Star Wars Legends Top Tiers Cleanup

[OTG0001]

Neither of those links work, but yes, artificial voids that can be destroyed by mere proton torpedoes are not real black holes.

Them being artificial doesn't discredit them at all being verbatim stated to be black holes, but do as you will.

There are many instances in verses where a character creates black holes, which would technically make them "artificial", yet we don't see them being needlessly contended.

The proton torpedo argument is a misinterpretation of the text. Nowhere do the proton torpedoes destroy the black holes -- they cause a momentary lapse in the field of gravity at best. The other statements I have seen of proton torpedoes supposedly destroying Dovin Basils are ones highlighting a tactic the NR uses wherein they detonate a proton torpedo near a Dovin Basil, which damages the surrounding area, but that tactic accounts for the fact that they ARE BLACK HOLES.

Engineering is general a group project yes, especially something on a galactic scale attributed to their entire race. The whole point of why it was built in the first place was to contain Mnggal-Mnggal who along with the World Razer were wrecking havoc on their entire civilization.

No, engineering feats can be done by a single individual, and it being attributed to the race's accomplishments doesn't mean such a feat can't be done by one individual. Also not sure where you got the World Razer wrecking havoc on their civilization from.

This is baseless reaching for an excuse. Luke directly implies both sources result in the same effect and says nothing of drawing from both somehow reversing course to “stabilize” the one affected.

Implications are generally not baseless, and it's also ironic that a lot of your arguments are based on implication, (Ie, Flesh Mounds) but I digress.

Send the quote saying they are the EXACT SAME EFFECT.

You are moving the goalposts. You asked for proof the Shelter was in the Maw. I gave it.

Since you seem unware, the entire plot point surrounding the Shelter is that it is an old sceret weapons facility built by the empire to conceal their construction of superweapon prototypes by hiding them in the Maw which is near impossible to access without knowing the exact safe routes to get there in between all the black holes. This is then later retrofitted as a Jedi hideout and is similarly occupied for years on end in between all the black holes for the sake of secrecy.

They are in the Maw, surrounded by black holes. That is the entire point of the station.

I am very well aware of what the Maw Installation is Epyriel.

Being within the Maw doesn't really matter, and that much was somewhat evident anyways. I am not moving the Goalposts if the evidence you sent was not what I asked for, I asked WHERE in the Maw that it's located. Distance to Black Holes DOES matter, and the images we have of the Maw Installation depict it being somewhat of a distance from the large clusters of Black Holes:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/c/c0/Maw.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080930183024

He was literally getting soloed by Ben Skywalker and getting ragdolled by Vestara completely independent of Luke who was busy fighting Abeloth.
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Not to mention how effortlessly Luke was ragdolling him whenever he did get involved, with Abeloth needing to save Taalon before Luke could finish him.

So Luke isn't involved but somehow he's involved?

This is a 3v1, you're going to expend a lot more energy fighting 3 people than 1, and believe or it not people grow progressively weaker when they run out of energy. I don't think this is indicative of anything, especially considering his injuries as well.

As I have gone over half a dozen times at this point, a progression of control and takeover highlighted by her own face symbolized as responsible seems pretty implicit as to what is going on, in no other case does thing merely affected by her influence take on a similar fleshy form.
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Things merely under her influence have never progressively turned into her own flesh after growing similar tentacles. Her own domain on her planet in the Maw illustrates the difference, despite all the plants and animals being subject to her influence, none of them are growing eldritch tentacles or blobbing together or assimilating to form singular piles of flesh.

This is literally argument from ignorance ATP.

You have not at all addressed that these clumps of flesh could have been a by-product of her killing off things (which would feed her) instead of simple avatars, which is much less of a leap than attributing it to her avatars, when the murals don't depict complete biosphere control nor do they remotely correlate flesh and avatars.

Absolutely nothing in the scan suggests that the flesh is hers, apart from your quantum leap that somehow it's correlated due to the face in the sky. The fact that there are islands of flesh could just be a mass die-off of sea life in a single area. The extra details you injected into the scan, it's just flesh, no more no less, not some special flesh like you seem to argue. Also just because they have tentacles doesn't mean she somehow has a leap in power. Carnivorous plants, which require special adaptions, are generally not present among plant species, yet a lot of Abeloth's Planet is covered in carnivorous plants, which suggests that she mutated them as well.

You also haven't addressed that the Killiks are unreliable, which also defeats the correlations you are making.

Both of which are omitted from your response, which is quite telling ngl.

Nothing implies they are higher-dimensional in any meaningful way as to their effect on others.

Understand what you're arguing before making a response like this? Whether or not it's higher dimensional has no relation to how much of a effect it produces, especially when you're arguing that it was mostly the gravity and not the lack of living force which hindered Abeloth. If it was indeed as you say, it's not too much of a detriment, it just means Abeloth is 5d instead of 6d while imprisoned and after her subsequent release. If we go down the other route then it's not indicative of her power at all as she was depowered.

The statement itself just says tearing at the fabric of the universe with no further specification for higher dimensions.

Meanwhile the Father’s statement about their retreat from the ‘temporal world’ just means Mortis is a timeless pocket dimension (or at least operating on a separate time that doesn’t clock in beat with the rest of the verse seeing as how no time passed when the Jedi returned to their ship). This does not imply some higher existence.

Yea, I agree with this, they specifically mention the universe, and there's no further context supporting this extends higher, like for instance in the Force's case where it is called the universe but we know this terms encapsulates everything in the verse.

Luke is the same guy who thinks parts of Mortis survived. You can’t say his conviction means nothing and then turn around and say him saying their ‘world’ was destroyed is absolute proof of everything being no more.

Luke is relatively uncertain of it's survival, not sure where you got him thinking parts of it 100% without a doubt survived, but even if it did, parts of it surviving still implies destruction, which correlates with what is shown in TCW and what Luke says in the scan.

At this point you might as well try to make every character in the verse 1-C.

The fact the Force is higher dimensional means nothing when the character drawing a fraction of it cannot evoke power of that scale. All of these characters would fall infinitely short AP wise unless they were also 1-C.

Most characters do indeed have higher-dimensional hax, through the manipulation of Dovin Basils, affecting the Living Force on a monumental degree or affecting Hyperspace. That's a discussion for the 1-C Palpatine Thread though.

For this thread's topic though, the Mortis Trio do scale to the Living Force in a pretty substantial degree, via being the very aspects themselves. I do believe there is also a differentiation between the "physical" Living Force and the one present within Beyond Shadows (Ie, the True Essence)

 

[Xavis10]

This is an incredibly dubious cop-out. Their effect as “restrictors of the Living Force” wasn’t even enough to weaken mere Force sensitive children by any noticeable degree, just make them uncomfortable.

The point is that they still have an effect. Being "cessations outside of life" restricts her access to life energy, as said energy would be sucked into it.

The statement itself just says tearing at the fabric of the universe with no further specification for higher dimensions.

Temporal worlds would include the other dimensions, which are still subject to time in ways Mortis isn't. Had he not used this specific term, then yes, I'd agree this referred to Realspace exclusively.

Meanwhile the Father’s statement about their retreat from the ‘temporal world’ just means Mortis is a timeless pocket dimension (or at least operating on a separate time that doesn’t clock in beat with the rest of the verse seeing as how no time passed when the Jedi returned to their ship). This does not imply some higher existence.

When one couples that statement with the dangers of remaining in the Universe, should they tear its fabric, it becomes such a level, yes. Besides, with or without the temporal worlds statement, Mortis is still described as metaphysical, abstract and "a spiritual realm", a description no other dimension of the cosmology (besides the Beyond Shadows) shares [I believe those scans are in the first 2 CRTs].

???

I am saying the crystal and the temple are the only things we see destroyed and they are unlikely to be 1-C.

This is a double standard. “I get to assume with certainty I am correct when in character beliefs support my position, but when they contradict it their beliefs mean nothing”.

Luke is the same guy who thinks parts of Mortis survived. You can’t say his conviction means nothing and then turn around and say him saying their ‘world’ was destroyed is absolute proof of everything being no more.

Nope, that's not what I did at all. I said that we have hints that it was destroyed + another statement saying it indeed was. Then we have one statement whose speakers have severe doubts it still exists. The evidence points to Mortis having been destroyed. If it was the other way around and we had hints otherwise, I'd agree it was not destroyed.

And yes, every instance of their actual telekinesis contradicts it.

Not really. Give examples of the Mortis Gods falling short, in the TK department, of their current tier, because there really aren't any.

At this point you might as well try to make every character in the verse 1-C.

Not 1-C, but with higher dimensional abilities? Definitely.

He is fully versed in FOTJ Abeloth’s strength. He has fought her repeatedly in almost every book she makes an appearance in, and has killed multiple avatars. There is zero reason for him to underestimate her durability by several factors of infinity.

He still agrees with Abeloth's powers being "beyond comprehension" (IIRC), that's not being fully versed in his opponent's strength.


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In any one case, the sole thing relevant for this whole argument is the Mortis Gods' scaling, then Abeloth's based off of that.

 

[Epyriel]

You know what? You guys win. I am abandoning this thread and the verse as a whole on VSBW.

It seems Brandolini's Law holds true.

Every new post seems to open up entirely new tangents of BS to debunk, and I am tired of waking up every morning to new snide comments and disingenuous squirrelling.

I don’t even want to try to imagine what a nightmare trying to fix the profiles of characters from popular media is going to be if even obvious downgrades like FOTJ Abeloth is going to lead to this much mess when the opposition has never even read the source material.

Genuinely the entire verse should be deleted as there is more misinformation than facts on every profile and it seems people are determined to make it worse as long as the numbers keep going up.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You know what? You guys win. I am abandoning this thread and the verse as a whole on VSBW.

It seems Brandolini's Law holds true.

Every new post seems to open up entirely new tangents of BS to debunk, and I am tired of waking up every morning to new snide comments and disingenuous squirrelling.

I don’t even want to try to imagine what a nightmare trying to fix the profiles of characters from popular media is going to be if even obvious downgrades like FOTJ Abeloth is going to lead to this much mess when the opposition has never even read the source material.

Genuinely the entire verse should be deleted as there is more misinformation than facts on every profile and it seems people are determined to make it worse as long as the numbers keep going up.

But you don't have, like, enough votes for most things?

 

[Epyriel]

But you don't have, like, enough votes for most things?

Nope. The ones other than Lephyr’s needs to be redone after a changed opinion and are thus void.

If someone else wants to readdress things in the future, go ahead and good luck. I cannot be bothered to deal with this anymore.

 

[OTG0001]

You know what? You guys win. I am abandoning this thread and the verse as a whole on VSBW.

It seems Brandolini's Law holds true.

Every new post seems to open up entirely new tangents of BS to debunk, and I am tired of waking up every morning to new snide comments and disingenuous squirrelling.

I don’t even want to try to imagine what a nightmare trying to fix the profiles of characters from popular media is going to be if even obvious downgrades like FOTJ Abeloth is going to lead to this much mess when the opposition has never even read the source material.

Genuinely the entire verse should be deleted as there is more misinformation than facts on every profile and it seems people are determined to make it worse as long as the numbers keep going up.

Don't know why you attempted scaling in general, because misinformation will be present everywhere, and it's near impossible if not downright impossible to achieve a full consensus on the truth.

That's why I don't really debate anymore, it's pretty useless trying to convince others, so I hope you take that into consideration.

 

[Epyriel]

Don't know why you attempted scaling in general, because misinformation will be present everywhere, and it's near impossible if not downright impossible to achieve a full consensus on the truth.

That's why I don't really debate anymore, it's pretty useless trying to convince others, so I hope you take that into consideration.

Not a single other verse with anywhere near a similar level of attention on this entire platform comes remotely close to as bad, as misinformation filled, and as wanked to high hell as this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You know what? You guys win. I am abandoning this thread and the verse as a whole on VSBW.

It seems Brandolini's Law holds true.

Every new post seems to open up entirely new tangents of BS to debunk, and I am tired of waking up every morning to new snide comments and disingenuous squirrelling.

I don’t even want to try to imagine what a nightmare trying to fix the profiles of characters from popular media is going to be if even obvious downgrades like FOTJ Abeloth is going to lead to this much mess when the opposition has never even read the source material.

Genuinely the entire verse should be deleted as there is more misinformation than facts on every profile and it seems people are determined to make it worse as long as the numbers keep going up.

I significantly abhor this kind of mentality. You are not the arbiter of objective truth. People will understand and think differently than you, period.They have their reasoning for why they Abeloth should retain her rating, whether we believe is wrong is ultimately our own opinions and how we understand the narrative presented. That is it.

I will close this thread since you asked for it in the All-Purpose Request Thread, but as I reiterate many many times: One of the most important rules on the site: Be Reasonable