Pokemon Discussion Thread - Red & Blue arc

[Jinx666]

Sounds like a whole lot of you making excuses for why they wouldn't scale. What's your excuse for why Gloria or Chase or the Pokemon GO guy can't scale, since you can only Master Ball AFTER you reduce their HP to zero? What's your excuse for games that are absolutely full of Legendary Pokemon, like B2W2, ORAS, or USUM? Do you just think they wasted decades at the Check ID area waiting for Master Balls?

I mean...yeah, if I dont think things should scale, i need to state my reasons why.
I wouldnt even acknowledge the Pokemon Go protag lol, Pokemon GO should NOT be used to scale mainline games period.
And like I said before, im talking Box legendaries that the protag HAS to interact with for the main story. Otherwise, the rest are optional and can likely only be mentioned in passing.

There's honestly something so sinister in wanting to weaken the Pokemon verse just because a lot of things are optional.

It's called being critical and fair. I like Pokemon, obviously, and its a popular verse. As such, it should be a leading example of quality, which right now it isnt, because people are too focused trying to 'make an army'.

It's both. Although that would still be stupid asf, because the protagonist very obviously has trouble with future bosses after the Legendary and doesn't just flick everyone including the rematch Champion. Leon is very notably Super Effective against the Legendary you are scripted to catch.

Its not 'both'. Stop telling me what my arguments are please. I have no issue scaling a protag to the legendary they canonically fight/catch, and then scaling prominent trainers they fight afterward like the Champion. I DO however have a problem with scaling any random character that is an optional battle, like Gym leaders rematches (who shouldnt be on the level of the champion period, just because you can choose to fight them after the mainline story. The only reason they're stronger is through game-levelling progression which isnt faithful to the canon scaling, but they still should not scale

Beating a Legendary and adding it to your team would include not only using the thing, but also training it up to his other teammates' standards, which includes stuff like Super Training and potentially Hyper Training.

Dk what you're trying to say here, but Super/Hyper training are game-mechanic gimmicks? Legendaries are already the precedent for scaling, so i dont know why you're trying to suggest the legendaries are the ones that keep up with the standard pokemon

All Trainers in the verse capping at 6-C is not accurate, I'm sorry to say.

The majority of trainers dont scale to Legendary Pokemon whatsoever no

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Considering you downplay Digimon, I don't believe you. Digimon will be getting revisions beginning in October so let's bookmark this post of yours. You better not throw a fit when revisions start.

Not agreeing with 1-C is not downplaying, it's just something I don't feel is accurate, especially given their reliance on soft composites. I literally won't even know it's going on.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Considering you downplay Digimon, I don't believe you. Digimon will be getting revisions beginning in October so let's bookmark this post of yours. You better not throw a fit when revisions start.

Digimon made it to 1-A?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Digimon made it to 1-A?

No, the CRT for it will be in October.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I mean...yeah, if I dont think things should scale, i need to state my reasons why.
I wouldnt even acknowledge the Pokemon Go protag lol, Pokemon GO should NOT be used to scale mainline games period.
And like I said before, im talking Box legendaries that the protag HAS to interact with for the main story. Otherwise, the rest are optional and can likely only be mentioned in passing.

Everything under Planet level can, actually. Especially since you can transfer Pokemon directly FROM GO to games like SwSh, S/V, and BDSP, and their Summary reflects this.

It's called being critical and fair. I like Pokemon, obviously, and its a popular verse. As such, it should be a leading example of quality, which right now it isnt, because people are too focused trying to 'make an army'.

Yeah, no. If you liked Pokemon, you wouldn't be trying so hard to shrink the verse for the sin of not forcing the player to do things.

Its not 'both'. Stop telling me what my arguments are please. I have no issue scaling a protag to the legendary they canonically fight/catch, and then scaling prominent trainers they fight afterward like the Champion. I DO however have a problem with scaling any random character that is an optional battle, like Gym leaders rematches (who shouldnt be on the level of the champion period, just because you can choose to fight them after the mainline story. The only reason they're stronger is through game-levelling progression which isnt faithful to the canon scaling, but they still should not scale

I wasn't, I was telling other people what your arguments are. You were just coping about the players fighting Legendaries by saying they caught them all in Master Balls. And of course they should scale higher, their whole point of being stronger is becoming a challenge to the player again even after they soloed the Elite 4 and beat the Champion all in a row.

Dk what you're trying to say here, but Super/Hyper training are game-mechanic gimmicks? Legendaries are already the precedent for scaling, so i dont know why you're trying to suggest the legendaries are the ones that keep up with the standard pokemon

I knew you'd say that, but Super Training is considered a significant boost even canonically.

I'll give you a hint. Dawn trained a Turtwig to become so strong that it became strong enough to fight Giratina. How strong do you think Dawn could train Giratina?

The majority of trainers dont scale to Legendary Pokemon whatsoever no

I never said they did. I said the ones that do should all get credit for it. Even if a fight is optional, that still reflects their new level after training for a long time.

 

[XitSign]

Takes like two posts to set the fire and blow up the thread in even more multi-paragraph reply storms...

At the core of it all, regardless of any 'debate', I really hope you understand that ontop of the many IRL and Site projects I have, speaking for myself, every time this happens its SO hard to want to jump back into Pokemon revisions and find the energy and willpower to wade through the mountains of arguments and material that needs done because of the sheer size of Pokemon as a franchise, especially with complete left field things like this 'army' nonsense that's become a new theme of the bickering.

I just don't even know where to start, and its exhausting to come back to this every time I see my little bell light up for this thread.

 

[Jinx666]

Everything under Planet level can, actually. Especially since you can transfer Pokemon directly FROM GO to games like SwSh, S/V, and BDSP, and their Summary reflects this.

You can transfer them because thats user-friendly lmfao. That doesnt meant theyre canonically connected

Yeah, no. If you liked Pokemon, you wouldn't be trying so hard to shrink the verse for the sin of not forcing the player to do things.

'Shrink the verse for fun', and its just not wanting to wank them to Tier 2 for some reason just because you hate Digimon for a Death Battle result.

Perhaps you just cant comprehend that people are allowed to enjoy a series without trying to massively push them with the most broken reaches of all time. Imo, Pokemon is in a pretty embarassing state, especially when it is being pushed by someone who is admitting to overbloating the series and trying to make the verse as quantity over quality as possible. Go to the Character Stats and Profiles wiki if you want to scale them independetly.

I wasn't, I was telling other people what your arguments are. You were just coping about the players fighting Legendaries by saying they caught them all in Master Balls. And of course they should scale higher, their whole point of being stronger is becoming a challenge to the player again even after they soloed the Elite 4 and beat the Champion all in a row.

If you read, i said its probaby the most alligned outcome of that fight, given the whole purpose of the master ball (and how traditionally there was only one) was for people to catch the box legend with. There are differences each game, some forcing you to catch it, the other letting you 'defeat it' (Most of the legends are written to 'accept' you anyway)

Wheres the proof that they are canonically a challenge for the protag. Not just because of level progression and post-game content, but like, anything that suggests they provided even the most minima;

I knew you'd say that, but Super Training is considered a significant boost even canonically.

Bro i didnt even bring that up lmao. Its hardly relevant to anything

I'll give you a hint. Dawn trained a Turtwig to become so strong that it became strong enough to fight Giratina. How strong do you think Dawn could train Giratina?

Its always 'could' and never 'has done'. All of the players trained pokemon that took on the league, beat the final boss, fought the legendary etc. Giratina wouldnt canonically need 'training', and realistically i very much doubt that humans could 'hyper train' any of the Creation Trio to be 'stronger' when its inherently appied to the game mechanics aspect. Whats your point here?

I never said they did. I said the ones that do should all get credit for it. Even if a fight is optional, that still reflects their new level after training for a long time.

Okay and wheres the canon proof that they can compete with the protag at their legendary-tier power?
You're trying to scale characters just based on the level-progression, but in the actual narrative there is 0 reason to assume that every gym leader has suddenly become champion level and can therefore scale to the literal gods of the verse.

Takes like two posts to set the fire and blow up the thread in even more multi-paragraph reply storms...

At the core of it all, regardless of any 'debate', I really hope you understand that ontop of the many IRL and Site projects I have, speaking for myself, every time this happens its SO hard to want to jump back into Pokemon revisions and find the energy and willpower to wade through the mountains of arguments and material that needs done because of the sheer size of Pokemon as a franchise, especially with complete left field things like this 'army' nonsense that's become a new theme of the bickering.

I just don't even know where to start, and its exhausting to come back to this every time I see my little bell light up for this thread.

Well sorry, but im not gonna fold from a discussion (This 'fight' isnt even all that bad) just because you're choosing to be demoralised by it. Discussions abt powerscaling is what the forum is for

Pokemon in itself on the verse has been unorganised and messy for ages. You dont HAVE to be reading all this

 

[Jinx666]

Like im sorry all this has started up again, but i think we've quite literally found a huge roadblock as to why things aren't getting better quality-wise for the verse.

Theres just too much to do and no one seems to want to do it. I've got other stuff id prefer doing on the wiki than having to pretend like we're seriously using Pokemon Go as a scaling measure for the entire verse.

 

[XitSign]

just because you're choosing to be demoralised by it.

Don't do that. Seriously.

Discussions abt powerscaling is what the forum is for

Like im sorry all this has started up again, but i think we've quite literally found a huge roadblock as to why things aren't getting better quality-wise for the verse.

Theres just too much to do and no one seems to want to do it. I've got other stuff id prefer doing on the wiki than having to pretend like we're seriously using Pokemon Go as a scaling measure for the entire verse.

Yes, it IS about improving Pokemon and Powerscaling in general, and that's what I would like.

And I generally between the two of you going back and forth (multiple times on these), find your opinion on what is more reasonable compared to Pazdera more agreeable.

My point, frustration, and based on the annoyed posts and memes of others in the thread its not the only one who feels this way, is TYPICALLY Pazdera's obsessiveness over this. From the passive aggressive comments that no one is doing anything (again, hobby, we'll get to it as we have the time), to calling people who don't agree 'enemies' and the 'army' stuff.

Yeah, no. If you liked Pokemon, you wouldn't be trying so hard to shrink the verse for the sin of not forcing the player to do things.

Petty personal attacks in this debate are what the problem mainly is. This ISN'T constructive, this ISN'T how debates should be structured, and yeah, I'm sorry if it's really moral draining to watch it every time this comes up.

The problem isn't trying to improve Pokemon, that's the goal, the problem is that this shouldn't be an acceptable standard for us having a debate in this thread. Frankly, as users dedicating time to a hobby, we should be better than having a 'debate' that always looks like this.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You can transfer them because thats user-friendly lmfao. That doesnt meant theyre canonically connected

Both HOME and the games it connects recognize Pokemon GO as part of the cosmology.

'Shrink the verse for fun', and its just not wanting to wank them to Tier 2 for some reason just because you hate Digimon for a Death Battle result.

Perhaps you just cant comprehend that people are allowed to enjoy a series without trying to massively push them with the most broken reaches of all time. Imo, Pokemon is in a pretty embarassing state, especially when it is being pushed by someone who is admitting to overbloating the series and trying to make the verse as quantity over quality as possible. Go to the Character Stats and Profiles wiki if you want to scale them independetly.

Not what I said, and holy shit you're seriously still trying to push that "He's just angry at Digimon all the time" narrative?

They literally fight the main character. In fact the main character can have the Legendary they scale to on their team during the fight. I have not admitted to "overbloating the series", quite the exact opposite actually.

If you read, i said its probaby the most alligned outcome of that fight, given the whole purpose of the master ball (and how traditionally there was only one) was for people to catch the box legend with. There are differences each game, some forcing you to catch it, the other letting you 'defeat it' (Most of the legends are written to 'accept' you anyway)

Wheres the proof that they are canonically a challenge for the protag. Not just because of level progression and post-game content, but like, anything that suggests they provided even the most minima;

So I was right. Good thing there are a lot of Legendaries and 1 Master Ball, huh? Also Hop has a Legendary too
"The player sweeps the Elite Four lol" is definitely not the narrative they push for either fight.

Bro i didnt even bring that up lmao. Its hardly relevant to anything

"but Super/Hyper training are game-mechanic gimmicks?"

Debunks you

"Its hardly relevant to anything"

Its always 'could' and never 'has done'. All of the players trained pokemon that took on the league, beat the final boss, fought the legendary etc. Giratina wouldnt canonically need 'training', and realistically i very much doubt that humans could 'hyper train' any of the Creation Trio to be 'stronger' when its inherently appied to the game mechanics aspect. Whats your point here?

Dawn defeats Origin Forme Giratina only to later struggle against Volkner. Giratina would definitely need training to fight the much stronger Elite Four and the MASSIVELY stronger Cynthia. You literally can Hyper Train Giratina, btw.

Okay and wheres the canon proof that they can compete with the protag at their legendary-tier power?
You're trying to scale characters just based on the level-progression, but in the actual narrative there is 0 reason to assume that every gym leader has suddenly become champion level and can therefore scale to the literal gods of the verse.

A LOT of reasons, actually.

• Hop literally also has a Legendary, and Leon is >>>>>>>> Hop.
• Lillie and Gladion also have Legendaries.
• Cynthia is faced 1 Gym Leader and 4 Elite Four members after Origin Forme Giratina is. She also gets significantly stronger after Stark Mountain. Barry has a superboss fight that's only unlocked after beating Cynthia 20 times, regardless of whether it's Post-Stark Mountain or not.
• I shouldn't have to say why Lance and Silver are stronger than Ho-Oh, but in HGSS, you fight Silver pretty much immediately after catching Ho-Oh, and then Lance pretty much sweeps Silver's team. Silver himself has another rematch in Mt. Moon in the postgame, and another at the Pokemon League where he is colossally stronger than before, including the previous Lance.
• After the player directly fights Primal Groudon/Primal Kyogre and adds them to his team, Steven himself is also 1 Gym Leader and 4 Elite Four members after that. May is also available as a partner in the post Battle Maison after this happens.
• Leaf was literally planning to defeat Mewtwo herself before you beat her to it, and you can literally battle her daily, as an actual challenge, AFTER you do this.
• Red.

This literally happens every time. Game after game they have means of scaling beyond Legendaries. There's a very good reason to assume that btw, it's called looking at it.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Like im sorry all this has started up again, but i think we've quite literally found a huge roadblock as to why things aren't getting better quality-wise for the verse.

Theres just too much to do and no one seems to want to do it. I've got other stuff id prefer doing on the wiki than having to pretend like we're seriously using Pokemon Go as a scaling measure for the entire verse.

It's you.

Literally the problem is you.

You falsely claimed we have Masters as noncanon to bait mods to delete Pokemon profiles, you vandalized profiles that mention Masters, you complain about shit constantly on this forum and then refuse to help the second people ask for it because you "have a real life", you attack anyone who even remotely disagrees with either the concept of noncanonizing half of every mainline game or deleting all of our smaller profiles, you make low quality profiles when you do want to help (that have nothing to do with your complaints).

Of course nobody wants to do anything for you.

We don't use Pokemon GO as a scaling measure btw, we just have it as a parallel universe.

 

[Jinx666]

Don't do that. Seriously.

Its the truth im afraid. why should i stop discussing and arguing my case just because you dont like seeing people type a few paragraphs regarding this issue. Im afraid if a post is made against me, im going to respond.

And I generally between the two of you going back and forth (multiple times on these), find your opinion on what is more reasonable compared to Pazdera more agreeable.

My point, frustration, and based on the annoyed posts and memes of others in the thread its not the only one who feels this way, is TYPICALLY Pazdera's obsessiveness over this. From the passive aggressive comments that no one is doing anything (again, hobby, we'll get to it as we have the time), to calling people who don't agree 'enemies' and the 'army' stuff.

Petty personal attacks in this debate are what the problem mainly is. This ISN'T constructive, this ISN'T how debates should be structured, and yeah, I'm sorry if it's really moral draining to watch it every time this comes up.

I dont mean to insult, but i definitely dont want to sugarcoat my words either, because quite frankly it is ridiculous with some of the choices that are pushed when scaling Pokemon, which is also what has led Pazdera to this line of thinking.
Its not constructive but theres no way this verse is getting itself together with the current state it is in.

 

[Jinx666]

It's you.

Literally the problem is you.

You falsely claimed we have Masters as noncanon to bait mods to delete Pokemon profiles, you vandalized profiles that mention Masters, you complain about shit constantly on this forum and then refuse to help the second people ask for it because you "have a real life", you attack anyone who even remotely disagrees with either the concept of noncanonizing half of every mainline game or deleting all of our smaller profiles, you make low quality profiles when you do want to help (that have nothing to do with your complaints).

Of course nobody wants to do anything for you.

Delusional?

We don't use Pokemon GO as a scaling measure btw, we just have it as a parallel universe.

Yeah, you do lol. Why is 'Golem dodging solar beam' on most of the profiles???

 

[Jinx666]

Both HOME and the games it connects recognize Pokemon GO as part of the cosmology.

Yeah, and we still arent using that canonically to scale. This is literally just for cross-play features.

Not what I said, and holy shit you're seriously still trying to push that "He's just angry at Digimon all the time" narrative?

They literally fight the main character. In fact the main character can have the Legendary they scale to on their team during the fight. I have not admitted to "overbloating the series", quite the exact opposite actually.

Mate, the digimon stuff is infamous, alongisde other controversies...
,
They dont fight them as part of a narrative if they're post-game optional, and the main character is controlled by YOU.

So I was right. Good thing there are a lot of Legendaries and 1 Master Ball, huh? Also Hop has a Legendary too
"The player sweeps the Elite Four lol" is definitely not the narrative they push for either fight.

You're imagining quotes bro

"but Super/Hyper training are game-mechanic gimmicks?"

Debunks you

"Its hardly relevant to anything"

Its not mate, you literally brought it up, i briefly googled it, and then you hit some rando ass scan that references it just being some way of boosting training. It is not relevant in the slightest

Dawn defeats Origin Forme Giratina only to later struggle against Volkner. Giratina would definitely need training to fight the much stronger Elite Four and the MASSIVELY stronger Cynthia. You literally can Hyper Train Giratina, btw.

Who says she struggles against Volkner? Just because you wiped out on your save file to him doesnt mean hes canonicaly comparable to Giratina lmfao.

Theres no way you're trying to claim Giratina is weaker than Volkner lmfao

A LOT of reasons, actually.

• Hop literally also has a Legendary, and Leon is >>>>>>>> Hop.
• Lillie and Gladion also have Legendaries.
• Cynthia is faced 1 Gym Leader and 4 Elite Four members after Origin Forme Giratina is. She also gets significantly stronger after Stark Mountain. Barry has a superboss fight that's only unlocked after beating Cynthia 20 times, regardless of whether it's Post-Stark Mountain or not.
• I shouldn't have to say why Lance and Silver are stronger than Ho-Oh, but in HGSS, you fight Silver pretty much immediately after catching Ho-Oh, and then Lance pretty much sweeps Silver's team. Silver himself has another rematch in Mt. Moon in the postgame, and another at the Pokemon League where he is colossally stronger than before, including the previous Lance.
• After the player directly fights Primal Groudon/Primal Kyogre and adds them to his team, Steven himself is also 1 Gym Leader and 4 Elite Four members after that. May is also available as a partner in the post Battle Maison after this happens.
• Leaf was literally planning to defeat Mewtwo herself before you beat her to it, and you can literally battle her daily, as an actual challenge, AFTER you do this.
• Red.

This literally happens every time. Game after game they have means of scaling beyond Legendaries. There's a very good reason to assume that btw, it's called looking at it.

You sat here yapping about trainers that im not even talking about??? This is about post-game gym leaders, not actual narrative-based characters. A few of these dont even hold up lol

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Who says she struggles against Volkner? Just because you wiped out on your save file to him doesnt mean hes canonicaly comparable to Giratina lmfao.

Theres no way you're trying to claim Giratina is weaker than Volkner lmfao

Volkner was definitely hyped up to be around Elite Four level if I recall, at least in the other material.

 

[Jinx666]

Volkner was definitely hyped up to be around Elite Four level if I recall, at least in the other material.

8th Gym Leaders do tend to be hyped as the stronger ones jsut for their placement, and Volkner is still Flints rival sure. Definitely a better argument than the others.

But Its just taking it way too far by trying to say hes stronger than Giratina Origin Forme, in all of its lore just based on the game-levelling progression of the protag's journey. And then trying to use that to justify the other Gym leaders being at that same level.

We should only be following the main storyline when it comes to scaling (The events that actually push the story forward), as opposed to trying to scale off of updated teams and assuming they give the protag 'trouble' or can keep up with legendary pokemon on their own.

 

[XitSign]

Its the truth im afraid. why should i stop discussing and arguing my case just because you dont like seeing people type a few paragraphs regarding this issue. Im afraid if a post is made against me, im going to respond.

I meant telling me I 'choose' to be demoralized. Its an insanely uncool thing to say, and shouldn't be how you view someone else expressing their emotions. That's what it was specifically in the quote, and not anything about engaging in debate.

None of my post was about you, or ANYONE, not being allowed to debate. Made it very clear I understand the point of the website and what we're all here for.

The problem is how it keeps straying from being civil. This is a discussion thread for a hobby, we don't need the random potshots at each other and the tempers that flare when they are.

 

[FinePoint]

Everyone in this thread needs to stop with the personal attacks and gatekeeping.

@Jinx666 @Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera
You two in particular.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Delusional?

No.

Yeah, you do lol. Why is 'Golem dodging solar beam' on most of the profiles???

Because if a Golem can do that, you'd be damn sure other Pokemon can. It's actually far from our only FTL feat, just our earliest, and most of these guys scale way beyond that anyway like Deoxys crossing the galaxy in 10 days anyway.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yeah, and we still arent using that canonically to scale. This is literally just for cross-play features.

Alright, let's also remove the characters getting stronger because that's just RPG mechanics, and let's also get rid of the Bag and Trainer Card and everything because that's just part of the pause button.

Mate, the digimon stuff is infamous, alongisde other controversies...
,
They dont fight them as part of a narrative if they're post-game optional, and the main character is controlled by YOU.

"He hates Digimon, I guess he must be looking for vengeance whenever he helps Pokemon."

Oh, so you're just refusing to interact with them in your copy of the game and trying to tell me they're noncanon.

You're imagining quotes bro

What a way of dismissing my points.

Its not mate, you literally brought it up, i briefly googled it, and then you hit some rando ass scan that references it just being some way of boosting training. It is not relevant in the slightest

I brought it up as an example of how one would train a Legendary. You tried to call it noncanon. It's absolutely relevant.

Who says she struggles against Volkner? Just because you wiped out on your save file to him doesnt mean hes canonicaly comparable to Giratina lmfao.

Theres no way you're trying to claim Giratina is weaker than Volkner lmfao

You obviously don't know me that well. I don't "lose" in Pokemon games. Anyway, go straight from Spear Pillar to the 8th Gym and fight Volkner without training and see what happens.

You sat here yapping about trainers that im not even talking about??? This is about post-game gym leaders, not actual narrative-based characters. A few of these dont even hold up lol

Funny, you were hardly talking about Gym Leaders before. I never said Gym Leaders would scale to the strongest Legendary you can think of; Lance is the only one who would scale to Mewtwo in my rematches CRT. Although you literally can just use Giratina against Volkner lol

Name the ones that don't hold up.

 

[Jinx666]

The problem is how it keeps straying from being civil. This is a discussion thread for a hobby, we don't need the random potshots at each other and the tempers that flare when they are.

Ive not said anything out of spite atp, but sadly it cant be sugarcoated when i say, Pazdera is going about things all wrong and the verse is suffering for it.

 

[Jinx666]

Alright, let's also remove the characters getting stronger because that's just RPG mechanics, and let's also get rid of the Bag and Trainer Card and everything because that's just part of the pause button.

Idk how you equate things or strawman this badly. But no, the levelling system in the game is not equivalent to their canonical power.

"He hates Digimon, I guess he must be looking for vengeance whenever he helps Pokemon."

You've admitted this hundreds of times though. It's your whole schtick.

Oh, so you're just refusing to interact with them in your copy of the game and trying to tell me they're noncanon.

Well no, because i dont hold the ideology of compositing the canon protag to every single game run for the sake of trying to stretch absolutely everyone to Tier 2.

What a way of dismissing my points.

If you're making up quotes, then yeah? Why should i respond to a point that is for something i absolutely did not say.

I brought it up as an example of how one would train a Legendary. You tried to call it noncanon. It's absolutely relevant.

Because its not canon? Just because the person playing the game can choose to hypertrain a pokemon, which is entirely based on the in-game stats and levelling system which arent canon-adjacent to their lore.

You obviously don't know me that well. I don't "lose" in Pokemon games. Anyway, go straight from Spear Pillar to the 8th Gym and fight Volkner without training and see what happens.

You just do not get the plot here.

Funny, you were hardly talking about Gym Leaders before. I never said Gym Leaders would scale to the strongest Legendary you can think of; Lance is the only one who would scale to Mewtwo in my rematches CRT. Although you literally can just use Giratina against Volkner lol

You do though...You've literally but Maylene at Tier 2 in rematch because you think for some reason shes now comparable to the player using a giratina or something.
And you've literally just now said you can put Volkner on Giratina's tier. Like?

Name the ones that don't hold up.

No cause im not derailing this any further, constantly trying to add topics.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Idk how you equate things or strawman this badly. But no, the levelling system in the game is not equivalent to their canonical power.

It seems like I hit it right on the nose, actually. Literally in Pokémon HOME, you find out the canon reason for it to exist, which is to create the ultimate Pokedex.

You've admitted this hundreds of times though. It's your whole schtick.

How unprofessional of you to dismiss me and my help because of offsite behavior. I have already agreed to keep any note of “vengeance” far away from VS Battles Wiki.

Well no, because i dont hold the ideology of compositing the canon protag to every single game run for the sake of trying to stretch absolutely everyone to Tier 2.

Good thing you can do all this in one save file, then.

If you're making up quotes, then yeah? Why should i respond to a point that is for something i absolutely did not say.

Because it’s basically what you said to me.

Because its not canon? Just because the person playing the game can choose to hypertrain a pokemon, which is entirely based on the in-game stats and levelling system which arent canon-adjacent to their lore.

It’s “player choice” to equip anything ever in RPGs. This site assumes they do, because that’s what would make sense, because the player character canonically is not stupid. Something so absolutely basic and mundane as training a Pokemon would obviously be counted as well.

You just do not get the plot here.

It’s funny how you blame me every time I debunk you.

You do though...You've literally but Maylene at Tier 2 in rematch because you think for some reason shes now comparable to the player using a giratina or something.
And you've literally just now said you can put Volkner on Giratina's tier. Like?

Maylene’s Lucario is the very strongest Pokémon in the Battleground, an area you can only get to after you’ve defeated Cynthia. If anybody deserves CT scaling, even among people you can literally throw CT members at, it’s her.

No cause im not derailing this any further, constantly trying to add topics.

That’s what I thought.

 

[Jinx666]

It seems like I hit it right on the nose, actually. Literally in Pokémon HOME, you find out the canon reason for it to exist, which is to create the ultimate Pokedex.

You can think its canon all you want, but we should be using it scale for absolutely nothing other than their own profiles.

How unprofessional of you to dismiss me and my help because of offsite behavior. I have already agreed to keep any note of “vengeance” far away from VS Battles Wiki.

This isnt a profession, and yes the other things i have heard about you are quite concerning regardless. I dont wish to bring them up but it is quite obvious what your intentions are.

Good thing you can do all this in one save file, then.

Doesnt equate to everything fixed in a playthrough. Optional and mandatory are key.

Because it’s basically what you said to me.

Then you're wrong, idk what to tell you. If anything, i gave leniency to scaling the Elite Four since theyre still among the top tiers of the region.

It’s “player choice” to equip anything ever in RPGs. This site assumes they do, because that’s what would make sense, because the player character canonically is not stupid. Something so absolutely basic and mundane as training a Pokemon would obviously be counted as well.

The wiki is also against composite profiles. RPG equipment is a different story, but when it comes to Pokemon, there is far too much variation.

It’s funny how you blame me every time I debunk you.

Or you just arent understanding what im saying, all because its something that doesnt abide by your persona ideas.

Maylene’s Lucario is the very strongest Pokémon in the Battleground, an area you can only get to after you’ve defeated Cynthia. If anybody deserves CT scaling, even among people you can literally throw CT members at, it’s her.

Wha??? Ive had to do a google and PLEASE dont tell me you think this because her Lucario is level 66 while most are 65.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Is there a reason why all (but a few like Magikarp) Pokemon are scaled to other Pokemon of the same evolutionary stage?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Is there a reason why all (but a few like Magikarp) Pokemon are scaled to other Pokemon of the same evolutionary stage?

Because a LOT of them fight one another in the games/anime, especially Starters.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Because a LOT of them fight one another in the games/anime, especially Starters.

Any examples?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Any examples?

Rival fights, like in general. Many Starters in the anime go blow for blow with other Starters as well, like Charizard vs Blaziken or really the many times unevolves starters fought other unevolved starters.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Many Starters in the anime go blow for blow with other Starters as well, like Charizard vs Blaziken

That's not a good example since both of them are trained and are stronger than their wild counterparts. We even have unevolved Pokemon fighting and beating fully evolved mons in the anime

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That's not a good example since both of them are trained and are stronger than their wild counterparts. We even have unevolved Pokemon fighting and beating fully evolved mons in the anime

All Pokémon are trained. It just depends if they have a Trainer or not.

 

[Jinx666]

Anime just shouldnt be used in tandem with game scaling tbh. Completely separate continuity and they dont follow the same battle philosophy.

Like i dont know why people use Brock's happiny and try to scale it to all of the other pokemon when thats clearly a gag feat and Brock's happiny is meant to be comically strong as a joke

 

[Hypertornado099]

All Pokémon are trained. It just depends if they have a Trainer or not.

Anime just shouldnt be used in tandem with game scaling tbh. Completely separate continuity and they dont follow the same battle philosophy.

Like i dont know why people use Brock's happiny and try to scale it to all of the other pokemon when thats clearly a gag feat and Brock's happiny is meant to be comically strong as a joke

The lifting strength scaling is so weird currently

 

[Hypertornado099]

Not gonna lie, I feel like FTL/MHS Pokemon isn't consistent. The Solar Beam dodge is contradicted by tons of Pokemon "lore" statements, from the Pokedex, Pokemon websites, and move descriptions

 

[Imaginym]

Is there a reason why all (but a few like Magikarp) Pokemon are scaled to other Pokemon of the same evolutionary stage?

I'm a bit tired to go over it AtM, but there's stuff indicating Pokemon are enthusiastic about battling -Some of the walking dialogue in HG/SS-, as well as statements of Pokemon battling other species in dex entires. There may be other examples of Pokemon battling other Pokemon in general.

 

[Hypertornado099]

I'm a bit tired to go over it AtM, but there's stuff indicating Pokemon are enthusiastic about battling -Some of the walking dialogue in HG/SS-, as well as statements of Pokemon battling other species in dex entires. There may be other examples of Pokemon battling other Pokemon in general.

What does being enthusiastic about battling have to do with this though?

I read the dex entries mentioning Pokemon who battle each other and many of them are like "this big Pokemon preys on this small Pokemon", which doesn't really prove all Pokemon are comparable to the Pokemon in the same stage as them- just that many are stronger than lower staged mons

 

[Imaginym]

What does being enthusiastic about battling have to do with this though?

If it is natural for Pokemon to like battle, that would reinforce Pokemon battling wild other Pokemon.

and many of them are like "this big Pokemon preys on this small Pokemon",

You say, having used a page that specifically documents Pokemon Predation. (If there's other info, my bad. I am forgetful & sleepy, & would rather discuss this later.)

Sorry for any bother.

 

[Lou_change]

Like i dont know why people use Brock's happiny and try to scale it to all of the other pokemon when thats clearly a gag feat and Brock's happiny is meant to be comically strong as a joke

I agree with Brock's Happiny being built different given it shown strength greater than some of the Pokemon we are scaling it to and as a result shouldn't be scaled to unless the thing scaling directly shows it is comparable. Brock's Happiny is legitimately that strong though.

 

[Jinx666]

You say, having used a page that specifically documents Pokemon Predation. (If there's other info, my bad. I am forgetful & sleepy, & would rather discuss this later.)

The page also goes under rivalries, not just predator/prey relationships.

 

[Jinx666]

Either way, while i feel Pokemon stage evoutions can definitely be 'comparable', there are obviously a ton of exceptions, and the lengths and implications they go through in scaling just gets crazy.

Pokedex Entries, as fair to use as they are, are also full of a lot of bs, and the existence of type matchups also directly affects any interactions between Pokemon. Rhyhorn can apparently 'destroy mountains' but will die to any move with water in it.

Are we sure Rhyhorn's Legends Arceus is even accurate? It was made in ancient times (outdated), the rest of its pokedex entries only talk about Skyscrapers and trucks, and it could easily be referring to Rhyhorn just being able to 'shatter' a good chunk of the surface of the mountain. Theres no other recorded knowledge of a mountain rhyhorn has taken down either in-universe

 

[Lou_change]

I mean another pokedex entry says it may feel some pain from a collision with a block of steel the next day. That said the pokedex is known to clarify if it talking about something that is only said, believe, or rumored to be true and it happens several times in the Hisui pokedex like in Drifloon;s, Haunter's, and Chatot's entries