EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 20,338
- 15,797
Don't turn this thread into some drama. If enough evidence or arguments are provided to support the current listed rating, I have no problem closing the thread without any changes. Justification should be upgraded in the profile.
Currently many characters are scaled to 2-C in Tensura LN profiles with Zorario destroyed numerous dimensions statement which I think is Misinformation.
Problems with Zorario Destroying Many Dimensions
There is no proof that "destroy" here refers to the literal destruction of the dimensions themselves, rather than overtaking the world, which is one of the meanings the kanji represents. I'll elaborate on this below.
Zorario belongs to the Mystics and is one of the top three officers under Feldway's command. As you can see, their objective is stated to be invading other dimensional worlds and conquering them. This is further supported in Volume 17 by Cornu's statement, where it talks about conquering one world and using it as a base to invade more. Cornu holds the same position as Zorario. Hence, I believe Zorario's statement about "destroying numerous dimensions" is not meant to be taken literally, but instead refers to his conquests. In the original quote, it was talking about how he had never seen any talent like Charys during his many conquests.
We conclude that Zorario never destroyed the dimensions in a literal sense, and scrap this rating entirely, instead scaling him based on other feats he has demonstrated so far.
In case someone were to prove Zorario indeed destroyed those dimensions then below is what I'm proposing.
There is no statement or evidence indicating that he destroyed the dimensions all at once.
Even if one were to prove that he did destroy the dimensions, there is no evidence that they were 2-C in size. Unless someone has proof for these.
Problem with Size of the Alternate Dimensional World
Velgrynd traveled to many worlds and found that there was only one type of world, along with other alternate dimension worlds. Here, we should focus on the fact that the worlds she traveled to were not all the same size. There were many worlds, and a few of them were small and fragile enough to be destroyed by the fully unleashed power of True Dragons.
The destructive power required to wipe out a solar system is stated to completely surpass Velgrynd's strength.
In the previous thread, people argued that this statement was referring to the Cardinal World's planet (which was created with some of Veldanava power). So, I looked deeper into this and checked, but I couldn’t find any strong interpretation or evidence supporting that it was talking about the Cardinal World planet. If someone has such evidence, feel free to post it. Until then, I'll argue that this was a statement based on her general destructive capabilities.
We have a similar situation with Carrera, where her destructive capabilities are described as planetary (and could potentially be higher, but I’m just referring to the statements we have). What I'm saying is author doesn't always represents Cardinal World planet when says destruction of planet.
It should be noted that despite Carrera having the power to destroy a planet, her power cannot destroy a Cardinal World planet. Therefore, her statement should be interpreted more generally. Additionally, her magic is stated to rival Velgrynd's, which provides a way to scale them as being relatively comparable in terms of destructive power. Furthermore, Velgrynd’s destructive capability being described as below solar system level seems to be a generalized statement, rather than one specifically based on the durability of a Cardinal World planet.
Also even if we say it was speaking of Cardinal World planet we still don't have any idea how Durable it is and this is what @Planck69 (Staff) stated in Previous thread
Thus, Velgrynd’s True Dragon power of destruction (which is below solar system level) > small worlds — which are also among the possible dimensions that Zorario may have destroyed (if one were to prove he actually meant literal destruction rather than conquering).
Currently, we need proof that space holding timelines is universal in size (you can check the Celestial Foundation downgrade for a clearer view on this topic). So, Zorario’s statement doesn’t necessarily mean he is capable of destroying dimensions with a literal Low 2-C or 2-C structure.
Addressing the Counter Arguments for this
In the previous thread, there was something Code brought up from a Q&A with the author to support Velgrynd's case. But when we take a closer look at it, we can see that the Q&A doesn't actually address the issue. The Q&A was regarding the time-traveling ability affecting the world, not anything about Velgrynd's destruction feat. There was another Q&A he referenced where the author said Guy could destroy the world easily if he wanted, but later admitted it was contradictory to the plot and that we should only take it as supporting evidence. So, I'm not sure how much these Q&As are usable compared to the plot. Either way, even if we take the Velgrynd Q&A seriously, there is no proof that the "world" they are talking about is universal in size, so we would still be back to square one.
Ramiris' dimension having a different time flow does not equal having different timelines (this has not been proven so far). This doesn't support the case either. Pocket dimensions or alternate dimensions of unknown size can have different time flows without qualifying under the wiki's requirements for timelines.
In the previous thread, Code mentioned that there was a starry sky and that Velgrynd's fist could destroy it. However, we need proof that each floor actually has a starry sky. Why? Because there is no proof that the floor Velgrynd destroyed had a starry sky. If you claim that her fist destroyed a starry sky just because she destroyed a few floors, then you are implying that any floor any character destroys should be equal in size to the floor with the starry sky.
Also, I couldn't find any statement confirming that a floor possesses stars within it, so I suggest that supporters drop the scan. The last thing I remember was a manga panel, which doesn't tell us anything based on the image alone. So if that's all there is, feel free to drop the scan and we will evaluate it after some discussion.
Getting back to the main cluster of this point:
There are three scenarios:
1. You prove that the dimensions in question are indeed 2-C in size and that Zorario’s "destroying dimensions" statement is literal, and thus keep the rating.
Or
2. The dimensions in question are at least Low 2-C in size and Zorario’s "destroying dimensions" statement is literal, and thus give the appropriate rating.
Or
3. The dimensions in question are around solar system-sized, and Zorario’s "destroying dimensions" statement is literal, and thus give the corresponding rating.
Agree: @Reiner04 (Thread Mod), @Dereck03 (Admin), @Catzlaflame (Thread Mod)
Neutral:
Disagree:
Currently many characters are scaled to 2-C in Tensura LN profiles with Zorario destroyed numerous dimensions statement which I think is Misinformation.
Problems with Zorario Destroying Many Dimensions
There is no proof that "destroy" here refers to the literal destruction of the dimensions themselves, rather than overtaking the world, which is one of the meanings the kanji represents. I'll elaborate on this below.
Given how each of these three forces acted, there was simply no way they could live in harmony within the world they called home. The mystics and insectors had been fighting for well near eternity. Only when the number of cryptids ballooned to where they went fully out of control would these two bitter enemies drop arms and fight together to destroy them—a moment in history that had been repeated since time immemorial.
Because of that, these races had never rested in their search for a safer domain, their eyes scanning the universe outside their own as they planned their hypothetical invasions. That, of course, would not be easy. Even with a life span that surpassed humans’ and bodies that disease or injury could never take, they had yet to achieve their long-held dream.
The first problem was that they still had no easy way to open an invasion path to other worlds. Rifts in space occurred, caused by unique catastrophes called space-time vibrations, but they happened only once a millennium and, even then, lasted only a tiny amount of time. Sending a large army through them would be quite impossible; it was all they could do to send an advance team over to build a base of operations.
There were, however, exceptions. These took the form of a “gate,” a rift connecting dimensions that was fixed in place within their world, known by the populace as the Gates of Hell or the Underworld Gate. Using this gate made it a snap to escape from their world, but since it was under the control of the demon race, the Aggressors—the assorted species trying to invade other worlds—were denied access. That’s why they were so keen on trying to seize control of it—but for now, everyone was in a state of détente.
Because of that, these races had never rested in their search for a safer domain, their eyes scanning the universe outside their own as they planned their hypothetical invasions. That, of course, would not be easy. Even with a life span that surpassed humans’ and bodies that disease or injury could never take, they had yet to achieve their long-held dream.
The first problem was that they still had no easy way to open an invasion path to other worlds. Rifts in space occurred, caused by unique catastrophes called space-time vibrations, but they happened only once a millennium and, even then, lasted only a tiny amount of time. Sending a large army through them would be quite impossible; it was all they could do to send an advance team over to build a base of operations.
There were, however, exceptions. These took the form of a “gate,” a rift connecting dimensions that was fixed in place within their world, known by the populace as the Gates of Hell or the Underworld Gate. Using this gate made it a snap to escape from their world, but since it was under the control of the demon race, the Aggressors—the assorted species trying to invade other worlds—were denied access. That’s why they were so keen on trying to seize control of it—but for now, everyone was in a state of détente.
All of them were invincible. Looking at the situation, both as yohma and from the perspective of the humans they possessed, they were one step away from conquering the world. Once they built their rule over the human race, they’d top it all off by summoning Cornu—and from there, they’d start reworking the planet itself, making it into a stellar base for their future conquests. Space was a big place, but not as large as the universe they’d come from. Now that they had physical bodies, they could feasibly conquer this entire dimension in the span of thousands to tens of thousands of years. As they did, they’d develop a new Underworld Gate to the next dimension, with an eye toward yet more pillaging.
We conclude that Zorario never destroyed the dimensions in a literal sense, and scrap this rating entirely, instead scaling him based on other feats he has demonstrated so far.
In case someone were to prove Zorario indeed destroyed those dimensions then below is what I'm proposing.
There is no statement or evidence indicating that he destroyed the dimensions all at once.
Even if one were to prove that he did destroy the dimensions, there is no evidence that they were 2-C in size. Unless someone has proof for these.
Problem with Size of the Alternate Dimensional World
Velgrynd traveled to many worlds and found that there was only one type of world, along with other alternate dimension worlds. Here, we should focus on the fact that the worlds she traveled to were not all the same size. There were many worlds, and a few of them were small and fragile enough to be destroyed by the fully unleashed power of True Dragons.
The destructive power required to wipe out a solar system is stated to completely surpass Velgrynd's strength.
- LN Volume 21
In the previous thread, people argued that this statement was referring to the Cardinal World's planet (which was created with some of Veldanava power). So, I looked deeper into this and checked, but I couldn’t find any strong interpretation or evidence supporting that it was talking about the Cardinal World planet. If someone has such evidence, feel free to post it. Until then, I'll argue that this was a statement based on her general destructive capabilities.
We have a similar situation with Carrera, where her destructive capabilities are described as planetary (and could potentially be higher, but I’m just referring to the statements we have). What I'm saying is author doesn't always represents Cardinal World planet when says destruction of planet.
Among the four Devil Lords (including Diablo), Carrera now boasted the largest magicule count. She hadn’t been able to fully control it before, but with Abaddon, that shortcoming was a thing of the past. The current Carrera, in fact, could manipulate magic to an extent that rivaled Velgrynd.
“Let me grant you perdition. Vanish before me! Abyss Annihilation!!”
This was an ultimate magic, surpassing even Gravity Collapse—the greatest and most powerful attack magic—and Carrera’s ideals in action. It worked by adding matter from the lowest of hellish abysses into a collapsed gravitational force field, generating an unfathomable torrent of extreme energy. It was, needless to say, extremely difficult to even point this energy at something, much less control it.
It wasn’t even meant to be invoked while standing on a planetary surface, but Carrera didn’t hesitate to whip it out. One mistake controlling it could wipe out an entire planet, in fact. She had never successfully pulled it off during her practice sessions in the underworld, and this was the first time she ever tried it in the material world. It had never worked before, but she still didn’t hesitate.
“Let me grant you perdition. Vanish before me! Abyss Annihilation!!”
This was an ultimate magic, surpassing even Gravity Collapse—the greatest and most powerful attack magic—and Carrera’s ideals in action. It worked by adding matter from the lowest of hellish abysses into a collapsed gravitational force field, generating an unfathomable torrent of extreme energy. It was, needless to say, extremely difficult to even point this energy at something, much less control it.
It wasn’t even meant to be invoked while standing on a planetary surface, but Carrera didn’t hesitate to whip it out. One mistake controlling it could wipe out an entire planet, in fact. She had never successfully pulled it off during her practice sessions in the underworld, and this was the first time she ever tried it in the material world. It had never worked before, but she still didn’t hesitate.
As Guy explained, this planet was created through the power of Veldanava and therefore wasn’t going to be catastrophically torn apart or anything. But Milim’s power was still rising, and if left unchecked, she’d encase the whole planet in a thick layer of contaminating magicules.
…Well, if there’s still gonna be a planet at the end of the day, then great. And I guess it made sense. After all, even Carrera’s magic wasn’t the sort you should really use on the surface of a planet. We only got away with it because we were on a world that could withstand such lethal force. Otherwise, at best, some attack from her would’ve bent the axis of the planet by then.
…Well, if there’s still gonna be a planet at the end of the day, then great. And I guess it made sense. After all, even Carrera’s magic wasn’t the sort you should really use on the surface of a planet. We only got away with it because we were on a world that could withstand such lethal force. Otherwise, at best, some attack from her would’ve bent the axis of the planet by then.
Also even if we say it was speaking of Cardinal World planet we still don't have any idea how Durable it is and this is what @Planck69 (Staff) stated in Previous thread
Thus, Velgrynd’s True Dragon power of destruction (which is below solar system level) > small worlds — which are also among the possible dimensions that Zorario may have destroyed (if one were to prove he actually meant literal destruction rather than conquering).
Currently, we need proof that space holding timelines is universal in size (you can check the Celestial Foundation downgrade for a clearer view on this topic). So, Zorario’s statement doesn’t necessarily mean he is capable of destroying dimensions with a literal Low 2-C or 2-C structure.
Addressing the Counter Arguments for this
In the previous thread, there was something Code brought up from a Q&A with the author to support Velgrynd's case. But when we take a closer look at it, we can see that the Q&A doesn't actually address the issue. The Q&A was regarding the time-traveling ability affecting the world, not anything about Velgrynd's destruction feat. There was another Q&A he referenced where the author said Guy could destroy the world easily if he wanted, but later admitted it was contradictory to the plot and that we should only take it as supporting evidence. So, I'm not sure how much these Q&As are usable compared to the plot. Either way, even if we take the Velgrynd Q&A seriously, there is no proof that the "world" they are talking about is universal in size, so we would still be back to square one.
Ramiris' dimension having a different time flow does not equal having different timelines (this has not been proven so far). This doesn't support the case either. Pocket dimensions or alternate dimensions of unknown size can have different time flows without qualifying under the wiki's requirements for timelines.
In the previous thread, Code mentioned that there was a starry sky and that Velgrynd's fist could destroy it. However, we need proof that each floor actually has a starry sky. Why? Because there is no proof that the floor Velgrynd destroyed had a starry sky. If you claim that her fist destroyed a starry sky just because she destroyed a few floors, then you are implying that any floor any character destroys should be equal in size to the floor with the starry sky.
Also, I couldn't find any statement confirming that a floor possesses stars within it, so I suggest that supporters drop the scan. The last thing I remember was a manga panel, which doesn't tell us anything based on the image alone. So if that's all there is, feel free to drop the scan and we will evaluate it after some discussion.
Getting back to the main cluster of this point:
There are three scenarios:
1. You prove that the dimensions in question are indeed 2-C in size and that Zorario’s "destroying dimensions" statement is literal, and thus keep the rating.
Or
2. The dimensions in question are at least Low 2-C in size and Zorario’s "destroying dimensions" statement is literal, and thus give the appropriate rating.
Or
3. The dimensions in question are around solar system-sized, and Zorario’s "destroying dimensions" statement is literal, and thus give the corresponding rating.
Agree: @Reiner04 (Thread Mod), @Dereck03 (Admin), @Catzlaflame (Thread Mod)
Neutral:
Disagree:
Last edited by a moderator:
..
