Satoru Gojo (The Honored One) Vs Makima (The Control Devil) (Jujutsu Kaisen Vs Chainsaw Man) [49-37-7]

[Jaynic1]

But she can teleport 500km away, that's the thing here. People argued "Gojo could tag Makima if she teleports away" and forgets that Makima could easily teleports 500km away, while Gojo has 0 feats putting him on that level.

Would makima really teleport away or would she not try to do a preemptive strike

 

[Catbowtie]

Ah yes, and so does Aki, yet he blocked it.

Blocked? So Makima tries to block an attack that pastes her a hundred times over and dies. Lol.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Multiple Kilometers vs 500km. Sure dude...

Do you know how far the Japan Trench is away from Japan itself...

Gimme a second

 

[Jaynic1]

I think this is an extremely close fight but acertainbcplayer's arguments arent it

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Blocked? So Makima tries to block an attack that pastes her a hundred times over and dies. Lol.

No, she'd try to dodge it. Aki can't dodge it because he's just a human against a monster.

Would makima really teleport away or would she not try to do a preemptive strike

If see knows she's cooked, that's what she'd do.

Do you know how far the Japan Trench is away from Japan itself...

Gimme a second

I already know, I mean I'm the one doing the calcs and stuff on that after all. 300km at most.

 

[Jaynic1]

If see knows she's cooked, that's what she'd do.

Hm I think if the first thing she does with her superior reaction speed is activate future devil and sees herself getting pasted by an attack she cant see the first thing she'll do is use her brain targeting thing like against the darkness devil

 

[Catbowtie]

No, she'd try to dodge it. Aki can't dodge it because he's just a human against a monster.

Can you show us the scans of Aki dodging invisible attacks?

 

[Arkansalter2]

You can't dodge something you can't see, even with precog. If she's seeing a few seconds into the future, she'll just see herself getting pasted without knowing why. She wouldn't even know when or how to dodge an attack that just pastes her.

 

[Catbowtie]

Really, what I'm trying to figure out is how Aki managed to do the so-called "dodging invisible attacks"

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Can you show us the scans of Aki dodging invisible attacks?

He did not dodge it, but blocked. "invisible" because Quanxi is just THAT FAST

 

[Jaynic1]

You can't dodge something you can't see, even with precog. If she's seeing a few seconds into the future, she'll just see herself getting pasted without knowing why. She wouldn't even know when or how to dodge an attack that just pastes her.

Ye its impossible for her to dodge red, even if she moves outta the way gojo can just adjust his aim or have red track her, the only way she's surviving is if she attacks first

 

[Catbowtie]

He did not dodge it, but blocked. "invisible" because Quanxi is just THAT FAST

What chapter is this?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

You can't dodge something you can't see, even with precog. If she's seeing a few seconds into the future, she'll just see herself getting pasted without knowing why. She wouldn't even know when or how to dodge an attack that just pastes her.

She knows when, and she knows how too. If an attack can paste her and not leave a Toji-style hole, it will cause collateral damage

 

[Apotheosis69]

The deepest point of the Japan Trench is Tuscarora Deep, which is in the north portion of the Trench (unironically is 8000 meters deep). Vast majority of the story is in the southern prefectures of Japan, like Tokyo Prefecture. Even if not, they Absolutely are NOT in Hokkaido (the northern most island of Japan). With that, they are FAARRRR above 500 km in distance

I already know, I mean I'm the one doing the calcs and stuff on that after all. 300km at most.

Yeahhhh.... everything you're saying is quite against that

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

What chapter is this?

International assassins arc, chap 60

 

[Arkansalter2]

If an attack can paste her and not leave a Toji-style hole, it will cause collateral damage

????? Why is that supposed to be a valid argument?

She knows when, and she knows how too

It's invisible attacks. How would she know? You can't precog what you can't see. Even if she does try to dodge it, it'll just explode or track right on to her so unless she has a way to avoid invisible psuedo-homing attacks (in which the probably doesn't), she's getting pasted.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

The deepest point of the Japan Trench is Tuscarora Deep, which is in the north portion of the Trench (unironically is 8000 meters deep). Vast majority of the story is in the southern prefectures of Japan, like Tokyo Prefecture. Even if not, they Absolutely are NOT in Hokkaido (the northern most island of Japan). With that, they are FAARRRR above 500 km in distance

Yeahhhh.... everything you're saying is quite against that

Where was Kenjaku again? And sorry, even if Kenjaku's in Tokyo, it's still about 500km away: https://www.calcmaps.com/map-distance/sxa9xt/

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

????? Why is that supposed to be a valid argument?

Because it's valid? Like ain't Gojo firing anything causes huge collateral damage? And if it doesn't it means that the attack is small, and if small enough all it does is leaving a Toji-style hole inside Makima's body, or not completely distingerate her body.

It's invisible attacks. How would she know? You can't precog what you can't see. Even if she does try to dodge it, it'll just explode or track right on to her so unless she has a way to avoid invisible psuedo-homing attacks (in which the probably doesn't), she's getting pasted.

Uh... Then how would Aki knows when to block Quanxi too? Because he knows when it will happen, OHHHH!!!!

 

[Apotheosis69]

We don't know, but 9/10 times they are within a nearby prefecture of Tokyo. They most likely are not in the Saitama prefecture as the gang that unsealed him where in the Saitama prefecture. I Genuinely would say more inland than Tokyo and Saitama to keep distance.

Dude, the Trench and Deep is WAAAAY more Far out than that and north too. And the fact that you said 500 kilometers anyway, just proves that Gojo can get to her.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

We hitting 10 pages in 1 day btw

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

We don't know, but 9/10 times they are within a nearby prefecture of Tokyo. They most likely are not in the Saitama prefecture as the gang that unsealed him where in the Saitama prefecture. I Genuinely would say more inland than Tokyo and Saitama to keep distance.

Dude, it is WAY more Far out than that and north too. And the fact that you said 500 kilometers anyway, just proves that Gojo can get to her.

Gojo has to identify where she is (given that Makima's amount of CE given with verse equalization is NOT enough to see Gojo's attack, I doubt he'll even be able to), we don't even know the timeframe either (cause get it, IT'S OFFSCREENED BHUAHAHAA... Again).

All Gojo has is assumptions, all Makima has are feats recorded down to the second

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Anyways, I really hate the Gojo earthquake feats (and everything related to it) cause people be getting lots of stuff out of it without either a timeframe or onscreen feats either, this time is no different.

We don't know where Kenjaku was, we don't know how long it took for Gojo to get there (we do know that the buildings are wrecked though, so it might be a city or a certain urban area). Luckily I can easily find the exact coords for the deepest part of the trench, and that's all we got folks.

 

[GodEarh206]

It's invisible attacks. How would she know? You can't precog what you can't see. Even if she does try to dodge it, it'll just explode or track right on to her so unless she has a way to avoid invisible psuedo-homing attacks (in which the probably doesn't), she's getting pasted.

Makima didn't know where it came from, yes, but she saw that when she was hit by it, it would kill her, there was no reason why Makima would try to stay away from that "area" and try to find out what killed her. As you know, Makima has the ability to see the opponent's abilities and weaknesses in some way.

 

[Catbowtie]

Okay, so I read chapter 60, and I understand the gist of how Aki dodged the attack

The images I posted is basically the entire event. Quanxi was speed blitzing all of the dolls and humans there, and Aki was able to rush to Angel just in time to save him from Quanxi (sorry Nakamura). Aki's movement wasn't really a block, but more like a "GET THE **** OUT OF THAT AREA RIGHT NOW." It was pure guesswork on Aki's side and it just so happened that Quanxi decided to strike at that area.

For someone like Makima, seeing in the future that Gojo just points at her and she gets blown up would be pretty jarring. If Makima tried to do the same thing Aki did by generally just dodging the place she would die at, it wouldn't go well with her. Sukuna was still getting hit by Reds even though he sees it. With Makima pretty much dodging off of pure assumptions and luck, it wouldn't be long before Makima lands in a situation where Gojo shoots a Red, has it do a 180, shoots out a Blue, Makima Precogs and dodges Blue to prevent herself from getting pasted, and ends up getting pasted by the Red because it homed in on her.

 

[GodEarh206]

Gojo would know she's bad news and just punch her, or unleash pure Cursed Energy or Blue. And GG's

I'll tell you, Gojo can't spam RCT more than 5 times like the people above said, Makima Bio Hax simply weakens Gojo to the point where he becomes hard to maintain CT and reduces CE output, these are very difficult in combat, once you lose CE output you will be slowed down, Makima simply spams Bio Hax until Gojo can't continue to use RCT anymore, at that point, do you think Gojo can continue to regen his brain to fight Makima?

 

[Catbowtie]

I'll tell you, Gojo can't spam RCT more than 5 times like the people above said, Makima Bio Hax simply weakens Gojo to the point where he becomes hard to maintain CT and reduces CE output, these are very difficult in combat, once you lose CE output you will be slowed down, Makima simply spams Bio Hax until Gojo can't continue to use RCT anymore, at that point, do you think Gojo can continue to regenerate his brain to fight Makima?

Why would Makima continue to spam an ability Gojo healed up? From her POV, Gojo just rendered her biological hax ineffective. Why would she take another shot at it? She's not dumb. Why wouldn't she just try to reach into her big bag of tricks and do something else?

 

[GodEarh206]

Why would Makima continue to spam an ability Gojo healed up? From her POV, Gojo just rendered her biological hax ineffective. Why would she take another shot at it? Why wouldn't she just try to reach into her big bag of tricks and do something else?

Makima is a Gifted and she can see what the opponent she is fighting has and lacks, at this point Makima will see the weakness of RCT which is that he cannot restore his brain more than 5 times because it is a risky move, and if you say Makima doesn't spam then no, she actually used it one more time against Darkness Devil but at that time, Darkness's move was faster than her so Darkness couldn't get hit at that time. [Chapter 66]

 

[GunshyFever]

guesswork on Aki's side and it just so happened that Quanxi decided to strike at that area.

Aki foresaw their deaths and reacted accordingly based on what he saw. He knew to move to that position, likely because he had foreseen Angel being split in half. That’s exactly why Aki told Angel to immediately go on the defensive and jumped in to add some additional power to that defense. In no world is this guesswork, Aki’s entire motto when using this ability is "make the best call", as shown in his fight with Reze.

Now, give Aki's auto-precog to someone with reaction speed 17x faster than Gojo, and you get Makima.

 

[Catbowtie]

Makima is a Gifted and she can see what the opponent she is fighting has and lacks, at this point Makima will see the weakness of RCT which is that she cannot restore her brain more than 5 times because it is a risky move, and if you say Makima doesn't spam then no, she actually used it one more time against Darkness Devil but at that time, Darkness's move was faster than her so Darkness couldn't get hit at that time. [Chapter 66]

...see the weakness of an ability she cannot see nor understand? You're trying to discretely give Makima meta knowledge. Okay okay, tell me by what reasoning can Makima understand that Gojo's RCT (an ability under a power system she has no idea about) has a weakness that he cannot heal more than 5 times despite not knowing how Gojo is healing the brain damage and Gojo giving no indication that he was visibly affected by it. She can't sense Cursed Energy.

She doesn't know about RCT. She doesn't know that it's risky for sorcerers to heal brain damage more than 5 times. Under what logic can Makima deduce that Gojo cannot do his miraculous healing ability SPECIFICALLY on his brain more than 5 times? Makima is more likely to think that Gojo has the same regenerative abilities as Hybrids than thinking to herself.

Aki foresaw their deaths and reacted accordingly based on what he saw. He knew to move to that position, likely because he had foreseen Angel being split in half. That’s exactly why Aki told Angel to immediately go on the defensive and jumped in to add some additional power to that defense. In no world is this guesswork, Aki’s entire motto when using this ability is "make the best call", as shown in his fight with Reze.

Now, give Aki's auto-precog to someone with reaction speed 17x faster than Gojo, and you get Makima.

I suppose guesswork wasn't the correct word to use for it, but moreso incredibly, INCREDIBLY limited knowledge of what's going to happen.

Aki just said to himself "If Angel stands there, he's going to die." Nothing else, so Aki says "Angel, get out of there." With Quanxi, it worked because I suspect she didn't expect Angel to move out of the way. With Gojo, if Makima Precogs and sees herself dying in the place she's in right now, gets out of the way, Gojo will simply react in real time and move the blue towards where she dodges to paste her anyway. All Gojo needs to do to make Makima's precog completely useless is to simply wave his hand towards the direction Makima moved towards when she dodged the initial attack.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Why would Makima continue to spam an ability Gojo healed up? From her POV, Gojo just rendered her biological hax ineffective. Why would she take another shot at it? She's not dumb. Why wouldn't she just try to reach into her big bag of tricks and do something else?

Uhh... She did against Darkness though? And it's not "ineffective" Gojo can't heal up like Darkness do, Makima is NOT dumb

 

[Catbowtie]

Uhh... She did against Darkness though? And it's not "ineffective" Gojo can't heal up like Darkness do, Makima is NOT dumb

Do you understand the mental gymnastics Makima would have to do to herself to do her biological hax four more times?

"Yes, Gojo just healed my brain damaging attack for the third time in a row and is still going strong. Surely two more times will do the trick"

In what universe would Makima think that?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Aki just said to himself "If Angel stands there, he's going to die." Nothing else, so Aki says "Angel, get out of there." With Quanxi, it worked because I suspect she didn't expect Angel to move out of the way. With Gojo, if Makima Precogs and sees herself dying in the place she's in right now, gets out of the way, Gojo will simply react in real time and move the blue towards where she dodges to paste her anyway. All Gojo needs to do to make Makima's precog completely useless is to simply wave his hand towards the direction Makima moved towards when she dodged the initial attack.

Assuming Gojo uses Blue that is, and it's not that their speed ain't equalized either, Sukuna could easily dodge that stuff, idk why Makima wouldn't. "invisible"? Makima easily notices how Gojo is trying to point towards her, simply follow that to dodge, or just foresee the future, easy game.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Do you understand the mental gymnastics Makima would have to do to herself to do her biological hax four more times?

"Yes, Gojo just healed my brain damaging attack for the third time in a row and is still going strong. Surely two more times will do the trick"

In what universe would Makima think that?

Uh... In the universe where Gojo is visibly having a hard time dealing with it while Makima could inconsequentially spams it? Like bro, if she did against Darkness and it basically fully healed instantly, then why wouldn't she do that to Gojo?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I do NOT want to read 9 pages of arguments. Can someone summarize the points? I'm of the opinion Gojo wins this mid-diff at most. But I wanna hear the other side's arguments first.

 

[Catbowtie]

Assuming Gojo uses Blue that is, and it's not that their speed ain't equalized either, Sukuna could easily dodge that stuff, idk why Makima wouldn't. "invisible"? Makima easily notices how Gojo is trying to point towards her, simply follow that to dodge, or just foresee the future, easy game.

Gojo using Blue is like top three things he starts with, with the other two being Red and Purple. Honorable Mention being Unlimited Void.

Let me put it like this:

If Gojo summons a blue directly on Makima and Makima foresees her death and gets out of the area, Gojo will simply have his blue go to wherever Makima went to and pull and crush her anyways. Makima can see the future, but once she decides to change it, she won't know what's going to happen next.

In the universe where Gojo is visibly having a hard time dealing with it while Makima could inconsequentially spams it? Like bro, if she did against Darkness and it basically fully healed instantly, then why wouldn't she do that to Gojo?

Did Makima use bio hax on Darkness Devil five times in a row for no reason? No? Why would she do it to Gojo then? And no, Gojo wouldn't "visibly having a hard time dealing with it," Makima will see Gojo bleed for a few seconds, then not anymore. We can literally see Gojo heal up brain damage in Shinjuku Showdown and look like he's okay right after.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I do NOT want to read 9 pages of arguments. Can someone summarize the points? I'm of the opinion Gojo wins this mid-diff at most. But I wanna hear the other side's arguments first.

Vote for someone that’ll stall this fight till 20 pages fr

 

[LaserPrecision]

Vote for someone that’ll stall this fight till 20 pages fr

I usually don't vote. But if I wanna hear more and it goes into grace I don't mind voting to keep things going longer.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Alright, I'm going to be the one to write Makima's win cons. Feel free to respond however you like or debunk them, since there's a chance I may or may not be active in this thread. I'll go through this bit by bit.

Important note - Makima can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with. Meaning once she takes control of a devil, she can use that devil’s abilities as her own, even after their death, as shown in the scans above. (This is one her profile) So please keep this in mind for the takes below.​

Makima's wincons​

1) Biological Manipulation -

Makima can mess with Gojo's internal organs, including critical ones like the brain. This can severely disrupt his ability to use RCT, focus during battle and formulate strategies, causing him to underperform and not fight at his full potential. This ability is rarely used a, but given that she's aware of Gojo’s threat level, it’s more likely she'll use the stronger version of this technique, a focused point attack.

Just to clarify: this is not accepted as "Bang," and in general, it should not be confused with "Bang." Now, this ability spontaneously explodes or severely disrupts the target's internal organs from the inside out. In the Chainsaw Man universe, it was powerful enough to harm the Darkness Devil, a Primal Fear. That alone implies Gojo is in serious danger if he gets hit by this, potentially resulting in instant death or at least incapacitation.

Makima tends to reserve this technique for powerful opponents like Primal Fears, as seen in her fight against the Darkness Devil, where it hindered him significantly. It's a real possibility that Gojo's high status would prompt Makima to use this win con to kill him or push him to the brink of death and utilize her Conquest. And no, Gojo "refreshing his mind" won’t help. Makima’s Conquest is supernatural and not tied to the brain in specific, it cannot be nullified by simply refreshing his brain with RCT and character's like Reze have done the same where they explode their brains, but still remain under the influence of Conquest.

2) BFR (Hell Devil ver) -

The Hell Devil does not require physical contact to remove opponents from the battlefield, which makes it especially useful. Simply removing Gojo bypasses the problem of Infinity, turning the obstacle and its source into a single issue that can be quickly resolved. Makima can achieve this by either forcing her Conquest ability onto the Hell Devil to make it do her bidding, as she typically does or by sacrificing multiple Devil Hunters, with the latter being the more reliable method.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used. Once Makima realizes she can’t harm Gojo with her primary attacks, such as "Bang," which is generally accepted as a form of telekinetic force, she may opt to remove the problem entirely by summoning the Hell Devil to drag Gojo into Hell, effectively neutralizing him.

2.1) BFR (Hell Devil + Princi) -

To make the ability execute more smoothly and efficiently, Makima can send Princi to Hell and order her to summon Gojo through one of her zippers. This makes the BFR far safer and more effective, minimizing the risk of pressured or tampered by Gojo.

2.2) BFR (Eternity Devil) -

This strategy is essentially a more refined version of the Prison Realm, think of it as Prison Realm 2.0 with bug fixes. All Makima needs to do is lure Gojo into a structure, such as a building or other infrastructure. She can do this using her animal manipulation abilities. Through lower lifeforms like a pack of rats, she can travel between locations and use them as mediums to lure Gojo into a chosen spot.

Once Gojo enters the targeted location, Makima can set up a trap using the Eternity Devil. She can then escape via her interdimensional travel while Gojo becomes trapped in a space similar to the Prison Realm, where he can be left to die. Notably, Makima can also prevent the Eternity Devil from revealing itself, as seen in the aquarium arc.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used, roughly on par with the Hell Devil tactic. If Makima realizes she can't deal with Gojo’s Infinity directly, she’s likely to lean into her versatility in her controlled abilities to remove him from the fight altogether.

3) Organic Manipulation -

This ability allows Makima, after drawing blood from her hand, to grow a mold inside Gojo's body, one that cannot be healed or regenerated. This serves as either an instant win con or a massive hindrance to Gojo’s focus, physical condition and overall performance.

Makima can also use this ability more creatively by directing her minions through this devil to grow mold in Gojo’s body from multiple angles, overwhelming him. This coordinated internal assault would ultimately result in Gojo’s death.

The likelihood of this ability being used is comparable to her other options for the same reason.

4) Cosmo -

Makima can give Gojo a taste of an All-Out Halloween, which, depending on the range, can either momentarily or permanently incapacitate him. If Gojo gets up close and personal with Makima, a single Halloween may be enough to affect him, albeit with reduced likely reduced effect. At longer range, the ability requires more time to charge, but guarantees total and permanent incapacitation, hence the term All-Out Halloween.

Unlike Makima’s other abilities, where she can creatively employ various minions through contracts, this technique is unique. It is solely exceptional to Cosmo and Makima, as it cannot be accessed through a standard devil contract. The change of it being used is the same as the others. Morso as a final rebound if needed.

Makima's Advanatges​

1) Reactions & Perception Advantage -
With speed equalization, the rules explicitly state:

Makima's combat speed is High Hypersonic+ (Mach 81.48), while her reaction speed scales massively above Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1390.67). Gojo's combat and reaction speed is listed at Mach 2.86.

This makes her reaction speeds alone 17x faster than Gojo's. So even under speed equalization, Makima's reaction speed is scaled down by the same multiplier as her combat speed.

Plus, Makima's Automatic Precognition, which allows her to see a few seconds into the future, grants her a tactical advantage. Not only can she predict Gojo’s next moves and react accordingly, but she can also perceive his actions before he even performs them, turning him into an open book.

2) Tactical Approach & Clairvoyance -
As stated on her profile:

In short, once Makima becomes aware of Gojo's status and realizes that controlling him directly isn’t viable, she will work from the shadows to analyze him and gauge the scope of his abilities. She’ll rely on her minions to observe strength and capabilities. Makima is an exceptionally quick and perceptive thinker whom is capable of formulating strategies and improvising with her powers in real time, as demonstrated during her fight with the Gun Devil.

And before anyone says anything: no, she did not prepare for that fight. There was no pre-battle planning for the initial takedown of the Gun Devil. What was actually prepared was the plan for Aki to become the vessel, having the Gun Devil’s corpse placed in his body and sent straight to Denji’s front door. That was orchestrated, not the battle itself.

So, once Makima has a solid understanding of Gojo’s mechanics, she will return to the battlefield and actively pursue him using her wide arsenal of options.

Also worth noting: Makima can read minds.
As stated on her profile:

She can eventually figure Gojo out, his abilities, how they work all through his own memories.

3) Enhanced Senses -
As stated on her profile:

With this, it’s clear that Makima effectively has all eyes on Gojo, constantly aware of his location and actions, whether through her own awareness or via her controlled minions. This constant surveillance allows her to anticipate and counter Gojo's strategies in real time.

Makima's Resistances​

1) Infinite Void -
As her profile states:

Prop's for resisting a stronger infinite void.

Conclusion​

Everything above outlines the various ways Makima can achieve victory. You're free to respond or debate these points using Gojo's abilities and showings, but based on the information provided, it's clear to me that Makima holds the tactical advantage, along with a versatile range of win cons and controlled abilities as well as a perception advantage.

For these reasons, I'm casting my vote for Makima.

@LaserPrecision here

 

[Catbowtie]

Castorice I'm pretty sure Razor rebutted all of them so it's outdated lol.

 

[Epyriel]

I do NOT want to read 9 pages of arguments. Can someone summarize the points? I'm of the opinion Gojo wins this mid-diff at most. But I wanna hear the other side's arguments first.

Basically Gojo’s argument is that he quickly figures out punches won’t cut it and pastes her with red or HP.

Makima’s argument is that she has a massive advantage in reaction speed so will quickly figure out her regular attacks won’t cut it and BFR him with the Hell Devil, or damage his brain through Bio Hax.