro deflecting a lot of long-range attacks, which I called out as being plausible in my previous post:

While there are probably pieces of fiction where characters can dodge an occasional telegraphed/long-distance attack, without being able to retaliate in hand-to-hand combat, I don't think there are pieces of fiction where characters can do stuff like this without being able to land an attack back. So I think it's better to draw the line based on reacting to telegraphed/long-distance attacks, rather than close-distance attacks.

If an attack has to travel 10 meters while you only have to travel 50 centimeters to block it, you can block it despite being 20x slower than it, but that would leave you unable to land hits if you tried to retaliate. So even if there was a full fight which showed off something like this, I would not accept it as evidence of a character having faster defensive moves than offensive moves.

The second battle involves the ordinary-clothed-dude sometimes dodging, and sometimes getting hit. Most often dodging the ones that were telegraphed/involved charges from long distances, and getting hit by ones that started in close ranges (although there were some exceptions to both of these). He then engaged in CQC, where most of his attacks were dodged, but one landed. While there was some of the earlier stuff about needing to travel less, I mostly just think this doesn't qualify as him consistently effortlessly dodging but failing to land attacks; rather, he seems modestly slower, and so is only able to dodge inconsistently, and land attacks even less consistently.

I stopped watching the fight after ~70 seconds since it looked like they both used powerups or smth to change their relative speeds, making it a less useful example past that point.

The third battle is an example from a video game where, due to the player being incredibly skilled, they managed to dodge all of the enemy's attacks, while their attacks were scripted to fail. Come on, that's clearly not the intended canonical way for the fight to play out (and to the limited extent where it is, it's meant to be because the player-character has had so much time loop experience that they know the enemy's attacks and can prepare in advance; it's more like precog than speed).

And so, my view on this hardens.

So, based on the above, should we simply merge reaction speed into combat speed, and write better worded official speed definitions afterwards?

I think that may be a good thing to do Eventually

 

[FinePoint]

I don't think these examples are good.

Well, for the record, I also think it makes a lot more sense to merge the two.
As previously stated, I think our entire practice regarding "Reaction Speed" has probably always been silly.

I'm simply playing devil's advocate because it's already listed on so many profiles, so evidently lots of people thought there was a difference, and so changing it now would create a lot of work. Then again, my previous point of Combat Speed being so vague that most profiles listing it need attention regardless still stands.

So, overall, I think that combining the two is a very logical idea, not considering the actual work required to do that.

 

[Dalesean027]

Where are we at here now?

 

[Agnaa]

I believe we're largely trying to clarify the promising options to bring towards a future thread. That will determine whether the speed ratings should be changed or clarified. And if so, how.

With the discussion as it is now, we might be able to start that followup, actually.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

Bump

Honestly, it seems like the "conversation" here has pretty much concluded.

We should probably make a new thread where we list an actual proposal and get staff opinion on that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that our best option here seems to be to merge together reaction speed and combat speed, but otherwise simply clarify our different types of speed better.

 

[FinePoint]

Well, I think that our best option here seems to be to merge together reaction speed and combat speed, but otherwise simply clarify our different types of speed better.

Maybe, but it might be better to make a new thread where the actual proposal is in the OP and the primary focus, as opposed to making any new people who want to evaluate have to read three pages of discussion- since this thread was explicitly made as a discussion rather than a specific proposal.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is somebody here willing to write a draft for a first post for our new staff thread, and then initially post it here for evaluations, please?

 

[Agnaa]

I'd be willing to do so Eventually, but I'll be pretty busy for the next few days.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. We are not in a great hurry.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@Antvasima @Agnaa

Have there been any updates to this?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that our best option here seems to be to merge together reaction speed and combat speed, but otherwise simply clarify our different types of speed better.

Maybe, but it might be better to make a new thread where the actual proposal is in the OP and the primary focus, as opposed to making any new people who want to evaluate have to read three pages of discussion- since this thread was explicitly made as a discussion rather than a specific proposal.

Okay. Is somebody here willing to write a draft for a first post for our new staff thread, and then initially post it here for evaluations, please?

I'd be willing to do so Eventually, but I'll be pretty busy for the next few days.

@Antvasima @Agnaa

Have there been any updates to this?

@Agnaa

Are you able to help out with this now?

 

[Agnaa]

Yep.

Big Speed Revisions​

We've found some, at times related, issues with a few of our speed categories through the discussion in this thread. Here I'll aim to summarise the keystone issues and proposed solutions.

With how many options there are, keep in mind that you can rank your preferences. I'll do my best to sift through everyone's rankings to get the most preferred option after we get enough votes.

Issue 1: Reaction and Combat Distinction​

The factors separating these aren't entirely clear. A few definitions have been proposed, which implies that some pages on the wiki right now may be separating them under different definitions.

These definitions differ by how much they focus on biomechanics, fictional trends, etc. I've made them in forms that wouldn't properly fit on the page so that they're easier for us to digest and discuss en masse; proper fully-worded definitions can be given once we narrow down to a few proper candidates.

In solving this, we both want people to mention how many current profiles these explained distinctions seem to match with, and which of these distinctions people think is ideal to enshrine moving forward.

Definition 1-i:​

Reaction speed is turning one's head or eyes, combat speed is more significant movements like dodging things or catching things.

Definition 1-ii:​

Reaction speed is dodging or eluding, while combat speed is fighting back.

Definition 1-iii:​

Combat speed is moving one's whole body around, while reaction speed is at most bending one's body out the way of an attack.

Definition 1-iv:​

Reaction speed is for reflexes, while combat speed is for them fighting.

Definition 1-v:​

Reaction speed is for few actions that can't be done in response to other actions at the same speed, combat speed is for many actions that can be done in response to other actions at the same speed.

Definition 1-vi:​

Reaction speed should be changed to reaction time, and should measure the time it takes before one starts moving in response to information. Combat speed would cover the velocity of movements themselves.

Definition 1-vii:​

Reaction speed is just for dodging, fighting back or engaging in defensive manoeuvres like blocking and parrying are combat speed.

Issue 1-a: Removing the Distinction​

A rather simple solution would be to remove the distinction between reaction and combat speed. If characters have some abilities/technology that let them react faster but not fight faster, we can already index that by mentioning it's through that ability/equipment which is restricted in that way.

This would probably come through defaulting to taking the higher speed, and believing that the distinction isn't justified, unless the justification on the profile gives a good reason to think otherwise.

Issue 2: Travel Speed Distinction​

How far does one have to travel before it becomes travel speed? And would properly enshrining this require large-scale revisions, due to many profiles just listing combat speed, with us assuming they can travel at that speed too?

Definition 2-i:​

Travel speed is any whole-body movement.

Definition 2-ii:​

Travel speed is any movement past a certain fixed distance.

Definition 2-iii:​

Travel speed is originally defined from a fixed distance, but this is scaled with a character's size, to make it so that small characters can reasonably get travel speed, and large characters don't automatically get it.

Definition 2-iv:​

Travel speed is originally defined from a fixed distance, but this is scaled to the speed rating in question, so the character would need to run for a certain amount of "subjective time" to reach it. On top of the cases caught by the previous definition, this makes it so that fast characters won't incidentally get travel speed during combat. Although this may cause issues for Infinite and above speed.

Definition 2-v:​

Travel speed is defined based on how far the character canonically travels during active combat; any distance above the furthest they've moved in a fight is travel speed. This covers all situations, including characters whose fights go across timelines, but makes the ratings mean different things for different characters. Although the previous two already do this to some extent.

Definition 2-vi:​

Travel speed is any speed sustained over a certain fixed duration.

Non-Issue​

Other speed ratings seem fine to maintain, as we appear to universally agree on them. Perception speed is how quickly your brain can receive information from your senses. Attack speed is the speed of any combat-relevant thing sourced from the character. Flight speed is travel speed but without touching the ground.

Our current status quo of combat speed being the default speed seems fine to keep, and we'll assume that's in place for the changes we implement.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Isn't Travel Speed just being able to maintain a set speed for a long time?

That would differ from combat speed, as they aren't maintained for long and are made for quick/accelerative/explosive movements from the start and ends quite quickly... Switching from different ranges of speeds as opposed to using traveling speed (kinda like one does when giving a car their top speed)

 

[Agnaa]

I can add a time-based definition, sure. But no-one brought that up yet.

I think that gets a bit odd with characters who have infinite or above speed.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I can add a time-based definition, sure. But no-one brought that up yet.

I think that gets a bit odd with characters who can fight for days, tho.

Fighting is the utilization of acceleration tho, idk see how it would apply for characters that can fight for days

 

[Agnaa]

I got it after you edited your post, and I edited my post in retaliation.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I got it after you edited your post, and I edited my post in retaliation.

Sometimes (Lowkey starting to be most times) I forget I'm editing my post and assuming i'm about to post a new message