General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Ozcantabak]

I'm sure that's even worse

Nah that earth was said to be the core of the multiverse and it was basically amping TDK, not saying its a multiversal feat or anything but i also wouldn't say its just a planetary feat.

 

[Ozcantabak]

They say 'destroy', but even assuming what they meant is just surface wipe the planet then you're still left with the question of why they needed basically every heavy hitter all going at max power to do this (why couldn't Superman do it by himself?), and you're also left wondering how all these heavy hitters can throw all of their might at a planet and it barely affect its surface.

Supes says destroy to hype up the villians. Again their goal wasn't to destroy it so they probably would have taken that into account.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

It's an inconsistency as several of the people there have on screen feats of destroying planets, so you can either handwave it as "Earth is the Core of the Multiverse" or ignore it.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Like, Superboy Prime on panel destroyed Earth 15, Sinestro has nuked planets onscreen, lanterns have blown up planets, etc. It's such a blatent example of either inconsistency or narrative handwaving, it's unusable as an antifeat

 

[Adr10K]

Like, Superboy Prime on panel destroyed Earth 15, Sinestro has nuked planets onscreen, lanterns have blown up planets, etc. It's such a blatent example of either inconsistency or narrative handwaving, it's unusable as an antifeat

That's literally the point.
You can defend much better the idea of them being Tier 5 (MAYBE even Tier 4 imo) based on actual feats, since there's a lot of anti feats of them being unable to pull up planetary level feats.

But looking at current comics (and with current I mean the last 35+ years) and pretending all of them are Tier 3, 2 or even Tier 1, is just wrong and ridiculous to think about.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

That's literally the point.
You can defend much better the idea of them being Tier 5 (MAYBE even Tier 4 imo) based on actual feats, since there's a lot of anti feats of them being unable to pull up planetary level feats.

But looking at current comics (and with current I mean the last 35+ years) and pretending all of them are Tier 3, 2 or even Tier 1, is just wrong and ridiculous to think about.

....The point being the antifeat you're using is so blatently contradicted it can't actually be used?

Like again, you're using this one as an Anti-feat but every single person on there destroyed a planet on panel, so the anti-feat is unusable.

Superman destroyed a planet by jumping off it and was stated to have Solar System level powers casually, SBP destroyed planets casually on panel, and Sinestro literally casually nuked planets as a joke.

Hell, in the same comic, the weakened Superman fights Last Sun, who was a living star with the powers of a million suns, SBP fought the Darkest Knight and beat him, and the lanterns literally pierced through a dimensional Barrier

I'm not understanding why this is an antifeat when it's either narrative shennanigans because Earth is currently a multiversal focus or contradicted in the same run so hard, it's unusable.

 

[GoldenVortex94]

That's literally the point.
You can defend much better the idea of them being Tier 5 (MAYBE even Tier 4 imo) based on actual feats, since there's a lot of anti feats of them being unable to pull up planetary level feats.

But looking at current comics (and with current I mean the last 35+ years) and pretending all of them are Tier 3, 2 or even Tier 1, is just wrong and ridiculous to think about

In the current comics level is still maintained, in the current volume of Green Lantern, Sinestro almost destroyed the earth if it weren't for Hal Jordan, and he was with a weakened ring

 

[GoldenVortex94]

Marvel stories suck, DC is cool, therefore only DC gets downgrades because no one wants to read Marvel. You hate to see it

Then they need to improve how they analyze verses on this page. Because it's unfair to analyze one verse with more scrutiny than another, overlooking the fact that they suffer from the same type of problems. "Just because no one wants to read marvel comics" that's nosense

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Imo Marvel has a better lore/setting while DC generally has better characters

 

[Adr10K]

In the current comics level is still maintained, in the current volume of Green Lantern, Sinestro almost destroyed the earth if it weren't for Hal Jordan, and he was with a weakened ring.

Yeah you're just proving our point, buddy.

 

[Osemere]

Kind of an irrelevant discussion unless someone makes a CRT

Although it would be really funny if this happens because of Marvel vs DC matchups becoming even more of a shitshow so someone should definitely do it

 

[Adr10K]

Then they need to improve how they analyze verses on this page. Because it's unfair to analyze one verse with more scrutiny than another, overlooking the fact that they suffer from the same type of problems. "Just because no one wants to read marvel comics" that's nosense

Of course it should be, Marvel and DC suffer from exactly the same nonsense reasonings, but we're just "complaining" (that isn't the word) about DC because WE know more than we know about Marvel.

 

[Antvasima]

Dude, that's not what we're saying.

All of those feats people love to bring out are just "he fought against this character, who in a older than the person himself issue fought against this other older than the person himself character." Is always that, scaling chains after scaling chains, ignoring the consistency in the run itself.

And even then, the character are Way more consistent written wifhvfheif power peaking at "I can't move this planet" or being unable to destroy it by themselves. Like, There are so many occasions in a single run of them having ofoblems with Tier 5 stuff, than the amount of "Superman is Multiversal" in his entire continuity.

Strongly agreed. We need minimum, average, and maximum statistics for both DC and Marvel Comics characters, especially for Marvel, as their power levels differ to ridiculous extremes.

 

[Antvasima]

Marvel stories suck, DC is cool, therefore only DC gets downgrades because no one wants to read Marvel. You hate to see it

Well, Marvel Comics is mostly a thoroughly amoral satanically evil mess of ridiculously extreme ethical double-standards, thrill-killing ultraviolence, and cosmic horror level casual sadistic cruelty, whereas DC is far from irredeemable in that regard, but DC has only recently managed to become more well-written again after Dan Didio systematically slaughtered it, seemingly largely due to efforts from Mark Waid.

 

[Antvasima]

Imo Marvel has a better lore/setting while DC generally has better characters

Well, more coherent lore, but the setting itself is completely nightmarishly dystopian. I only find very few Marvel protagonists morally sympathetic though, and even that depends upon which writer is involved. DC Comics generally has far more sympathetic protagonist characters, but used to still be far too dystopian due to the Crises constantly annihilating most of reality over and over. Not to Marvel's degree though.

 

[Rosa]

I know this would have to be a CRT for change but I'm interested in gauging people's thoughts as of rn and maybe I'll build the interest to formulate this into a CRT. Do ya'll think we should add a new section to dc comic characters for post-death metal scaling? Currently the characters and their feats are separated via Golden Age, Silver Age, Post-Crisis, and Post-Flashpoint (although a significant amount of characters - like Hal Jordan - don't follow this standard which is a separate conversation), should there now be an additional Post-Death Metal (or 'Infinite Frontier', 'New Dawn', 'All-In', there's a few names used to describe this new era of DC)?

The events of Death Metal have the entire DC multiverse get remade and the following Dark Crisis run introduces a new way of seeing the cosmology (Divine Continuum), alongside the characters being now linked to their prior iterations (there's an argument to be had on whether or not current DC characters are now soft-composites which obviously affects their stats and abilities) whilst many big characters have also undergone several huge amps and changes (some of which has already been added to some profiles - like Superman - which I think comes off as misleading) that merits profiles revisions already. Given each retcon, no matter how minor, warranted new profiles I think Death Metal - the inverse retcon of the retcons - should also.

There's also the Absolute Universe which is blowing up rn, we should probably get started on making profiles for those. CSaP already has a few calcs done iirc, I saw one for Absolute Wonder Woman beating a kaiju monster that got to town level.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the new post-DeatbhMetal composite versions of the characters seem reasonable to create pages for, yes, although it may be too early for the "absolute" versions.

 

[Osemere]

I know this would have to be a CRT for change but I'm interested in gauging people's thoughts as of rn and maybe I'll build the interest to formulate this into a CRT. Do ya'll think we should add a new section to dc comic characters for post-death metal scaling? Currently the characters and their feats are separated via Golden Age, Silver Age, Post-Crisis, and Post-Flashpoint (although a significant amount of characters - like Hal Jordan - don't follow this standard which is a separate conversation), should there now be an additional Post-Death Metal (or 'Infinite Frontier', 'New Dawn', 'All-In', there's a few names used to describe this new era of DC)?

The events of Death Metal have the entire DC multiverse get remade and the following Dark Crisis run introduces a new way of seeing the cosmology (Divine Continuum), alongside the characters being now linked to their prior iterations (there's an argument to be had on whether or not current DC characters are now soft-composites which obviously affects their stats and abilities) whilst many big characters have also undergone several huge amps and changes (some of which has already been added to some profiles - like Superman - which I think comes off as misleading) that merits profiles revisions already. Given each retcon, no matter how minor, warranted new profiles I think Death Metal - the inverse retcon of the retcons - should also.

There's also the Absolute Universe which is blowing up rn, we should probably get started on making profiles for those. CSaP already has a few calcs done iirc, I saw one for Absolute Wonder Woman beating a kaiju monster that got to town level.

Waid’s action comics, Williamson’s Superman #28, and the New History of the DCU #2 all have Superman’s pre-crisis history restored not only as Superboy but also with him meeting the “preboot” original Legion. DC All-In also had Darkseid see his entire story and saw his final defeat by Superboy and Supergirl with the Legion in the pre-crisis Great Darkness saga, so I’m not opposed to it at all.

It should be noted that Waid has said (in multiple places) that he has read every Superman comic ever published before, so the traditional excuse of “writers don’t really know the history, so we can’t push stories together” doesn’t follow for him, and he was the character changed by the crisis the most.

 

[Osemere]

Waid’s action comics, Williamson’s Superman #28, and the New History of the DCU #2 all have Superman’s pre-crisis history restored not only as Superboy but also with him meeting the “preboot” original Legion. DC All-In also had Darkseid see his entire story and saw his final defeat by Superboy and Supergirl with the Legion in the pre-crisis Great Darkness saga, so I’m not opposed to it at all.

It should be noted that Waid has said (in multiple places) that he has read every Superman comic ever published before, so the traditional excuse of “writers don’t really know the history, so we can’t push stories together” doesn’t follow for him, and he was the character changed by the crisis the most.

Also interestingly this means that the first fight Superman ever had with Darkseid is also the last fight Darkseid will ever have, which means that DC All-In retconned the most powerful Darkseid to ever exist being beaten by Superman as a teenager…

 

[Adr10K]

Waid’s action comics, Williamson’s Superman #28, and the New History of the DCU #2 all have Superman’s pre-crisis history restored not only as Superboy but also with him meeting the “preboot” original Legion. DC All-In also had Darkseid see his entire story and saw his final defeat by Superboy and Supergirl with the Legion in the pre-crisis Great Darkness saga, so I’m not opposed to it at all.

It should be noted that Waid has said (in multiple places) that he has read every Superman comic ever published before, so the traditional excuse of “writers don’t really know the history, so we can’t push stories together” doesn’t follow for him, and he was the character changed by the crisis the most.

I love that, especially since it goes against posible counter arguments.

But de should wait if Clark has comparable feats to that era, since half the time it gets retconned power scaling wise, as already demonstrated by his fight against Xarnsked.

It'd be cool as hell if there was a reference to his "Moving every planet in the Galaxy' feat.

 

[Spinoirr]

I think that the new post-Deatb Metal composite versions of the characters seem reasonable to create pages for, yes, although it may be too early for the "absolute" versions.

Like we already have one for superman, he just missing his abilities from his past selfs

 

[Osemere]

DC supporters (all 9 of them) when they hyperfixate on cosmology revision threads every 3 months that take 15 pages to change two things (they’ve ignored hax and the scaling chain for 6 years)

 

[Muteki616]

Then they need to improve how they analyze verses on this page. Because it's unfair to analyze one verse with more scrutiny than another, overlooking the fact that they suffer from the same type of problems. "Just because no one wants to read marvel comics" that's nosense

Tbh from my time in reading Marvel.
Their higher tiering is fairly consistent.

 

[FroYoSans]

Eh, no? As easy as grabbing a comic, a run, a volume or even an entire year of issues, and you'll see my point.

Brother I actively read comics, don't talk to me like I don't, I've read over 300 issues at this point, Max Output being star level is some of the most ridiculous downplaying garbage I've ever read

 

[FroYoSans]

DC supporters (all 9 of them) when they hyperfixate on cosmology revision threads every 3 months that take 15 pages to change two things (they’ve ignored hax and the scaling chain for 6 years)

Yeah a cosmology needs to actually just be stuck with so things can be changed and updated

 

[FroYoSans]

During Death Metal there's actually a scene were they need to destroy Earth, and Swamp Thing and Abby (rot) were trying to pull the planet apart as much as possible to destabilise it, several lanterns on various emotional spectrums (including Sinestro) shot at the planet with all their power, Black Adam channelled all his power at the planet, and an anti-life equation absorbed Superman, Bizarro, and Metallo all rammed into the planet at top speed.

This was the aftermath

That's literally just a trash Anti feat we've seen PLENTY of characters easily destroy Planet's, Green Lanterns, Superman, Doomsday, etc

 

[FroYoSans]

Dude, that's not what we're saying.

All of those feats people love to bring out are just "he fought against this character, who in a older than the person himself issue fought against this other older than the person himself character." Is always that, scaling chains after scaling chains, ignoring the consistency in the run itself.

And even then, the characters are more consistently written with their power levels peaking at "I can't move this planet" or being unable to destroy it by themselves. Like, There are so many occasions in a single run of them having ofoblems with Tier 5 stuff, than the amount of "Superman is Multiversal" in his entire continuity.

First off this is stupid because those same runs will have the characters do something ridiculous. I was reading forever evil and Firestorm imploding kept jumping from "the next big bang" to "eradicating the entire west coast" LIKE BUD THIS IS HOW COMICS WORK alright its official, Multi Continental Superman, Relativistic Flash, Country Level Wonder Woman, Island Level Aquaman and Hypersonic Green Lantern are all in effect now. Like no this is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. Especially when current Superman is supposed to be stronger than all his other versions, including Pre Crisis, hell he's been stronger than Pre Crisis since Post Crisis yall have an agenda. Hell how can you even say they max at star level but give literally any character MFTL+ or Immeasurable Speed on the JL? That would contradict it entirely

 

[FroYoSans]

They say 'destroy', but even assuming what they meant is just surface wipe the planet then you're still left with the question of why they needed basically every heavy hitter all going at max power to do this (why couldn't Superman do it by himself?), and you're also left wondering how all these heavy hitters can throw all of their might at a planet and it barely affect its surface.

It's the same question of how Superman after being Mega Sun dipped and literally falcon punching the World Forger only managed to make a big Continent sized mark on the world...instead of literally eviscerating it, but ig according to you all those people are country level and rhat punch was Multi Continental max

 

[Adr10K]

First off this is stupid because those same runs will have the characters do something ridiculous. I was reading forever evil and Firestorm imploding kept jumping from "the next big bang" to "eradicating the entire west coast" LIKE BUD THIS IS HOW COMICS WORK alright its official, Multi Continental Superman, Relativistic Flash, Country Level Wonder Woman, Island Level Aquaman and Hypersonic Green Lantern are all in effect now. Like no this is some of the dumbest shit I've ever read. Especially when current Superman is supposed to be stronger than all his other versions, including Pre Crisis, hell he's been stronger than Pre Crisis since Post Crisis yall have an agenda. Hell how can you even say they max at star level but give literally any character MFTL+ or Immeasurable Speed on the JL? That would contradict it entirely

Proving our points, nice

That's exactly the point, even if they are heavily contradictory, the only consistent thing is that they ARE NOT written to be Tier 3 or 2.

And you're right, they shouldn't have MFTL+ nor imme speed either.

 

[Hasty12345]

There are probably 4 characters in fiction to be "consistently written" to be that strong, and I'd wager all 4 of them have 1 or 2 appearances.

 

[Adr10K]

There are probably 4 characters in fiction to be "consistently written" to be that strong, and I'd wager all 4 of them have 1 or 2 appearances.

Again, that's not the point.
One thing is that the character has different visuals than AP, that's something that always happens in every single media (Tier 4 causing a Tier 8 destructon), I can understand that, everyone does

But just going against the general view of not just one writer, but an entire continuity of them and beyond, with the Tier 3 and 2 feats themselves being even lesser common than the Tier 4 ones, and those feats aren't feats at all, just scaling chains after scaling chains between entire continuities, writers, opinions, contexts, etc.

Yk, consistency isn't just about "He did that more than twice", but also how the feat itself occurs, if the character is supposed to be that strong, if it doesn't go against the common sense of the verse, etc.

 

[Hasty12345]

Again, that's not the point.
One thing is that the character has different visuals than AP, that's something that always happens in every single media (Tier 4 causing a Tier 8 destructon), I can understand that, everyone does

But just going against the general view of not just one writer, but an entire continuity of them and beyond, with the Tier 3 and 2 feats themselves being even lesser common than the Tier 4 ones, and those feats aren't feats at all, just scaling chains after scaling chains between entire continuities, writers, opinions, contexts, etc.

Yk, consistency isn't just about "He did that more than twice", but also how the feat itself occurs, if the character is supposed to be that strong, if it doesn't go against the common sense of the verse, etc.

Authors aren't power scalers. The same authors you're arguing are consistent are also doing things like making Superman fight beings who possess higher dimensional energies, are living universes, fight beings who can retcon reality with a punch. You can't possibly appeal to authors for consistency when we're in this mess due to the very fact they're inconsistent.

This is why death of the author exists.

 

[Muteki616]

Authors aren't power scalers. The same authors you're arguing are consistent are also doing things like making Superman fight beings who possess higher dimensional energies, are living universes, fight beings who can retcon reality with a punch. You can't possibly appeal to authors for consistency when we're in this mess due to the very fact they're inconsistent.

This is why death of the author exists.

I agree with this.
Like I said earlier
when the time calls for it
DC heroes do showcase their tier 3 to 2 feats.
So saying anything less as a cap for them is kinda disingenuous. Most DC stories don’t need them to be tier 2+ so most DC stories aren’t gonna show that unless they have to. (same for marvel)

 

[Muteki616]

Also, I hate using Whataboutisms,
but if you use this argument on DC/Marvel you should also apply this argument for every other verse. (looking at Dragonball who hasn’t had a 4D feat since BoG.)

 

[Adr10K]

Authors aren't power scalers. The same authors you're arguing are consistent are also doing things like making Superman fight beings who possess higher dimensional energies, are living universes, fight beings who can retcon reality with a punch. You can't possibly appeal to authors for consistency when we're in this mess due to the very fact they're inconsistent.

This is why death of the author exists.

Once again, not the point
Clark, and no other hero, is written to be a universe buster practically never, they always make him cap at Tier 5 or 4 when actually going all out, it's not about "They have those feats", but how consistent they're. You're literally ignoring the previous 2 pages of discussion we've had.

I agree with this.
Like I said earlier
when the time calls for it
DC heroes do showcase their tier 3 to 2 feats.
So saying anything less as a cap for them is kinda disingenuous. Most DC stories don’t need them to be tier 2+ so most DC stories aren’t gonna show that unless they have to. (same for marvel)

What? No, when the time calls, they are portrayed with Tier 5/4 feats, that's literally 99% of the file, héroes going at their maximum level of power is always about something planetary or stellar destruction.
For every Tier 2 feat, there's 10 anti feats of them struggling with Tier 5/4 shit.

And both of you are the perfect example of my previous comment, all of those "Tier 2 feats" are scaling chains, half the time, the characters themselves are portrayed go be that strong, and that's just makes it even more difficult to call it consistent.

And I DOUBT, not saying it's impossibles, that DB and other verses get judged by same logic, since other verses / that one only have a few (or one) author that keep(s) everything as consistent as possible, while Marvel and DC have 500 authors per year, all of them, and the most important part, they aren't consistent with not just their "older" stories, but they can't keep it even with their current ones.

 

[FroYoSans]

Proving our points, nice

That's exactly the point, even if they are heavily contradictory, the only consistent thing is that they ARE NOT written to be Tier 3 or 2.

And you're right, they shouldn't have MFTL+ nor imme speed either.

I can't with this, genuine stupidity. We will absolutely never agree on this. Hypersonic Flash downgrade when according to bro?

 

[FroYoSans]

Authors aren't power scalers. The same authors you're arguing are consistent are also doing things like making Superman fight beings who possess higher dimensional energies, are living universes, fight beings who can retcon reality with a punch. You can't possibly appeal to authors for consistency when we're in this mess due to the very fact they're inconsistent.

This is why death of the author exists.

Or Flash who in his own issues ran past faster than the INFINITY OF THE SOURCE WALL...was also caught by Failsafe in Absolute power like authors just don't care sometimes. But ofc in his own run his speed is still being recognized as those Infinite and Beyond when they literally put him in stopped time and they just went "yeah he's to fast for that now"

 

[FroYoSans]

Also, I hate using Whataboutisms,
but if you use this argument on DC/Marvel you should also apply this argument for every other verse. (looking at Dragonball who hasn’t had a 4D feat since BoG.)

Insert current DragonBall Super with Goku sending shockwaves across a planet despite supposedly shaking the world of Void and being able to destroy the macrocosm

 

[FroYoSans]

Once again, not the point
Clark, and no other hero, is written to be a universe buster practically never, they always make him cap at Tier 5 or 4 when actually going all out, it's not about "They have those feats", but how consistent they're. You're literally ignoring the previous 2 pages of discussion we've had.

What? No, when the time calls, they are portrayed with Tier 5/4 feats, that's literally 99% of the file, héroes going at their maximum level of power is always about something planetary or stellar destruction.
For every Tier 2 feat, there's 10 anti feats of them struggling with Tier 5/4 shit.

And both of you are the perfect example of my previous comment, all of those "Tier 2 feats" are scaling chains, half the time, the characters themselves are portrayed go be that strong, and that's just makes it even more difficult to call it consistent.

And I DOUBT, not saying it's impossibles, that DB and other verses get judged by same logic, since other verses / that one only have a few (or one) author that keep(s) everything as consistent as possible, while Marvel and DC have 500 authors per year, all of them, and the most important part, they aren't consistent with not just their "older" stories, but they can't keep it even with their current ones.

As consistent as possible? Naruto has been Faster than sound since the end of Pt1 but couldn't make it 30 meters in 3 seconds to stop Pain from using Almighty Push/Pull Goku's headass is sending entire blasts of energy at enemies on a Planet, the enemy dodges, and said Beams DONT EVEN PUT A DENT IN THE FLOOR Luffy has been dodging Light since the Pre Timeskip/Beginning of TS yet is still fighting a dude who is MADE OF LIGHT

 

[Adr10K]

As consistent as possible? Naruto has been Faster than sound since the end of Pt1 but couldn't make it 30 meters in 3 seconds to stop Pain from using Almighty Push/Pull Goku's headass is sending entire blasts of energy at enemies on a Planet, the enemy dodges, and said Beams DONT EVEN PUT A DENT IN THE FLOOR Luffy has been dodging Light since the Pre Timeskip/Beginning of TS yet is still fighting a dude who is MADE OF LIGHT

Ok, you're just not getting anything.