Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Jinx666]

Yeah so very skeptical about using Rhyhorn to scale to Mountain level, as opposed to Large Building with the multiple skyscraper comments. I dont know why we scale other pre-evos to Rhyhorn either when clearly smthn like Bounsweet or Mankey arent built like huge tank rhinos.

Are there any other pre-evos that support this tiering?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That doesn’t even get Rhyhorn to Mountain level, it gets him to Small Town. Also yes there are, Piplup’s Whirlpool.

 

[Jinx666]

Okay, but why does it get him to small town over one sentence thats clearly very sketchy?

Dawn's Piplup is NOT scaleable to the base level 1st stage evo pokemon (even if equating the anime to the games was fine). Last time i checked her piplup was a trained Pokemon, her contest ace and has the same deal as Pikachu with it being strong enough to keep up and doesnt want to evolve. Why are we using that as a baseline?

 

[FinePoint]

Maybe this thread will raise everyone's spirits.

 

[Imaginym]

The page also goes under rivalries, not just predator/prey relationships.

My bad. As I said, I was sleepy & forgetful at the time; I had not checked the page recently.

Pokedex Entries, as fair to use as they are, are also full of a lot of bs, and the existence of type matchups also directly affects any interactions between Pokemon. Rhyhorn can apparently 'destroy mountains' but will die to any move with water in it.

For what it's worth, this could be chalked up to in-universe mechanics. The Powers of the Plates are shared amongst Pokemon, & this could extend to type advantages & weaknesses. They are super-effective, & there's arguably an energy system in it.

Are we sure Rhyhorn's Legends Arceus is even accurate? It was made in ancient times (outdated), the rest of its pokedex entries only talk about Skyscrapers and trucks, and it could easily be referring to Rhyhorn just being able to 'shatter' a good chunk of the surface of the mountain. Theres no other recorded knowledge of a mountain rhyhorn has taken down either in-universe

Evidence (Daguerrotype cameras for one.) suggests PL:A takes place around the early 1900s or so. Not THAT ancient.
Also, IIRC, Laventon may have stuff establishing that he's an established professor overseas, too. I would say such credentials are meant as basis to treat him as a reliable in-universe source.

I mean another pokedex entry says it may feel some pain from a collision with a block of steel the next day.

IIRC, that's in the context of it'll feel pain at all?

 

[Jinx666]

Plates aside, it makes trying to scale and compare species together, when the type matchups are huge advantages against one another (shifting more to a rock-paper-scissors format rather than chain scaling). Laverton might be esteemed but this was the first functional recording of Pokemon, and theres no mountain in Hisui that a rhyhorn has taken down. It definitely feels like Laverton just watched a rhyhorn charge at a mountain, break a decent chunk of it down and then feel nothing afterwards.

Find it very hard to believe we can then use this to scale every other lower tier pre-evo species, and Piplup's whirlpool is from a Piplup that belongs to Dawn, is part of the anime (that diverges heavily from the games), and said Piplup has a deal similar to Pikachu where its massively strong compared to other members of its species despite not evolving.

 

[Lou_change]

Laverton might be esteemed but this was the first functional recording of Pokemon, and theres no mountain in Hisui that a rhyhorn has taken down.

How would you tell if a mountain was destroyed there are dozens of animals that eat rocks also he isn't even native to Hisui it might of happened in his home region.

Find it very hard to believe we can then use this to scale every other lower tier pre-evo species, and Piplup's whirlpool is from a Piplup that belongs to Dawn, is part of the anime (that diverges heavily from the games), and said Piplup has a deal similar to Pikachu where its massively strong compared to other members of its species despite not evolving.

It used the move whirlpool I don't think that it is implied to be particularly distinct from other users of whirlpool which suggests that is just the normal amount of water used in the move

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Okay, but why does it get him to small town over one sentence thats clearly very sketchy?

Dawn's Piplup is NOT scaleable to the base level 1st stage evo pokemon (even if equating the anime to the games was fine). Last time i checked her piplup was a trained Pokemon, her contest ace and has the same deal as Pikachu with it being strong enough to keep up and doesnt want to evolve. Why are we using that as a baseline?

All Pokemon are trained, hence areas only the League Champion are allowed to enter alone. Profiles on this site take them at their best that they can reasonably attain.

 

[LegendariumOfLies]

I like Pokemon Diamond & Pearl. Good Times. 2000-2010 was Peak Pokemon for me. Also, this will always slap no matter how shit the dub was

 

[Hypertornado099]

Also yes there are, Piplup’s Whirlpool.

All Pokemon are trained, hence areas only the League Champion are allowed to enter alone. Profiles on this site take them at their best that they can reasonably attain.

That doesn't make sense at all for scaling. A trainer's Pokemon can easily be stronger than a wild Pokemon of the same species. The profiles are for wild Pokemon, not trainer owned. Dawn's Piplup is more than likely comparable to fully evolved mons, so it wouldn't make sense to use it for scaling to other pre evolved Pokemon

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That doesn't make sense at all for scaling. A trainer's Pokemon can easily be stronger than a wild Pokemon of the same species. The profiles are for wild Pokemon, not trainer owned. Dawn's Piplup is more than likely comparable to fully evolved mons, so it wouldn't make sense to use it for scaling to other pre evolved Pokemon

This is why I think we should remove "Level 100" from the verse page's explanation; if our unevolved Pokemon truly were Level 100 they would stomp even Mewtwo by default and everyone would be Planet level, if not just outright 2-A thanks to Platinum.

It's true that Trainers can push Pokemon past their normal limits via a MUCH tougher training regimen, but that doesn't mean a Pokemon will win every fight just because it has a Trainer. There are many places even Trainers are forbidden to go without being Champion tier, like Cerulean Cave, purely because of how strong the Pokemon have trained themselves.

For weaker races, this is why Pikachus caught at the Kanto Power Plant are >>>>>>>> those found in Viridian Forest.

 

[Imaginym]

There are many places even Trainers are forbidden to go without being Champion tier, like Cerulean Cave, purely because of how strong the Pokemon have trained themselves.

IDK if it's stated that Cerulean Cave Pokemon are stated to have trained themselves, but the notion of an area being too dangerous for non-Champion trainers does bring to my mind Area Zero & certain levels of raids in S/V.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I do agree with Rhyhorn scaling being wack, especially since its hurt when it crashes into a steel block.

Even Machamp's mountain lifting is contradicted, it takes a bit of effort for one to push a big block with 2 arms, and in the anime, 2 Machamp struggle to lift this object that definitely doesn't have the mass of a mountain

 

[Imaginym]

I do agree with Rhyhorn scaling being wack, especially since its hurt when it crashes into a steel block.

IMHO, this isn't the best reasoning. It's a "may" feel pain.
Not to mention, I'm concerned that in this particularity, you may be misrepresenting &/or misremembering.

Ruby	Rhyhorn runs in a straight line, smashing everything in its path. It is not bothered even if it rushes headlong into a block of steel. This Pokémon may feel some pain from the collision the next day, however.

Rhyhorn is stated to not be bothered by rushing headlong into the block of steel, and MAY feel some pain from the collision the next day.

Low-end showings are a thing, & when considering Pokedex entries, it has many feats higher than that.
IIRC, we take things at their best. Characters like Spiderman can get bowled over by the equivalent of a rock being thrown at them when they can lift busses, Kirby being hurt by any of a myriad of environmental hazards, etc. There are lots of low feats, but the high-ends exist, too, & we shouldn't dismiss high-ends just because low-ends exist when this kind of contrast exists in basically every series. We'd need other evidence affirming the high-ends are contradictory. Not to mention, the low-ends could be called contradictory, for similar reasoning.

Even Machamp's mountain lifting is contradicted, it takes a bit of effort for one to push a big block with 2 arms, and in the anime, 2 Machamp struggle to lift this object that definitely doesn't have the mass of a mountain

Even if this isn't a low-end showing, I'd dare call that Plot-Induced Stupidity.
That whole scene is from an episode where Goh trained a Magikarp to win a jumping contest, & it's where the infamous Magikarp jumping into space clip comes from.

The Machamp struggling with the weights is likely to emphasize the sheer mass of the training weights removed from Goh's Magikarp. I'd call that visual hyperbole, because although the shape would be awkward to calculate the mass of, there's a part of me that'd be confident in saying both previous members of Machamp's evolutionary line have feats that should yield higher mass than those weights.

Either way, the notion those weights have more weight than what Machamp can lift, going by its other feats, is to be ridiculous, & given their context in the episode (To shockingly reveal how intensely Goh trained the Magikarp, as was central to that episode's plot.), again, I'd call it Plot-Induced Stupidity &/or visual hyperbole.

Pardon the wordyness, please, all.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Low-end showings are a thing, & when considering Pokedex entries, it has many feats higher than that.
IIRC, we take things at their best. Characters like Spiderman can get bowled over by the equivalent of a rock being thrown at them when they can lift busses, Kirby being hurt by any of a myriad of environmental hazards, etc. There are lots of low feats, but the high-ends exist, too, & we shouldn't dismiss high-ends just because low-ends exist when this kind of contrast exists in basically every series. We'd need other evidence affirming the high-ends are contradictory. Not to mention, the low-ends could be called contradictory, for similar reasoning.

I'm not ignoring the high end feats anyways. I think we can give them an explanation, like Rhyhorn having to hit the mountain multiple times to shatter it, the mountain being small etc. The opposite is also true, I don't think we can ignore low end feats especially since we only have 1 high end for Rhyhorn

IMHO, this isn't the best reasoning. It's a "may" feel pain.

The fact that it even has a possibility of feeling pain from it the next day implies its durability and thus strength shouldn't be Small City level

 

[Lou_change]

I think we can give them an explanation, like Rhyhorn having to hit the mountain multiple times to shatter it, the mountain being small etc.

Rhyhorn aren't exactly known to repeatedly charge into something it is usually a one and done thing

 

[Hypertornado099]

Rhyhorn aren't exactly known to repeatedly charge into something it is usually a one and done thing

How do you know?

 

[Lou_change]

Dex entries
Gold, HeartGold, and Y: It is inept at turning because of its four short legs. It can only charge and run in one direction.

Silver and SoulSilver: It doesn't care if there is anything in its way. It just charges and destroys all obstacles.

Ruby and Omega Ruby: Rhyhorn runs in a straight line, smashing everything in its path. It is not bothered even if it rushes headlong into a block of steel. This Pokémon may feel some pain from the collision the next day, however.

Emerald: Once it starts running, it doesn't stop. Its tiny brain makes it so stupid that it can't remember why it started running in the first place.

Platinum, Black, White, Black 2, and White 2: Its powerful tackles can destroy anything. However, it is too slow witted to help people work.

Violet: Once it starts running, it won’t stop—even if it crashes through boulders. This disposition is what’s caused its habitat to expand.

If these things rarely stop running (Yellow and the let'go games say it will stop if it falls asleep and legends says it can stop if it collides with something), have a hard time turning, aren't smart, have multiple statements of being able to destroy anything and everything in their way which probably isn't entirely literal otherwise why didn't they just use a Rhyhorn and a ramp to stop the meteor in the Delta Episode, but it supports the idea it could charge through a mountain. Given their non stop running, difficulty turning, and dull wit I doubt these things are going out of their way to repeatedly smash mountains until they shatter. That said they are noted to be "Ludicrously strong" in the mountain breaking entry. Ludicrously means to a very surprising or unreasonable extent. For something to be surprising, or unreasonable it usually must be different from the things around it. I doubt it is being compared to humans or Pokemon as a whole given other mountain destroyers exist, but it could be that the comparison is to other first stage Pokemon it's 85 attack is rather high for a basic Pokemon.

 

[Jinx666]

How would you tell if a mountain was destroyed there are dozens of animals that eat rocks also he isn't even native to Hisui it might of happened in his home region.

Probably a huge crater in the surrounding area idk? Im not exactly asking for Pokemon to establish this, though if they DID have something like this, it would definitely help Rhyhorns case. If not, Mountain level is pretty extreme for such a vague entry thats not supported by other entries. Im sure theres other fully-evolved Pokemon too that have mountain-busting statements like Aggron which Rhyhorn shouldnt scale to.

It used the move whirlpool I don't think that it is implied to be particularly distinct from other users of whirlpool which suggests that is just the normal amount of water used in the move

If its being created by Dawn's Piplup, then we shouldnt assume that since its trained and beyond other members of its species. And then its not plausible to scale an anime animation (that doesnt follow the games or their move animations), to the games base level of power.

All Pokemon are trained, hence areas only the League Champion are allowed to enter alone. Profiles on this site take them at their best that they can reasonably attain.

Profiles take the general aspect of the Species stats. They dont account for how possibly strong a pokemon can be, since thats dependent on its training, its more the baseline of what they can do and all the potential moves/abilities they can learn. Its flawed but thats because Pokemon is an inherently inconsistent and tricky verse.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yes, it literally does account for training. Our verse page literally says this.

 

[Jinx666]

Yes, it literally does account for training. Our verse page literally says this.

They're species profiles. How exactly would they be 'trained' in the context of Pokemon if they're wild? And why would they then be several tiers below the apparent Tier 2-based scaling you can stretch for Pokemon?

Seems like yet another consequence of this verse's unorganised formatting.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

They're species profiles. How exactly would they be 'trained' in the context of Pokemon if they're wild? And why would they then be several tiers below the apparent Tier 2-based scaling you can stretch for Pokemon?

Seems like yet another consequence of this verse's unorganised formatting.

"Wild" doesn't mean "Just born". And that's why I just said we should remove the Level 100 thing from the explanations.

 

[Jinx666]

"Wild" doesn't mean "Just born". And that's why I just said we should remove the Level 100 thing from the explanations.

Im aware?

Wild pokemon are also not 'trained' outside of the realms of its natural life and survival. Species profiles arent about an individual Pokemon's composite methods of training, and more so the average range of power they have. Given levels arent actually anything other than game-mechanics.

This verse is so confused.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That was debunked in Gen 4 when Ash's Pikachu was Level 70 in the games.

 

[Jinx666]

That was debunked in Gen 4 when Ash's Pikachu was Level 70 in the games.

Are you /j or /srs rn?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Are you /j or /srs rn?

Let’s just make things real simple and just have you not interfere with anything else Pokemon-related on this site.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Let’s just make things real simple and just have you not interfere with anything else Pokemon-related on this site.

Basically, you're gatekeeping. I'd put in a mocking quote but Jesus Christ on a Surfboard, it hasn't even been a week since a mod warning went out on this sort of crap.

Everyone in this thread needs to stop with the personal attacks and gatekeeping.

@Jinx666 @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
You two in particular.

 

[Jinx666]

There is NO way you are trying to say levels are an actual thing in-canon just because there was a promotional event distribution completely unrelated to anything in the games

This verse isnt your echo chamber

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

There is NO way you are trying to say levels are an actual thing in-canon just because there was a promotional event distribution completely unrelated to anything in the games

This verse isnt your echo chamber

Wasn’t even what I said.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wasn’t even what I said.

No what you said was "I'm gatekeeping because we don't agree". *****, even your Gloria profile would be rendered incorrect because Mainline games would be primary Canon compared to Masters, and unless you've edited it, that profile gives masters more weight.

 

[Jinx666]

Wasn’t even what I said.

What can you possibly be trying to imply based on a promotional pokemon giveaway event based on the anime Pikachu?

Levels are a game-mechanic. As are stat distributions. They arent alligned to their canonical power or representative of anything in any other Pokemon mediums like the anime. Ash's pikachu hasn't got a 'level'. Nothing is 'debunked' in the slightest because of an event distribution (thats not even based on a mythical like Hoopa or Marshadow)

 

[Ebihara]

There is NO way you are trying to say levels are an actual thing in-canon just because there was a promotional event distribution completely unrelated to anything in the games

This verse isnt your echo chamber

The School of Hard Knocks

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

This episdoe menitons pokemon levels. when I read this i vividly remembered this episode. they mention how pokemon evolve at levels and learn certain moves at certain levels. But also tackles that level isnt the only thing when it comes to raw power. These werent things changed for the dub or anything. I think its kinda nonsense and not mentioned alot in the anime to the point where Id say the anime doesnt follow levels or care at all and I wouldnt take it into account for scaling. but it is there.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

What can you possibly be trying to imply based on a promotional pokemon giveaway event based on the anime Pikachu?

Levels are a game-mechanic. As are stat distributions. They arent alligned to their canonical power or representative of anything in any other Pokemon mediums like the anime. Ash's pikachu hasn't got a 'level'. Nothing is 'debunked' in the slightest because of an event distribution (thats not even based on a mythical like Hoopa or Marshadow)

We literally look at the level in the distribution. Literally your only argument comes from the fact that the power implied by Levels varies from game to game, which is separate from what we are talking about.

 

[Jinx666]

The School of Hard Knocks

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

This episdoe menitons pokemon levels. when I read this i vividly remembered this episode. they mention how pokemon evolve at levels and learn certain moves at certain levels. But also tackles that level isnt the only thing when it comes to raw power. These werent things changed for the dub or anything. I think its kinda nonsense and not mentioned alot in the anime to the point where Id say the anime doesnt follow levels or care at all and I wouldnt take it into account for scaling. but it is there.

Yeah sorry but this is Episode 9 of the entire anime, and theres been no mention of levels or anything of the like ever since. theres also no confirmation that this 'levelling' system is the same as the one in the games

Given the animes purpose is to also advertise and sell the games, then its likely they were trying to also explaina nd expand upon some of the features from the games to get kids more familiar, but alas this just does not fit with the lore or story. This is, if anything, just trying to find its feet as a franchise, but theres 0 denying that the anime diverges from the games massively, otherwise a pikachu wouldnt be one of the strongest characters in the series.

People will fr take one random outdated mention of a thing thats never elaborated, and place it over the actual evidence and many, many inconsistencies just for the sake of a point

 

[Jinx666]

We literally look at the level in the distribution. Literally your only argument comes from the fact that the power implied by Levels varies from game to game, which is separate from what we are talking about.

Levels are not anything other than game mechanics and are not representative of canonical power or ability. Especially not in the anime.

Ash's pikachu isnt canonically 'level 70' because of an event distributiont that means nothing, please stop trying to push an agenda.

 

[Ebihara]

Will the Real Oak Please Stand Up?

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

mentions what level slowbro learns a move at lvl 46. the anime gets the move and level wrong. but again its there.

sure i could find more if i googled but this another one i rememberd.

to me it just seems youre coming up with head canon as to why levels dont exist in the anime. You are pretty much putting covering your ears and saying "I CANT HEAR YOU"

 

[Ebihara]

Yeah sorry but this is Episode 9 of the entire anime, and theres been no mention of levels or anything of the like ever since. theres also no confirmation that this 'levelling' system is the same as the one in the games

Given the animes purpose is to also advertise and sell the games, then its likely they were trying to also explaina nd expand upon some of the features from the games to get kids more familiar, but alas this just does not fit with the lore or story. This is, if anything, just trying to find its feet as a franchise, but theres 0 denying that the anime diverges from the games massively, otherwise a pikachu wouldnt be one of the strongest characters in the series.

People will fr take one random outdated mention of a thing thats never elaborated, and place it over the actual evidence and many, many inconsistencies just for the sake of a point

none of these are an acutal agurement that level doesnt exist in the anime. I agree its inconsisent but its mentioned multiple times. if at some point later they retcon it out thats differnt but levels existed in the anime and where mentioned couple times. they can be there and be inonconsient, its brought up mulitple times in episode 9 that level isnt the only thing that matters so using it for scaling wouldnt work anyways.

 

[Jinx666]

none of these are an acutal agurement that level doesnt exist in the anime. I agree its inconsisent but its mentioned multiple times.

Theyre not mentioned 'multiple times'. Its literally once or twice in the older series, and then even bulbapedia is trying to paraphrase the term of 'levelled up' or 'level'. Clearly retconned and irrelevant to any sort of scaling at best.

Idk why we're trying to entertain this. What do ppl get out of trying to apply the game-mechanic of levelling to real canonical power?

to me it just seems youre coming up with head canon as to why levels dont exist in the anime. You are pretty much putting covering your ears and saying "I CANT HEAR YOU"

Or you cant face the criticality at the fact levels are NOT a consistent fact or mentioned at all in the latest seasons of the anime.

Fiction is inconsistent and contradicts itself all the time. In this case, try to have a guess at whether or not Levels are an actual important powerscaling system in the anime based on a few brief mentions at the franchise trying to advertise its main games.

We can all look at Bulbapedia but this line of stretching to accomodate and create huge inconsistencies is partly why this verse is horribly unorganised right now. We shouldnt be using Levels to determine power, period.

 

[Ebihara]

We shouldnt be using Levels to determine power, period.

I am asking genuinelly. did you read anything ive typed? Ive said since my OP that i dont want it used in scaling.

 

[Ebihara]

Id say the anime doesnt follow levels or care at all and I wouldnt take it into account for scaling. but it is there.

your responses are acting like I want it used in scaling. so again please read what others type before you respond.