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Satoru Gojo (The Honored One) Vs Makima (The Control Devil) (Jujutsu Kaisen Vs Chainsaw Man) [49-37-7]

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Aki just said to himself "If Angel stands there, he's going to die." Nothing else, so Aki says "Angel, get out of there." With Quanxi, it worked because I suspect she didn't expect Angel to move out of the way. With Gojo, if Makima Precogs and sees herself dying in the place she's in right now, gets out of the way, Gojo will simply react in real time and move the blue towards where she dodges to paste her anyway. All Gojo needs to do to make Makima's precog completely useless is to simply wave his hand towards the direction Makima moved towards when she dodged the initial attack.
The official translation shows Aki telling both hunters to go on the defensive. Unfortunately, after Makima makes her move, Gojo dies due to her use of biological manip. That’s my interpretation of this scenario. In reality, I believe Makima would defeat Gojo in a quick draw regardless.

I’ve already concluded my arguments with Razor and my points and stance should be pretty clear. I just wanted to comment on your slight misinterpretation of Aki’s precognition.
 
I do NOT want to read 9 pages of arguments. Can someone summarize the points? I'm of the opinion Gojo wins this mid-diff at most. But I wanna hear the other side's arguments first.

Alright, I'm going to be the one to write Makima's win cons. Feel free to respond however you like or debunk them, since there's a chance I may or may not be active in this thread. I'll go through this bit by bit.

Important note - Makima can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with. Meaning once she takes control of a devil, she can use that devil’s abilities as her own, even after their death, as shown in the scans above. (This is one her profile) So please keep this in mind for the takes below.​


Makima's wincons​

1) Biological Manipulation -

Makima can mess with Gojo's internal organs, including critical ones like the brain. This can severely disrupt his ability to use RCT, focus during battle and formulate strategies, causing him to underperform and not fight at his full potential. This ability is rarely used a, but given that she's aware of Gojo’s threat level, it’s more likely she'll use the stronger version of this technique, a focused point attack.

Just to clarify: this is not accepted as "Bang," and in general, it should not be confused with "Bang." Now, this ability spontaneously explodes or severely disrupts the target's internal organs from the inside out. In the Chainsaw Man universe, it was powerful enough to harm the Darkness Devil, a Primal Fear. That alone implies Gojo is in serious danger if he gets hit by this, potentially resulting in instant death or at least incapacitation.

Makima tends to reserve this technique for powerful opponents like Primal Fears, as seen in her fight against the Darkness Devil, where it hindered him significantly. It's a real possibility that Gojo's high status would prompt Makima to use this win con to kill him or push him to the brink of death and utilize her Conquest. And no, Gojo "refreshing his mind" won’t help. Makima’s Conquest is supernatural and not tied to the brain in specific, it cannot be nullified by simply refreshing his brain with RCT and character's like Reze have done the same where they explode their brains, but still remain under the influence of Conquest.

2) BFR (Hell Devil ver) -

The Hell Devil does not require physical contact to remove opponents from the battlefield, which makes it especially useful. Simply removing Gojo bypasses the problem of Infinity, turning the obstacle and its source into a single issue that can be quickly resolved. Makima can achieve this by either forcing her Conquest ability onto the Hell Devil to make it do her bidding, as she typically does or by sacrificing multiple Devil Hunters, with the latter being the more reliable method.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used. Once Makima realizes she can’t harm Gojo with her primary attacks, such as "Bang," which is generally accepted as a form of telekinetic force, she may opt to remove the problem entirely by summoning the Hell Devil to drag Gojo into Hell, effectively neutralizing him.

2.1) BFR (Hell Devil + Princi) -

To make the ability execute more smoothly and efficiently, Makima can send Princi to Hell and order her to summon Gojo through one of her zippers. This makes the BFR far safer and more effective, minimizing the risk of pressured or tampered by Gojo.

2.2) BFR (Eternity Devil) -

This strategy is essentially a more refined version of the Prison Realm, think of it as Prison Realm 2.0 with bug fixes. All Makima needs to do is lure Gojo into a structure, such as a building or other infrastructure. She can do this using her animal manipulation abilities. Through lower lifeforms like a pack of rats, she can travel between locations and use them as mediums to lure Gojo into a chosen spot.

Once Gojo enters the targeted location, Makima can set up a trap using the Eternity Devil. She can then escape via her interdimensional travel while Gojo becomes trapped in a space similar to the Prison Realm, where he can be left to die. Notably, Makima can also prevent the Eternity Devil from revealing itself, as seen in the aquarium arc.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used, roughly on par with the Hell Devil tactic. If Makima realizes she can't deal with Gojo’s Infinity directly, she’s likely to lean into her versatility in her controlled abilities to remove him from the fight altogether.

3) Organic Manipulation -

This ability allows Makima, after drawing blood from her hand, to grow a mold inside Gojo's body, one that cannot be healed or regenerated. This serves as either an instant win con or a massive hindrance to Gojo’s focus, physical condition and overall performance.

Makima can also use this ability more creatively by directing her minions through this devil to grow mold in Gojo’s body from multiple angles, overwhelming him. This coordinated internal assault would ultimately result in Gojo’s death.

The likelihood of this ability being used is comparable to her other options for the same reason.

4) Cosmo -

Makima can give Gojo a taste of an All-Out Halloween, which, depending on the range, can either momentarily or permanently incapacitate him. If Gojo gets up close and personal with Makima, a single Halloween may be enough to affect him, albeit with reduced likely reduced effect. At longer range, the ability requires more time to charge, but guarantees total and permanent incapacitation, hence the term All-Out Halloween.

Unlike Makima’s other abilities, where she can creatively employ various minions through contracts, this technique is unique. It is solely exceptional to Cosmo and Makima, as it cannot be accessed through a standard devil contract. The change of it being used is the same as the others. Morso as a final rebound if needed.

Makima's Advanatges​

1) Reactions & Perception Advantage -
With speed equalization, the rules explicitly state:

Makima's combat speed is High Hypersonic+ (Mach 81.48), while her reaction speed scales massively above Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1390.67). Gojo's combat and reaction speed is listed at Mach 2.86.

This makes her reaction speeds alone 17x faster than Gojo's. So even under speed equalization, Makima's reaction speed is scaled down by the same multiplier as her combat speed.

Plus, Makima's Automatic Precognition, which allows her to see a few seconds into the future, grants her a tactical advantage. Not only can she predict Gojo’s next moves and react accordingly, but she can also perceive his actions before he even performs them, turning him into an open book.

2) Tactical Approach & Clairvoyance -
As stated on her profile:

In short, once Makima becomes aware of Gojo's status and realizes that controlling him directly isn’t viable, she will work from the shadows to analyze him and gauge the scope of his abilities. She’ll rely on her minions to observe strength and capabilities. Makima is an exceptionally quick and perceptive thinker whom is capable of formulating strategies and improvising with her powers in real time, as demonstrated during her fight with the Gun Devil.

And before anyone says anything: no, she did not prepare for that fight. There was no pre-battle planning for the initial takedown of the Gun Devil. What was actually prepared was the plan for Aki to become the vessel, having the Gun Devil’s corpse placed in his body and sent straight to Denji’s front door. That was orchestrated, not the battle itself.

So, once Makima has a solid understanding of Gojo’s mechanics, she will return to the battlefield and actively pursue him using her wide arsenal of options.

Also worth noting: Makima can read minds.
As stated on her profile:

She can eventually figure Gojo out, his abilities, how they work all through his own memories.

3) Enhanced Senses -
As stated on her profile:

With this, it’s clear that Makima effectively has all eyes on Gojo, constantly aware of his location and actions, whether through her own awareness or via her controlled minions. This constant surveillance allows her to anticipate and counter Gojo's strategies in real time.

Makima's Resistances​

1) Infinite Void -
As her profile states:

Prop's for resisting a stronger infinite void.

Conclusion​

Everything above outlines the various ways Makima can achieve victory. You're free to respond or debate these points using Gojo's abilities and showings, but based on the information provided, it's clear to me that Makima holds the tactical advantage, along with a versatile range of win cons and controlled abilities as well as a perception advantage.

For these reasons, I'm casting my vote for Makima.
Should be everything for Makimas side.

Just realized Castorice did it for me already.
 
Basically Gojo’s argument is that he quickly figures out punches won’t cut it and pastes her with red or HP.

Makima’s argument is that she has a massive advantage in reaction speed so will quickly figure out her regular attacks won’t cut it and BFR him with the Hell Devil.
Since Gojo is more likely to jump to Red or HP sooner, but Makima has better reaction speed to work through her options quicker to eventually get to the Hell Devil or Bio Hax, I think who gets to their win con first is a bit up to luck.

I’m just going to vote inconclusive.
 
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...see the weakness of an ability she cannot see nor understand? You're trying to discretely give Makima meta knowledge. Okay okay, tell me by what reasoning can Makima understand that Gojo's RCT (an ability under a power system she has no idea about) has a weakness that he cannot heal more than 5 times despite not knowing how Gojo is healing the brain damage and Gojo giving no indication that he was visibly affected by it. She can't sense Cursed Energy.
It was simply that she searched Gojo's mind about how Gojo's RCT worked.
 
True powerscalers would be able to stall this match and get this match to 20 pages by the next day


Was this point conceded
Idk if it was explicitly conceded, but it stopped being argued once people pointed out that we have no idea how it works, if its even mind reading, and the inconsistencies in the story if it indeed is.
 
haven't seen much profiles on the site, but Sukuna has probably the Most amount of Loses I saw on a profile besides Homelander

(Pretty sure the losing streak was broken with Bakugo, but no one added the matchup to their profiles)
You can just take a look at Gojo’s losses to see an even bigger one. Nvm that’s a lot less.
 
I genuinely think Deku cannot lose under any circumstances without getting stomped. I don't think there's a single person in High 6-A that can survive getting blitzed for 20 minutes straight, and if they do, Deku gets stomped. There's no in between. It's nuts.
 
Should be everything for Makimas side.
Alright.

Bio-Manip stuff: The extent of damage done to the innards is never shown and vague. Unless someone can provide scans of the damage it causes internally, Gojo should have zero difficulty healing it, and won't be hindered by it at all as he can easily recover from physically destroying his entire right prefrontal cortex. And hasn't been shown to disrupt his flows or focus at all in combat. If the damage isn't as extensive either via statement or visuals, Gojo should be able to recover it without the same issues he had with regenerating his brain. In fact, I have no reason to believe it wouldn't be slightly more difficult than constantly regenerating his brain to stop Infinity from frying it which is constantly (slowly) destroying his brain.

Hell BFR: The only prove for it not being done via movements happens offscreen (The hand comes out off panel, and then we just get a cut to Aki's body laying down and being transported back to Earth).

Not to mention, even if this done without movement, this is only evidence that they can be REMOVED from hell without movement. Not sent to hell.
Unless there's evidence of someone being sent to hell without involving any movement, I'm doubtful Gojo's being caught by that when he would both be able to avoid it, and just obliterates the Hell Devil's hand with his Cursed Techniques.

Gunshy also gave no scans of Princi being able to magically teleport people inside of her, and thus to hell. I doubt luring him into a building will help much either when he'd just be blowing them up left and right to get her using Blue or Red.

Mold Devil: In the scan of the Mold Devil being used, all it does is make Quanxi bleed from her nose and mouth, and she seems almost completely unhindered in her physical abilities (She even wondered why she was bleeding, as if unable to tell she was hurt either externally or internally). Nothing indicates it can instantly kill someone. Let alone Gojo who can live through and regenerate worse internal injury. And to be honest, I'm not even sure if Makima can summon this inside of Gojo. All Sorcerer innate domains prevent others from teleporting attacks inside of them. Which specifically prevents this exact sort of thing.

Cosmo: Pretty sure Gojo just immediately kills Cosmo with Blue before she does anything. Also curious if Gojo could outright nullify it by opening Unlimited Void thinking it was a Domain Expansion since it'll end up creating an alternate dimension which Halloween doesn't have the range to affect (His innate domain might also be able to stop it from spawning inside him, but I'm not as sure of this one).

Reaction Speed + Clairvoyance stuff: Reaction speed is only good for quick and short movements/using thought based abilities. There's also no scans of the characters being able to see a future that doesn't happen. Such as them being hit by an attack, when they actually end up blocking it. So unless there's evidence of them seeing themselves getting hit, but then actually blocking it, I don't think she's precogging get obliterated by thought-based spawning Blue on her (Which she can't perceive). So I don't think that's going to help there. The only feats I've seen are them seeing seconds ahead BEFORE they get hit. Not an alternate future where they ARE hit.

Tactical Approach stuff: I don't think anything is really wrong with this. But Gojo is also tactical, and should likely be able to understand most of Makima's arsenal through a single glance at her due to Six Eyes (It lets him understand someone's Cursed Technique which is biological, soul, abstract, etc.) Knowing her stuff means Gojo is going to be especially aggressive and trying to wipe her out ASAP.

Enhanced Senses: Same as the former. Gojo can see souls, cursed energy, and lack of cursed energy to see his surroundings. If he could locate Kenjaku and Sukuna from like, 500ish kilometers away to teleport to them, I don't think he's having much trouble locating Makima if he's actively fighting and trying to kill her.

Resistance to info manip: Claimed to be superior to Unlimited Void without evidence. It has a statement of putting all the knowledge of the universe into your brain, but that hasn't been quantified, and not to mention is finite. Gojo's Unlimited Void pours infinite information into the brain. Technically it doesn't even really do that. It causes your senses to process information infinitely, thus your body is unable to focus on doing anything else such as moving as it is already preoccupied with processing information. Whereas Cosmo's does just outright dump info into your brain. It's affecting Makima due to the nuances of how it works + it's infinitely being processed.

Not voting, but I think most of Makima's win-cons are honestly a genuine threat. Personally I think Gojo can just spawn Blue on Makima like so (but with lethal intent) and instantly kill her. Could she avoid it? Maaaaaybe? But in like 99.99% of fights she's in, she ends up getting tagged. So unless we are suddenly saying she's a skill-god who can dodge almost any attack (Which isn't what's portrayed in CSM), then I think she's getting hit. And it's going to kill her.
 
the answer lies in your question, i don't know who told you it doesn't apply in combat, but nah, it still applies
How does it apply in combat if you dont even know how she found out about denji's contract. You'd have to prove whatever means she used to find out the information can be used on gojo. Her profile doesnt state her means of uncovering this information as mind reading.
 
How does it apply in combat if you dont even know how she found out about denji's contract. You'd have to prove whatever means she used to find out the information can be used on gojo. Her profile doesnt state her means of uncovering this information as mind reading.
it doesn't say it explicitly but you have to understand that at least Makima searched Denji's mind to find it, even Makima knew that Denji killed his father with his own hands

btw, nowhere does it say she won't use it in combat, she's not "Stupid"
 
While I am remaining neutral despite leaning for Makima overall for the simple fact that she has such a large (reaction) speed advantage (seriously, the gap between Subsonic to Hypersonic speed is just 10x and Makima's speed advantage is nearly 20x, so she will literally be able to pull off dozens of more moves (provided they are quick and/or thought-based) faster than Gojo can blink), I kinda want to advocate to unequal speed and see if Gojo's advantages can save him.
 
Gojo using Blue is like top three things he starts with, with the other two being Red and Purple. Honorable Mention being Unlimited Void.

Let me put it like this:

If Gojo summons a blue directly on Makima and Makima foresees her death and gets out of the area, Gojo will simply have his blue go to wherever Makima went to and pull and crush her anyways. Makima can see the future, but once she decides to change it, she won't know what's going to happen next.
Wrong, Aki has been using that to dodge attacks, if it works like you said then that ability is useless.
Did Makima use bio hax on Darkness Devil five times in a row for no reason? No? Why would she do it to Gojo then? And no, Gojo wouldn't "visibly having a hard time dealing with it," Makima will see Gojo bleed for a few seconds, then not anymore. We can literally see Gojo heal up brain damage in Shinjuku Showdown and look like he's okay right after.
Makima didn't use it on darkness for no reason, it to simply buy some time. But against Darkness, that's the attack Makima used, the only attack that she thought would be useful against. If Gojo doesn't instantly heals it without any trouble at all (which I doubt he could even do, that'll leave for the brain damage debate, and I'm on the side that Gojo can't), then makima will simply spam that attack, cause it's effective. If it's not, she would try to keep distance by instantly teleporting away from Gojo, no reason to go for a brawl when something that lethal seemingly can't put Gojo down.
 
it doesn't say it explicitly but you have to understand that at least Makima searched Denji's mind to find it, even Makima knew that Denji killed his father with his own hands

btw, nowhere does it say she won't use it in combat, she's not "Stupid"
I don't think he's saying she's stupid. He's just saying we literally never saw how she did it, and thus can't presume how she does it since it occurs offscreen. Nor is she ever shown to use said ability in a combat scenario. Not saying she can't, but at least from your guys back-and-forth that's what I got from it.
 
Alright.

Bio-Manip stuff: The extent of damage done to the innards is never shown and vague. Unless someone can provide scans of the damage it causes internally, Gojo should have zero difficulty healing it, and won't be hindered by it at all as he can easily recover from physically destroying his entire right prefrontal cortex. And hasn't been shown to disrupt his flows or focus at all in combat. If the damage isn't as extensive either via statement or visuals, Gojo should be able to recover it without the same issues he had with regenerating his brain. In fact, I have no reason to believe it wouldn't be slightly more difficult than constantly regenerating his brain to stop Infinity from frying it which is constantly (slowly) destroying his brain.

Hell BFR: The only prove for it not being done via movements happens offscreen (The hand comes out off panel, and then we just get a cut to Aki's body laying down and being transported back to Earth).

Not to mention, even if this done without movement, this is only evidence that they can be REMOVED from hell without movement. Not sent to hell.
Unless there's evidence of someone being sent to hell without involving any movement, I'm doubtful Gojo's being caught by that when he would both be able to avoid it, and just obliterates the Hell Devil's hand with his Cursed Techniques.

Gunshy also gave no scans of Princi being able to magically teleport people inside of her, and thus to hell. I doubt luring him into a building will help much either when he'd just be blowing them up left and right to get her using Blue or Red.

Mold Devil: In the scan of the Mold Devil being used, all it does is make Quanxi bleed from her nose and mouth, and she seems almost completely unhindered in her physical abilities (She even wondered why she was bleeding, as if unable to tell she was hurt either externally or internally). Nothing indicates it can instantly kill someone. Let alone Gojo who can live through and regenerate worse internal injury. And to be honest, I'm not even sure if Makima can summon this inside of Gojo. All Sorcerer innate domains prevent others from teleporting attacks inside of them. Which specifically prevents this exact sort of thing.

Cosmo: Pretty sure Gojo just immediately kills Cosmo with Blue before she does anything. Also curious if Gojo could outright nullify it by opening Unlimited Void thinking it was a Domain Expansion since it'll end up creating an alternate dimension which Halloween doesn't have the range to affect (His innate domain might also be able to stop it from spawning inside him, but I'm not as sure of this one).

Reaction Speed + Clairvoyance stuff: Reaction speed is only good for quick and short movements/using thought based abilities. There's also no scans of the characters being able to see a future that doesn't happen. Such as them being hit by an attack, when they actually end up blocking it. So unless there's evidence of them seeing themselves getting hit, but then actually blocking it, I don't think she's precogging get obliterated by thought-based spawning Blue on her (Which she can't perceive). So I don't think that's going to help there. The only feats I've seen are them seeing seconds ahead BEFORE they get hit. Not an alternate future where they ARE hit.

Tactical Approach stuff: I don't think anything is really wrong with this. But Gojo is also tactical, and should likely be able to understand most of Makima's arsenal through a single glance at her due to Six Eyes (It lets him understand someone's Cursed Technique which is biological, soul, abstract, etc.) Knowing her stuff means Gojo is going to be especially aggressive and trying to wipe her out ASAP.

Enhanced Senses: Same as the former. Gojo can see souls, cursed energy, and lack of cursed energy to see his surroundings. If he could locate Kenjaku and Sukuna from like, 500ish kilometers away to teleport to them, I don't think he's having much trouble locating Makima if he's actively fighting and trying to kill her.

Resistance to info manip: Claimed to be superior to Unlimited Void without evidence. It has a statement of putting all the knowledge of the universe into your brain, but that hasn't been quantified, and not to mention is finite. Gojo's Unlimited Void pours infinite information into the brain. Technically it doesn't even really do that. It causes your senses to process information infinitely, thus your body is unable to focus on doing anything else such as moving as it is already preoccupied with processing information. Whereas Cosmo's does just outright dump info into your brain. It's affecting Makima due to the nuances of how it works + it's infinitely being processed.

Not voting, but I think most of Makima's win-cons are honestly a genuine threat. Personally I think Gojo can just spawn Blue on Makima like so (but with lethal intent) and instantly kill her. Could she avoid it? Maaaaaybe? But in like 99.99% of fights she's in, she ends up getting tagged. So unless we are suddenly saying she's a skill-god who can dodge almost any attack (Which isn't what's portrayed in CSM), then I think she's getting hit. And it's going to kill her.
Will give you some clarity on these considering they were mainly discussed during the thread. However, I'm pretty tired and I have to travel a lot, so it might take me some time to respond.
 
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