Star Wars Legends Top Tiers Cleanup

[Epyriel]

This is a followup to this thread to finalize characters scaling to Beyond Shadows through Mind Walking, slightly revise The Ones to distinguish their Environmental Destruction from their telekinesis, and cleanup scaling off of Abeloth and the Mortis Gods.

Scaling Explanations:​

Beyond Shadows​

In the prior thread Luke Skywalker got upgraded to 1-A while Mind Walking, however the same process for reaching Beyond Shadows was also performed by several other characters using the same technique who should scale similarly. Thus characters like Darth Krayt, Sarasu Taalon, Darth Caedus, Ben Skywalker, Gavar Khai, Leeha Faal and all of the Mind Drinkers should also get the same benefit when Mind Walking.

The Ones and Abeloth​

In the prior thread the physical incarnations of The Ones and Abeloth got upgraded to 1-C by scaling their ability to embody an aspect of the Force and effect the Force on a universal scale which should reach across even Hyperspace (scaled to 1-C in the prior thread) where mortals can access the Force just as easily as in Realspace.

However two issues remain which I believe should be addressed:

1. Separating FOTJ Abeloth and Pre-Imprisonment Abeloth

Spoiler

Currently Abeloth only has a single key that treats her prime and her appearance in FOTJ as interchangeable despite an incredibly drastic difference in power, which has lead to some incredibly dubious scaling of other characters in FOTJ being treated as rivals to the power of Abeloth’s prime.

To make things clear, Abeloth’s relativity to The Ones comes from her contention with them before her first defeat and subsequent imprisonment. After being imprisoned by The Ones on her planet in the Maw, she is left there to starve and grow weaker for the better part of a hundred thousand years with only infrequent momentary breakouts offering only temporary respite:

This prison, known as the Maw, was built by Centerpoint Station. For 100,000 years she languished in her prison, angry, terrified, and worst of all, alone.

-Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station

It was Ben who blurted this. “How is that possible? Abeloth has been locked in the Maw for twenty-five thousand years!”

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

This isolation mattered quite a lot, as Abeloth requires feeding on the life energies of other Force users to sustain herself, and upon re-emerging in FOTJ she makes feeding on Dyon Stad a top priority:

She pulled back, and a glowing golden mist clung to her lips. The mist grew, mercifully obscuring her face as she extracted— A deep, agonized groan was ripped from Dyon, hauled from his innermost soul, floating on that golden mist. Every limb, every centimeter, every cell of him was coming under attack. It was not like the searing, focused pain in his temple; this pain was aching and deep. The pain at his temple changed from white-hot to icy cold, and it began to enter him. As Abeloth pulled forth something— Life energy, she’s taking my life essence … —from his body, she gave in return a dreadful cold. A slithering, dark cold that wrapped around his throat, closing it, then his heart, then his entrails, then seeped implacably into the rest of him. He could feel himself withering up, the desiccation turning him into a living corpse, dried and husklike, as if he had been buried in the sand for centuries. Abeloth chuckled, a throaty, warm sound. “You have served me well, better than any have in a long time. Soon, we will become one, Dyon Stad. Soon, you will never leave me. And you will have enabled me to continue.”

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

She had come here, seeking answers, and found only the lonely, needy monster imprisoned at the heart of the Maw. The thing that had lured Jacen in, had damaged so many, had grown and fed and used Callista as it had used others before and since.

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

The three Sith that Taalon had left to aid Dyon had already been dispatched. There was no obvious damage to the corpses, but they all had looks of terror frozen on their faces. And now, Abeloth had returned to Dyon to finish the job she’d started earlier. Dyon lay on his back, his face contorted in fear. Abeloth straddled him in a horrible parody of lovers, her tentacle fingers pressed to his face, her huge, grinning mouth a centimeter from his. Glowing golden energy wrapped about them.

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

After Sarasu Taalon bathes in the Pool of Knowledge and becomes an Abeloth-like being, he rapidly becomes weaker after not feeding and is told as much by Abeloth herself:

“You are weak because you have not been feeding,” Abeloth was saying to Taalon. “Mortals need to feed, do they not?”

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

Abeloth in particular requires feeding on the fear of sapients to rejuvenate herself (of which she was deprived during her years in isolation):

“After a while, the terror finally drained from Pagorski’s face. I thought maybe she had died. But then her face turned so pale that I could see the tentacles writhing around under her skin, pumping something dark and viscous through her nose—up into her sinuses—and down into her throat. I didn’t think there was any way she could live through that, but she did. I could see her chest rising and falling as she breathed, and she never—well, she never went slack, the way dead people do. Finally, she seemed to get stronger, and she sort of looked at me and smiled. But it wasn’t just Pagorski looking. She was still in there, and I could see in her eyes that she was going crazy with fear. But Abeloth was in there, too—and she was enjoying it.” “As though she were feeding on it?” Luke asked. Dorvan opened his eyes and thought for a moment, then nodded. “Yes,” he said. “Exactly like that. She was feeding on the fear.”
“We’ve seen that before,” Luke said.
“On Pydyr, Abeloth seemed to be creating an aura of fear so she could draw on the dark side energies it released. We’re fairly certain it’s how she rejuvenates herself.” “A Force being that feeds on fear?” Dorvan looked through the viewport, out over the battle havoc that filled Fellowship Plaza, and shook his head in open despair. “In that case, Master Skywalker, you had better kill her soon—while it is still possible.”

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

This effect is so drastic, that even in the very short time Sarasu Taalon was subjected to his condition he was weakened so much that he went from someone whose power rivalled if not surpassed FOTJ Luke Skywalker down to someone who could be fought and killed by the likes of Ben Skywalker and Vestara Khai, who was so weak she got quite literally fingerflicked by FOTJ Luke:

Luke flicked a finger in Vestara’s direction and sent her tumbling toward Taalon, who was limping across the floor toward Ben, one knee buckling every time he placed weight on it. Had the High Lord been at his best, he would simply have redirected the girl straight into Luke. Weakened as he was by his injury and his ongoing transformation, he barely managed to Force-jump over her—and that left him vulnerable.

-Fate of the Jedi: Vortex

It is also noted that the dozens of black holes she has been trapped by for thousands of years weakens Force users:

Luke nodded. “Black holes are an interesting astronomical phenomenon to scientists, and a vaguely unsettling image for most other people … but Force-users and Force-sensitives have a real dislike or dread of them.”
“Why?”
His father shrugged. “The Force derives from life. Even death is not all that disturbing to a Force-user, since it is a part, a necessary consequence, of life. Black holes are something else. A cessation outside of life. Maybe the way they draw in all energy and trap it forever runs against our instincts. I’m not sure. I do know that the Force-sensitive children we hid at Shelter during the Yuuzhan Vong War did not like being in the Maw, surrounded on all sides by black holes. You’re too young to remember, but the Jedi caretakers at Shelter said there was a lot of crying.

-Fate of the Jedi: Outcast

Luke did not reply. More than ever, he was convinced that Sinkhole Station’s job was to keep this being in line—keep the black holes surrounding her world, so that she couldn’t escape. When he and Ben had been there, the station had clearly been falling into disrepair and it looked like the situation had worsened just in the short time they had been away. Now the area to which Abeloth had been confined had shifted ominously, and this bright blue star burned like a defiant flag run up a pole, daring them to come and get her. Which, Luke mused, they would.

[…]

Luke brought the navigation sensors back up, turning on the floodlights, and instantly realized why they had not been able to sense any life emanating from Sinkhole Station. Sinkhole Station had been destroyed.

[…]

Luke was now more certain than ever that Sinkhole Station had been designed to contain Abeloth, and that she was, as his beloved Mara had said, something very old, and very dangerous. It had probably been suicidal to think that he and Ben could have approached her alone. Even though he had asserted to the Sith that he wanted to try to reason with her, understand her, he suspected that such overtures would not be welcomed. He suspected, in fact, given what he was looking at now, that they might be flattened like insects.

-Fate of the Jedi: Allies

To give a bit of context for how weak she has grown in all that time, the Killiks recount that in one of her previous breakouts she had grown strong enough to possess the biospheres of entire planets as avatars:

After hurrying through two more archways, Thuruht finally stopped before a set of panels depicting three devastated worlds. In the first, an entire city lay in ruins. There were fungi rising from the rubble, and a drove of three-eyed bipeds could be seen fleeing a horde of tentacled felines. The second relief showed scores of dazed woodland creatures struggling through a blast-flattened forest, many fighting in vain to escape the fangvines wrapped around their legs. The third scene was the most gruesome of all. It was an ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh. Hanging in the sky of each world was a female face with a gaping, fang-filled smile that stretched from one ear to another.
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

By comparison, at the end of FOTJ she can only manage 3 human sized avatars.

So FOTJ Abeloth (and by association FOTJ Luke and FOTJ Darth Krayt) shouldn’t scale anywhere near the Ones or Abeloth in her prime.

2. Separating Telekinesis and Environmental Destruction

Spoiler

The Mortis Gods are currently scaled to 1-C off of Hyperspace due to their effects on the balance of the Force (which can be felt even in Hyperspace). However these effects can also be felt Beyond Shadows and thus should scale to 1-A instead, but only in the form of Environmental Destruction.

The actual telekinetic abilities of the Mortis Gods have been repeatedly stated as inferior or relative to things like the Maw (which Abeloth couldn’t overpower) and Centerpoint Station, both of which are Multi-Solar System level.

Centerpoint Station, the most powerful force in the galaxy, second only to the power of the Force itself, was created in February 1995 by legendary science fiction author Roger Macbride Allen for his Corellian trilogy series of novels for Bantam Spectra. The station’s power dwarfed that of previous superweapons and left an impression on fans, paving the way for the station’s return as both a setting and superweapon in future novels and role-playing games. This is its story.

-Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station

The only evidence offered for their more general Force abilities to scale to 1-C is the creation of the Great Hyperspace Barrier and the possibility of the Celestials escaping to a higher plane, however both of these things were done by the civilization of the Celestials, not the Mortis Gods (who had withdrawn from the galaxy tens of thousands of years ago at this point).

Mortis Anakin​

This part is fairly simply, Anakin fought and overpowered The Son and The Daughter with the Mortis Amp in their physical incarnations, not Beyond Shadows. As such, he should be scaled to their physical incarnations.

FOTJ Krayt​

Spoiler

Darth Krayt is currently scaled as relative to FOTJ Luke due to their performance while Beyond Shadows, yet Base Krayt is also scaled to Base Luke.

This is an issue as there are several factors that allowed Krayt to help against Abeloth that simply do not apply outside Beyond Shadows.

First of all, the location of the final battle against Abeloth was near one of the most powerful Dark Side nexuses in existence, which would greatly boost Krayt and greatly hinder Luke relative to each other:

Vestara opened herself to the Force and felt it rush into her, so dark and cold it was almost overwhelming. She had never before been to a place so strong in the Force, where it actually raised tiny bumps on her skin and made her spine crawl with excitement. None of them had, and she could tell by the precision with which even Lady Rhea drew on the Force here that they were all just a bit frightened of its strength. Of course, that did not stop anyone from actually using it. No true Sith would ever allow fear to stand between her and power.

-Fate of the Jedi: Abyss

Luke resisted the temptation to start hurling accusations. The Font of Power was clearly a dark side nexus, and Ryontarr, at least, would understand what that meant.

-Fate of the Jedi: Abyss

Second, Krayt’s Vong implants that hindered and weakened him so throughout the years aren’t present while Beyond Shadows while he is in his ethereal form, but they would still apply when outside this state.

Third, Krayt needed to drain Luke (his ally) in order to at all stay relevant against Abeloth, once again aiding Krayt and hindering Luke:

Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

Yet despite all this, Luke still significantly outperformed Krayt against Abeloth, being the first to do damage, the only to pierce her melee guard, the one to deal the killing blow, and the one who was more consistently engaging and attacking at higher risk. So there should really be no solid reason that FOTJ Krayt scales to FOTJ Luke at all outside these circumstances. Especially considering Reborn Krayt’s superiority statements over his Vong implants incarnations.

Proposed Changes:​

Beyond Shadows Scaling
The Father (True Essence), The Daughter (True Essence), The Son (True Essence), Abeloth (True Essence), Luke (While Mind Walking), Darth Caedus (While Mind Walking), Darth Krayt (While Mind Walking), Ben Skywalker (While Mind Walking), Sarasu Taalon (While Mind Walking), Gavar Khai (While Mind Walking), Leeha Faal (While Mind Walking):

• Attack Potency: Outerverse level
• Speed: Immeasurable
• Lifting Strength: Immeasurable
• Striking Strength: Outerverse level
• Range: Outerversal

(1:4) Agree: LephyrTheRevanchist, Re5yh, Xavis, OTG0001, Grand_Astartes
(0:0) Disagree:
(0:0) Neutral:

Mortis Gods Physical Incarnation Scaling
The Father (Physical Incarnation), The Son (Physical Incarnation), The Daughter (Physical Incarnation), Abeloth (Pre-Imprisonment Physical Avatars):

• Attack Potency: Multi-Solar System level; Outerverse level with Environmental Destruction
• Durability: Multi-Solar System level with Force Amplification
• Striking Strength: Multi-Solar System level with Force Amplification

(0:1) Agree: Re5yh
(1:3) Disagree: Xavis, LephyrTheRevanchist, OTG0001, Grand_Astartes
(0:0) Neutral:

Anakin Skywalker (Mortis Amp):

• Set equal to the Physical Incarnations of the Mortis Gods

(1:3) Agree: LephyrTheRevanchist, Re5yh, Xavis, Grand_Astartes
(0:0) Disagree:
(0:0) Neutral:

FOTJ Scaling
Abeloth (Post-Release Physical Avatars), Luke Skywalker (FOTJ):

• Attack Potency: Solar System level
• Durability: Solar System level with Force Amplification
• Striking Strength: Solar System level with Force Amplification

(1:1) Agree: LephyrTheRevanchist, Re5yh
(0:3) Disagree: Xavis, OTG0001, Grand_Astartes
(0:0) Neutral:

Darth Krayt (FOTJ):

• Attack Potency: Planet level
• Speed: FTL
• Durability: Planet level with Force Amplification
• Striking Strength: Planet level with Force Amplification

(0:2) Agree: Re5yh, Xavis
(1:0) Disagree: LephyrTheRevanchist
(0:0) Neutral:

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Darth Krayt could still downscale from Abeloth instead. The dark side nexus wasn't hindering her, so it isn't relevant there. Also, the fact his force drain is powerful enough to affect both Abeloth and Luke is an indication of him being close to their level, even if below. Furthermore, Krayt did actually damage her + straight tanked a blast from her:

"The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth’s stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.
Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off. He held tight."
—Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

(Note: the above happened before Krayt drained them)

So the only relevant point is whether the Vong implants nerf him so much that he wouldn't be able to replicate this outside the Beyond Shadows.

I do agree with the rest tho

 

[Epyriel]

Darth Krayt could still downscale from Abeloth instead. The dark side nexus wasn't hindering her, so it isn't relevant there. Furthermore, Krayt did actually damage her + straight tanked a blast from her:

(Note: the above happened before Krayt drained them)

So the only relevant point is whether the Vong implants nerf him so much that he wouldn't be able to replicate this outside the Beyond Shadows.

The issue is that conventional durability doesn’t really apply while Beyond Shadows as everyone is essentially just their own ethereal Force essence ripping at each other:

In the next thought Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help—and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could. Luke attacked anyway, driving an elbow strike into the side of her head. As before, there was no crunching, no physical sense of impact, only Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through them both. Luke sensed his elbow come free as it pushed out the other side of Abeloth’s head. Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger … each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

And when she really wanted to, Abeloth sent an attack that tore straight through Krayt:

Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through the stranger into Luke.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

While the only times Krayt held on in close combat to Abeloth was while Luke was also pinning her down (including in your raised example).

Also, the fact his force drain is powerful enough to affect both Abeloth and Luke is an indication of him being close to their level, even if below.

This much is a matter of technique, not raw power. In the Clone Wars it was stated that only Anakin upon learning Ulic Qel-Droma’s technique to resist Force Drain could avoid being instantly killed by the Dark Reaper despite others like Yoda being at least relative if not superior to him.

Meanwhile both Luke and Abeloth were significantly injured/weakened from previous engagements while Krayt is fresh.

Abeloth recently lost several Avatars and her remaining two are in an active struggle at the same time as the battle, and it has previously been shown how hurting one Avatar disrupts the others (like with how Fett and Jaina killing theirs saved Luke against the Korelei Avatar).

Luke recently suffered extensive injuries in the same book:

They came together in a collision that left Luke's head spinning and his bones aching. He knew his lightsaber had struck home because he smelled scorched flesh. The hilt was wobbling against his hand as Korelei struggled to free herself of the searing blade. He felt a palm press itself to his chest, so he brought his free hand up and grabbed her armˇ...ˇtoo late. His entire body sizzled into the joint-crushing grip of a Force lightning strike.

The agony seemed to last forever. Luke could feel his own flesh charring beneath the palm pressed to his chest; he was paralyzed by the lightning, unable to fight free or attack with a head-butt, or even flick his lightsaber blade and finish Korelei. He simply hung paralyzed, one hand clutching her arm, the other pressing the hilt to her chest, wondering how long it would take her to die.

A lot longer than Luke, apparently. Her free arm rose between them, pushing off to create some space. Then she twisted away, hurling him into the duct wall and sliding off his lightsaber sideways. The act opened a gaping chasm in her torso.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

While the fact they are fighting her true form at all while her Avatars are engaged is itself exploiting the vulnerability in her connection between them, as was most consequential before as seen with her vulnerability to Mnemotherapy techniques as well as Darish Vol’s own escape.

All of which combines to explain how a very weakened Luke is fighting relative to Abeloth at all despite the fact he had previously been torn apart by individual Avatars like Korelei despite having allies at his side.

Which is why I doubt Krayt could actually compete with the likes of Luke on even ground especially when you consider his relatively to the likes of Darth Wyyrlok III who is locked below the likes of Karness Muur who should be far far below the likes of Luke.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Which is why I doubt Krayt could actually compete with the likes of Luke on even ground especially when you consider his relatively to the likes of Darth Wyyrlok III who is locked below the likes of Karness Muur who should be far far below the likes of Luke.

Tbf, his fight with Wyyyrlok occured several years after, when he was at his weakest from being ravaged by the Vong implants. Very unlike how he is depicted during FotJ, so I wouldn't take that as seriously.

Quite genuinely, there just isn't disputing how Krayt handled the fight. Specially under a UES like the Force is. He got portrayed as keeping up with Abeloth and Luke, thus his command of the Force shouldn't be leagues below them. While the Vong implants nerf him, it isn't like during the Legacy era where he is so affected he's genuinely on the verge of just dropping.

But I do see where you are coming from. There are circumstances all around. But the end result is still the same imo. He should downscale overall.

 

[Re5yh]

I agree with beyond shadows and the others

 

[Epyriel]

Tbf, his fight with Wyyyrlok occured several years after, when he was at his weakest from being ravaged by the Vong implants. Very unlike how he is depicted during FotJ, so I wouldn't take that as seriously.

Krayt and Wyyrlok’s duel happened after Krayt’s rebirth where he ditched the Vong implants and was described as more powerful than ever before:

Darth Krayt, leader of the One Sith, has been reborn from his near death at the hands of Darth Wyyrlok; he has sent ripples through the Force so that all Sith know he is alive and well […] What no one knows is that Darth Krayt is returning better than before […]

-Legacy: War Part 1

“I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied. The dark side of the Force lives and manifests itself through me!”

-Darth Krayt, Legacy Issue 50

Quite genuinely, there just isn't disputing how Krayt handled the fight. Specially under a UES like the Force is. He got portrayed as keeping up with Abeloth and Luke, thus his command of the Force shouldn't be leagues below them. While the Vong implants nerf him, it isn't like during the Legacy era where he is so affected he's genuinely on the verge of just dropping.

But I do see where you are coming from. There are circumstances all around. But the end result is still the same imo. He should downscale overall.

He was performing worse albeit somewhat relative to a significantly weakened and uniquely vulnerable Abeloth and a significantly nerfed and prior injured Luke while amped himself.

I just don’t see the case from him scaling to FOTJ Luke, let alone FOTJ Abeloth’s best feats.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Krayt and Wyyrlok’s duel happened after Krayt’s rebirth where he ditched the Vong implants and was described as more powerful than ever before:

Ah, you meant that one

My mistake there. And honestly, that there is PIS pretty much. We already knew he was the strongest sith prior, where Wyyyrlok didn't dare to confront him until he was at his death bed, and even then he survived Wyyyrlok's all-out lightning. His reborn state should've, by all accounts, stomped Wyyyrlok even ignoring FotJ stuff. So imo, I still wouldn't take it as seriously.

 

[Epyriel]

Ah, you meant that one

My mistake there. And honestly, that there is PIS pretty much. We already knew he was the strongest sith prior, where Wyyyrlok didn't dare to confront him until he was at his death bed, and even then he survived Wyyyrlok's all-out lightning. His reborn state should've, by all accounts, stomped Wyyyrlok even ignoring FotJ stuff. So imo, I still wouldn't take it as seriously.

Why should an explicit scene of a clash of Force powers cancelling out be considered PIS in Legacy, and not in Apocalypse where there are far fewer indications of relatively, and multiple in-universe explanations explaining the disparity?

Especially since if you hold even FOTJ Krayt as Luke level you also need to appeal to PIS to explain Reborn Krayt getting killed by Cade after a fight where Krayt’s opponent was once again weaker but relative.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Especially since if you hold even FOTJ Krayt as Luke level you also need to appeal to PIS to explain Reborn Krayt getting killed by Cade after a fight where Krayt’s opponent was once more weaker but relative.

Krayt wasn't trying to kill Cade, instead trying to corrupt him. Throughout the fight, Cade was constantly on his back foot anyways, and only managed to kill him with essentially a cheap shot. So yeah, unironically CIS (character induced stupidity) from Krayt's part.

 

[Epyriel]

Krayt wasn't trying to kill Cade, instead trying to corrupt him. Throughout the fight, Cade was constantly on his back foot anyways, and only managed to kill him with essentially a cheap shot. So yeah, unironically CIS (character induced stupidity) from Krayt's part.

Sure, but despite this Krayt failed to disable him when blasting him with lightning and Darth Talon even thought Cade’s power was enough of a threat that she felt a desperate need to try and warn her master despite knowing full well his power. Then Krayt manages to get off-guarded by someone who should be a half a dozen stomp gaps below him if FOTJ Krayt’s relativity to Luke held water.

There is just so little that indicates Luke level power from Krayt, and many reasons to doubt it.

 

[OTG0001]

I disagree with most of the thread, will make a more detailed response later; Xavis also disagrees and he might make a response later also.

 

[LordTracer]

My thoughts are more-or-less the same as Lephyr’s, I agree with everything but the Krayt downgrade.

 

[Xavis10]

I disagree with everything but the Krayt downgrade and the Mortis Anakin part.

None of the statements provided are indicative of her having grown weaker after having been imprisoned. If anything, she was only weakened during her imprisonment due to the black holes, as the statements here support. Once she's outside the Maw, the black holes stop being a hindrance to Abeloth's power.

As for her rejuvenating herself through fear, rejuvenation ≠ power, in this context that is not stated.

Also, Sarasu Taalon didn't become "an Abeloth-like being", as he only ever bathed in the Pool of Knowledge whereas Abeloth bathed in the Pool and drank from the Well of Power too. The weakness Taalon had could very well be due to not having bathed and drunk from both nexuses. Plus, Abeloth visibly distances herself from Sarasu in the way she addresses him:

"Mortals need to feed, do they not?"

This implies Abeloth no longer has the same kind of hindrances Sarasu, Luke or any "mortal" could have, such as 'feeding', she's already above that.

As for Sarasu's own weakness, the way it's described hinges more on his injury than the transformation itself, "knee buckling every time he placed weight on it."


As for Abeloth's supposed possession of three biospheres, size ≠ power. Abeloth has full control over her avatars, she can control their physiology. Furthermore, the text doesn't support her controlling the full biospheres at all, only some species or individuals of some species. By FOTJ, she had 3 human avatars, correct. Do remember, however, that she still controls an entire planet in the Maw, fauna and flora. That's superior to anything the statement for her "possessing three planetary biospheres" (which isn't the situation) presents.

"The world is very hostile, completely unnatural. The animals thrive by photosynthesis, and the plants prey upon them." She gave Ben and Luke a half-smile. "Keeps you on your toes." "And Abeloth controls everything," Luke surmised. "She does."
-FOTJ: Allies


As for the Mortis Gods being stated to be inferior to the Maw or Centerpoint station, the statement given to prove that doesn't support that at all. Two things, Centerpoint Station is inside the galaxy; Mortis (and therefore The Ones) is (are) completely outside it and the Universe, aside from being a higher plane contingent on the Father's existence as well.
Aside from this, that statement may well be hyperbole. There's a scan saying Palpatine is "the mightiest being who ever lived".

"And what of the Emperor? He was mighty in the Force, perhaps the mightiest being who has ever lived."

Do we now consider DE Palpatine > Mortis Gods?

 

[Epyriel]

I disagree with everything but the Krayt downgrade and the Mortis Anakin part.

What about the Beyond Shadows scaling?

None of the statements provided are indicative of her having grown weaker after having been imprisoned. If anything, she was only weakened during her imprisonment due to the black holes, as the statements here support. Once she's outside the Maw, the black holes stop being a hindrance to Abeloth's power.

As for her rejuvenating herself through fear, rejuvenation ≠ power, in this context that is not stated.

Also, Sarasu Taalon didn't become "an Abeloth-like being", as he only ever bathed in the Pool of Knowledge whereas Abeloth bathed in the Pool and drank from the Well of Power too. The weakness Taalon had could very well be due to not having bathed and drunk from both nexuses. Plus, Abeloth visibly distances herself from Sarasu in the way she addresses him:

"Mortals need to feed, do they not?"

This implies Abeloth no longer has the same kind of hindrances Sarasu, Luke or any "mortal" could have, such as 'feeding', she's already above that.

As for Sarasu's own weakness, the way it's described hinges more on his injury than the transformation itself, "knee buckling every time he placed weight on it."


As for Abeloth's supposed possession of three biospheres, size ≠ power. Abeloth has full control over her avatars, she can control their physiology. Furthermore, the text doesn't support her controlling the full biospheres at all, only some species or individuals of some species. By FOTJ, she had 3 human avatars, correct. Do remember, however, that she still controls an entire planet in the Maw, fauna and flora. That's superior to anything the statement for her "possessing three planetary biospheres" (which isn't the situation) presents.

"The world is very hostile, completely unnatural. The animals thrive by photosynthesis, and the plants prey upon them." She gave Ben and Luke a half-smile. "Keeps you on your toes." "And Abeloth controls everything," Luke surmised. "She does."
-FOTJ: Allies

As for the Mortis Gods being stated to be inferior to the Maw or Centerpoint station, the statement given to prove that doesn't support that at all. Two things, Centerpoint Station is inside the galaxy; Mortis (and therefore The Ones) is (are) completely outside it and the Universe, aside from being a higher plane contingent on the Father's existence as well.
Aside from this, that statement may well be hyperbole. There's a scan saying Palpatine is "the mightiest being who ever lived".

"And what of the Emperor? He was mighty in the Force, perhaps the mightiest being who has ever lived."

Do we now consider DE Palpatine > Mortis Gods?

There is a lot wrong here, so I will break it up in parts.

Abeloth’s Weakening​

The idea that the black holes have no lasting effect is itself baseless, but moreso the whole reason she needs to rejuvenate in the first place is because of her ten of thousands of years of imprisonment. The very first thing she does when breaking free from her prison is seek out beings to feed upon to regain her strength.

Sarasu Taalon meanwhile was pretty explicit described as transforming into a similar type eldritch mess as Abeloth. This happens because they utilized the Celestial vessels without being a Celestial. It doesn’t matter so much which one (or both) is used:

As Taalon continued to drink, he began to look less weary and haggard by the moment. His pupils contracted to tiny pinpoints of light, and Luke realized with a shudder that this would have been his destiny, had he allowed the Mind Walkers to convince him to drink from the Fountain of Power—or bathe in the Pool of Knowledge. There were horrors in the galaxy that transcended all the glories of galactic civilization, evils that had existed before the founding of the first city—and that would remain after the razing of the last.

And you seemed to have missed the implication of Abeloth’s statement. She was not distancing herself from Taalon by saying “Mortals need to feed” she was implying he is no longer mortal and needs different sustenance.

I would recommend just reading the entirety of Vortex Chapter 33 which makes this clear (also that it is very much due to his nature, not some leg injury, that has left him like this), but I will try to condense the relevant quotes:

“You are weak because you have not been feeding,” Abeloth was saying to Taalon. “Mortals need to feed, do they not?” “Of course.” There was impatience in Taalon’s reply, but even more, there was fear. “But I haven’t been able to keep food down since I fell into the Pool of Knowledge. Its water must have been poisonous.” “And your healers cannot find the toxin?” Taalon shook his head. “They’ve run every test known to us.”

When Abeloth did not reply, Taalon continued, “They’ve found nothing.” “Why do you think that is?” Abeloth asked. “You have bathed in the Pool of Knowledge, my child. Is it that you remain truly ignorant of the answer? Or that you are afraid to know it?” Taalon’s brow furrowed, and a look of comprehension and horror slowly came to his eyes. “I … I …” He looked over at Abeloth, his lavender face now so pale it was almost alabaster, then asked, “How?”

Taalon chuckled darkly. “Oh, really? Then I must finish this quickly.” He looked over at Abeloth and smiled. “Before young Skywalker escapes and kills us both.” “No.” Abeloth stepped over to Taalon, standing so close their shoulders touched. “We aren’t done with him.” One of Abeloth’s tentacles slithered up Taalon’s chest. His eyes widened, and his head drew back involuntarily. The tentacle continued to rise, pushing its tip between his lips—and then it began to pulse. Taalon’s expression changed from repulsion to surprise to hunger, and he leaned forward and began to suckle.

As Taalon continued to drink, he began to look less weary and haggard by the moment.

Taalon glanced down at Ben. The thin lines of blood swelled into rivers as the Force net tightened. Ben’s eyes rolled back, and he hissed between his teeth. Taalon grasped the tentacle and began to drink more greedily. “Fear will make you strong,” Abeloth said, encouraging him. “Fear is the food of gods. Drink deeply and you—”

Abeloth’s Avatars​

Abeloth is directly stated fo have her power correlate to the number of avatars she can possess:

She has grown much in power since we discovered her, but each time we kill a part, she is weakened. So there are limits. As she grows stronger, those limits rise. And now she has three bodies.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

While on Abeloth’s prison world she merely controlled/influenced the affected wildlife, in the past she literally was the entire bio-sphere with the landmasses described as:

It was an ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh. Hanging in the sky of each world was a female face with a gaping, fang-filled smile that stretched from one ear to another.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

Centerpoint Station​

The quote substantiating that Centerpoint Station is beyond the Mortis Gods comes directly from a source that is talking about them in detail. The whole reason Centerpoint Station is being highlighted as the greatest power in the galaxy is precisely because it can be used to overpower Abeloth where existing technology could not:

The Killik hives that constructed Centerpoint Station called it Qolaraloq, or The World Puller. However, the Killiks did not design the station, they were working on behalf of two Celestial architects known as the Son and Daughter of Mortis. The purpose of the station was to create a tractor beam analogue powerful enough to move planets, stars, and even black holes from across the galaxy. To accomplish this feat, the Killiks first constructed Centerpoint Station in orbit around Corel, a star with only two outlier planets.

At the same time, other Killik hives built planetary repulsors on habitable worlds. When construction was complete, Centerpoint dragged these worlds through hyperspace with its advanced tractor beam to create the Corellian System. Centerpoint itself, amplified by the additional planetary repulsors, had enough raw power enough to move black holes throughout the galaxy.

The architects had a stepmother of sorts named Abeloth, a being similar, but not quite as powerful as the Celestials. Unfortunately, Abeloth had been driven mad in a bid for power, and for the good of the galaxy, would have to be imprisoned. Since no known prison could hold beings of the architects’ power, the Son and Daughter were forced to construct one. Centerpoint Station was to be the tool that built the prison.

-Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station

Also the Mortis Gods had not yet left to Mortis yet. They still resided in the galaxy, on what would become Abeloth’s prison world. It was only thanks to Abeloth’s betrayal and subsequent imprisonment that they were forced to relocate to Mortis.

Meanwhile your Palpatine quote was an in-universe statement made by Arden Lyn who knows nothing of the Mortis Gods and even caveats it with a “perhaps”.

 

[Xavis10]

What about the Beyond Shadows scaling?

Neutral as of now; Beyond Shadows is very complex, not very linear in how it works, I'll think it over soon.

The idea that the black holes have no lasting effect is itself baseless, but moreso the whole reason she needs to rejuvenate in the first place is because of her ten of thousands of years of imprisonment. The very first thing she does when breaking free from her prison is seek out beings to feed upon to regain her strength.​

Again, rejuvenation ≠ power. Furthermore, your own statement highlights
black holes as being "cessations outside of life". What facet of the Force do most force users, Mortis Gods included, draw upon? The Living Force. What is said facet contingent on? Life, obviously. It makes complete sense that the many black holes there would hinder her power while in the Maw, precisely because they are a natural animosity to life. Once she's out of the Maw, she no longer has that hindrance, there are no more black holes.

(Apologies for the text in bold, I'm replying in mobile and must have clicked somewhere I didn't notice)

Sarasu Taalon meanwhile was pretty explicit described as transforming into a similar type eldritch mess as Abeloth. This happens because they utilized the Celestial vessels without being a Celestial. It doesn’t matter so much which one (or both) is used:

Was transforming, didn't actually transform. The statements themselves highlight she didn't fully transform because he didn't drink from the Well of Power.

And you seemed to have missed the implication of Abeloth’s statement. She was not distancing herself from Taalon by saying “Mortals need to feed” she was implying he is no longer mortal and needs different sustenance.

"You mortals need to feed, do you not?" She's clearly saying he's still a mortal. Sure, he may be able to have a different type of sustenance because of his partial transformation, but she still blatantly highlights Sarasu as a mortal in that moment.

Abeloth’s Avatars​

Abeloth is directly stated fo have her power correlate to the number of avatars she can possess:

"As she grows stronger, those limits rise." This doesn't really correlate to the number of avatars.

While on Abeloth’s prison world she merely controlled/influenced the affected wildlife, in the past three world she literally was the entire bio-sphere with the landmasses described as:

The issue is that it never says she controlled the full biospheres, as you are implying (unless I'm interpreting you incorrectly?). Besides, those aren't necessarily avatars of hers, she could have just altered the landmasses.

Centerpoint Station​

The quote substantiating that Centerpoint Station is beyond the Mortis Gods comes directly from a source that is talking about them in detail. The whole reason Centerpoint Station is being highlighted as the greatest power in the galaxy is precisely because it can be used to overpower Abeloth where existing technology could not:

Because of the black holes, which, again, are hindrances to Force Users.

Also the Mortis Gods had not yet left to Mortis yet. They still resided in the galaxy, on what would become Abeloth’s prison world. It was only thanks to Abeloth’s betrayal and subsequent imprisonment that they were forced to relocate to Mortis.

That still doesn't prove they are inferior to Centerpoint Station, as they still made Mortis and fully control it. Besides, the Father directly states they retreated to Mortis because the Son and Daughter could "tear the universe asunder", it's never stated as being a consequence of Belot turning into Abeloth.

Meanwhile your Palpatine quote was an in-universe statement made by Arden Lyn who knows nothing of the Mortis Gods and even caveats it with a “perhaps”.

Fair.

 

[Epyriel]

Again, rejuvenation ≠ power. Furthermore, your own statement highlights
black holes as being "cessations outside of life". What facet of the Force do most force users, Mortis Gods included, draw upon? The Living Force. What is said facet contingent on? Life, obviously. It makes complete sense that the many black holes there would hinder her power while in the Maw, precisely because they are a natural animosity to life. Once she's out of the Maw, she no longer has that hindrance, there are no more black holes.

The text highlights multiple times her solitude and isolation as a key point, and Abeloth herself mentions how feeding on the fear and life force of Mortals recovers strength. It is not her merely healing from some perceived injury, she is literally restoring her power.

The reason you need to spitball how exactly black holes weakening Force users work is precisely because it is never highlighted as the primary factor weakening Abeloth. Luke and Sarasu Taalon’s teams were not noticeably weakened by their stay in the Maw, and even the children staying there for years and years only suffered mild effects.

Her prior breakouts were based on a swelling of fear, chaos and conflict across the galaxy that strengthened her enough to escape. This seems a lot less like the black holes nerfing her rather than just their gravitational force keeping her at bay.

Was transforming, didn't actually transform. The statements themselves highlight she didn't fully transform because he didn't drink from the Well of Power.

"You mortals need to feed, do you not?" She's clearly saying he's still a mortal. Sure, he may be able to have a different type of sustenance because of his partial transformation, but she still blatantly highlights Sarasu as a mortal in that moment.

I really don’t see how you can claim that if you read the chapter or even just the quotes I posted above. She specifically states how the mortal food won’t work for him and he needs the food of the Gods, not that Gods don’t need to eat.

"As she grows stronger, those limits rise." This doesn't really correlate to the number of avatars.

Yes it does, the full quote literally states the number of avatars in relation to it.

The issue is that it never says she controlled the full biospheres, as you are implying (unless I'm interpreting you incorrectly?). Besides, those aren't necessarily avatars of hers, she could have just altered the landmasses.

It describes the entire landmass as fleshy growths just like Abeloth and details her face hanging over the sky of all 3 worlds. The intent is very clear here.

Because of the black holes, which, again, are hindrances to Force Users.

No, not just because of the black holes. It is straight up just called the greatest power in the galaxy.

That still doesn't prove they are inferior to Centerpoint Station, as they still made Mortis and fully control it. Besides, the Father directly states they retreated to Mortis because the Son and Daughter could "tear the universe asunder", it's never stated as being a consequence of Belot turning into Abeloth.

Where does it state they made Mortis??

And prior to 100,000 BBY the Ones all lived on what would later become Abeloth’s planet. It is only after they convert it into a prison that they leave and some time later go to Mortis, regardless of the reason.

 

[FinePoint]

I'm not really knowledgeable enough to be confident on the scaling here, but Lephyr seems to make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Epyriel]

I'm not really knowledgeable enough to be confident on the scaling here, but Lephyr seems to make a lot of sense to me.

Should I mark you down as the same votes for everything?

 

[FinePoint]

Should I mark you down as the same votes for everything?

Yes.

 

[Epyriel]

Alright, seems the Krayt section has been rejected and the rest accepted. Since grace has passed I’ll apply the changes in a bit.
Seems Krayt’s scaling is doomed to forever be cooked

 

[OTG0001]

Since Xavis already posted, i'll mesh together my original response and a contention to Epyriel's Reply.

The Beyond Shadows scaling should be pretty self-evident, don't disagree there, don't think Xavis does as well.


Centerpoint and the Maw:

The main issue I have with Solar-System Level being the pinnacle of Abeloth's telekinetic abilities is due to the fact that the literal thing that enables her to produce any feats of note (The Living Force) is noticeably absent/significantly less powerful in the presence of black holes, which as per the quote you provided, is a cessation of life, and sucks said energies into the singularity. This means her inability to escape is not due to her lack of Force Power, or lack of telekinetic ability, but because she's being actively de-powered by the Black Holes. You're essentially using a depowered version of a character and attempting to equate it to their full power, which is not at all the case. In any case, Her inability to escape the maw should not restrict her to Solar-System level, and should just be labeled as a weakness akin to something like kryptonite.

In regards to Centerpoint, the Ones not being able to move black holes on their own should also follow the same logic, even disregarding the fact that Centerpoint was a necessity to keep Abeloth in check during the absence of the Ones.

The quote substantiating that Centerpoint Station is beyond the Mortis Gods comes directly from a source that is talking about them in detail. The whole reason Centerpoint Station is being highlighted as the greatest power in the galaxy is precisely because it can be used to overpower Abeloth where existing technology could not:

The quote specifically mentions the comparison between different forces in the galaxy and is comparing superweapons. Characters shouldn't be factored into a discussion about superweapons or forces, and even if the Ones were somehow included, they are fundamental aspects of the Force, the thing directly cited to be above Centerpoint.

The first quote is also a out-of-universe statement which seems to be a general overview on Centerpoint, the only way you can disregard the fact that the Ones were out of the galaxy (and hence the quote wouldn't apply) is to assume that the quote is referring to the Ones when they were in the galaxy, which holds no basis and is a assumption.

The second quote doesn't magically make the first statement be in reference to that specific time-period, since a passage can transition from a general overview to a more specific retelling. The second quote also doesn't prove anything of note.

Also the Mortis Gods had not yet left to Mortis yet. They still resided in the galaxy, on what would become Abeloth’s prison world. It was only thanks to Abeloth’s betrayal and subsequent imprisonment that they were forced to relocate to Mortis.

To say that Centerpoint even being a thing is indicative of the Ones' power is missing the purpose of the station to begin with. The Ones could not reside in the galaxy; the Son and Daughter are at constant odds with one another, and would have torn the universe apart if they remained in the galaxy. Hence why Mortis is a prison:

"My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other. Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites."

"As a sanctuary?"

"And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."
-

"Long ago, the Ones withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their Force powers."

It was NECESSARY to withdraw from the Galaxy. We can then infer that Centerpoint is not present because of the Ones' own inability, but because the Ones' are not supposed to be in the universe for however many thousands of years. It is not possible for the Ones to hold the Maw together when they are absent.

Also to claim they are simply Solar System Level with Outerversal E.D. is to ignore quite a few accolades which paint a different picture. I know you cited the Great Hyperspace Barrier as being an example of this, and the escape to a higher plane, which I will provide/address.

For one, there is no meaningful distinction between the Celestials and the Ones. The only distinction is that "The Ones are what Celestials Become" which does not imply a power gap at all. On the contrary, I think it implies a Power Jump. I'll send the statements, but we know that the Ones are fundamental aspects of the Force, the Light, Dark, and Balance, which are much greater accolades than what the Celestials get.

"It is only here that I can control them. A family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction, replaced by creation."
-
"The Son embodies the dark side and is opposed by his light-side sister, the Daughter, while the Father keeps his struggling children in balance."
-
"The incarnation of the light side of the Force, the Daughter serves as a suppressor on the Son, thwarting his efforts to escape from Mortis and battling him for dominance."
-
"The personification of the dark side, the Son plots to kill the Father, and is held in check only by the Daughter and the Father's determination to preserve the Balance."
-
"The three all powerful beings of Mortis can assume strange shapes and exemplify the dark side, the light side, and the principle of balance."
-
"As the Daughter dies, the Force beings to fall out of balance. Using her last strength, the Daughter serves as a channel for the Force, releasing her ebbing life energies to revive Ahsoka and remove the dark side's stain."
https://media.**********.net/attach...d518e89c50adefc588fd1729d7e16cd&=&format=webp

All of these point to them being the respective aspects of the Living Force, which exists on a similar level as Mortis. The fact that the death of one of them was able to throw the Living Force out of balance suggests they are very important parts of such, which implies they have some power on the 7th-Dimensional Level. This is further reinforced by the fact that Mortis' existence is inexplicably linked to the Father:

As you can see, Mortis collapsed when the Father died. From this we can infer that Mortis was created by, or is linked to the Father, which is a 7D structure. I'm not sure of the creation feat standards on VSBW, so take that as you will.

Abeloth's weakening and her avatars:

While on Abeloth’s prison world she merely controlled/influenced the affected wildlife, in the past three world she literally was the entire bio-sphere with the landmasses described as:

It was an ocean world with flocks of seabirds hovering over floating islands of moldy flesh. Hanging in the sky of each world was a female face with a gaping, fang-filled smile that stretched from one ear to another.

-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

There's a couple problems in this scan, and I'll address the first 2 planets as well, but nothing suggests she possessed the first two planets as biospheres, they only mention her possessing plants and animals, similar to what she did in the world at the maw (while also depowered mind you), as for the last one, the highlighted part in the quote doesn't really mean anything, "floating islands of moldy flesh" can just imply there are many clumps of floating flesh, not that there are literally island-sized. Island can be used to describe anything that somewhat sizable within a body of water. Also nothing here suggests that these islands are under her possession. The best you have for her being stronger within this scan is her face hanging in the sky, but size does not equate to power, and from a humans perspective something covering the sky can simply be around 10 or 20 kilometers. Even so, this doesn't indicate possession at all, and honestly her showings in FOTJ on coruscant are better feats (probably because the suffering of that many people empowered her!)

Wookiepedia also states this about Abeloth's Planet, I don't have the scan, but if it re-surfaces then this helps defeat you argument even more:

"The carnivorousness of the plants, the tremors, and the volcanic rumbling of the world ceased upon Abeloth's departure."

In regards to her weakening, how do we ascertain how much she grew weaker? if my arguments are true, it certainly doesn't seem like much of a meaningful gap. The many tens of thousands of years were riddled with a few breakouts where she could regain some power.

In regards to Taalon's transformation being indicative of how much Abeloth weakened:

As Taalon continued to drink, he began to look less weary and haggard by the moment. His pupils contracted to tiny pinpoints of light, and Luke realized with a shudder that this would have been his destiny, had he allowed the Mind Walkers to convince him to drink from the Fountain of Power—or bathe in the Pool of Knowledge. There were horrors in the galaxy that transcended all the glories of galactic civilization, evils that had existed before the founding of the first city—and that would remain after the razing of the last.

"Began to look less weary and haggard" implies he's being actively powered, not the other way around. You also didn't address that Taalon is missing the other half of the Abeloth equation, the Font of Power, which could explain why the other statements show him having somewhat of a lapse of power.

I would recommend just reading the entirety of Vortex Chapter 33 which makes this clear (also that it is very much due to his nature, not some leg injury, that has left him like this), but I will try to condense the relevant quotes:

The only quote that even remotely suggests what you're saying is the first one. The leg injury example was moreso to address the reason why he was defeated by Ben and Vestara, because it hindered the Force Jump, which then in turn made him vulnerable. Ben and Vestara defeating him hence doesn't mean that he literally got depowered to their level.

 

[Xavis10]

Addendum: I agree with the Beyond Shadows scaling.

Was gonna write another reply, but OTG covered everything.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Alright, seems the Krayt section has been rejected and the rest accepted. Since grace has passed I’ll apply the changes in a bit.
Seems Krayt’s scaling is doomed to forever be cooked

Wait a bit, I am writing a new comment

 

[OTG0001]

The text highlights multiple times her solitude and isolation as a key point, and Abeloth herself mentions how feeding on the fear and life force of Mortals recovers strength. It is not her merely healing from some perceived injury, she is literally restoring her power.

The reason you need to spitball how exactly black holes weakening Force users work is precisely because it is never highlighted as the primary factor weakening Abeloth. Luke and Sarasu Taalon’s teams were not noticeably weakened by their stay in the Maw, and even the children staying there for years and years only suffered mild effects.

Her prior breakouts were based on a swelling of fear, chaos and conflict across the galaxy that strengthened her enough to escape. This seems a lot less like the black holes nerfing her rather than just their gravitational force keeping her at bay.


I really don’t see how you can claim that if you read the chapter or even just the quotes I posted above. She specifically states how the mortal food won’t work for him and he needs the food of the Gods, not that Gods don’t need to eat.


Yes it does, the full quote literally states the number of avatars in relation to it.


It describes the entire landmass as fleshy growths just like Abeloth and details her face hanging over the sky of all 3 worlds. The intent is very clear here.


No, not just because of the black holes. It is straight up just called the greatest power in the galaxy.


Where does it state they made Mortis??

And prior to 100,000 BBY the Ones all lived on what would later become Abeloth’s planet. It is only after they convert it into a prison that they leave and some time later go to Mortis, regardless of the reason.

Her need to feed on the life force of mortals precisely paints a picture on how she was weakened by Black Holes. If the Black Holes had no noticeable effect like you claim, she would have no need to regain life force (which is connected to the living force, something eaten by the Black Holes) and would only have to feed on fear. Also, in regards to other force users not being as depowered, there is a very substantial time difference and distance difference.


I don't see how her breakouts being based on galactic turmoil invalidates the Black Hole argument.

No, nowhere does it say a landmass of fleshy growths exist that are linked to Abeloth. It just said there are islands of flesh. Let's not make up things the text does not say.

The sky argument I already addressed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Upon further reflection and research, I now vehemently disagree with capping The Ones to the power displayed by Centerpoint Station. (Edit after reading the comments, glad to see OTG0001 also touched on this)

The Father explains (1:16) the following:

"My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other. Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites. (...) You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

So quite immediately, Centerpoint Station is inferior to them. This quote comes directly from a main source, and should take precedence over the article calling Centerpoint Station the most powerful. The Ultimate Visual Guide Updated and Expanded also corroborates it:

Long ago, the Ones withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their Force powers.

(Unfortunately, I don't have access to this document, so the best I could fine is the following video review showing the pages; you can (barely) read the quote at 4:25)
In fact, it makes sense in-universe too, as Centerpoint Station was still in the Galaxy, when the Mortis Gods needed to withdraw from the universe, proving their superiority even before reaching Mortis.

In fact, the same article used here (to which I now call its usage as a proper canonical source into question, seeing as the writer is far from a proper authority) directly says this:

The architects had a stepmother of sorts named Abeloth, a being similar, but not quite as powerful as the Celestials. Unfortunately, Abeloth had been driven mad in a bid for power, and for the good of the galaxy, would have to be imprisoned. Since no known prison could hold beings of the architects’ power, the Son and Daughter were forced to construct one. Centerpoint Station was to be the tool that built the prison.

What this actually suggests is Centerpoint Station simply having the power to construct a prison able to hold a Celestial (and Abeloth herself directly stated "not quite as powerful" as them), which is not a true comparison of power between them. At best, Centerpoint Station would simply downscale, as the Mortis episodes clearly establish the Son and Daughter as too powerful to be left in the universe (establishing their superiority).

-

Overall? I would disregard the article almost entirely anyways, under our canonicity rules:

The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon.

When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon.

Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them. It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

In addition a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material. When other source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that contradict the tertiary canon in the depiction of the feat, the others take precedence. And here as well, if the feat is correctly depicted over multiple canons any of these can be used to judge the feat. Should by judging the feat through primary or secondary canon a different result be reached than for tertiary canon the result of primary or secondary canon will have priority.

I venture to say, this article barely passes as canon, simply because it was published on the official Star Wars website. However, it would be tertiary canon at best under our rules, and thus any proper guide and the direct source (the tv show and the novels, in this case) trump it completely. Only the sections that don't actually contradict the source should be taken, and calling Centerpoint Station the most powerful in the galaxy is definitely one of those that is directly contradicted in the source, as shown above.

Edit: @FinePoint @LordTracer since my views have been updated, you are needed to evaluate once again.

 

[FinePoint]

Edit: @FinePoint @LordTracer since my views have been updated, you are needed to evaluate once again.

Well, I'll wait to see if someone else wants to weigh in on the canonicity first.

 

[OTG0001]

@LephyrTheRevanchist What's your opinion on the rest of the contended stuff?

 

[Epyriel]

Guys please chill, I can only type so fast, and there are a lot of erroneous claims being thrown around.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Where does it state they made Mortis??

For reference, here:

These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.

(suggesting their struggles is what made Mortis depending how you read it)
Though I personally wouldn't use it, as the Databank was written in 2014, after the disney buy, thus it might not apply to Legends continuity (which is why I didn't include it in my own arguments). I am unable to verify if the databank can be applied to Legends too, but wookiepedia at least doesn't cite it as a source for the Legends article of Mortis or The Ones.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LephyrTheRevanchist What's your opinion on the rest of the contended stuff?

I will wait for Epyriel's comment before giving my final thoughts on that.

 

[Epyriel]

Upon further reflection and research, I now vehemently disagree with capping The Ones to the power displayed by Centerpoint Station. (Edit after reading the comments, glad to see OTG0001 also touched on this)

The Father explains (1:16) the following:

So quite immediately, Centerpoint Station is inferior to them. This quote comes directly from a main source, and should take precedence over the article calling Centerpoint Station the most powerful. The Ultimate Visual Guide Updated and Expanded also corroborates it:

(Unfortunately, I don't have access to this document, so the best I could fine is the following video review showing the pages; you can (barely) read the quote at 4:25)
In fact, it makes sense in-universe too, as Centerpoint Station was still in the Galaxy, when the Mortis Gods needed to withdraw from the universe, proving their superiority even before reaching Mortis.

In fact, the same article used here (to which I now call its usage as a proper canonical source into question, seeing as the writer is far from a proper authority) directly says this:

What this actually suggests is Centerpoint Station simply having the power to construct a prison able to hold a Celestial (and Abeloth herself directly stated "not quite as powerful" as them), which is not a true comparison of power between them. At best, Centerpoint Station would simply downscale, as the Mortis episodes clearly establish the Son and Daughter as too powerful to be left in the universe (establishing their superiority).

I am not sure why the Son and Daughter needing to withdraw form the galaxy is supposed to imply them to be superior to everything within it. The entire point of the Father’s monologue is that he is concerned that the Son and Daughter’s could be exploited to tip the balance of the Force by factions like the Sith, and this does not relate to their raw telekinetic abilities.

The fact that the gravitational pull of a few dozens of black holes can prevent Abeloth’s escape is itself a cap at Multi-Solar System level, and as I will get to in reply to OTG’s post, you cannot get around this by claiming they simply turn of Force powers.

Overall? I would disregard the article almost entirely anyways, under our canonicity rules:

I venture to say, this article barely passes as canon, simply because it was published on the official Star Wars website. However, it would be tertiary canon at best under our rules, and thus any proper guide and the direct source (the tv show and the novels, in this case) trump it completely. Only the sections that don't actually contradict the source should be taken, and calling Centerpoint Station the most powerful in the galaxy is definitely one of those that is directly contradicted in the source, as shown above.

Edit: @FinePoint @LordTracer since my views have been updated, you are needed to evaluate once again.

VSBW’s policy is to defer to the actual media owner’s categorization of canon where possible, and StarWars.com articles like this one have repeatedly been upheld as C-Canon under LFL policy.

 

[Epyriel]

For reference, here:
(suggesting their struggles is what made Mortis depending how you read it)
Though I personally wouldn't use it, as the Databank was written in 2014, after the disney buy, thus it might not apply to Legends continuity (which is why I didn't include it in my own arguments). I am unable to verify if the databank can be applied to Legends too, but wookiepedia at least doesn't cite it as a source for the Legends article of Mortis or The Ones.

Yeah that is the new Databank which is a Canon source, not the old Legends Databank. And even there that just establishes that they turned Mortis into the vergence we see in TCW, not that they created the realm (and in Legends we explicitly get the fact that the Mortis Monolith was unaffected by their deaths).

 

[OTG0001]

I am not sure why the Son and Daughter needing to withdraw form the galaxy is supposed to imply them to be superior to everything within it. The entire point of the Father’s monologue is that he is concerned that the Son and Daughter’s could be exploited to tip the balance of the Force by factions like the Sith, and this does not relate to their raw telekinetic abilities.

The fact that the gravitational pull of a few dozens of black holes can prevent Abeloth’s escape is itself a cap at Multi-Solar System level, and as I will get to in reply to OTG’s post, you cannot get around this by claiming they simply turn of Force powers.


VSBW’s policy is to defer to the actual media owner’s categorization of canon where possible, and StarWars.com articles like this one have repeatedly been upheld as C-Canon under LFL policy.

Won't contend anything here, but it would be helpful for you to send a explanation on WHY the tearing universe asunder thing is not referring to TK and instead referring to the thing you said.

While you're at it also send where it does say the article is C-Canon (not that it changes much, TCW is T-Canon)

Also send the statement saying that Mortis was unaffected by their deaths.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

StarWars.com articles like this one have repeatedly been upheld as C-Canon under LFL policy.

Citation needed

I am not sure why the Son and Daughter needing to withdraw form the galaxy is supposed to imply them to be superior to everything within it. The entire point of the Father’s monologue is that he is concerned that the Son and Daughter’s could be exploited to tip the balance of the Force by factions like the Sith, and this does not relate to their raw telekinetic abilities.

"You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

It's quite clear to me, their manipulation of the Force made them retreat outside the universe, which he then equals to AP by saying they could tear the fabric of the universe. It's unironically very straightforward.

 

[Epyriel]

Centerpoint and the Maw:

The main issue I have with Solar-System Level being the pinnacle of Abeloth's telekinetic abilities is due to the fact that the literal thing that enables her to produce any feats of note (The Living Force) is noticeably absent/significantly less powerful in the presence of black holes, which as per the quote you provided, is a cessation of life, and sucks said energies into the singularity. This means her inability to escape is not due to her lack of Force Power, or lack of telekinetic ability, but because she's being actively de-powered by the Black Holes. You're essentially using a depowered version of a character and attempting to equate it to their full power, which is not at all the case. In any case, Her inability to escape the maw should not restrict her to Solar-System level, and should just be labeled as a weakness akin to something like kryptonite.

In regards to Centerpoint, the Ones not being able to move black holes on their own should also follow the same logic, even disregarding the fact that Centerpoint was a necessity to keep Abeloth in check during the absence of the Ones.

Quantify that.
Because in every description and every actual feat we see, the effect of the black holes is minimal. The entire army of Sith and Jedi in FotJ: Allies suffer no ill effects from being in the center of the Maw, even in a large scale battle. Even the Force sensitive children who lived on the station in the center of the cluster of black holes suffered only very mild consequences across years of living there.

And yet for this argument to work, you would need the black holes to basically turn off the powers of gods entirely.

And yet Abeloth’s powers in Allies while fighting at the center of dozens of black holes was actually stronger than on Pydyr in Vortex while recovering from her wounds while completely outside the effect of the black holes.

The quote specifically mentions the comparison between different forces in the galaxy and is comparing superweapons. Characters shouldn't be factored into a discussion about superweapons or forces, and even if the Ones were somehow included, they are fundamental aspects of the Force, the thing directly cited to be above Centerpoint.

The first quote is also a out-of-universe statement which seems to be a general overview on Centerpoint, the only way you can disregard the fact that the Ones were out of the galaxy (and hence the quote wouldn't apply) is to assume that the quote is referring to the Ones when they were in the galaxy, which holds no basis and is a assumption.

The entire point of the article is that the Mortis Gods need something to be able to construct a prison for Abeloth that they cannot accomplish on their own, and was sufficiently powerful to prevent Abeloth’s escape with the gravitational array of black holes long term. Even on previous breakouts, Abeloth was unable to destroy the station.

The second quote doesn't magically make the first statement be in reference to that specific time-period, since a passage can transition from a general overview to a more specific retelling. The second quote also doesn't prove anything of note.

To say that Centerpoint even being a thing is indicative of the Ones' power is missing the purpose of the station to begin with. The Ones could not reside in the galaxy; the Son and Daughter are at constant odds with one another, and would have torn the universe apart if they remained in the galaxy. Hence why Mortis is a prison:

It was NECESSARY to withdraw from the Galaxy. We can then infer that Centerpoint is not present because of the Ones' own inability, but because the Ones' are not supposed to be in the universe for however many thousands of years. It is not possible for the Ones to hold the Maw together when they are absent.

This also misses the point of the entire backstory of the Mortis Gods in Apocalypse that describe the fact that they were livign in harmony within the galaxy for a long time up to this point. They hadn’t even found Mortis yet. They hadn't withdrawn from the galaxy yet.

And sure, they want an automatic system to maintain the prison, but that doesn’t escape the fact that the prison itself was something they needed technological help to build and was sufficiently powerful to prevent Abeloth’s escape on its own as highlighted above.

Also to claim they are simply Solar System Level with Outerversal E.D. is to ignore quite a few accolades which paint a different picture. I know you cited the Great Hyperspace Barrier as being an example of this, and the escape to a higher plane, which I will provide/address.

For one, there is no meaningful distinction between the Celestials and the Ones. The only distinction is that "The Ones are what Celestials Become" which does not imply a power gap at all. On the contrary, I think it implies a Power Jump. I'll send the statements, but we know that the Ones are fundamental aspects of the Force, the Light, Dark, and Balance, which are much greater accolades than what the Celestials get.

An entire civilization working together for a significant amount of time on a galactic project doesn’t scale to the Ones simply because they are above individual Celestials.

All of these point to them being the respective aspects of the Living Force, which exists on a similar level as Mortis. The fact that the death of one of them was able to throw the Living Force out of balance suggests they are very important parts of such, which implies they have some power on the 7th-Dimensional Level. This is further reinforced by the fact that Mortis' existence is inexplicably linked to the Father:

As you can see, Mortis collapsed when the Father died. From this we can infer that Mortis was created by, or is linked to the Father, which is a 7D structure. I'm not sure of the creation feat standards on VSBW, so take that as you will.

All of this is in line with ED, but beyond that, the idea that Mortis is 7D is baseless. That comes from a quote referring to a possible explanation to the disappearance of the civilization of the Celestials thousands of years after the Mortis Gods retreated to Mortis.

Abeloth's weakening and her avatars:

There's a couple problems in this scan, and I'll address the first 2 planets as well, but nothing suggests she possessed the first two planets as biospheres, they only mention her possessing plants and animals, similar to what she did in the world at the maw (while also depowered mind you), as for the last one, the highlighted part in the quote doesn't really mean anything, "floating islands of moldy flesh" can just imply there are many clumps of floating flesh, not that there are literally island-sized. Island can be used to describe anything that somewhat sizable within a body of water. Also nothing here suggests that these islands are under her possession. The best you have for her being stronger within this scan is her face hanging in the sky, but size does not equate to power, and from a humans perspective something covering the sky can simply be around 10 or 20 kilometers. Even so, this doesn't indicate possession at all, and honestly her showings in FOTJ on coruscant are better feats (probably because the suffering of that many people empowered her!)

Wookiepedia also states this about Abeloth's Planet, I don't have the scan, but if it re-surfaces then this helps defeat you argument even more:

"The carnivorousness of the plants, the tremors, and the volcanic rumbling of the world ceased upon Abeloth's departure."

The growths are described similarly to descriptions of Abeloth herself and have her face covering the sky of each world. The intent here is very clear.

In regards to her weakening, how do we ascertain how much she grew weaker? if my arguments are true, it certainly doesn't seem like much of a meaningful gap. The many tens of thousands of years were riddled with a few breakouts where she could regain some power.

In regards to Taalon's transformation being indicative of how much Abeloth weakened:

"Began to look less weary and haggard" implies he's being actively powered, not the other way around. You also didn't address that Taalon is missing the other half of the Abeloth equation, the Font of Power, which could explain why the other statements show him having somewhat of a lapse of power.

The only quote that even remotely suggests what you're saying is the first one. The leg injury example was moreso to address the reason why he was defeated by Ben and Vestara, because it hindered the Force Jump, which then in turn made him vulnerable. Ben and Vestara defeating him hence doesn't mean that he literally got depowered to their level.

Abeloth spent tens of thousands of years isolated and unable to feed which she directly attributes to her power, after having been defeated by the Son and Daughter (with the deaths of her avatars explicitly weakening her).

The fact that Taalon is missing the Font is irrelevant. I am not claiming Taalon is as strong as Abeloth, I am pointing out the shared mechanism for how their power works which Abeloth repeatedly upholds all throughout Vortex.

A lack of feeding weakens them, and feeding on the fear and life Force of people strengthens them.

And the fact Taalon had an injured leg doesn’t affect his Force powers, and yet near the end he was legitimately struggling against the likes of Vestara Khai despite her being a fingerflick gap below Luke and Taalon previously being a giant threat to Luke himself.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah that is the new Databank which is a Canon source, not the old Legends Databank.

Update: I was given awareness of the the following which would indeed put the article before the disney buy (based on the date of archival).

And even there that just establishes that they turned Mortis into the vergence we see in TCW, not that they created the realm

So now that I can actually answer this: While ambiguous on literal creation, the following:

These god-like beings were locked in an eternal struggle for dominance, which made Mortis the fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force.

Would still fit with the significantly affecting definition of our tiering system, thus an applicable AP feat.

Their sustaining the realm or not is of lesser import imo, as their struggle in the end still turned the place into the "fulcrum of the entire galaxy and the Force" (which then we are given an explanation in the episode, with Obi-Wan stating: "The Planet is the Force")

Sadly we will more than likely disagree with the interpretation, but that's fine with me

 

[Epyriel]

Won't contend anything here, but it would be helpful for you to send a explanation on WHY the tearing universe asunder thing is not referring to TK and instead referring to the thing you said.

"You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

It's quite clear to me, their manipulation of the Force made them retreat outside the universe, which he then equals to AP by saying they could tear the fabric of the universe. It's unironically very straightforward.

The quote is not “tearing the universe asunder” but rather tearing at the “fabric of our universe” which doesn’t equate to destroying the universe. More importantly, the entire monologue given by the Father in the clone wars details how the Son and Daughter can influence the very balance of the Force and his concern that such may be exploited by some to wreck havok. This is the reasoning he gives for their withdrawal. If the concern is on lesser beings exploiting Gods and the balance of the Force, then it wouldn’t really be a matter of them destroying the universe via TK on accident.

While you're at it also send where it does say the article is C-Canon (not that it changes much, TCW is T-Canon)

Citation needed

SW.com articles go through editorial review and as such are C-Canon by default as per LFL’s standard policy on C-Canon (basically anything official that goes through review that doesn’t qualify as S or N-Canon goes here). I believe Chee said as much before as well, but I can’t find that quote at the moment.

Also send the statement saying that Mortis was unaffected by their deaths.

Luke read the mission reports from the Mortis mission and believed the monolith to remain and sent out teams to find it, with one such team finding a matching monolith in Crucible.

 

[Xavis10]

Luke read the mission reports from the Mortis mission and believed the monolith to remain and sent out teams to find it, with one such team finding a matching monolith in Crucible.

No. Luke thought it may still exist, but he didn't have any certainties.

You can find that here.

 

[Epyriel]

No. Luke thought it may still exist, but he didn't have any certainties.

You can find that here.

Fair enough, we shall leave that as a maybe.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

SW.com articles go through editorial review and as such are C-Canon by default as per LFL’s standard policy on C-Canon (basically anything official that goes through review that doesn’t qualify as S or N-Canon goes here).

"At the time" is insanely important there. When was that tweet written, and what was the exact question being answered? Keep in mind, it's still below the canonicity of The Clone Wars directly, so it would still be a contradiction to call Centerpoint Station the most powerful.

My final thoughts: Disagree with the Krayt scaling and the Centerpoint Station stuff. I've given my thoughts on the matter. So if the Ones end up as fully 1-A based on their effects on Beyond Shadows, welp otherwise no change is needed to their profiles at the moment.

In regards to Abeloth being weakened, I would still agree overall anyways. I do believe it's very explicit how she got weakened, and don't find the black hole stuff as convincing enough otherwise.

We shall see what the rest of the staff think.