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Battle cats revival
- Thread starter Acertainbcplayer
- Start date
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- #42
I would want your answer regarding Babel vs Zero World as mentioned. For Babel, surpassing dimensions (with him being a Legend Rare), would put him at 5-D space (where Gaia would also enhance that idea), while Zero World transcends dimensions. So if we were to put Zero World into the scaling chain, would it be 6-D space and 1-D time or would it not?
Obviously if we're separating Zero World out of the scaling then it would be only a "possibly Low 1-A" medal for the verse, or maybe not even a rating for it.
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- #43
@ActuallySpaceMan42 Aside from the cosmology, do you agree with the explanation page for the verse? And of course the higher-dimensional existence with 7D-11D rating for Sages will be fixed accordingly at the end of the cosmology debate.
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I'm fine with Possibly Low 1-A for Zero World if it doesn't scale directly to anyone who doesn't affect the entire thing.
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- #45
Alright, so you agree with separating Zero World as a separate Low 1-A, yes?
Now then, because "far higher dimension" for Soractes and "superdimension" for Izanagi and such are already solid enough for at least 6-D space-time ("far higher dimension" should be at least the 5th dimension or it wouldn't make narrative sense), we need to give this a suitable rating first. Because again, Babel and Gaia still has the extra-dimensional crystal as well as Zero World containing extra-dimensional materials, I should not assume that it's above the edge of spacetime anymore, instead this is what I propose:
Zero Legend (currently) should scale to the high ranking sages (which are all 5-D beings like mentioned), so 6-D spacetime. Cat God who transcended space and time (of which the edge of spacetime are proven to exists on the same level as the current Zero Legend) should be 7-D, Izanagi and Izanami preferable should be placed here too since they should predates all there is. Gaia and babel should still be 5-D as originally proposed, and we won't have to layer dimensions for the Zero World anymore, every beings on there will be 5-D beings with 2-A rating unless can significantly affect said world.
What do you think?
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That all sounds much more reasonable to me- but why 2-A instead of 1-C?
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- #47
You mean Low 1-C? Uh... I thought you need to significantly affect said structure to qualify for a tier corresponding to said *th dimension? Or am I getting something wrong?
I mean, god-like beings like Babel, Gaia, Cat God, Izanagi/Izanami or Metafilibuster will still get the full Low 1-C and 1-C rating, but common beings on the Zero World shouldn't (well, unless Newton's Immeasurable Power (JP ver is clearer) actually qualifies for something).
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Alright, that seems fine then. I was just clarifying.
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- #49
Should I count for vote as agree on this one then?
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Sure.
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- #51
Ah, I should ask you this also. For the high ranking sages, should they only be 2-A for now or Low 1-C?
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I think they can be Low 1-C.
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- #53
Next is 1 more important thing. Acausality Type 4 for all Zero Legend beings. Do existing in a kind of temporal-chaos qualify for that, if time = causality (proven by chronos)? From the Edge of Spacetime on, the things mentioned in the current cosmology page still applies.
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I suppose, but you should list it as "limited" since it's practically just a technicality (with no showings of being useful.)
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- #55
Alright then, apart from Chronos who straight up has statement (and Zeus who is omnipotent + Gaia + Izanagi and Izanami and Cat God obviously), everyone else should only benefit from "Limited" Acau Type 4.
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Sure, 5D and 6D seem fine, like Point said. The explanation page seemed good to.
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- #57
Finepoint agreed with the new proposal (which I added), is that what you're agreeing with?
Also, do you agree with the profiles too? Of which should've fixed all to fit the current proposal (unless I missed something).
If you agree with everything, then I'll add your vote in. I'll add it for the explanation page first.
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Profiles need work.
You don't get Immeasurable for predating time.
I can't find Gravi, so I would need to see his speed reasoning.
A lot of the abilities are formatted incorrectly or have grammatical errors. I can't point them all out, but Poseidon has 'Type1.' Types aren't formatted with a '.' Use a ':' or '-' or ';' instead.
Everything that doesn't have references needs them.
Predating time doesn't give you Acausality I believe.
Izanagi still says 7-D.
Anyway, I'll recheck the profiles once you're done fixing this stuff.
You don't get Immeasurable for predating time.
I can't find Gravi, so I would need to see his speed reasoning.
A lot of the abilities are formatted incorrectly or have grammatical errors. I can't point them all out, but Poseidon has 'Type1.' Types aren't formatted with a '.' Use a ':' or '-' or ';' instead.
Everything that doesn't have references needs them.
Predating time doesn't give you Acausality I believe.
Izanagi still says 7-D.
Anyway, I'll recheck the profiles once you're done fixing this stuff.
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- #59
Not predating time, but more like transcending time (or the edge of spacetime in this case), pretty sure that would place them outside of linear time.
Ah right I forgot, I moved him to here
So all Type ... Will need to use : instead?
Pretty sure I've added reference to most (instead of notable attack, sure). I'll check again later.
Via Chronos. Chronos the goddess of time transcends all causality (thus at least type 4) and she reigns over all of time, thus connecting time and causality within the verse (unless specified otherwise, cause fate/time/causality is narratively linked), which should give type 4 for her and Zeus/Gaia for also mentioned reasons within their profile. For those on Zero Legend as mentioned above with Finepoint agreeing, they should only be given Limited Acau type 4 for existing in a world with chaotic temporal behaviour.
Which is what Finepoint agreed with, view the head post (which is what I'm asking if you're agreeing with also).
Also I need to mention, verse-specific powers are named and linked to the exact section they're in in the explanation page (in which will list abilities that they will be granted for the ability).
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Not enough
That's not enough for infinite speed. You need a statement of them reaching the other side of the universe, or the end of the universe, or crossing the entire thing. Just traveling through an infinite universe doesn't require infinite speed.
Yeah.
Alot of abilities are missing them.
I was referring to Izanagi and Izanami's reasoning.
Also, being omnipotent and the source of abilities doesn't grant you the abilities of others.
Finepoint agreed to 5D and 6D?
That's fine.
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- #61
What's the requirement then? I mean they didn't come from a void of nothingness either, they are higher dimensional entities who descended from the superdimension after all.
Also cat god transcending time should grant him immeasurable speed at least then?
Traversed the universe, not traverse nor traveling. It seems this is what most people interpreted it as and I don't see much problem with it.
Will go through them again.
I will fix the reasoning soon, then you can check again.
Only abilities of the Almighties (for Zeus he only gains pre-Fruit of Creation abilities for being outright omnipotent, it shouldn't even be a case of NLF either), for Gaia the Fruit of Creation which grants the power of mana of which literally came from her world tree which is her weapon and those same fruits grant the enhanced ability of the Almighties, I don't see why not.
He agreed to the whole text in the head post (which also includes Izanagi and Izanami being 7-D).
@FinePoint I could use your clarification on this one.
Phew... Imagine fixing all of those. Thanks.
Just 1 more mod vote for explanation page and all links should work when I add that page).
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Physically moving through time, such as attacks travelling through time, running across time, and similar actions.
I can have traversed a mountain, but it doesn't mean I climbed to the peak. Also we don't know how long it took so even MFTL+ would be guess work.
This was discussed at length here; https://vsbattles.com/threads/when-...gain-all-of-their-creations-abilities.141568/
NP
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- #63
What about being above time? I mean without time the equation breaks, isn't that what immeasurable speed means? Here it stated:
Immeasurable (Movement unbound from the flow of linear time, which cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined, the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.
and
Timeless Voids, i.e. areas within a setting that lack time or exist outside of the flow of time, cannot be used to grant Infinite speed. One might be tempted to apply Speed = Distance/Time and say that time equals 0 in this situation, thus moving through this type of void should result in Infinite speed. However, in a Timeless Void, time does not exist, making Time = Not Applicable.
So in short, Time = Nonexistent or Not Applicable and Distance/Time = Undefined and cannot be determined under these conditions.
Aren't they the same?
It's not actually guess work, consider the length of the observable universe, Izanagi who has only lived for aeons, the minimum required speed far exceeds MFTL.
The mountain analogy doesn't work, it works for the mountain because the mountain varied in shape (You can dug a tunnel through it and still traversed it), but this is the universe, you don't need to have traveled to every planets in the universe to have traversed the universe, you only need to travel from 1 point to another (most of the time it's talking about the longest straight line, or relatively so or it'd be a misleading narration).
I found the inheritance page already. Gaia's gaining every of the Almighties's abilities is not through the fact that she is a creator god (same reason as Izanagi not having all abilities in the verse), also not just through the fact that she has direct access to Mana, BUT her being the source of the fruits of creation themselves. In Chronos profile (and some other characters), you can find scans of them directly using the fruits themselves to perform mentioned powers or are guided by the fruit in order to perform said power, also in Gaia's profile now (for Anubis at least, I could add in Aphrodite too, she only gained life and death manip fully after obtaining the fruit after all).
I am aware that just being the source of the power system won't grant all of those, but being the source of the power that they used in their True Form would grant her those abilities, and if I have to add clarification about this I will, but I don't think Gaia won't be granted those abilities, especially when she's also at least omniscient like Zeus.
Speaking about Zeus, he not being only omnipotent but omniscience, he knows because he's omniscience and he can do because he's omnipotent. Most of the examples I found in the thread are about characters being only stated "omnipotent" without context, or "the source of all power" without telling exactly what the exact source it is, or just being the source of the power of the power system, not the source of the power themselves nor providing any good proof of the source being able to use said powers (when Gaia can, because the powers derives from Mana, the Fruit guides the user to use it, and Gaia has direct access to mana while also being the source of the Fruits themselves), or character clearly clarifying that they're the source but doesn't know anything about how people use the powers, etc...
The thread is 6 pages long, I might've missed something but I think for the general idea of what it's supposed to be, I think Gaia at least qualifies to have all of the Almighties power, even if it's through the fruit of creation. For Zeus I'll leave it to you to decide whether he should fully qualify, just get a Likely, Possibly or removal of all the powers.
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@FinePoint I would also want your opinion on this, plus the clarification of whether you're actually fine with Izanagi and Izanami being 7-D (as stated in the post that you agreed with above), so ActuallySpaceMan42 could be sure.
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Could you re-post their specific scans for me, please?
As for immeasurable, being above time could work, but do we have any examples of them using their speed to traverse to different points in time?
Explanations of immeasurable speed from higher dimensions can be found here.
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- #66
As Izanagi and Izanami are the same, I'll use Izanagi's scan:
Izanagi is a being of beginning and the prelude of all that ever was, descended from the superdimension
As seen in this link, The Edge of Spacetime is the 2nd sub-chapter of Zero Legend (right after Zero Field, which is a whole new world/world of beginnings(JP))
If Izanagi is the prelude of all that ever was, then the edge of spacetime is one of those. But here is the thing, he and Izanami descended from the superdimension, so being the prelude to the edge of spacetime can't be him existing in a timeless and spaceless void (for now that is), because he descended from a higher plane/superdimension (maybe the Zero World? But that's beyond the point).
We also know Cat God transcended space and time since he was little, so being above the edge of spacetime is entirely possible.
The Edge of Spacetime exists on the same layer as the current "other world", which is 5-D the same as the high ranking sages, so if they are the prelude of all that ever was, who descended from the superdimension, then they would transcend the edge of spacetime making them 7-D.
And I have to also mention, Izanagi and Izanami preludes even Cat God himself, as Cat God didn't exist in the past and is relatively young.
Zeus being omniscient and omnipotent was quite straightforward, the only real limit he has is the ability to outright create a whole new world like Gaia because it's implied that he could only do so after gaining the Fruit - though it did mentioned that he was to create a paradise so I'm not sure - which even Chronos was stuck with only manipulating existing primordial matters
Gaia's scans are like this (as written in her profile currently):
"All of The Almighties's power gained through the Fruit of Creation which are stronger than their normal variant shown in their profiles. It was also stated that the Fruit guided them to use it, or they directly using the fruit itself to perform listed abilities in their profiles. The fruit grants the blessing of Mana and due to possessing the World Tree of all Creation which gives Gaia direct access to the power of Mana (as well as also being the source of The Fruits of Creation which was also hinted at the visual representation of the main flower on her tree which is shown to be visually a 1:1 to the Fruit itself), granting her also the Enhanced version of these abilities plus:"
Gaia being the source of the fruits wasn't directly stated, but heavily implied through the lore. First the power of Mana isn't any of the Almighties's original power source, not after gaining the Fruit of Creation did they have access to it (well if not then we won't have all the "bestowed with the power of mana" and stuff and huge buff and new crazy abilities, like how Aphrodite gained death manip after having gained the fruit). Gaia's sacred treasure is the source of Mana, and that same Mana was used to create all of creation. The Fruit of Creation and the 5-D crystal-thing on her tree has direct visual connection to each other as shown in the above scans (doesn't even matter when the more direct connection was the relationship between a tree and a fruit).
This will surely get debunked 4 years later when Gaia gets her true form with the fruit of creation when she's supposed to not need it and it will be revealed that the fruit of creation is actually more op than Gaia, but it's just the worst case scenario that will never happen, narratively speaking.
Well, they are transcendent to time so I don't think they'll even have feats of that, but is that required? I don't really see the requirement for that anywhere on the speed page (unless I'm just not looking hard enough), I just see that "if time is unidentifiable then it's immeasurable speed", I'm not sure how it really works here to be exact though...
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I mean, this contains a contradiction.
How could they prelude 'all that ever was' if they descended from the superdimension?
They must be talking about the normal universe here, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
I'd just put them at 6D to be safe.
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- #68
They could've been the one who created said dimension (hence why they even scales to said dimension to begin with), it doesn't really contradict much. We already have Gaia who is the one creating the world to begin with, I don't see why we would have another god taking the role. Plus there's still the Zero World (that obviously no one in the verse for now will benefit directly from for now, especially the "possibly Low 1-A" medal rating it'll get), I suggest that Izanagi and Izanami still need to be put 1 dimension higher than the current world just for that (they have enough statements to back it up so it should be fine really).
Also what do you think about Gaia and Zeus gaining the Almighties abilities as I mentioned? Gaia especially.
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Uh... I think cat god might be 1-A, I'll gather sufficient scans to prove this...
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Cat God in TBC has r>f transcendence over the verse (well, not his physical form though, so that'll still be a separate key for him).
God wrote TBC character desc
God lives in the Real Life
God messing with the character desc again.
Sometimes he won't do anything to the character desc, like in his unit desc
But doesn't mean he can't
God can even mess with banner poster
This one is important, so you might want to check it out @FinePoint
God wrote TBC character desc
God lives in the Real Life
God messing with the character desc again.
Sometimes he won't do anything to the character desc, like in his unit desc
But doesn't mean he can't
God can even mess with banner poster
This one is important, so you might want to check it out @FinePoint
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In combination with Zero World being Possibly Low 1-A, I'm fine with Cat God being Possibly 1-A.
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Only Possibly? I thought having r>f transcendence is an automatic 1-A? And it's not like he has anti feats either, the 1-A key is not for his physical form anyways.
About Izanagi and Izanami, for now they should only be 6-D right? What about their speed rating as mentioned?
And about Gaia gaining the Almighties abilities through the fruit of creation, what do you think about that one? Zeus too.
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While I have no knowledge of Battle Cats and stuff, the scans doesn’t say anything about R>F as I have the impression of Cat God interacting with the game as “Breaking the Fourth Wall”
Breaking the Fourth Wall
The Fourth Wall is a literary term that originates from stage plays. Typically, a stage would be rectangular, so there would be 3 walls, one in the back, and 2 on the sides. The "fourth wall" would be the edge of the stage that faces the audience. Obviously, there was no actual wall there. The...
vsbattles.fandom.com
I will admit I ain’t a expert on Tier 1 stuff generally speaking, but to me, the scans provided for God Cat is heavily leaning towards Breaking the Fourth Wall ability as well.
Not sure if it truly counts as R>F as I leave that up to more knowledgeable members regarding that
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Well there's also context which implies he transcends the rest of the verse as a whole. In combination with what the translation helper said about the transcending dimensions possibly talking about all dimensions.While I have no knowledge of Battle Cats and stuff, the scans doesn’t say anything about R>F as I have the impression of Cat God interacting with the game as “Breaking the Fourth Wall”
Breaking the Fourth Wall
The Fourth Wall is a literary term that originates from stage plays. Typically, a stage would be rectangular, so there would be 3 walls, one in the back, and 2 on the sides. The "fourth wall" would be the edge of the stage that faces the audience. Obviously, there was no actual wall there. The...
I will admit I ain’t a expert on Tier 1 stuff generally speaking, but to me, the scans provided for God Cat is heavily leaning towards Breaking the Fourth Wall ability as well.
Not sure if it truly counts as R>F as I leave that up to more knowledgeable members regarding that
Though, you're right, it may just be 4th wall stuff plus a less severe transcendence, which is why I say Possibly.
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Yeah, weird thing about it is the mention of him living with his mom in this particular scan.
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The one the Op say “Cat God lives in the Real World”
Make me curious on what that is about as well.
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Well I think the implication is that he's just a normal guy from his perspective, like a developer stand-in, which also suggests R>F.Yeah, weird thing about it is the mention of him living with his mom in this particular scan.
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The one the Op say “Cat God lives in the Real World”
Make me curious on what that is about as well.
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Perhaps, but in other instances, he is shown interacting with the game just fine and even acknowledging the reader just as well (which suggests to me, he is very well aware of his own existence there) so I doubt it is a strict R>F kinda of thing.
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Yeah, here we go. Cat God acknowledge the Reader (That will been the player reading his text) which is a good implication he is technically living a “fictional” real world just as well.
Either way, I do think it is fine to make this Cat God as a god tier of his verse from the available evidence provided by the OP and all
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- #79
Life in the real world can be tough... I actuallyYeah, weird thing about it is the mention of him living with his mom in this particular scan.
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The one the Op say “Cat God lives in the Real World”
Make me curious on what that is about as well.
had to move back in with my mom last week...
If this isn't blatant r>f idk what is, especially when we don't even have this kind of thing with the higher-dimensional stuff going on in the verse.
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Then he mentioned the existence of the reader.
“You look like you’re having a good time reading my character text” which is a literal direct Breaking the Fourth Wall feat.
Also don’t see as R>F as it is, at best, vaguely an dimensional jump and I don’t see it as truly R>F upon reading the other text further.
In fact, it kinda suggests the opposite since it is still acknowledging he is technically a fictional character in a “real world” setting especially when he directly acknowledges the reader when reading the whole text.
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