Satoru Gojo (The Honored One) Vs Makima (The Control Devil) (Jujutsu Kaisen Vs Chainsaw Man) [49-37-7]

[Epyriel]

The only reason Gojo didn’t start with Hollow Purple against Sukuna is because he would’ve sensed it and dodged it. Gojo in-character uses Hollow Purple pretty quickly (used it nigh-instantly against Hanami)

Against Hanami he was in a time crunch against a known opponent.

Against an unknown opponent like Jogo he was fairly passive and baited out what Jogo could do for most of the fight.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Dude the thread is only 4 hours old and there’s already 4 pages

 

[Arkansalter2]

For Gojo’s attacks most of it doesn’t matter since she will just regenerate from them

She can't regenerate from being insta-pasted by red, getting sucked into nothing by blue, or getting erased by hollow purple.

But I'm going with Mr. Honored One here.
JJK supps forget that all CE attacks are invisible. Sure, Makima has higher reaction speed but her enhanced senses only covered like far sight seeing and all that type of good stuff, not seeing invisible things. She can't react to what she can't see. She'll know what would happen, she'll know when it's coming, but she doesn't know what's coming.
So for all that Makima knows, before she knows it, she's either insta-succed by Blue, insta-paste/misted by red, or just erased by purple.

Honored one, High Diff.

 

[GunshyFever]

Mmmm one problem.
How is Makima reacting to invisible attacks?

Auto Precog. (Check the advantages section for more)

 

[Arkansalter2]

Dude the thread is only 4 hours old and there’s already 4 pages

 

[Chariot190]

She used it as soon as she met Denji and thought about it on the car ride to a udon restaurant. We know that. So I meant it depends on how much time you think Makima spent in the building when she initially met Denji.

Idk a bit? Like didnt you say she can do it from interdim range?

If it's the same ability, then we have legit no clue as she couldve started before he even walked in, coupled with the lack of doing so in a lot of places it'd at least be useful, none of which quick, in combat, or on the fly, but even in that scene itself it wouldve been at least a bit.

Based on just what we see, id def say like, obviously not a day or some shit, but probably at least a few minutes? That or maybe there's caveats, shit ton of devils have that and mind reading doesnt seem like a "control" thing imo given there's a lot of fears mind reading could be tied to.
Kind of the problem with using abilities that very obviously have some limitations, but wtf those limitations even are we dont know.

Also someone said mold needs blood right? And prior knowledge of him being the strongest doesnt mean prior knowledge of his kit. So those seem sus.

Besides that the rest of your slop looks ok? Not voting yet but kinda leaning toward her.

 

[Robo432343]

bro
whats the point of the precog if she cant even see the invisible CE

 

[Arkansalter2]

Auto Precog. (Check the advantages section for more)

Future devil contract needs to be signed first.

 

[Chariot190]

bro
whats the point of the precog if she cant even see the invisible CE

King Crimson when he precogs Star Platinum (he saw himself randomly and spontaneously explode ).

 

[GunshyFever]

Idk a bit? Like didnt you say she can do it from interdim range?

Don't get her Conquest mixed up with her mind reading, they're separate abilities.

 

[GunshyFever]

Future devil contract needs to be signed first.

Already covered this
Please just go read what I wrote, it's for your benefit.

 

[Chariot190]

Don't get her Conquest mixed up with her mind reading, they're separate abilities.

Then why even list "Was somehow able to discover the nature of Denji’s contract with Pochita, despite it all taking place within Denji’s mind. She's also able to connect her own senses with those of the ones she controls, even if they're in an entirely different dimension from her."

This means she only ever used it once in a vague, unknown, method with even a potential off screen time cut
Why's that even listed as mind reading, we have no idea how she got that info.

 

[GunshyFever]

whats the point

The ability to retaliate.

 

[Arkansalter2]

One thing.
How would Makima even counter invisible things or even find out what she's getting hit by? She won't be able to understand it if she nor her minions, can see it.
To her, it would feel like Makima would be getting hit by a bunch of nothing. I'm sorry but you really can't precog or counter what you can't see. Her enhances senses are only far sighted, not Neutral Vision.

 

[GunshyFever]

Then why even list "Was somehow able to discover the nature of Denji’s contract with Pochita, despite it all taking place within Denji’s mind.

Because she's reading his mind, this is where the feat comes from.

She's also able to connect her own senses with those of the ones she controls, even if they're in an entirely different dimension from her."

This means she only ever used it once in a vague, unknown, method with even a potential off screen time cut
Why's that even listed as mind reading, we have no idea how she got that info.

Keywords: Connect senses, those who she controls.

 

[GunshyFever]

One thing.
How would Makima even counter invisible things or even find out what she's getting hit by? She won't be able to understand it if she nor her minions, can see it.
To her, it would feel like Makima would be getting hit by a bunch of nothing. I'm sorry but you really can't precog or counter what you can't see. Her enhances senses are only far sighted, not Neutral Vision.

Blue and Red is just pull and push btw. She doesn't need to see it to retaliate.

Anyways, I said I wouldn't debate and here I am, I'll be here at the next misinterpretation, you guys can discuss the wincons amongst eachother.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Blue and Red is just pull and push btw. She doesn't need to see it to retaliate.

Anyways, I said I wouldn't debate and here I am, I'll be here at the next misinterpretation, you guys can discuss the wincons amongst eachother.

Stay here so it becomes 20 pages

 

[Razor]

Alright, I'm going to be the one to write Makima's win cons. Feel free to respond however you like or debunk them, since there's a chance I may or may not be active in this thread. I'll go through this bit by bit.

Important note - Makima can also use the abilities of those under her influence, whether they are alive or deceased, even if the abilities originate from devils they had contracts with. Meaning once she takes control of a devil, she can use that devil’s abilities as her own, even after their death, as shown in the scans above. (This is one her profile) So please keep this in mind for the takes below.​

Makima's wincons​

1) Biological Manipulation -

Makima can mess with Gojo's internal organs, including critical ones like the brain. This can severely disrupt his ability to use RCT, focus during battle and formulate strategies, causing him to underperform and not fight at his full potential. This ability is rarely used a, but given that she's aware of Gojo’s threat level, it’s more likely she'll use the stronger version of this technique, a focused point attack.

Just to clarify: this is not accepted as "Bang," and in general, it should not be confused with "Bang." Now, this ability spontaneously explodes or severely disrupts the target's internal organs from the inside out. In the Chainsaw Man universe, it was powerful enough to harm the Darkness Devil, a Primal Fear. That alone implies Gojo is in serious danger if he gets hit by this, potentially resulting in instant death or at least incapacitation.

Makima tends to reserve this technique for powerful opponents like Primal Fears, as seen in her fight against the Darkness Devil, where it hindered him significantly. It's a real possibility that Gojo's high status would prompt Makima to use this win con to kill him or push him to the brink of death and utilize her Conquest. And no, Gojo "refreshing his mind" won’t help. Makima’s Conquest is supernatural and not tied to the brain in specific, it cannot be nullified by simply refreshing his brain with RCT and character's like Reze have done the same where they explode their brains, but still remain under the influence of Conquest.

2) BFR (Hell Devil ver) -

The Hell Devil does not require physical contact to remove opponents from the battlefield, which makes it especially useful. Simply removing Gojo bypasses the problem of Infinity, turning the obstacle and its source into a single issue that can be quickly resolved. Makima can achieve this by either forcing her Conquest ability onto the Hell Devil to make it do her bidding, as she typically does or by sacrificing multiple Devil Hunters, with the latter being the more reliable method.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used. Once Makima realizes she can’t harm Gojo with her primary attacks, such as "Bang," which is generally accepted as a form of telekinetic force, she may opt to remove the problem entirely by summoning the Hell Devil to drag Gojo into Hell, effectively neutralizing him.

2.1) BFR (Hell Devil + Princi) -

To make the ability execute more smoothly and efficiently, Makima can send Princi to Hell and order her to summon Gojo through one of her zippers. This makes the BFR far safer and more effective, minimizing the risk of pressured or tampered by Gojo.

2.2) BFR (Eternity Devil) -

This strategy is essentially a more refined version of the Prison Realm, think of it as Prison Realm 2.0 with bug fixes. All Makima needs to do is lure Gojo into a structure, such as a building or other infrastructure. She can do this using her animal manipulation abilities. Through lower lifeforms like a pack of rats, she can travel between locations and use them as mediums to lure Gojo into a chosen spot.

Once Gojo enters the targeted location, Makima can set up a trap using the Eternity Devil. She can then escape via her interdimensional travel while Gojo becomes trapped in a space similar to the Prison Realm, where he can be left to die. Notably, Makima can also prevent the Eternity Devil from revealing itself, as seen in the aquarium arc.

This ability has a moderate chance of being used, roughly on par with the Hell Devil tactic. If Makima realizes she can't deal with Gojo’s Infinity directly, she’s likely to lean into her versatility in her controlled abilities to remove him from the fight altogether.

3) Organic Manipulation -

This ability allows Makima, after drawing blood from her hand, to grow a mold inside Gojo's body, one that cannot be healed or regenerated. This serves as either an instant win con or a massive hindrance to Gojo’s focus, physical condition and overall performance.

Makima can also use this ability more creatively by directing her minions through this devil to grow mold in Gojo’s body from multiple angles, overwhelming him. This coordinated internal assault would ultimately result in Gojo’s death.

The likelihood of this ability being used is comparable to her other options for the same reason.

4) Cosmo -

Makima can give Gojo a taste of an All-Out Halloween, which, depending on the range, can either momentarily or permanently incapacitate him. If Gojo gets up close and personal with Makima, a single Halloween may be enough to affect him, albeit with reduced likely reduced effect. At longer range, the ability requires more time to charge, but guarantees total and permanent incapacitation, hence the term All-Out Halloween.

Unlike Makima’s other abilities, where she can creatively employ various minions through contracts, this technique is unique. It is solely exceptional to Cosmo and Makima, as it cannot be accessed through a standard devil contract. The change of it being used is the same as the others. Morso as a final rebound if needed.

Makima's Advanatges​

1) Reactions & Perception Advantage -
With speed equalization, the rules explicitly state:

Makima's combat speed is High Hypersonic+ (Mach 81.48), while her reaction speed scales massively above Massively Hypersonic+ (Mach 1390.67). Gojo's combat and reaction speed is listed at Mach 2.86.

This makes her reaction speeds alone 17x faster than Gojo's. So even under speed equalization, Makima's reaction speed is scaled down by the same multiplier as her combat speed.

Plus, Makima's Automatic Precognition, which allows her to see a few seconds into the future, grants her a tactical advantage. Not only can she predict Gojo’s next moves and react accordingly, but she can also perceive his actions before he even performs them, turning him into an open book.

2) Tactical Approach & Clairvoyance -
As stated on her profile:

In short, once Makima becomes aware of Gojo's status and realizes that controlling him directly isn’t viable, she will work from the shadows to analyze him and gauge the scope of his abilities. She’ll rely on her minions to observe strength and capabilities. Makima is an exceptionally quick and perceptive thinker whom is capable of formulating strategies and improvising with her powers in real time, as demonstrated during her fight with the Gun Devil.

And before anyone says anything: no, she did not prepare for that fight. There was no pre-battle planning for the initial takedown of the Gun Devil. What was actually prepared was the plan for Aki to become the vessel, having the Gun Devil’s corpse placed in his body and sent straight to Denji’s front door. That was orchestrated, not the battle itself.

So, once Makima has a solid understanding of Gojo’s mechanics, she will return to the battlefield and actively pursue him using her wide arsenal of options.

Also worth noting: Makima can read minds.
As stated on her profile:

She can eventually figure Gojo out, his abilities, how they work all through his own memories.

3) Enhanced Senses -
As stated on her profile:

With this, it’s clear that Makima effectively has all eyes on Gojo, constantly aware of his location and actions, whether through her own awareness or via her controlled minions. This constant surveillance allows her to anticipate and counter Gojo's strategies in real time.

Makima's Resistances​

1) Infinite Void -
As her profile states:

Prop's for resisting a stronger infinite void.

Conclusion​

Everything above outlines the various ways Makima can achieve victory. You're free to respond or debate these points using Gojo's abilities and showings, but based on the information provided, it's clear to me that Makima holds the tactical advantage, along with a versatile range of win cons and controlled abilities as well as a perception advantage.

For these reasons, I'm casting my vote for Makima.

Here we go.

Bio manipulation- This attack is not only a rarity for Makima to do but there's so many unknown variable. The one thing I'd like to refute about gunshy's reasoning her is the fact that it harmed the darkness devil. While technically true, the consensus of the entire DD vs makima fight was that DD was toying with her. Given the fact that Makima doesn't have the same rating as the darkness devil, I think the profiles seem to agree with me here. If this attack really did scale in any way to the darkness devil she should have at least 7-B with telekinesis or have dura neg with the attack linked, instead her durability negation is applied to her chains only. In both instances where this attack was used the target did not immediately die so there's no saying that Gojo would immediately die as well. Due to the many unknown factors regarding this ability and the fact that Makima has started with it only once makes me think its too inconsistent to be relied upon as a wincon. We don't even know in what manner the destruction happens, something that the profiles make note of.

BFR- This is how the hell devil transports its targets to hell directly, it could've been an artistic choice or maybe the requirements for the hell devil to put someone into hell and get them out of hell are different, whatever the case may be, when transporting individuals to hell, the hell devil has to literally grab them or at least manifest a hand that transports them there.

Correct me if I am wrong but Makima has never transported anybody other than herself to hell or another dimension via princi, and since she and princi share a telepathic connection this is likely limited to her only. If Makima could teleport anybody anywhere with the use of Princi, I'm pretty sure the ability would've came in handy a few times in the story.

Eternity devil's ability to conceal itself is only available in it's part 2 incarnation, not the part 1 incarnation that Makima has access to. Because of this, just like in part 1 Gojo would eventually spot the eternity devil and force it to Eject gojo just like denji did.

Organic manipulation- There is the issue of Makima obtaining blood from Gojo in the first place, since most of her kit can't bypass infinity. Though even if this attack lands I'd argue it might even be a hindrance to Makima than a wincon. It doesn't kill immediately and Gojo's RCT should prolong his time. As stated by the two goons, you can heal the damage by the mold, you just can't remove it. If Gojo is made aware of this then it would just make him bloodlusted and use one of his moves that could paste Makima, ending the fight. Also Gojo literally stood in malevolent shrine and continued fighting like nothing was happening to him, I don't think some mold would hinder his performance at all.

Cosmo- I think this one is pretty simple, Gojo won't just allow her to charge it up. Cosmo requires a good amount of time to fully take effect, and even if Makima uses it someplace far away, Gojo can just reinforce his ears with CE and block the noise, rendering the ability useless. Similar to how jujutsu sorcerers can nullify cursed speech with the same technique.

Now onto Makima's advantages;
Reaction speed and precog- Yeah this is a fair advantage, though with limited combat speed and inferior travel speed because of Gojo's blue, her precog can only go so far. Even if she sees or reacts to Gojo's moves that doesn't mean it won't affect her or she'd be able to get out instantly.

Its also possible for Gojo to grow a lot stronger throughout the course of the fight if she keeps sending fodders to him because this means Gojo has a chance to land black flashes.

Tactical approach and clairvoyance- Makima is a pretty smart fighter but Gojo surpasses her in this category. In his fight against Sukuna he has been able to get the upper hand against Sukuna, who has full knowledge on his abilities and a technique tailor made to counter his, not to mention this guy has been alive for a thousand years. Especially on the spot strategies where Gojo excels at. Like I said earlier, if she tries to teleport away she will still be in Gojo's visual range thanks to the six eyes, with the use of his own teleportation he can close this distance easily.

Enhanced senses- Gojo has this like x10. The six eyes basically allows him to know where she's at all times as well and even provide insight on her capabilities and whatnot. Like someone else mentioned earlier, attacks with cursed energy would be invisible to Makima which means Gojo holds the advantage when it comes to sensory abilities.

I think, for a final note, Makima definitely has wincons but I'd argue they are just far less consistent than Gojo's. Gojo kinda just has to use red or HP and she's done. Meanwhile her wincons are all inconsistent and she has so many moves to choose from. If she tries studying Gojo she might actually have a hard time figuring out what is the deal with the infinity barrier and waste her time using abilities that won't work. The fact that one red is all it takes for her to lose meanwhile all her wincons require a ton of planning, insight on gojo's abilities to know what works and what doesn't, makes me lean towards Gojo more. So I'm casting my vote for Gojo.

 

[Razor]

I was more referring to her having more time to react to how her own attacks are affecting Gojo and change tactics accordingly.

For Gojo’s attacks most of it doesn’t matter since she will just regenerate from them, and then when he decides to use HP he’s essentially won. It is just a matter of how quickly he realizes he needs to do so.

HP, red and pretty sure max blue should be able to one shot her past her regeneration threshold. His only attack that won't bypass her regen is the basic blue which he almost never uses as an attack anyways, and mainly uses it for mobility and H2H.

 

[GunshyFever]

Here we go.

Bio manipulation- This attack is not only a rarity for Makima to do but there's so many unknown variable. The one thing I'd like to refute about gunshy's reasoning her is the fact that it harmed the darkness devil. While technically true, the consensus of the entire DD vs makima fight was that DD was toying with her. Given the fact that Makima doesn't have the same rating as the darkness devil, I think the profiles seem to agree with me here. If this attack really did scale in any way to the darkness devil she should have at least 7-B with telekinesis or have dura neg with the attack linked, instead her durability negation is applied to her chains only. In both instances where this attack was used the target did not immediately die so there's no saying that Gojo would immediately die as well. Due to the many unknown factors regarding this ability and the fact that Makima has started with it only once makes me think its too inconsistent to be relied upon as a wincon. We don't even know in what manner the destruction happens, something that the profiles make note of.

Biological Manipulation is a subcategory of durability negation, hence why it wasn't applicable as AP. It still harmed to Darkness Devil enough to completely render it incapable of fighting, albeit for a few seconds.

BFR- This is how the hell devil transports its targets to hell directly, it could've been an artistic choice or maybe the requirements for the hell devil to put someone into hell and get them out of hell are different, whatever the case may be, when transporting individuals to hell, the hell devil has to literally grab them or at least manifest a hand that transports them there.

And my original claim shows that he doesn't have to do it that way. Physical touch isn't a requirement. The only difference is the angle.

Correct me if I am wrong but Makima has never transported anybody other than herself to hell or another dimension via princi, and since she and princi share a telepathic connection this is likely limited to her only. If Makima could teleport anybody anywhere with the use of Princi, I'm pretty sure the ability would've came in handy a few times in the story.

In the scan, Makima asked Princi to "bring her". It's not a limitation just because we only see Princi teleport Makima. That's cherry picking, it's still a viable option Makima has.

Eternity devil's ability to conceal itself is only available in it's part 2 incarnation, not the part 1 incarnation that Makima has access to. Because of this, just like in part 1 Gojo would eventually spot the eternity devil and force it to Eject gojo just like denji did.

Wrong. Part 1's Eternity Devil got its power from the Gun Devil. Denji took the gun devil fragment from it, leaving the eternity that Makima controlled to be just like Part 2's ver.

Organic manipulation- There is the issue of Makima obtaining blood from Gojo in the first place,

Hold on there chief. She does not need blood from Gojo, thr contractee uses their own blood. Be careful when your reading.

Other than that, stand tall with your other args, if that's what you believe then go for Gojo. Im staying with Makima, however, just clearing up these misconceptions.

 

[Razor]

Biological Manipulation is a subcategory of durability negation, hence why it wasn't applicable as AP. It still harmed to Darkness Devil enough to completely render it incapable of fighting, albeit for a few seconds.

And my original claim shows that he doesn't have to do it that way. Physical touch isn't a requirement. The only difference is the angle.

In the scan, Makima asked Princi to "bring her". It's not a limitation just because we only see Princi teleport Makima. That's cherry picking, it's still a viable option Makima has.

Wrong. Part 1's Eternity Devil got its power from the Gun Devil. Denji took the gun devil fragment from it, leaving the eternity that Makima controlled to be just like Part 2's ver.

Hold on there chief. She does not need blood from Gojo, thr contractee uses their own blood. Be careful when your reading.

Other than that, stand tall with your other args, if that's what you believe then go for Gojo. Im staying with Makima, however, just clearing up these misconceptions.

I see, thanks for clearing that up. The issues I have with the wincon still hold up tho.

Not really, it just wasn't shown that way. They could've been transported from hell to earth using the hand, they just didn't show us. Plus Makima's hand being shown seems like an indication to me that the hell devil's hand transported them. The profiles even describe the ability as the hell devil manifesting a hand to directly transport them to hell. At best the conditions for sending one to hell and retrieving one from hell are different, at worst its just an artistic choice.

And how does that mean that Princi can bring other people? The statement is still valid whether or not princi has the ability to bring others. She hasn't been shown teleporting anyone else and nothing states or implies that, so she can't, as far as the wiki is concerned.


The eternity devil's ability to conceal itself is present in its second incarnation and has nothing to do with the gun devil fragments. Plus After denji took the gun devil fragment, it died and reincarnated at an unknown time period but only made an appearance in part 2. Meaning Makima never had control over the eternity devil that could mask its presence.

That's my bad

 

[Razor]

Also I just wanna point out that Makima's resistance to cosmo's ability seems iffy to me. Quanxi has stated that she wanted a truce and her girls follow her every order, even in hell one of them asked for her permission to kill themselves. If cosmo was really trying to use halloween on Makima it would be out of character. Cosmo just talks like that. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think that holds up, it should at least be a "possibly" imo.

 

[Chariot190]

Because she's reading his mind, this is where the feat comes from.

The feat literally says "somehow", it doesn't even seem clearcut that's HOW she did it? And if that's the ONLY time she ever did it, we dont know how she did it, and more, idk man I just wouldnt use it in a match.
Like it's already extremely generous, by that point in the story she could have easily deduced all that herself tbh and is just reiterating it to him.

I don't wanna be that dude, but I don't think I'd even list it at all ngl.

Keywords: Connect senses, those who she controls.

I mean yeah I got that, just confused why it's in the same chunk or even quoted for this match if it doesnt apply or is a dif ability.
Also pretty sure shared senses is something else, Jotaro, Bondrewd, and more all that that.


Ig in this case, it just depends who whips out their meme hax first. I wanna say Makima maybe, because she'd precog herself getting obliterfucked by some imperceptible force and probably panic and go for her absolute best shit (which by then she'd prob have an idea he has some infinity slop that negs attacks that need to cover distance).
Though precog isn't exactly passive either so if Gojo whips his out before she gets to hard pressed, she might just die.

Like 60/40 atm.

 

[GunshyFever]

I see, thanks for clearing that up. The issues I have with the wincon still hold up tho.

I don't really see the issues you mean, I described how it worked and how well it would work and why pretty well in my explanation.

Not really, it just wasn't shown that way. They could've been transported from hell to earth using the hand, they just didn't show us. Plus Makima's hand being shown seems like an indication to me that the hell devil's hand transported them. The profiles even describe the ability as the hell devil manifesting a hand to directly transport them to hell. At best the conditions for sending one to hell and retrieving one from hell are different, at worst its just an artistic choice.

"Could’ve", and with the wave of a hand, everyone was sent back. If Fujimoto wanted it to consistently be a hand-grabbing ability, he could have shown that through the panel layout. Instead, he presented a spread panel that suggests otherwise. Artistic choice? Possibly, but that "possibly" doesn't actually carry much weight here. We were shown otherwise, therefore he know that he is capable of doing otherwise, you can't discredit it without substantial evidence of why other than "yeah it was shown to be like that for 2 of the 3 times it was drawn, so like that's gotta be how it works".

And how does that mean that Princi can bring other people? The statement is still valid whether or not princi has the ability to bring others. She hasn't been shown teleporting anyone else and nothing states or implies that, so she can't, as far as the wiki is concerned.

What makes her limited to only teleporting Makima? Princi’s secondary ability is to teleport people through her zipper. It’s not Makima’s ability, it’s Princi’s. So I have no clue what you’re insinuating here. Your basically saying "the spider devil was born with a built in teleporter for the Control Devil" which just makes you seen disingenuous.

The eternity devil's ability to conceal itself is present in its second incarnation and has nothing to do with the gun devil fragments. Plus After denji took the gun devil fragment, it died and reincarnated at an unknown time period but only made an appearance in part 2. Meaning Makima never had control over the eternity devil that could mask its presence.

That's my bad

Denji also sawed the Zombie Devil in half and yet it still appeared under Makima’s control later on, along with several other deceased devils, which she literally lined up in a hallway to show Denji. That’s part of her established profile. This isn’t new information to you, considering you’ve argued using it before.

I feel like you're significantly discrediting Makima’s abilities to make her win cons seem faulty, which is misleading in this context. The only part I didn’t respond to was when you discussed Gojo’s win cons, because those actually sounded credible. But I’m not going to write an essay trying to argue and discredit his feats by claiming they’re vague, limited by artistic choices or based mainly on things which should only be mentioned in a CRT.

 

[GunshyFever]

Also I just wanna point out that Makima's resistance to cosmo's ability seems iffy to me. Quanxi has stated that she wanted a truce and her girls follow her every order, even in hell one of them asked for her permission to kill themselves. If cosmo was really trying to use halloween on Makima it would be out of character. Cosmo just talks like that. Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think that holds up, it should at least be a "possibly" imo.

Less Gojo vs Makima, more CSM discussion thread or CRT

 

[GunshyFever]

The feat literally says "somehow", it doesn't even seem clearcut that's HOW she did it? And if that's the ONLY time she ever did it, we dont know how she did it, and more, idk man I just wouldnt use it in a match.
Like it's already extremely generous, by that point in the story she could have easily deduced all that herself tbh and is just reiterating it to him.

It’s not the only time she does it. In Part 2, her reincarnation Nayuta does it multiple times using her control chains, but that falls under the Conquest ability. Makima, on the other hand, directly enters Denji’s memories like she’s jumping into the fourth dimension, no control chains, she just does. After that panel she legit reminds that hey, "I find it interesting how the mind of children can hide memories" then reminds him that he killed is own father. Just go to the chapter and take like a 30 second read. Pretty much covers everything.

I mean yeah I got that, just confused why it's in the same chunk or even quoted for this match if it doesnt apply or is a dif ability.
Also pretty sure shared senses is something else, Jotaro, Bondrewd, and more all that that.


Ig in this case, it just depends who whips out their meme hax first. I wanna say Makima maybe, because she'd precog herself getting obliterfucked by some imperceptible force and probably panic and go for her absolute best shit (which by then she'd prob have an idea he has some infinity slop that negs attacks that need to cover distance).
Though precog isn't exactly passive either so if Gojo whips his out before she gets to hard pressed, she might just die.

Like 60/40 atm.

Her reaction speed is like 17x his speed. Much more all her other advantages. Not gonna debate it but the wincons are there, but now for both sides now ig? All you need is your own reasoning.

I know eventually Gojo will prolly end up winning cuz its Gojo.

 

[Razor]

I don't really see the issues you mean, I described how it worked and how well it would work and why pretty well in my explanation.

"Could’ve", and with the wave of a hand, everyone was sent back. If Fujimoto wanted it to consistently be a hand-grabbing ability, he could have shown that through the panel layout. Instead, he presented a spread panel that suggests otherwise. Artistic choice? Possibly, but that "possibly" doesn't actually carry much weight here. We were shown otherwise, therefore he know that he is capable of doing otherwise, you can't discredit it without substantial evidence of why other than "yeah it was shown to be like that for 2 of the 3 times it was drawn, so like that's gotta be how it works".

What makes her limited to only teleporting Makima? Princi’s secondary ability is to teleport people through her zipper. It’s not Makima’s ability, it’s Princi’s. So I have no clue what you’re insinuating here. Your basically saying "the spider devil was born with a built in teleporter for the Control Devil" which just makes you seen disingenuous.

Denji also sawed the Zombie Devil in half and yet it still appeared under Makima’s control later on, along with several other deceased devils, which she literally lined up in a hallway to show Denji. That’s part of her established profile. This isn’t new information to you, considering you’ve argued using it before.

I feel like you're significantly discrediting Makima’s abilities to make her win cons seem faulty, which is misleading in this context. The only part I didn’t respond to was when you discussed Gojo’s win cons, because those actually sounded credible. But I’m not going to write an essay trying to argue and discredit his feats by claiming they’re vague, limited by artistic choices or based mainly on things which should only be mentioned in a CRT.

My primary issues were: 1. She's only ever started with it once. 2. The specifics of the ability are still unknown. Like if the target needs to stay put like the darkness devil was for it to work. 3. What decides the potency of the move, can she even alter it or is it relative? It didn't kill DD and it didn't kill the random goon she used it against as well (not immediately that is).

We were not shown "otherwise" we weren't shown anything at all. In the panel you sent, the manner in which they were transported wasn't shown. One panel they were in hell, the second panel was makima's hand, then right after that Aki was lying on the roof. I don't see how or why we should use this one instance of the teleportation being off screened and it possibly not involving the hell devil's hands instead of the multiple instances where we do see how the process works and all of them show that the devil's hand has to be manifested.

She and Makima share a telepathic bond, and this ability would be useful if it could be used to teleport other people. I don't think Princi was shown teleporting others out of her own volition as well, she has only ever used this ability with Makima and specifically by Makima's orders. Though I'll concede this point since the profiles seem to think it can teleport anybody.

This isn't really what I argued before, and its not what I'm saying right now. The Eternity devil died and his reincarnation that has never interacted with Makima showcased an ability, you cannot use the ability of this second incarnation of the eternity devil and apply it to Makima when she doesn't even exist at the same time as this eternity devil. The Zombie devil could've lived the encounter, in the wiki it implies Denji didn't kill the zombie devil or it lived somehow. However the Eternity devil is a different case, its literally a different version of it with different showings. The Zombie devil that Denji killed and the one under makima's control showcased similar abilities meaning it didn't die and reincarnate like the eternity devil did.

Cause there is no vagueness with Gojo's wincons. Which is primarily why I think he wins more often than not. Like there's no planning or any requirements or whatever to his wincons. HP lands? Makima's dead. Red lands? Makima's dead. Max blue lands? Makima's dead. Makima dies to his 3 main attacks, like I said the only attack of his that doesn't actually kill Makima is basic blue which he almost never uses as an actual projectile attack by the time of shinjuku and basic H2H punches (And UV). I'm not discrediting Makima's wincons, the hell devil's hand has been explicitly shown to manifest whenever Makima uses the ability, the profiles again even describes the ability as being used here. If my points that don't align with the profile can't be used here (Which I agree with) then we should also conclude this specific point because the profiles blatantly say that the hell devil's ability works by manifesting a hand

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Makima has 1 second of extra time, her own teleportation (that is shown to also be extremely fast in her vs Gun Devil fight, way enough for her to activate within the 1 second timeframe) will help her get unlimited extra preptime. Gojo has no way of reaching Makima after she ran away, his teleportation is also blocked by Gege's messed up attempt to nerf him (like seriously, wth are the "certain conditions"?).

Makima has too many ways to insta kill Gojo, has way more range and is overall way more versatile than him

I vote Makima, seriously I don't see any non-headcanon way of Gojo winning, his six eyes don't even have enough argument to reach the kind of range that Makima has with her bare eyes either.

Edit: Reminder that Hanami easily ran away from bro's HP, that's just sad...

Makima vs Gojo is a 9/10, either Gojo insta kill Makima or Makima goes batman mode and preptime the heck out of Gojo.

 

[Razor]

Makima has 1 second of extra time, her own teleportation (that is shown to also be extremely fast in her vs Gun Devil fight, way enough for her to activate within the 1 second timeframe) will help her get unlimited extra preptime. Gojo has no way of reaching Makima after she ran away, his teleportation is also blocked by Gege's messed up attempt to nerf him (like seriously, wth are the "certain conditions"?).

Makima has too many ways to insta kill Gojo, has way more range and is overall way more versatile than him

I vote Makima, seriously I don't see any non-headcanon way of Gojo winning, his six eyes don't even have enough argument to reach the kind of range that Makima has with her bare eyes either.

Edit: Reminder that Hanami easily ran away from bro's HP, that's just sad...

Makima vs Gojo is a 9/10, either Gojo insta kill Makima or Makima goes batman mode and preptime the heck out of Gojo.

What are these ways to insta kill Gojo? Her main wincon rn is BFR. Most of her stuff gets blocked by infinity, her telekinesis doesn't have enough AP. It's BFR, or the dura neg she used against the darkness devil. Gojo's teleportation isn't blocked here either, there's no reason he can't use it if Makima runs away. And how does Makima have higher range with her bare eyes?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

And idk why people even argue that Red or Purple could insta kill Makima tbh, like Purple I can kinda understand, but Red?

Makima's healing shouldn't be limited to her cells at all, Kishibe himself stated that Makima is untouchable, because she can't be killed. And this statement has the same weight of that of Falling's statement, it's not that the Fire Devil was eaten by Pochita or anything right? Makima could easily be killed by literally burning all her cells in a blast furnace, and despite having 2109381038109 of those around the country, Kishibe still considered Makima to be unkillable and even relied on Denji's crazy idea to bypass it, like that's their only choice of killing Makima.

It's not that Makima was untouchable because she's so strong either, they could easily do so as shown, and even after Denji's successfully and completely neutralized Makima, the thought of "yeah dude your plan seems too risky, just burn her bruv" never came across any of their mind (even Denji who used "the power of light rahhhh"), that just shows.

For that reason, Red should never be able to kill Makima, Purple can't either, I seriously don't think why people even consider Purple being anything but just a ball of destruction that Gege gave some wobbly gobbly physics stuff to make it seems like a big deal, but all of those wobbly gobbly physics stuff doesn't make Hollow Purple be anything more than a destructive ball of something something, Gege never elaborated and Refused to do so.

What are these ways to insta kill Gojo? Her main wincon rn is BFR. Most of her stuff gets blocked by infinity, her telekinesis doesn't have enough AP. It's BFR, or the dura neg she used against the darkness devil. Gojo's teleportation isn't blocked here either, there's no reason he can't use it if Makima runs away. And how does Makima have higher range with her bare eyes?

I already explained why Gojo's teleportation does not help him in this situation. Makima's teleportation has shown way better range than Gojo's, she could do it way faster than him without needing to rely on some "certain conditions" either and unless you fix that first, we can't argue for his teleportation.

Makima could spot Gun 500km away with her bare eyes, Gojo never did anything remotely similar with Six Eyes. Furthermore, the "Gojo teleported to Kenjaku from Japan Trench" was all offscreened, so you can't argue using any of that either (like seriously, I felt iffy enough with the earthquake calc already), and that feat is not close enough to what Makima could do either. Gojo's Six Eyes probably spot Kenjaku only thanks to it's ability to spot CE, and Makima does not have that stuff in this fight, so even more iffy to say Gojo could chase Makima when bro has no way to even find her.

Anyways, all I see is headcanon for Gojo and solid feats for Makima, I say no further than Makima solos 9/10.

 

[GunshyFever]

My primary issues were: 1. She's only ever started with it once. 2. The specifics of the ability are still unknown. Like if the target needs to stay put like the darkness devil was for it to work. 3. What decides the potency of the move, can she even alter it or is it relative? It didn't kill DD and it didn't kill the random goon she used it against as well (not immediately that is).

She uses it several times during the anime if that helps. But I already explained why her using it was a likely approach, it's included in the text I wrote. You're too focused on questioning things we don't know, rather than using what we were actually shown. Nothing else matters in this context. All we know is that she had it and used it the way I described. It's exactly what I said originally.

Your confusion comes from overthinking it. If you want to brainstorm how the ability might work, the discussion thread is open, you could even start a CRT if you wanted. No one's stopping you.

The potency of the move lies in the fact that it can harm Primal Devils by targeting all their vital organs. It's accepted as a stronger extension of her glare-based bio hax. The way I described it doesn't contradict anything you've said.

We were not shown "otherwise" we weren't shown anything at all. In the panel you sent, the manner in which they were transported wasn't shown. One panel they were in hell, the second panel was makima's hand, then right after that Aki was lying on the roof. I don't see how or why we should use this one instance of the teleportation being off screened and it possibly not involving the hell devil's hands instead of the multiple instances where we do see how the process works and all of them show that the devil's hand has to be manifested.

Yes, yes it was. I described it too. The Hell Devil's hand takes up the entire panel as Makima completes the contract and asks him to send them back and with that wave they return. Your once again overthinking it.

She and Makima share a telepathic bond, and this ability would be useful if it could be used to teleport other people. I don't think Princi was shown teleporting others out of her own volition as well, she has only ever used this ability with Makima and specifically by Makima's orders. Though I'll concede this point since the profiles seem to think it can teleport anybody.

If you concede, I won't push the issue.

This isn't really what I argued before, and its not what I'm saying right now. The Eternity devil died and his reincarnation that has never interacted with Makima showcased an ability, you cannot use the ability of this second incarnation of the eternity devil and apply it to Makima when she doesn't even exist at the same time as this eternity devil. The Zombie devil could've lived the encounter, in the wiki it implies Denji didn't kill the zombie devil or it lived somehow. However the Eternity devil is a different case, its literally a different version of it with different showings. The Zombie devil that Denji killed and the one under makima's control showcased similar abilities meaning it didn't die and reincarnate like the eternity devil did.

Actually, the Eternity Devil can simply choose not to reveal itself, it revealed itself to form a contract with the Devil Hunters and to make them feel hopeless. The Zombie Devil also was never shown to survive, we saw it get killed. We’ve seen multiple devils that Makima uses get killed, yet she still uses them or their abilities. The Zombie Devil was sliced in half, including its core, it didn’t survive.

Makima already has undead body puppetry listed on her profile. I can also argue that the Eternity Devil without the Gun Devil fragment is the same as its Part 2 iteration. It's just the Eternity Devil without the fragment, nothing changes. The ability stays the same and that's mandatory for Chainsaw Man scaling.

You should probably bring this to the discussion thread if you still have doubts.

Cause there is no vagueness with Gojo's wincons. Which is primarily why I think he wins more often than not. Like there's no planning or any requirements or whatever to his wincons. HP lands? Makima's dead. Red lands? Makima's dead. Max blue lands? Makima's dead. Makima dies to his 3 main attacks, like I said the only attack of his that doesn't actually kill Makima is basic blue which he almost never uses as an actual projectile attack by the time of shinjuku and basic H2H punches (And UV). I'm not discrediting Makima's wincons, the hell devil's hand has been explicitly shown to manifest whenever Makima uses the ability, the profiles again even describes the ability as being used here. If my points that don't align with the profile can't be used here (Which I agree with) then we should also conclude this specific point because the profiles blatantly say that the hell devil's ability works by manifesting a hand

Sure, but also doesn't that make this a stomp, Makima doesn't have a way to use her wincons cuz she just instantly dies everytime? No?

 

[Razor]

And idk why people even argue that Red or Purple could insta kill Makima tbh, like Purple I can kinda understand, but Red?

Makima's healing shouldn't be limited to her cells at all, Kishibe himself stated that Makima is untouchable, because she can't be killed. And this statement has the same weight of that of Falling's statement, it's not that the Fire Devil was eaten by Pochita or anything right? Makima could easily be killed by literally burning all her cells in a blast furnace, and despite having 2109381038109 of those around the country, Kishibe still considered Makima to be unkillable and even relied on Denji's crazy idea to bypass it, like that's their only choice of killing Makima.

It's not that Makima was untouchable because she's so strong either, they could easily do so as shown, and even after Denji's successfully and completely neutralized Makima, the thought of "yeah dude your plan seems too risky, just burn her bruv" never came across any of their mind (even Denji who used "the power of light rahhhh"), that just shows.

For that reason, Red should never be able to kill Makima, Purple can't either, I seriously don't think why people even consider Purple being anything but just a ball of destruction that Gege gave some wobbly gobbly physics stuff to make it seems like a big deal, but all of those wobbly gobbly physics stuff doesn't make Hollow Purple be anything more than a destructive ball of something something, Gege never elaborated and Refused to do so.


I already explained why Gojo's teleportation does not help him in this situation. Makima's teleportation has shown way better range than Gojo's, she could do it way faster than him without needing to rely on some "certain conditions" either and unless you fix that first, we can't argue for his teleportation.

Makima could spot Gun 500km away with her bare eyes, Gojo never did anything remotely similar with Six Eyes. Furthermore, the "Gojo teleported to Kenjaku from Japan Trench" was all offscreened, so you can't argue using any of that either (like seriously, I felt iffy enough with the earthquake calc already), and that feat is not close enough to what Makima could do either. Gojo's Six Eyes probably spot Kenjaku only thanks to it's ability to spot CE, and Makima does not have that stuff in this fight, so even more iffy to say Gojo could chase Makima when bro has no way to even find her.

Anyways, all I see is headcanon for Gojo and solid feats for Makima, I say no further than Makima solos 9/10.

Red's stronger than 1.1 megatons, Makima's durability 550 tons. That's a 2000x difference, she is getting pasted. Makima's regen here is high-mid.

All you said was 'certain conditions'. It doesn't mean anything here.

Dude the gun devil is ******* huge, its not like she discerned a human sized figure from 500 kilometers away. I'm pretty sure a regular human could see the gun devil from that range. Makima has CE via verse equalization here.

 

[Chariot190]

It’s not the only time she does it. In Part 2, her reincarnation Nayuta does it multiple times using her control chains, but that falls under the Conquest ability.

You just finished saying they're completely different abilities. If she only uses it through her chains too that's kinda sus.

Makima, on the other hand, directly enters Denji’s memories like she’s jumping into the fourth dimension, no control chains, she just does.

Case and point, why is that mind reading, it could be something as niche as contact based immersion?

After that panel she legit reminds that hey, "I find it interesting how the mind of children can hide memories" then reminds him that he killed is own father. Just go to the chapter and take like a 30 second read. Pretty much covers everything.

I did. It's vague, not elaborated upon, and no real proof of anything tbh.
See, that's a case of what I'd call taking things far to literally.
Why wouldn't she just mean "yeah psychological trauma that got locked away", given that's literally what happened, as she's actively reminding Denji of the fact it happened?
Just because she uses the word mind, doesn't mean she literally read his mind.

I mean like, you could even argue "oh she needs contact" to use it even if we take it at face value, ESPECIALLY given the other times with her conquest ability, she had contact with chains and stuff.

It legit just reads as a vague one time ability that she never uses ever but she has zero reason not to so the fact it's even a real ability may or may not even be a thing.

Yeah I just wouldn't use this in a match ever unless new info comes out about it.

Her reaction speed is like 17x his speed. Much more all her other advantages. Not gonna debate it but the wincons are there, but now for both sides now ig? All you need is your own reasoning.

That is true.

I know eventually Gojo will prolly end up winning cuz its Gojo.

Dog people HATE JJK just as much as some goons like it. Don't think that that's an issue. Hell I'm leaning toward Makima myself, I just find issue with a few of the alleged "wincons".

 

[Chariot190]

Anyways, all I see is headcanon for Gojo and solid feats for Makima, I say no further than Makima solos 9/10.

Man, half your post was unconfirmed conjecture and extrapolation, you're in the same boat

 

[Keshirou]

Th regen would do when her durability is 550 tons and Gojo's random attack is 550 kilotonns.
Red is 1.1 megaton and Purple is far higher. It will just obliterates Makima into nothing, she never shown to regen from nothing.
Anyway, damage with CT = Curse Manipulation. I dont see any resistance to curse manip on the profile, nor devil physiology.
Pain Manipulation & Curse Manipulation (Injuries with cursed energy cause people to be automatically cursed, this creates severe consequences for normal beings, such as extreme pain, weakening of the body, becoming ill, and eventually death. Anyone who is not a sorcerer has 0 tolerance to cursed energy)
Also, UV wont be resisted by Makima, since its affects on sorcerer's that has resistance to mind manipulation (Basic sorcerers resistance).
So, voting Gojo.

 

[GunshyFever]

You just finished saying they're completely different abilities. If she only uses it through her chains too that's kinda sus.

Case and point, why is that mind reading, it could be something as niche as contact based immersion?

I did. It's vague, not elaborated upon, and no real proof of anything tbh.
See, that's a case of what I'd call taking things far to literally.
Why wouldn't she just mean "yeah psychological trauma that got locked away", given that's literally what happened, as she's actively reminding Denji of the fact it happened?
Just because she uses the word mind, doesn't mean she literally read his mind.

I mean like, you could even argue "oh she needs contact" to use it even if we take it at face value, ESPECIALLY given the other times with her conquest ability, she had contact with chains and stuff.

It legit just reads as a vague one time ability that she never uses ever but she has zero reason not to so the fact it's even a real ability may or may not even be a thing.

Yeah I just wouldn't use this in a match ever unless new info comes out about it.

That is true.

Dog people HATE JJK just as much as some goons like it. Don't think that that's an issue. Hell I'm leaning toward Makima myself, I just find issue with a few of the alleged "wincons".

Will cover it when I wake up. If by then I still don't convince, you should prolly make a crt to change it.

 

[Chariot190]

Will cover it when I wake up. If by then I still don't convince, you should prolly make a crt to change it.

I mean I wouldn't remove it entirely, but I'd at the very least go "possibly" and go "meh yeah **** if we know lmao" in a note or something.

 

[Razor]

She uses it several times during the anime if that helps. But I already explained why her using it was a likely approach, it's included in the text I wrote. You're too focused on questioning things we don't know, rather than using what we were actually shown. Nothing else matters in this context. All we know is that she had it and used it the way I described. It's exactly what I said originally.

Your confusion comes from overthinking it. If you want to brainstorm how the ability might work, the discussion thread is open, you could even start a CRT if you wanted. No one's stopping you.

The potency of the move lies in the fact that it can harm Primal Devils by targeting all their vital organs. It's accepted as a stronger extension of her glare-based bio hax. The way I described it doesn't contradict anything you've said.

Yes, yes it was. I described it too. The Hell Devil's hand takes up the entire panel as Makima completes the contract and asks him to send them back and with that wave they return. Your once again overthinking it.

If you concede, I won't push the issue.

Actually, the Eternity Devil can simply choose not to reveal itself, it revealed itself to form a contract with the Devil Hunters and to make them feel hopeless. The Zombie Devil also was never shown to survive, we saw it get killed. We’ve seen multiple devils that Makima uses get killed, yet she still uses them or their abilities. The Zombie Devil was sliced in half, including its core, it didn’t survive.

Makima already has undead body puppetry listed on her profile. I can also argue that the Eternity Devil without the Gun Devil fragment is the same as its Part 2 iteration. It's just the Eternity Devil without the fragment, nothing changes. The ability stays the same and that's mandatory for Chainsaw Man scaling.

You should probably bring this to the discussion thread if you still have doubts.

Sure, but also doesn't that make this a stomp, Makima doesn't have a way to use her wincons cuz she just instantly dies everytime? No?

I don't really agree with that approach, questioning things, especially things that are vague shouldn't be discarded. Though, I'll concede on this point, since I don't think a vs thread is where an ability like that should be scrutinized. It is a valid win con for sure.

I'm not overthinking it, it just blatantly wasn't shown. Plus like I said, we're going strictly off of profiles here, right. The profiles say the ability works by the hell devil manifesting a hand and teleporting its target to hell, so as far as this thread is concerned, thats how the ability works.

Yeah, I conceded since the profiles agree with your interpretation of princi's ability.

She does, and it doesn't matter. She can control the eternity devil from part 1, that isn't my concern. What I am saying is that the eternity devil that makima has under her control and the eternal devil that has the ability you're using in the argument didn't even exist at the same time period. Like, its literally impossible for Makima to have controlled part 2 Eternity devil.

For you to say this, you have to say that the eternity devil, reincarnated before makima's death AND makima controlled this reincarnated eternity devil before she died. And both of those things have no proof.

Nah, she has wincons and it is still possible for her to use them. She can instantly teleport away before HP, Red, ,max blue lands. Maybe Gojo starts with either UV or H2H. It's just the likelihood of her dying is higher. As him using HP, red or max blue is more likely than him using UV right off the bat or using H2H

 

[GunshyFever]

I don't really agree with that approach, questioning things, especially things that are vague shouldn't be discarded. Though, I'll concede on this point, since I don't think a vs thread is where an ability like that should be scrutinized. It is a valid win con for sure.

I'm not overthinking it, it just blatantly wasn't shown. Plus like I said, we're going strictly off of profiles here, right. The profiles say the ability works by the hell devil manifesting a hand and teleporting its target to hell, so as far as this thread is concerned, thats how the ability works.

Yeah, I conceded since the profiles agree with your interpretation of princi's ability.

She does, and it doesn't matter. She can control the eternity devil from part 1, that isn't my concern. What I am saying is that the eternity devil that makima has under her control and the eternal devil that has the ability you're using in the argument didn't even exist at the same time period. Like, its literally impossible for Makima to have controlled part 2 Eternity devil.

For you to say this, you have to say that the eternity devil, reincarnated before makima's death AND makima controlled this reincarnated eternity devil before she died. And both of those things have no proof.

Nah, she has wincons and it is still possible for her to use them. She can instantly teleport away before HP, Red, ,max blue lands. Maybe Gojo starts with either UV or H2H. It's just the likelihood of her dying is higher. As him using HP, red or max blue is more likely than him using UV right off the bat or using H2H

Seems like it was a misunderstanding on both parts with eternity, I didn't mean that she controls part 2 eternity if that's what your asking. My bad.

 

[Zabazab]

"meh yeah **** if we know lmao" in a note or something

Every damn CSM ability: