Punishing: Gray Raven | Power/ability removal

[Telomera]

Ishmael from Punishing: Gray Raven is currently listed as having ND2 but there's no actual justification for it on the profiles. I asked the guy who made the profiles about it and he said that it's because Ishmael exists "independently of various dual systems." The issue however is that this isn't evidence of nonduality at all. Nonduality is specifically existence outside the duality of P and not P (I double checked this with Ultima) which is not the same thing as "existing independently of various dual systems."

Additionally, Ishmael is listed as having NEP with regards to body and mind due to a scan saying that she's "empty" as well as being "Shapeless and soulless." The issue here is that this just isn't NEP. There is no indication here that Ishmael has a nonexistent physical body which is a necessary prerequisite for NEP. There isn't any indication of her having a nonexistent mind either even though she's listed as having NEP with aspect 3 (nonexistent mind).

EDIT: This translation was provided as a superior alternative to the official translation. While it does establish that Ishmael's primal projection is incorporeal, it fails to establish that her primal projection lacks a mind. It does say that her primal projection "originally" lacked a "unified consciousness," but this does not say anything about her primal projection's present state nor does it say that the primal projection lacks a mind/minds in general (lacking a unified consciousness is a vague statement)

There's also no proof of incorporeality or restoration either (although I feel like Alipheese might have some proof of incorporeality that he hasn't provided yet) so those should be removed as well.

Staff Evaluations​

Agree: FinePoint, Firestorm808, DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The issue however is that this isn't evidence of nonduality at all. Nonduality is specifically existence outside the duality of P and not P (I double checked this with Ultima) which is not the same thing as "existing independently of various dual systems."

"Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level." Well the person you asked either didn't read the description of the literal ability or something cuz that's what it legit states on the wiki page idk what you want me to tell you.

Additionally, Ishmael is listed as having NEP with regards to body and mind due to a scan saying that she's "empty" as well as being "Shapeless and soulless." The issue here is that this just isn't NEP. There is no indication here that Ishmael has a nonexistent physical body which is a necessary prerequisite for NEP. There isn't any indication of her having a nonexistent mind either even though she's listed as having NEP with aspect 3 (nonexistent mind).

The CN scan proves NEP, can feel free to have a translation member check this. Though, good luck with getting one of them to actually translate this.

There's also no proof of incorporeality or restoration either (although I feel like Alipheese might have some proof of incorporeality that he hasn't provided yet) so those should be removed as well.

Incorporeality would be given via NEP by default.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The CN scan proves NEP, can feel free to have a translation member check this. Though, good luck with getting one of them to actually translate this.

You would be the one who needs to get it translated to keep the ability

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

"Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level." Well the person you asked either didn't read the description of the literal ability or something cuz that's what it legit states on the wiki page idk what you want me to tell you.

DT also says that only logical negation count for the ability. None what the scans say is even remotely close to nonduality. If it was nonduality it'd be more like "Outside the dichotomy of having the properties of a shape/soul and not having a shape/soul or end/not-end and beginning/not-beginning". Here it only says they're shapeless and soulless and a flowery way to describe infinity.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

You would be the one who needs to get it translated to keep the ability

Yeah I'm in the process of doing that, but if the translation just never comes then idk what to say. Been trying for awhile

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

DT also says that only logical negation count for the ability. None what the scans say is even remotely close to nonduality. If it was nonduality it'd be more like "Outside the dichotomy of having the properties of a shape/soul and not having a shape/soul or end/not-end and beginning/not-beginning". Here it only says they're shapeless and soulless and a flowery way to describe infinity.

Yeah but it's less about the projection scan and more about the lives of higher dimension seeing lower dimensions as a book/fiction. Regardless, what you said doesn't actually disqualify what is already mentioned on the page. It adds context to it, but it is still a matter of an entity existing independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems. This is further backed by the fact the page legit states that "Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level. Since there is no general rules to the behaviour of something which doesn't abide the rules of logic".
What you sent doesn't disprove nor disqualify this fact, it just adds on to another possible use of it. Also what you sent is literally in reference to Transduality not Nonduality. "On the other hand, characters with transduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.
For this ability, dualities refer to logical dualities where the duality is between "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. For example, fire and water are not a duality; the duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void. However, not all verses follow this logic, and many may treat things not logically considered dualities - such as water and fire or time and space - as dualities, meaning what is and isn't a duality can change between verses."

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yeah but it's less about the projection scan and more about the lives of higher dimension seeing lower dimensions as a book/fiction. Regardless, what you said doesn't actually disqualify what is already mentioned on the page. It adds context to it, but it is still a matter of an entity existing independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems. This is further backed by the fact the page legit states that "Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level. Since there is no general rules to the behaviour of something which doesn't abide the rules of logic".
What you sent doesn't disprove nor disqualify this fact, it just adds on to another possible use of it. Also what you sent is literally in reference to Transduality not Nonduality. "On the other hand, characters with transduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding while also possessing qualitative superiority to them. Besides immunizing them against the dualities in question, this power also immunizes them against attempts to apply those dualities to them, as they would transcend the scope of the haxes that could do so.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nonduality#:~:text=On the other,change between verses
For this ability, dualities refer to logical dualities where the duality is between "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. For example, fire and water are not a duality; the duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, or, alternately, existence and nonexistence or existence and void. However, not all verses follow this logic, and many may treat things not logically considered dualities - such as water and fire or time and space - as dualities, meaning what is and isn't a duality can change between verses."

I'm gonna be honest no ill will. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I just dont see anything that follows up for nonduality in the scans.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I'm gonna be honest no ill will. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I just dont see anything that follows up for nonduality in the scans.

Nah it's fine dw about it, that was my mistake I edited it. What I meant was, that A analogy only applies to ND3 not 1 & 2. It also seems to still reference the old transduality (which iirc, both were merged)

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Nah it's fine dw about it, that was my mistake I edited it. What I meant was, that A analogy only applies to ND3 not 1 & 2. It also seems to still reference the old transduality (which iirc, both were merged)

A and not A just applies to nonduality as a whole. Or else the page makes no sense at all if you take it like that.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

A and not A just applies to nonduality as a whole. Or else the page makes no sense at all if you take it like that.

Yes, but what I said still stands. You can qualify for Nonduality by being beyond, existing outside, or independently of the duality in question. "For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers." What you're saying still qualifies as a possibility for obtaining the ability, not the literal only way to get it.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yes, but what I said still stands. You can qualify for Nonduality by being beyond, existing outside, or independently of the duality in question. "For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of binary systems, as a duality, a nondual character's state of being could be between 0 and 1, being both or neither at once, being another number besides these, or be indescribable through numbers." What you're saying still qualifies as a possibility for obtaining the ability, not the literal only way to get it.

............?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

............?

Rather than just putting a question mark, it would be better to just write whatever it is that is confusing you. What is it?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Rather than just putting a question mark, it would be better to just write whatever it is that is confusing you. What is it?

Because binary stuff is specifically referring to logical negations and not just any common duality.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Because binary stuff is specifically referring to logical negations and not just any common duality.

The only way to actually get nonduality is just these negations. That's it. Nothing like yin and yang, fire and ice, whatever, qualify on their own.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Because binary stuff is specifically referring to logical negations and not just any common duality.

Yeah, I'm aware it's not any common duality.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The only way to actually get nonduality is just these negations. That's it. Nothing like yin and yang, fire and ice, whatever, qualify on their own.

They do qualify though don't they? They just wouldn't qualify for type 2, but I'm pretty sure they qualify for type 1 (depending on how the series treats these dualities ofc)

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

They do qualify though don't they? They just wouldn't qualify for type 2, but I'm pretty sure they qualify for type 1 (depending on how the series treats these dualities ofc)

No. This applies for all types. Type 1 is for being outside for example the concepts of both "physical" and "not-physical". Type 2 is for being above stuff that would generally describe these states such as "is" and "is not", "true" and "false.".

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

No. This applies for all types. Type 1 is for being outside for example the concepts of both "physical" and "not-physical". Type 2 is for being above stuff that would generally describe these states such as "is" and "is not", "true" and "false.".

I mean yes, but like I already said. That would depend on how the series in question treats these dualities, I understand fire and water in general obviously do not by default qualify for ND. However, if the series treated fire and water as dualities that aligned with concepts such as both "physical" and "not physical" to quote your example, then it'd qualify.

 

[Telomera]

Yeah but it's less about the projection scan and more about the lives of higher dimension seeing lower dimensions as a book/fiction. Regardless, what you said doesn't actually disqualify what is already mentioned on the page. It adds context to it, but it is still a matter of an entity existing independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems. This is further backed by the fact the page legit states that "Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level. Since there is no general rules to the behaviour of something which doesn't abide the rules of logic".

"Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level."

You forgot the part in bold. They actually have to be nondual to have nonduality because, well duh.

They do qualify though don't they? They just wouldn't qualify for type 2, but I'm pretty sure they qualify for type 1 (depending on how the series treats these dualities ofc)

No, Even type 1 requires actual nonduality. None of the scans you've given demonstrate nonduality.

 

[Hayato5652]

If Ishmael, as a Watcher, is described as lacking all forms of duality, meaning she do not embody any opposing states such as existence/non-existence, life/death, or light/darkness, then this could support the idea that Ishmael exists in a state of general nonduality, completely detached from any form of opposition.


I always thought the Watcher had Nonduality Type 2 because of this reason.

 

[Telomera]

If Ishmael, as a Watcher, is described as lacking all forms of duality, meaning she do not embody any opposing states such as existence/non-existence, life/death, or light/darkness, then this could support the idea that Ishmael exists in a state of general nonduality, completely detached from any form of opposition.


I always thought the Watcher had Nonduality Type 2 because of this reason.

Well, are there any scans showing this? None have been provided. Additionally, we're discussing Ishmael's projection key, not her "observer" key.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

"Characters with regular nonduality exist outside and independently of the logical systems that they're nondual regarding without transcending them on any level."

You forgot the part in bold. They actually have to be nondual to have nonduality because, well duh.

I didn't bold it because it's self evident of course.

No, Even type 1 requires actual nonduality. None of the scans you've given demonstrate nonduality.

What's your point? You're arguing type 1 requires nonduality when the page is literally called nonduality? That's like arguing that fire manip page requires fire which is...obvious. The point is not about nonduality itself, because there are obviously different examples of it. It's about the level of nonduality and what type it coordinates to, so I don't see what's your point in even mentioning this. I'll provide the scans tomorrow, it's late and I'm not going to search for them right now

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

If Ishmael, as a Watcher, is described as lacking all forms of duality, meaning she do not embody any opposing states such as existence/non-existence, life/death, or light/darkness, then this could support the idea that Ishmael exists in a state of general nonduality, completely detached from any form of opposition.

Yes, something like that would indeed prove nonduality.

 

[Hayato5652]

Well, are there any scans showing this? None have been provided. Additionally, we're discussing Ishmael's projection key, not her "observer" key.

The Primal Projection is just an avatar of the observer, so if it ever gets a key with Nonduality, there’s no problem, it would be derived from the Watcher herself.

There’s no scan in the fiction that directly states “this character lacks all forms of duality,” yet we infer Type 2 Nonduality from implications like “she is beyond the concept of linear time” or “she views lower dimensions as fiction and reads time like a book.”

Some concepts aren’t meant to be spelled out word for word, they're meant to be understood. The Watcher perceives all dualities of that level of reality as a mere book and is not bound, or even defined,by any duality. She just is. And none of this breaks the story or interferes with narrative consistency.

 

[Telomera]

There’s no scan in the fiction that directly states “this character lacks all forms of duality,” yet we infer Type 2 Nonduality from implications like “she is beyond the concept of linear time” or “she views lower dimensions as fiction and reads time like a book.”

Both of those things are dual.

 

[Hayato5652]

Both of those things are dual.

The source of this Nonduality comes from the Watcher herself, it's just that the key is written under the Primal Projection. Since the Projection is merely her avatar, any nondual traits listed there ultimately stem from the Watcher.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Both of those things are dual.

What is this response supposed to prove? You just admitted both of those things are dual, meaning if she was to exist independently of, or qualitatively beyond these dualities she'd qualify. Genuinely confused on what this response was even meant for

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The Primal Projection is just an avatar of the observer, so if it ever gets a key with Nonduality, there’s no problem, it would be derived from the Watcher herself.

There’s no scan in the fiction that directly states “this character lacks all forms of duality,” yet we infer Type 2 Nonduality from implications like “she is beyond the concept of linear time” or “she views lower dimensions as fiction and reads time like a book.”

Some concepts aren’t meant to be spelled out word for word, they're meant to be understood. The Watcher perceives all dualities of that level of reality as a mere book and is not bound, or even defined,by any duality. She just is. And none of this breaks the story or interferes with narrative consistency.

Also, we don't even need to go with this level of obscurity. Even though you're right I'm not denying that, there is a literal scan that states she exists at the boundary between life and death. Case closed.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Also, we don't even need to go with this level of obscurity. Even though you're right I'm not denying that, there is a literal scan that states she exists at the boundary between life and death. Case closed.

life and death here is not a logical negation and I don't see what would make it so since that requires some very specific statements.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

life and death here is not a logical negation and I don't see what would make it so since that requires some very specific statements.

What are you talking about? It literally states on NEP 2 page itself that people with it have some form of nonduality.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

What are you talking about? It literally states on NEP 2 page itself that people with it have some form of nonduality.

Because NEP2 exists outside the binary of existence and nonexistence...? That has literally nothing to do with life and death. Also you wouldn't list someone with NEP2 having nonduality from that alone like how you wouldn't list someone with NEP having incorporeality. It's completely redundant.

 

[rogueprestonian]

Been following all PGR discourse and CRT’s so far because I actually play the game but I’m too lazy to be a supporter and I gotta disagree.

Even as a projection, it still gets it’s nonduality status from Ishmael the Watcher herself by common narrative implication.

And mentioned earlier, it is like saying Fire Manipulation requires Fire. Obviously it does so why be intentionally ignorant.

But i would advise Alipheese to try and add proof via either narrative implication or like the eventually translated CN page you mentioned earlier into the profiles as soon as possible. Not commenting on this again regardless of anything because i know my opinion doesn’t matter really. Back to Lurking.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

The Primal Projection is just an avatar of the observer, so if it ever gets a key with Nonduality, there’s no problem, it would be derived from the Watcher herself.

There’s no scan in the fiction that directly states “this character lacks all forms of duality,” yet we infer Type 2 Nonduality from implications like “she is beyond the concept of linear time” or “she views lower dimensions as fiction and reads time like a book.”

Some concepts aren’t meant to be spelled out word for word, they're meant to be understood. The Watcher perceives all dualities of that level of reality as a mere book and is not bound, or even defined,by any duality. She just is. And none of this breaks the story or interferes with narrative consistency.

Also none of these follow up for nonduality???? You're literally saying anyone with any form of higher dimensional transcendence or beyond time should get nonduality type 2. There is NO mentions of viewing all logical negations as fiction or any at all. I'm just genuinely baffled on how these are genuine arguments for nonduality type 2.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Because NEP2 exists outside the binary of existence and nonexistence...?

I'm sorry? Do you not realize that existence and nonexistence is literally life and death? Why the mental gymnastics?

Also you wouldn't list someone with NEP2 having nonduality from that alone like how you wouldn't list someone with NEP having incorporeality. It's completely redundant.

The page literally states "The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent. That means that users always are Incorporeal, unless maybe they physically qualify for Paradoxical Nonexistence" it's not redundant, the same way a page can have high level physics manipulation and also have reality warping. And yes...as I have already proven you WOULD list someone with NEP2 as having nonduality, atp you guys are arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'm sorry? Do you not realize that existence and nonexistence is literally life and death? Why the mental gymnastics?

Scans?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Also none of these follow up for nonduality???? You're literally saying anyone with any form of higher dimensional transcendence or beyond time should get nonduality type 2. There is NO mentions of viewing all logical negations as fiction or any at all. I'm just genuinely baffled on how these are genuine arguments for nonduality type 2.

Well they are not the sole arguments in of themselves, the tier 1 CRT goes into extra detail about it. I myself am baffled by you doing clear mental gymnastics to disagree so ig that makes 2 of us.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Scans?

I'm literally palming my face in my hand rn, you cannot be serious lol

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Well they are not the sole arguments in of themselves, the tier 1 CRT goes into extra detail about it. I myself am baffled by you doing clear mental gymnastics to disagree so ig that makes 2 of us.

sybau

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Well until someone comes up with an actual decent reason and most importantly, uses official sources for said reasoning. I'm just gonna leave this thread in the backdrop until an extremely knowledgeable member of staff answer cuz I'm not gonna go back and forth this hard about very obvious things after providing evidence.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

sybau

Idek what this means man