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Everything is up to date as we speak.
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Devil May Cry: Peak of Combat Additions
- Thread starter SuperSonicTL
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It's not a retcon, he never was Vergil lol.
I was doing research about it some weeks ago and checked the raws, I think I even posted them in the server.
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Oh i see, my bad them must have missed the day you posted lul
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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How is being able to master any task in seconds not even Genius?
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Mastering "any task within seconds" obviously isn't literal, and its too vague
Ser_Hakim_Dayne
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It's literal, as the scan proves, that's why it's EG.
The scan clearly speaks of his physical abilities ("his physical abilities surpass those of both humans and demons, allowing to astonishing heights."), taking as an example his skill as a guitarist because he is able to play the guitar with his teeth and his back effortlessly.
Mastering any tasks isn't vague here, as it's stated this puts him beyond humans and demons which are Extraordinary Genius at intelligence. Also the tasks are stated to be "impossible", not just normal tasks, and he just needs a few seconds to learn and conquer them. So this puts him above human's limitations as well.
Also this has countless supporting arguements as dante was able to modify ebony & evory, coyote (shotgun) (these were made by a Genius or EG person) and was able to learn any weapons which were impossible to be learnt by humans let alone by the first touch. Nero also was able to modify Red Queen which was made by an Extraordinary Genius alchemist. Also Nero was working on Blue Rose on novels (either he made it or modified it). so they can fix the problems of an ET person or even make guns for killing demons which were impossible for normal humans and scientists to make a way for killing them. This shows their superior intelligence which is related to their Sparda physiology.
Alao Vergil can master any moveset in mere moments of observation. You may just call it Power Mimircy, but with his intelligence he can copy the power and skill of others as he showed he is really good at analysing. Dante can also blend art and science in his movesets. Dante is portrayed as the best detective and devil hunter in his own city, which shows he is really good at terms of intelligence.
Hell this even fits ET intelligence.
Edit: Even Sparda created Rebellion, Yamato & Sparda (Devil Sword), the swords that even scientists like Agnus wasn't able to undestand as he was unable to fix Yamato for a entire year. So yeah they are naturally so smart.
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That tells me you know nothing about series
Idk what was the main topic before this but i must explain about the Yamato void manip for those who says it's vague.
First of all there's no energy named "voidness" in the verse, the void or voidness in dmc are the void itself aka nothingness.
Formerly we had a demon that was able to use void (or voidness) to bypass defences and durabilites which was even accepted as void manip in wiki. This void was the nothingness to clear objects. Now PoC is stated that Vergil is using voidness for his slash to cut through others. He assembles aka manipulates the void to make a slash for shattering dimensions as after using this, anything that his void slash touched, has turned into nothingness (get removed from existance by breaking like a "broken mirror" and then get disappeared). This is stated multiple times that he can manipulate voidness to use it for his battles. Void slash name normally wouldn't give you void manip, but when it's stated that Vergil uses voidness itself to cut through others (multiple times) then yeah we can consider that. This hasn't any inconsistencies with the lore or Yamato, but even it has consistent with it as this attack is portrayed as a deadly and powerful attack among other yamato attacks; while all of yamato attacks cut through space and anything and have durability negation, this one is portrayed deadly and powerful among them (dmc5 raw japanese moveset information - void slash).
Also manipulating the void isn't a new thing among the sparda descendants, as Dante was able to interact and kill Void Mundus who's body is made of Void. So he is able to manipulate the void which is related to his physiology. Hope no vague points had left
First of all there's no energy named "voidness" in the verse, the void or voidness in dmc are the void itself aka nothingness.
Formerly we had a demon that was able to use void (or voidness) to bypass defences and durabilites which was even accepted as void manip in wiki. This void was the nothingness to clear objects. Now PoC is stated that Vergil is using voidness for his slash to cut through others. He assembles aka manipulates the void to make a slash for shattering dimensions as after using this, anything that his void slash touched, has turned into nothingness (get removed from existance by breaking like a "broken mirror" and then get disappeared). This is stated multiple times that he can manipulate voidness to use it for his battles. Void slash name normally wouldn't give you void manip, but when it's stated that Vergil uses voidness itself to cut through others (multiple times) then yeah we can consider that. This hasn't any inconsistencies with the lore or Yamato, but even it has consistent with it as this attack is portrayed as a deadly and powerful attack among other yamato attacks; while all of yamato attacks cut through space and anything and have durability negation, this one is portrayed deadly and powerful among them (dmc5 raw japanese moveset information - void slash).
Also manipulating the void isn't a new thing among the sparda descendants, as Dante was able to interact and kill Void Mundus who's body is made of Void. So he is able to manipulate the void which is related to his physiology. Hope no vague points had left
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Dante being able to master any task in seconds is supported/demonstrated by numerous feats, and the statement only clarifies it.
He taught himself to fly a bi-plane in a few seconds, he instantly invented a new fighting style for strange weapons like Lucifer and Cerberus, Vergil translates a complicated book in a few hours, Dante and Vergil copy each other's fighting styles, and so on.
He taught himself to fly a bi-plane in a few seconds, he instantly invented a new fighting style for strange weapons like Lucifer and Cerberus, Vergil translates a complicated book in a few hours, Dante and Vergil copy each other's fighting styles, and so on.
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I've already written about it, but I'll repeat it again. Throughout the series, Dante constantly received various weapons that do not exist in reality, which is why he could not even theoretically know how to use them effectively, for example, the triple nunchuck. However, having picked it up for the first time, he immediately began to wield it at the level of a god in a couple of seconds, doing simply incredible tricks and effectively using it in battle.
He really learns anything in seconds, no matter whether it is playing the guitar or fighting with weapons.
Although in fairness, Dante's office in DMC 3 had a couple of guitars and drums, so he had experience using guitars before Nevan, but it is assumed that he will be able to do this in a couple of seconds, if he did not know how to do it before.
Palito266
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I think the mastering any task within seconds should at the VERY LEAST warrant genius, and it's something that has been shown explicitly throughout the series.
The moment he picks up a new weapon, he somehow knows how to use it to superhuman degrees, even if these weapons are impractical or of demonic origin that simply do not exist in the Human World and Dante would have no way of having experience with them.
Statement can be used, it's consistent.
The moment he picks up a new weapon, he somehow knows how to use it to superhuman degrees, even if these weapons are impractical or of demonic origin that simply do not exist in the Human World and Dante would have no way of having experience with them.
Statement can be used, it's consistent.
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Lads... Stop derailing plz
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Hmmm... Yeah, that makes sense, I guess. Now, I am pretty iffy on how loose we've gotten in general with the way we spread abilities in general in the last couple of years, the whole "a character used A technique/A weapon that achieves B effect, A runs on C energy, therefore C and all its uses can do B". But that said, two random objects weren't really made for a specific effect, so I can kind of see where it's coming from.
A minor advice, but nothing else, maybe reword it a bit so ignorant fellas (like myself) can understand it right away. Something like "Demonic Energy is so damaging that mere objects made from it can cause induce madness and cause hallucinations". This is just a minor nitpick though.
I don't doubt these weapons use Demonic Energy or are made of it. Here is where we come across the issue I mentioned above, why the specific effect achieved through the weapon should apply to all Demonic Energy. Here pop up all the typical questions "Does this mean Demons all have the powers of all weapons that we can see through the series?" "Why forge weapons if Demons can do anything by themselves" "Why are some Devil Arms such a big deal in the story if Demonic Energy in general can do the same?" or on the flipside and taking into account Vergil's Alpha and Omega mentioned in the original post "Would that mean Dante should also get Vergil's Alpha and Omega abilties, they both share the same bloodline, the story emphasizes how similar they are to each other to the point of having the same smell, they are equals in combat and they are both high tier Demons"
I know I am coming as insufferable, apologies if that's the case but trust me that's it's not my objective here. I'm just trying to bring up all the hurdles that I feel potentially come up in this sort of situation.
So this scan mostly supports other sources? If that's the case then it works. Another example and such are good enough. It's not that the scan wasn't good, but it lacked a final little click to say that it wasn't an isolated event and this sort of stuff does happen in general with Demonic Energy.
The first thing that actually came to my head is that the Kirk family tricked the demons with deceit and such to keep the demons more in check, but the demons kept being a violent bunch anyways. The ambiguity of the text doesn't help. I know Demons aren't dumb (I always assumed they were like people, you find a bit of everything among them) but depending on how well a deception is done, it can get even smart individuals.
Not to mention, this whole part of the game just comes as the classic plot of "there was a big evil, but since it was too strong it could at best be sealed, now the seal is weakened and it will come back to threaten us all, please chad MC destroy it since we couldn't"
Well, the fact that their methods grew less effective over time is what came to mind, like... the Demons started to noticed they were being deceived, like how it happened in the Truman Show?. Similar to the idea proposed that Demons grew resistant to special powers used by the Kirk family.
I see your point, but I think the take we are having here lines is too filtered by the lens of a powerscaler. Gonna be blunt here, having the mention of a virtual realm and "manipulation" in a very ambiguous sentence be equated to being able to control the informational structure of a reality through a special ability and the method not working anymore meaning that Demons grew resistant to those effects and sealing comes as trying to see an upgrade where the text is vague at best. Usually when this sort of stuff happens when I research stuff I look around for the same bit in the original language...
...So I did, I actually tried to look around for the Chinese version of the text precisely due to how strangely ambiguous the English one sounds. While at first I didn't find it, I did find the Spanish one and it gives a different description:
"Thousands of years ago, the ancestors of the Coker family used their souls to seal countless Demons in the Astral Realm. The Astral Realm was the predecessor of the Demon Prison, confusing demons by recreating scenes from the real world. But as Demons kept causing wreaking havoc through the years, the Seal began to weaken and the Coker family finally decided to request the Devil Hunters to enter directly into the void and quell the riot."
Now, that doesn't invalidate the English scan, but however, shows that my interpretation wasn't as outlandish. However, for all we know, the Spanish translation could have taken liberties to make things sound cooler in their eyes. However I did find the Chinese original:
惡靈虛境
數千年前科克家族的先祖曾用自己的靈魂將難以計量的惡魔封印進了一片虚境之中,這片虚境則是惡魔監獄的前身,其通過複現真實世界的場景來迷惑惡魔。但隨著惡魔多年來的不斷破壞,封印開始逐漸鬆動,科克家族最終決定委託惡魔獵人直接進入虚境平息暴動。
Evil Spirit Realm
Thousands of years ago, the ancestors of the Cork family used their own souls to seal countless demons into a virtual world. This virtual world is the predecessor of the demon prison, which confuses the demons by reproducing scenes from the real world. But as the demons continued to destroy over the years, the seal began to loosen gradually, and the Cork family finally decided to entrust the demon hunters to directly enter the virtual world to quell the riot.
Now, this is just machine translation. I can't speak Chinese, neither I know anybody who can help me translate, so the better thing to do is ask in the translation request thread for the proper translation. But at first glance, this does align with what I said, it isn't that the Kirk family used some special control over the Virtual World that the Demons grew to resist, the Demons were being deceived with illusions. Now, one might thing, that they grew resistant to the illusions then, but the text doesn't say that anywhere, just that Demons kept being a violent bunch and that weakened the seal.
EDIT: Would be also be good to ask if the text says that it's the Virtual World the one that uses illusions or the Demon Prison, given it can be read both ways from the shoddy MTL.
Hey, hey, I did concede that Absolute Zero works because there is a proper description giving the ability to Cerberus. And to be fair, I mentioned because I have seen Absolute Zero as a way to hype up an ice attack, like this sword on Terraria that just does ice damage, an unit in Bloon Tower Defense that isn't even the most powerful ice unit, a special command in Kingdom Hearts that just shoots icicles and even in Final Fantasy it's an ice ability used by lesser enemies that don't scale to Shiva, the resident Absolute Zero user (an oddly enough in one game it's a blast of light of all things).
My bad, I explained myself poorly. I was agreeing with it, I was just mentioning how by themselves the statements wouldn't be enough, in my opinion, but work well enough together.
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Sorry for taking so long to reply, I actually took quite a bit to check the bit regarding the Virtual Realm.
IIRC, it was something about that you can't be above time and space if you still need time and space... Or was it something that your own time and space is independent of the one governing the regular one? Can't remember well. Lost track of the post rather quickly since this is a matter that's beyond (pun intended) me. Most likely I'm talking out of my caboose here though.
My point was though not that the argument in itself was invalid, rather that you need to reinforce it as much as possible to avoid trappings, which happened to me in the past.
It's not that I don't believe you. Just trying to help out here. But I'm not really the person that could judge whether this is good enough or not.
Well, if the Yamato has void-like powers then Alpha and Omega's abilities would add on top of that. Looking around a bit, this isn't exactly a Devil Arm like I initially thought, but rather a "Style" of sorts for Vergil in which he uses his typical weapons, so the abilities of the style go together with that of his weapons.I'll consider that
I'm pretty sure the original Yamato also has that property on it soo it's consistent if anything.
Yeah, so something simple like "Menu" or "Inventory" or "Item Description". It's just a minor nitpick, I admit that.
These could go in an Optional Equipment key for all characters, right? I mean, the main games also had revive items, but I can't recall if were the same.
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That was honestly a really solid analysis. While the Spanish part isn’t exactly good of an argument (since we don't support other translations that are derived from main ones), now that you’ve pointed all this out, I agree. The virtual world doesn’t quite fit as a case of information manipulation. So I’m dropping it with no hard feelings.
Anyways, I appreciate the thoughtful breakdown Tarta. Thank you for being as reasonable as you did
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Hopeless bump 
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What's left here?
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Hey, uh... no worries. Remember this is just me trying to give my 2 cents on the matter nothing else.That was honestly a really solid analysis. While the Spanish part isn’t exactly good of an argument (since we don't support other translations that are derived from main ones), now that you’ve pointed all this out, I agree. The virtual world doesn’t quite fit as a case of information manipulation. So I’m dropping it with no hard feelings.
Anyways, I appreciate the thoughtful breakdown Tarta. Thank you for being as reasonable as you did
I think some staff votes are still needed.
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Who are the staff supports I'll ping them
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Elizhaa, Planck & UchihaSlayer are the noticable ones I know... Maybe tag them?
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Try asking them in their walls as well.
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Glass too he is a know DMC knogeable member imo
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@Elizhaa @Planck69 @UchihaSlayer96 was recommended to tag yall for evaluation, the OP has been said to be up to date so there are no other arguments that need reviewing outside of that
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Was wondering something, are the different versions of a character (such as Alpha and Omega Vergil) similar to Dante's styles?
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Originally I theorized they were different timeline versions of the characters (as there is a lot of timeline fuckery with the broken gear) but since they stated it was all the same timeline I think it's just the same character through different points in time being brought to our "present"
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They're all the same characters from different points in time.
It's just Broken Gear is yeeting all of them into PoC timeline's present
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Are all these applying to demonic energy in general? Because some of them seem specific and not ordinary (exceptions being Crystal Manipulation, Reality Warping and so on)
All this looks fine except resurrection. Is the Gold Orb a demon?
I'll try and comment on the other stuff when able.
Vyfourthaccount
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I'm unsure about this especially considering the scans might be fake
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These scans are real
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Soul Manipulation and Sealing are fine, what is Void Manipulation from, just the name? Does it fit our Void Manipulation standards?
So I noticed some comments regarding if this would count as EG intelligence, and while this might be based on opinion, we have characters who do get intelligence from things like mastering things though this can be seen as an ability, they'd still contain the knowledge of the task they mastered, and you'd half to take into account who also exists in the verse as a comparison.
What I think needs to be added are his/Vergil's feats because just saying he can master any task means nothing without some substance but I can see what's suggested being acceptable.
That's something you need to prove.
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Those chest contains cards that are powered by raw Demonic Energy soo they are definitely applicable. Illusions have clear cut statement. Reality Warping and Crystal Manipulation as you said are fine. Exquisite Elixir are also extracted from Demons to upgrade weapons. The only thing that may be arguable is Staff of Darkness and Iron Cane but they both seem to be purely operating on the basics of Demonic Energy as we established on the physiology page right now soo they feel better as consistency or backup support one may say.
Those gold orbs are products of some special kind of magic and kinda common in games as well soo I felt like he should have it by default considering the entire concept about him is being everything in the verse from lore standpoint.
But if you aren't satisfied then I can remove that I suppose.
Okay so I just recently realized that Yamato don't have Void hax on its profile already despite a similar weapon like Rebellion was able to harm Void Mundus who is nothingness itself which is on Dante's profile labeled as "Enhanced Non-physical interaction (void)"
Honestly he should logically have it and I might argue it as a sort of backup for it if anything. What do you think?
They already demonstrated amazing skills in weapons they have never even seen before let alone using them and had great precision feats unlike anything whatsoever so they very well have backups for these claims. You can look inside Sparda section in Demon Physiology Page to get the idea. All the acrobatic, skills and precision feats are present there.
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Vyfourthaccount
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I said I was unsure
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The Gold Orbs could be added as equipment for everyone else, correct.
The issue I see with Argosax is that, even if we did include items in his abilities, he was killed in DMC2 and no mention of being able to resurrect IIRC. I know that's because of several "meta" reasons (two different games, made by different people, a split between gameplay and narrative, etc.), but it's something that should be considered.
I see, that's how they can explain older and younger incarnations of the characters being in the game, as well. Just asking out of curiosity, how are the different versions of the characters incorporated in the profiles? I initially wondered if they were similar to styles, because afaik, those are all abilities Dante can freely use but gameplay wise they are separated by the style mechanic.
From what I understand, being able to destroy nothingness is just very good NPI, not quite Void Manipulation, similar to being able to harm souls isn't Soul Manipulation.
I don't know well the context of Dante's fight with Void Mundus, but his NPI could also be thanks to his Demonic Energy? Dunno, if that were the case Vergil as his brother and equal could also get it that way. I do believe you when you say the Yamato and the Rebellion are similar weapons, but if that's the case it must be explained and backed up properly so the properties of one are justified on the other.
Don't want to be annoying here, but better save this for later or the whole thread might focus on this single point like it happened before.
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Or you know... Dante could've killed him this time beyond any meager ressurection unlike his father who sealed him?
Also yeah the gold orbs are one of standard equipments in the games.
We just implement them like they are the same character. There isn't much of a difference either way. They have similar style and equipments for the most part.
I'd let either @GilverTheProtoAngelo or @Unoriginal777 handle this part for me.
Alright.
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Yeah, DMC4 and PoC does explain that that demonic power can ressurect demons even on the Human Would when the efects are weaker
Plus, Dante fough Argosax in the Underworld where the facts are far stronger, and yet the Demon King did not ressurect even decates after DMC2 events, so yeah, ressurection negation is fine here atm
Argosax will get anything Void Mundus have and far more. Sparda could interact and seal him, so all his descendents scale to it since Sparda did not need his swords to Interact with him
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To be honest, I did think of this, but wasn't sure if I was making too many assumptions. Though given what Mister6 mentions below, it's actually well substained by the story.
Ah, neat.
Gotcha, good to know. To be fair, they are the same characters and all, but I was wondering where the abilities would go in the profiles themselves, which key specifically. I'm guessing it would be matching the closest in age? Kinda like, a DMC5 Dante variant is Chef Dante and his delicious pizza recipe, then that would go to his DMC5 era keys and such.
It's just a recommendation, nothing else. But, it seemingly is non-issue if what Mister6 mentions is true (elaborated below):
Noted. That's pretty good backup actually.
I mean, yes, I agree on that. I think we were talking about Vergil's Alpha and Omega and how his thechnique being called Void Slash (and the meter being called Voidness) wasn't enough for Void Manipulation. SonicTL, brought up that the Yamato should get Void NPI given Dante's Rebellion harmed Void Mundus, but if what you mention that Sparda just defeated him with his own abilities, then the Void NPI would go to Demonic Energy itself instead and scale to Vergil's abilities overall, not just the Yamato.
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Yeap i noticed that just wanted to support the ability of Interacting with voids. Sparda defeating and Sealing Argosax is on his profile rn
Plus: Mundus and Abigail is stated in DMC5 (Also already accepted in their profiles) that they rival Argosax in power. So not just the Sparda's DE and his descendents gets that but the God tiers in general
Also bumping this thread since it almost finished can't die rn
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So long as they are sourced from demonic energy then I guess it's fine.
It doesn't say he's everything, it says demons and there power, so unless the orbs come from demons or their power, I wouldn't say he should have their effect. I guess if their common in the DW then you could potentially add them as equipment.
Scaling it off Rebellion should be fine, both were made by Sparda.
I know, I'm just looking at it from a view of a casual, they'd be expecting to see the feats. I do agree with the addition.
I forgot to check this portion of the revision.
Agree with everything but BDE, nothing says she lacks dimensions (spatial or temporal) it just says she exists in a place outside of space and time, her being in that place doesn't mean she lacks those aspects, especially when your trying to argue Higher Dimensional Existence for her as well. She needs to be shown or stated to lack those aspects as the page mentions she'd appear to lack dimensions or such things.
I guess NEP and Dream Manipulation are fine but I disagree with HDE, transcending here is revolving around their non-existent nature, not because they are Higher Dimensional beings that's why it mentions you need to wait till they take a physical form, not lower their dimensionality. And existing beyond space and time doesn't support HDE as either, as it lacks details. Something being "Beyond" does not equal a higher existence unless it's defined that way and nothing posted fully defines them as such. I won't even bother using my thoughts on other verses that have the same statements since I didn't agree with those ones but this isn't the same verse so I won't make comparison.
You stated that you'd go more in depth in future threads so I'll wait till then but as of now the evidence for BDE and HDE aren't sufficient in my opinion.
This is fine.
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