SHINZA 1-A THREAD (PART ONE)

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Because once Merc dies, Ren loses all of his godhood. Even Masada said that Ren becoming a god through Merc blood is not a genuine god like Merc and Marie. And even Ren in Three Colors, the one whose craving equals to Merc, at a value of 90, lost his godhood with Merc gone. I don't see how it should be any different in the K3 scenario when Ren lost his Merc blood in him and lost his one-way ticket to godhood. Point is, Ren lost his qualifications, but he broke the rules and stayed as a god as someone that no longer has any qualifications. Having a strong enough craving is fine on its own, it's a problem when the one becoming a god doesn't have the right to it from birth or an external factor anymore. Ren just busts through the gap by his own power, which is a no no by the wiki's standards.

Like I said he absorbed Merc's essence. He died yes but parts of it lived on so he didn't lose it per say. It's a different way he managed to kept his godhood since it's a "fusion"

Eh, I don't think the origin of their distortions being from Numahime matters in this context? Without much evidence for this fact to be a reason why Keishirou can affect Morei's attack, it's speculation at best. Fair on Habaki though. I'm not 100% sold, but I see the logic, and I'm not confident enough to refute it.
I take it you agree that Yakou pre-third eye is indeed at the TK level/God level? He's not a real or pseudo god at this point, but he can wield divine power regardless.

I mean yeah why else Awaumi die if not. Since he has taiji but very nerfed (will explain later).

TK value of 0? False, it's 2. So his AP is TK 2 as well. TK value of 0 does not exist, you either have it or you don't, and it doesn't start at 0, why even use old misinformation? Just because it's colorless and in development, it does not detract that Yakou does have TK and its value is 2. When he summoned the meteorite to kill Awaumi, the text explicitly says he manipulates Taikyoku. And the only way to kill Awaumi at that point was to have TK with the only other option is Ryumei using Shura Mandala and suicide bombing Awaumi.

And I think the 0 taiji is less on value but more like since Yakou's taiji is colorless its EFFECTIVELY 0 rather than numerically 0. The lack of desire makes his taiji lack in any way to effect things (doesn't mean he can't kill Awaumi).

I know I'll sound like a broken record, but could you provide the scans that says the Throne specifically transcends all? Because there are weird cases like Merc transcending all concepts and that was a liberty by the official translation and not from the raws themselves.

Here at 0:55 ish

Reinhard says 総てを超越して達する至高の座 which roughly transcends to: To transcend everything and reach the supreme throne

Manuscript translation came from here

 

[Humanitus_Primevilus888]

I suggest the God tiers, the Throne, Singularity, and the like to be low 1-C as the Throne is described as a hyperdimensional space and Yato being a higher dimensional existence. However, I am ashamed to admit that I am not the most knowledgeable of Paradise Lost, another entry in the series that has no official translation. Since Redgraves mentioned the higher dimensions in PL, the verse could end up being normal 1-C. As I recall, there are 10 dimensions that reflect the tree of Sefirot, and the Throne exists on Keter at the top. So long as the nature of those dimensions are described as spatial and temporal dimensions, I don't mind a 1-C rating.

For now, I'm in favor of low 1-C. The rest of the supporters can argue for 1-C due to the higher dimensions in PL.

I don’t know or why you came to the conclusion of just because it is stated to be a “hyperdimensional -space” you give it a low 1-C already. like In paradise lost where it’s revealed that it contains higher dimensions( which is 10 or more ) and further into dies irae where the singularity is described as a “ perfectly blank slate” or a “colorless canvas”. It is further implied that the Gods only see all of creation as a mandala and a picture which concludes the relationship between the two are that a “painting”a “painter”. And a painter is unreachable/untouchable for the painting it like a relationship of a 1-A and a non 1-A, where a non 1-A characters is nothing but fiction/illusion to a 1-A character

 

[PrinceofPein]

This will be my last post on the matter, as this thread is already on its 4th page.
My next post will be bringing out the summary of each arguments that have been made from the beginning of the thread and what has been conceded and whatnot and links to each of the arguments.


There is no need to reply to this last post, @TISSG7Redgrave please I will appreciate it if you can also stop arguing so we can give staffs to chance to evaluate.

TK value of 0? False, it's 2. So his AP is TK 2 as well.

Did you read what I wrote? let me requote it for you

his taikyoku gives him the ability to view the world like a painting but due to the fact that he has no craving and he is not a real god, he cannot not manipulate anything outside of the world, which is why he can summon things but he can't affect or change them. Irregardless, his effective Taikyoku value is 0 at this point of the story,

His coloured taikyoku number at that point of the story is 0. And that is not wrong. What he has is colorless taikyoku

TK value of 0 does not exist, you either have it or you don't, and it doesn't start at 0, why even use old misinformation?

Please read above

Just because it's colorless and in development, it does not detract that Yakou does have TK and its value is 2.

Colourless taikyoku means you can only do things within the laws of the world and not outside of it

When he summoned the meteorite to kill Awaumi, the text explicitly says he manipulates Taikyoku. And the only way to kill Awaumi at that point was to have TK with the only other option is Ryumei using Shura Mandala and suicide bombing Awaumi.

Does not change the fact that what he has is colorless taikyoku.

Also, the scan I sent says to overcome Morei's attacks, you have to change the laws of the world and Yakou does exactly that. And Yakou is stated to be disconnected from the world also, being a singularity and all.

Spoiler: Yakou vs Morei at Fuwanoseki 1

　金は木に〈剋〉《か》つ――道理だが、根本の格が違っている。山をも両断する母禮の〈雷〉《イカヅチ》は異界の法で編まれており、言わば人が知っている稲妻とは別概念のものなのだ。

　ゆえにそれを剋すなら世界法則の改変こそが必須となり、並の術者が万人掛かりでも防げるようなものではない。

　そんな猛撃を都合十一、ここに至るまで夜行は凌ぎ続けている。初撃において覇吐らが全滅を免れたのも、実のところ彼のお陰に他ならない。

　よって現状、母禮は攻撃の総てを無効化されていることになり、そうした意味でも夜行優勢……のように見えるのだが。

Metal overcomes wood - that's the truth, but the fundamentals are different. Morei's lightning, which can even split mountains in two, is woven with the laws of another world, and is a different concept from the lightning humans know.

Therefore, to overcome it, it is necessary to change the laws of the world, and it is not something that even an average magician can prevent, even with the efforts of many people.

Yakou has endured such a fierce attack a total of eleven times up to this point. In fact, it was only thanks to him that Habaki and the others were able to avoid annihilation in the first attack.

Therefore, all of Morei's attacks have been nullified, and in that sense, Yakou seems to have the upper hand... or so it seems.

I already addressed that this was Morei with her TK deactivated that made those attacks as well when I brought up this topic? It's not like I left that out. My argument is that even with her TK deactivated, her AP is still TK due to passive buffs from having it.

Yes and the EE would have died without having Yakou, and even with Yakou they got stomped massively.
Based on your post, you are only arguing that there is no gap in power between their abilities.

Yakou's TK isn't on the level of the Tenma's, it doesn't deny that his TK is genuine and on the level of TK itself. It just means his TK is weaker currently.

Okay, I never said his TK is not real, they are real, just colorless, which means he only manipulate things within the laws of the world.
Which actually makes this argument irrelevant, nothing that is not powered by Taikyoku was ever able to affect taikyoku. Distortion, Color/Colourless Taikyoku, Big bang, sensories, apoptosis e.t.c are all powered by Taikyoku so hence they could affect Taikyoku things or use Taikyoku.

I didn't concede to being wrong? Stop putting words in my mouth. I am still of the mind that the Yatsukahagi in that ranking are the ones with TK. I'm saying I don't have to go the effort to refute it because my other points can hold on their own. The ranking works more as supporting evidence.

Except you have been proven wrong on that point. It is strictly about strength.

Is there a problem to being inactive and lurking for years, only to become active again when a series I follow is getting threads again?
I don't know what a sock proxy is, it's just me only here. The guy who made comments from years back and even now are the same guy. I'm not purposefully leaving stuff out, cuz it's been a long time that I've had to discuss K3 and others, so it's not like I have every scan and context on me. I'm only arguing within the limits of refreshing myself with the information I need, since I'm arguing on the basis of low 1-C Shinza. You just convinced yourself that I'm a troll when I'm being genuinely serious here with my own opinion and interpretations. Me having different opinions doesn't mean I'm actually being coy or dishonest.

There is no problem it is just really suspicious, especially when your arguments keeps coming from ignorance and misinformation.
If it has been a long time you read a series, then go and read it again, not that you will make arguments and then when you get called out, you go back and read it.

Heck, Redgrave's over here seems to have different ideas from your own as well, Pein, considering he sorta agrees that Yakou's TK pre-third eye is TK level.

Yes colourless taikyoku will be 1-A no matter what, as that is a singularity. What I am arguing is coloured taikyoku >>> pseudo gods taikyoku >>> colourless taikyoku >>> distortions. The point is that nothing of 1-A level was affected without it being of 1-A level or being powered by something of 1-A level

Redgrave does not thing colorless taikyoku is as strong as coloured taikyoku, heck even you do not think that. Besides, that is an argument that we will sort out when we are arguing about the pages and what key scales to what.


Please respond to this question, was there ever any instance of non-Taikyoku affecting Taikyoku without it being powered by Taikyoku? That is the only thing that matters here, so you can respond to this line.

 

[Legacy30]

snip

At least you responded more level-headed instead of being rude and aggressive as usual, which I am thankful for. I wouldn't say my arguments were found on ignorance or misinformation, imo. And actually, I do make sure to reread certain stuff with each reply I received.

And yeah, I do agree that colorless Taikyoku < colored Taikyoku. I just don't agree that the effective AP of Yakou's colorless Taikyoku should be a value of 0. It's a compatibility issue imo.

Huh, so you're going to rate Yakou's colorless Taikyoku as 1-A? I suppose you would believe it since Yakou's colorless Taikyoku had the descriptions of viewing things as a mandala, disconnected from the world, and being a singularity.

Please respond to this question, was there ever any instance of non-Taikyoku affecting Taikyoku without it being powered by Taikyoku? That is the only thing that matters here, so you can respond to this line.

Well, do you think Yakou's AP is 1-A with having colorless Taikyoku also? If so, Morei, and I mean Morei without having activated her TK, can overpower Yakou's AP and even harm his existence, so my thoughts are that her passive buff from having TK means even in this state she can dish out attacks with TK AP. As a matter of fact, even jp players believe it too and it's even mentioned on the atwiki. I know, not a very infallible source since it's no different from a fandom wiki. But it is what originally led me to bring up this topic and research it.

自身の太極を「閉じる」ことができる（本物の神格は自身の流出を止められない）。所謂任意で発動する必殺技のような扱いが可能。ただし閉じたからといってただの人に戻るわけでもなく、太極に比べれば低位階に落ちるもののその身の硬さは頑強さというより別位相の物理を体現していると言われる程。例えるならば絵の中でどれだけ力を振るおうと、それを読む現実の人間に影響を及ぼせるわけもないとのと同じ理屈。逆に現実で絵を破くことなど造作もない。しかしこれでも前記の通り、多少特殊な人の身でも相性が合えば跳ね返せる低位階の業である。本来の力を揮えば絶対法則、神格同士でしか通じなくなる。ちなみに母禮は無形とはいえ曲がりなりにも太極の夜行の力をその炎で消滅させているので、閉じている状態であろうと太極に分類される状態。つまり太極の能力を位階を落とした上で使用可能かつ、太極を閉じていても随神相の顕現が可能。

This is from the atwiki. Not from any source from the games and whatnot.
If going by this logic, Morei's TK AP attacks can get manipulated and controlled by Keishirou's distortion who has no Taikyoku empowering him during Fuwanoseki. Redgrave said it's due to its origins being from Numahime, but I'm not sold on that one, though, since Numahime said their distortions have become their own thing after 300 years. There's also the Awaumi case, but that's been exhaustively talked about in the first and second pages, so let's not argue about that. I'll leave that to the staff to evaluate.

And don't worry. I have honestly exhausted everything I wanted to say, there's no new points or potential anti-feats to come up later. If there's no more questions, I think this will be my last post and I'll sit back and watch things unfold from here. And do something about the vote manipulation, neither ant and firestorm have cast a vote agreeing to the thread proposals, so you can remove firestorm from the OP.

 

[PrinceofPein]

At least you responded more level-headed instead of being rude and aggressive as usual, which I am thankful for. I wouldn't say my arguments were found on ignorance or misinformation, imo. And actually, I do make sure to reread certain stuff with each reply I received.

Sorry about that, I am just very skeptical due to your previous arguments. You never addressed the blog's arguments or points, you just tried to nitpick things you thought would be anti-feats and that looked really disruptive, which was why I concluded it might be you being dishonest. I apologize for that once more.

And yeah, I do agree that colorless Taiykoku < colored Taikyoku. I just don't agree that the effective AP of Yakou's colorless Taikyoku should be a value of 0. It's a compatibility issue imo.

Huh, so you're going to rate Yakou's colorless Taikyoku as 1-A? I suppose you would believe it since Yakou's colorless Taikyoku had the descriptions of viewing things as a mandala, disconnected from the world, and being a singularity.

Yes, if he has taikyoku, he would be 1-A powered. The application of the taikyoku is what I am arguing for

Well, do you think Yakou's AP is 1-A with having colorless Taikyoku also? If so, Morei, and I mean Morei without having activated her TK, can overpower Yakou's AP and even harm his existence, so my thoughts are that her passive buff from having TK means even in this state she can dish out attacks with TK AP. As a matter of fact, even jp players believe it too and it's even mentioned on the atwiki. I know, not a very infallible source. But it is what originally led me to bring up this topic and research it.

I was on Discord now, and yes, I am sold on that point that no matter, their AP would be 1-A, for anything powered by Taikyoku. Also please always provide translations when you post scans in Japanese
Here is a rough TL of the scan he posted

It is possible to "close" one's own Taikyoku (whereas a true divine entity cannot stop their own emanation). This allows it to function like an ultimate move that can be activated at will. However, closing it does not mean reverting to being an ordinary person. While the user falls to a lower rank compared to Taikyoku, their physical resilience is said to embody a different phase of physics rather than mere toughness.
To illustrate, no matter how much force is exerted within a painting, it cannot affect the real person reading it just as tearing the painting in reality is effortless. Likewise, despite being a lower-tier phenomenon, it can still be repelled by those with special traits if their compatibility aligns.
When wielding its true power, it becomes an absolute law, comprehensible only between divine beings.
Notably, despite being intangible, Bōrei (母禮) has extinguished the night-walking power of Taikyoku with its flames. Thus, even when in a "closed" state, it is still categorized as Taikyoku. In other words, the abilities of Taikyoku can be used at a lower rank, and even with Taikyoku "closed," the manifestation of a divine presence (随神相) remains possible.

So yes, even without your Taikyoku, you cannot be affected by something not powered by Taikyoku. As seen in this scan you posted.

If going by this logic, Morei's TK AP attacks can get manipulated and controlled by Keishirou's distortion who has no Taikyoku empowering him during Fuwanoseki. Redgrave said it's due to its origins being from Numahime, but I'm not sold on that one, though. There's also the Awaumi case, but that's been exhaustively talked about in the first and second pages, so let's not argue about that. I'll leave that to the staff to evaluate.

I agree with Redgrave on that point, Distortions come from a being that is 1-A powered so they should be able to affect things that are 1-A powered. Morei's lightning is not her taikyoku; she powers them regardless making them 1-A, so it does make sense that they can be controlled by something 1-A powered. To put it simply, in VS Wiki, we allow for people to have hax higher than their own level of AP. In Keishirou's profile, it will be "Low 6-B physically, 1-A via distortion."
So it is not like Keishirou himself would be 1-A, just his hax powered by taikyoku would be 1-A.
Which was why I asked you to provide instance of something not powered by Taikyoku affecting Taikyoku or something powered by it.

And don't worry. I have honestly exhausted everything I wanted to say, there's no new points or potential anti-feats to come up later. If there's no more questions, I think this will be my last post and I'll sit back and watch things unfold from here.

Okay, that is fine. I am writing up the summary, trying to bring up all the points made in this thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Here is the summary of all the arguments. What has been conceded and what has not been.
If I leave out anything or impartial, someone please do call me out on that.

First and foremost, the main argument in the blog has not been disproven in any form. What the opposition @Legacy30 tried to do was bring out instances where he thinks something not 1-A affects 1-A, hence meaning the gods are not 1-A. His other argument is that someone attaining godhood without being powered by another god.
As @Tarang123 said and I quote

If you really want to challenge the 1A rating, you have to really challenge the validity of the core of the argument, not make nitpicks that don't really mean anything.

Which is something the opposition has not done

THE FIRST WAVE OF ARGUMENT IS THIS
Here is his first post and more arguments from him on it
The summary of it is that
1. Awaumi who is supposed to be 1-A powered, was affected by soujiro who is non 1-A.
2. Bahlavan a non-god could destroy Nadare, who is supposed to be a pseudo god
3. The 3 commanders fought Ren

Here were the counter arguments to his point
The summary of them is that
1. Awaumi has no time armour or taikyoku hence she is not 1-A powered like the opposition claimed
2. The claim that Bahlavan can kill Nadare is false. Nadares are picked and fated to die only after all Daevas are dead and since Bahlavan himself is a Daeva, he cannot kill Nadare. And besides Nadare's only 1-A shtick is her immortality which no-one except a Magsarion was able to overcome after achieving godhood
3. The 3 commanders were stated to be close to Atziluth level making them pseudo-gods powered by Reinhard

Conclusion
Here was @Legacy30 conceding on point 3, the rest of his points were dropped and arguments were stopped for them.

THE SECOND WAVE OF ARGUMENTS
The summary of the opposition's argument is that
1. The difference between Taikyoku and non-Taikyoku is a dimension difference and not 1-A cause the throne was called hyper-dimension
2. Ren becoming a God even though he has no qualification to do so from birth
3. Yakou exists in the throne as a mortal after he was stripped of his taikyoku
4. The method of reaching the Throne by Magsarion. (Magsarion kills every living being in the universe and this seemingly opens a direct path to the Throne where he just skips through the singularity). What magsarion did shouldn't affect 1-A space hence he should not have been able to reach the throne.
5. Keishirou could manipulate Morei's lightning.

Here were the counters to his post
1. This is not consequential as 1-A places been called higher-dimension does not affect it being 1-A anymore based on our standard. which is proving that it holds a R>F difference
2. Ren was created to take the place of Mercurius by Mercurius
3. Yakou did not actually survive he died and talks that happen when dying does not count as surviving as talking is a free action, so it will not count as him surviving and he was only brought back after death due to Ryuusui's Taikyoku
4. (The idea is to shrink the universe and converging it until the Godhead focuses only on him. It's "opening" via forcing Mithra to only look at him. Satanael even tried this via ragnarok (but failed as Muzan did not care in the slightest))
5. Keishirou uses distortions which are Taikyoku powered

Conclusion
The 3rd was thrown out and 4th point was ended with the prove of it happening in this post by @Legacy30 , which was something that happened. The other arguments are still going on or dropped.

MY CONCLUSION
The opposition even though he failed to address to the arguments in the blog, brought up things that would have been anti-feat if they had been true, but none of it holds true or they were misconceptions.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I agree with Pein.

 

[Legacy30]

THE SECOND WAVE OF ARGUMENTS
The summary of the opposition's argument is that
1. The difference between Taikyoku and non-Taikyoku is a dimension difference and not 1-A cause the throne was called hyper-dimension
2. Ren becoming a God even though he has no qualification to do so from birth
3. Yakou exists in the throne as a mortal after he was stripped of his taikyoku
4. The method of reaching the Throne by Magsarion. (Magsarion kills every living being in the universe and this seemingly opens a direct path to the Throne where he just skips through the singularity). What magsarion did shouldn't affect 1-A space hence he should not have been able to reach the throne.
5. Keishirou could manipulate Morei's lightning.

Here were the counters to his post
1. This is not consequential as 1-A places been called higher-dimension does not affect it being 1-A anymore based on our standard. which is proving that it holds a R>F difference
2. Ren was created to take the place of Mercurius by Mercurius
3. Yakou did not actually survive and he was only brought back due to Ryuusui's Taikyoku
4. (The idea is to shrink the universe and converging it until the Godhead focuses only on him. It's "opening" via forcing Mithra to only look at him. Satanael even tried this via ragnarok (but failed as Muzan did not care in the slightest))
5. Keishirou uses distortions which are Taikyoku powered

Conclusion
The 3rd and 4th point was conceded in this post by @Legacy30 , the other argument are still going on or dropped.

MY CONCLUSION
The opposition even though he failed to address to the arguments in the blog, bring up things that would have been anti-feat if they had been true, but none of it holds true or they were misconceptions.

Correction, the 3rd and 4th point I have not conceded yet. The former I've said as much as I needed and have not been convinced of Redgrave's argument. The latter is something I'm still waiting for Redgrave to post scans of.

REALLY sorry about jumping in again to post another comment after my last comment. I will now stay quiet from here on .

 

[PrinceofPein]

Correction, the 3rd and 4th point I have not conceded yet. The former I've said as much as I needed and have not been convinced of Redgrave's argument. The latter is something I'm still waiting for Redgrave to post scans of.

For point 3, you said

Just because he died later doesn't excuse that he endured all that, long enough for Ryuusui to come running after his fallen body and talk to him for some time. Oh well, agree to disagree, since I don't think there's much more to be said about it, so let the staff decide which is more accurate.

He survived for about less than 5minutes, due to the talks going on. it is called fiction and talking is a free action. But if you did not concede, I will remove it.
For point 4, you said

That is interesting. Can I see scans of that? Limited to Avesta, the text does not indicate any involvement from Shinga bringing him to the Throne. It only describes Mags' efforts to reach the Throne alone and that it just works. If this method is described similar to what Mags' was doing, then I can concede this point, but only if you post scans of it in this thread.

PL scans are hard to get but that's what happened.
Mags absorbs wishes and kills everything in the world part in order to force mithra to look at him alone.
I will remove it as a concession though.

REALLY sorry about jumping in again to post another comment after my last comment. I will now stay quiet from here on .

It is totally fine, you can always comment to correct things or your stance on things for the summary

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Um...:

It is possible to "close" one's own Taikyoku (whereas a true divine entity cannot stop their own emanation). This allows it to function like an ultimate move that can be activated at will. However, closing it does not mean reverting to being an ordinary person. While the user falls to a lower rank compared to Taikyoku, their physical resilience is said to embody a different phase of physics rather than mere toughness.
To illustrate, no matter how much force is exerted within a painting, it cannot affect the real person reading it just as tearing the painting in reality is effortless. Likewise, despite being a lower-tier phenomenon, it can still be repelled by those with special traits if their compatibility aligns.
When wielding its true power, it becomes an absolute law, comprehensible only between divine beings.
Notably, despite being intangible, Bōrei (母禮) has extinguished the night-walking power of Taikyoku with its flames. Thus, even when in a "closed" state, it is still categorized as Taikyoku. In other words, the abilities of Taikyoku can be used at a lower rank, and even with Taikyoku "closed," the manifestation of a divine presence (随神相) remains possible.

I have to say even for smth rough this is kinda...WEIRD cuz it got things like Morei and Yakou and 随神相 is the Kamunagara thingy...I don't want people to think Morei had a cousin called Borei. Or how there isn't really smth like "lower-tier phenomenon"

Here's the actual thing:

"It is possible to "close" one's own Taikyoku (real divinity cannot stop their own emanation/outflow). It is possible to treat it as to invoke killer technique that can be activated at will arbitrarily so to speak. However closing it doesn't mean they revert back to a mere human. Although they fall to a lower rank compared to Taikyoku, rather than robustness/resistance the body's hardness still embodies the physics of a different phase/topology. To illustrate is the same logic as, no matter how much power one exercises inside the picture/painting, it has no way to impact to the person in reality reading it. Conversely reality would have no trouble in tearing the picture/painting. However as mentioned above, even with the body of a somewhat special person (distortion) can have their Taikyoku (idk this never specified) be repelled if their compatibility fits (example was: Habaki's distortion) even with a lower ability. To display the true power of absolute law, it can only be done with fellow divinities. Incidentally, with Morei, Mukei with Yakou's taikyoku power although somehow was able to extinguish her fire, the state is still categorized as Taikyoku even if the state is closed. In other word, the ability of taikyoku is possible to be used in a dropped rank, even if their taikyoku closed a manifestation of Kamunagara is possible."

しかしこれでも前記の通り、多少特殊な人の身でも相性が合えば跳ね返せる低位階の業である。was hard for me but I suspect its talking that Habaki despite being a distortion can repel taiji but only cuz his compatibility (and tumor sensory shtick) so it checks out for him at least (the wiki also links distortion for 特殊な人の身 and Habaki's distortion for 相性が合えば跳ね返せる).

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Going through the blog (Not the following 4 pages of discussion, mind you. So correct me if I miss anything here), I'd say 1-A is appropriate here, yeah. Broadly I take the argument to be "The Gods govern absolutely all concepts in creation and simultaneously are above these concepts, which would include phenomena like dimensions and spacetime," yeah? If so, the evidence is satisfying enough for me.

Granted that, I have a hang-up with this bit:

And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness.

The "another phase of physics" concerns me a bit. It sounds the like the overall intention of the scene is to give a reality/fiction analogy to the relationship between a higher-dimensional space and a lower-dimensional space. The fact it refers to it as explicitly a physics-related thing seems to reinforce that reading of the text. Have you anything to say with regards to that?

 

[PrinceofPein]

The "another phase of physics" concerns me a bit. It sounds the like the overall intention of the scene is to give a reality/fiction analogy to the relationship between a higher-dimensional space and a lower-dimensional space. The fact it refers to it as explicitly a physics-related thing seems to reinforce that reading of the text. Have you anything to say with regards to that?

That was soujiro's narrative and the narrator speaking to clarify what was going on and the intention of the scene is to show the difference between a pseudo-god and a human(can't really call him human too).
To explain better, a pseudo god is not a real god, but rather someone who a god boosted at that moment. Yato an actual god, borrowed Tenma Akuro(the one in the scene) taikyoku, in that scene during the fight, Akuro activated the taikyoku, and that was when the narrator said that. The narration was not explaining dimensional space but rather it was trying to explain what soujiro felt the moment he attacked Akuro.
Soujiro POV:

And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness

Narrator:

To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

Soujiro POV:

A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.

Narrator:

And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.

The " different phase of physics" part was it felt like for soujiro when he was trying to attack akuro.

These were not in the blog(I got them when more proof of R>F was requested) but here is more of relationship between the gods and the world.

「私にとって、万象はこの曼荼羅だ。景色は遠い。美しいが掛け離れている」
To me— all creation is this very mandala. The scenery is distant— beautiful, yet utterly detached.

The God views the world as a canvas, There are many of this instance but the point has been made

The description used to describe the world is a picture and painting

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That was soujiro's narrative and the narrator speaking to clarify what was going on and the intention of the scene is to show the difference between a pseudo-god and a human(can't really call him human too).
To explain better, a pseudo god is not a real god, but rather someone who a god boosted at that moment. Yato an actual god, borrowed Tenma Akuro(the one in the scene) taikyoku, in that scene during the fight, Akuro activated the taikyoku, and that was when the narrator said that. The narration was not explaining dimensional space but rather it was trying to explain what soujiro felt the moment he attacked Akuro.
Soujiro POV:

Narrator:

Soujiro POV:

Narrator:

The " different phase of physics" part was it felt like for soujiro when he was trying to attack akuro.

These were not in the blog(I got them when more proof of R>F was requested) but here is more of relationship between the gods and the world.

「私にとって、万象はこの曼荼羅だ。景色は遠い。美しいが掛け離れている」
To me— all creation is this very mandala. The scenery is distant— beautiful, yet utterly detached.

The God views the world as a canvas, There are many of this instance but the point has been made

The description used to describe the world is a picture and painting

Yeah, fair enough. With that said, I'll go over the back-and-forth between Legacy and you/Red to give a veredict.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yeah, fair enough. With that said, I'll go over the back-and-forth between Legacy and you/Red to give a veredict.

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, fair enough. With that said, I'll go over the back-and-forth between Legacy and you/Red to give a veredict.

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Kev_Nino36U]

Hello, I hope you all are well.

I asked Antvasima for permission to make a post on this thread, and he gave me the chance to.

I disagree for the 1-A rating for Shinza Banshou, so I want to bring up a point that needs to be adressed.

Simply put, complete gods/Taikyoku users aren't really qualitatively superior to Shinza's baseline, "physical" reality. We know this as a matter of fact because Hadou god's power are influenced by a component of said baseline reality, souls.

The power of a Hadou god is defined by the strenght of his craving (What you guys seem to call "Taikyoku values"), and the quality and quantity of souls within their territory, as they use them as fuel for their attacks. Masada brings this up every time Hadou gods fight. For example, during the Mitsudomoe/Three-way-battle between Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius by the end of Rea's route is explicitly stated that there wasn't a big difference between the three god's individual power, but that Ren's lack of a legion made him the weaker one of the three, as Reinhard had millions of high-quiality souls under his domain, and Mercurius had countless of low-quality mortal souls given that he was the Throne god.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Gyazo

gyazo.com

And, we also know that mortal souls aren't "1-A at their core" or something like that not only because they are physicaly contained within people's bodies, but also because they can be manipulated by characters whose power ia bound to the baseline reality, like every Die Ewigkeit user/Apostle on the story. So this should be enough to prove that Big bang/Atziluth/Taikyoku users aren't ontologically superior to the baseline reality, thus negating the 1-A rating.

Also, the idea that Taikyoku users can't be affected by things that don't have Taikyoku is blatantly false, it's only the norm. During Kajiri Kamui Kagura we saw Hajun being weakened because mortal souls were clinging to his body; also when Keishiro and Sakuya achieved Moksha and freed themselves from the Tengu-dou they created a crack on Hajun's law, which is also his body. And if that wasn't enough, in Kokubyaku no Avesta we saw Endgame Varhram and Madou Magsarion, both Taikyokuless beings, being superior to Mitra, the latter even bisected her in a single strike at the start of his fight against her. Mitra even said that "She hadn't felt such an overwhelming difference in power since her fights with Sakra on the age of Zero."

All of the facts that I pointed above are key for the stories on their respectives eras, not only statements for poetic value and thus I think that they should supersede the flowery descriptions of Taikyoku in Kajiri Kamui Kagura, especially given that both the Mitsudomoe battle and Avesta are more recent that those descriptions in KKK.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Not home and i am on mobile, so this will be short and This is the only reply that matters;
Souls are directly from the throne of God and born from them; hence, why souls in shinza banshou are special. If you will be able to digest it better souls are like cells of the throne God, everything is him and he is everything. Souls are the most essential thing in shinza, you should know that much. Simply put Souls are not from reality, they flow from the throne God himself and the entire point of the throne is to keep the cycle of souls going so souls do not stop getting produced.
Now a little rant
In fact the fight between Mithra and Magsarion you wrong quoted, Mags was a Madou before he faced Mithra, Mithra did not allow him win because his souls craving was not Hadou oriented and he cannot sit on the throne and a vacant throne means souls will not be born and souls not being born means patheon would not happen. Souls needs to be born from the Throne God so the observers(Naraka) can pick the souls who qualifies to be a hegemony God and help him to take the throne next, till the number of hegemony God is complete for Patheon. This that I just said is the entire point of all the entries of Shinza from Avesta up till the 7th throne. And I am tired of replying people who do not know much about the series or only read DI and decides they wish to argue. Infact one of your scans from DI directly states that souls are from the God current god. And more from kaziklu bey on

「過日、世界は神秘に満ち、神々の時代であったという点は否定しない。だがならば、なぜ今はこのようになっている?城は飛ばず、魔術は廃れ、かつての真実は幻想の類とされ始めているではないか。改めて見回すにこれは退化だ。物質的には豊かとなりつつあるかもしれんが、霊的には後退している。少なくとも、おまえを除く現代の魔術師たちは脆弱だ。空を飛ぶということにすら、生涯費やしても届かぬ者が多いのだろう。その程度、昔はただの子供ですらやっていたはずだというのに」
...........
「母体が壮健であればあるほど、寄生虫もまた元気が良いか」
の男が使いそうな喩えを先回りして口にした。つまりかつての超常的繁栄は、世界が若者であったからにすぎないというのだろう。魔道の始祖にして、頂点を極めた存在がすべての中心に座している。ゆえに森羅万象は“彼”が描いた祈りの属性に染まっており、だからこそ余波は神秘という名の概念になった。頷ける話だろう。光あれ―――その一言により天地を創造せしめた存在ならば、たとえ事業の後 「に残った滓のごときものであろうと、人には強大な力となる。よって、それを手にした者らは無邪気なままに願ったのだ。父なる者がやったように、光あれ、光あれ、光あれ、光あれと一

Simply put anything spiritual/magical/metaphysical originates from the throne God. Souls included btw.

the reply to you below is from someone else. So you may choose to reply to it or not

Simply put, complete gods/Taikyoku users aren't really qualitatively superior to Shinza's baseline, "physical" reality. We know this as a matter of fact because Hadou god's power are influenced by a component of said baseline reality, souls.

The reality is not physical in the first place as the nature of the canvas is that of a tapestry beyond every possible concept including space and time since the First Heaven

The power of a Hadou god is defined by the strenght of his craving (What you guys seem to call "Taikyoku values"),

tf, the games literally have something called "Taikyoku value" we are not the one calling it that, maybe if you open the games you would know that

and the quality and quantity of souls within their territory, as they use them as fuel for their attacks.

Do i need to remind you that dudes like Khvarenah were states to be beyond quantity and quality as a (future) complete Hadō God? Or that Gladsheimr was stated to be beyond quantity and quality in terms of souls?

Masada brings this up every time Hadou gods fight.

Would be more than happy to see it being mentioned anywhere else besides the Three Colors battle

For example, during the Mitsudomoe/Three-way-battle

Damn, really wonder why this example out of all the fights you could have mentioned

between Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius by the end of Rea's route is explicitly stated that there wasn't a big difference between the three god's individual power, but that Ren's lack of a legion made him the weaker one of the three, as Reinhard had millions of high-quiality souls under his domain, and Mercurius had countless of low-quality mortal souls given that he was the Throne god.

Ren literally overcame this gap when Shirou turned Reinhard's Legion into swiss cheese. Also, you don't seem to understand how souls work: they literally flow from the Throne and are "cells of God" as they are quite literally part of their body as Gods are all-in-one and one-in-all beings with things that come from them, saying that anything from the canvas/creation affecting a God's strength debunks is just dumb as they are literally part of them that, however, cannot really affect their status as deities

And, we also know that mortal souls aren't "1-A at their core" or something like that not only because they are physicaly contained within people's bodies, but also because they can be manipulated by characters whose power ia bound to the baseline reality, like every Die Ewigkeit user/Apostle on the story. So this should be enough to prove that Big bang/Atziluth/Taikyoku users aren't ontologically superior to the baseline reality, thus negating the 1-A rating.

Ah yes, souls are physical now? Anyway, who said that other cells of God being able to affect them is an anti-feat?

Also, the idea that Taikyoku users can't be affected by things that don't have Taikyoku is blatantly false, it's only the norm. During Kajiri Kamui Kagura we saw Hajun being weakened because mortal souls were clinging to his body;

THEY ARE THE THRONE SOULS, THEY ARE ALL THE SOULS THAT WERE BORN SINCE THE DAWN OF THE DIVINE THRONE SYSTEM WHICH INCLUDES THE ONE OF GODS AND SUCH and Hajun's law literally says "leave me alone" and now him taking the throne means this souls will cling to him hence contradicting his law of wanting to be alone, which in turn makes him weaker.

also when Keishiro and Sakuya achieved Moksha and freed themselves from the Tengu-dou they created a crack on Hajun's law, which is also his body.

Dude, if you don't know how Moksha works, don't speak please, at least you won't embarass yourself even more than you're already doing

And if that wasn't enough, in Kokubyaku no Avesta we saw Endgame Varhram and Madou Magsarion, both Taikyokuless beings, being superior to Mitra,

Varhram is stated to be above all Gods both in Avesta and by Masada himself, don't see the problem in this honestly and they were both gods at this point of the story, and taikyoku was not used/stated in Avesta it was simply achieving godhood

the latter even bisected her in a single strike at the start of his fight against her. Mitra even said that "She hadn't felt such an overwhelming difference in power since her fights with Sakra on the age of Zero."

Yeah no shit, aside Hajun he will kill any of the hegemony god 1v1

All of the facts that I pointed above are key for the stories on their respectives eras, not only statements for poetic value and thus I think that they should supersede the flowery descriptions of Taikyoku in Kajiri Kamui Kagura, especially given that both the Mitsudomoe battle and Avesta are more recent that those descriptions in KKK.

Souls are from the throne God and part of the throne God, the entire point of the throne is recycling of souls and also to hold the weight of the current throne god so it doesn't tear the canvas

 

[PrinceofPein]

Yeah, fair enough. With that said, I'll go over the back-and-forth between Legacy and you/Red to give a veredict.

Bump

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Oh for crying out...

Varhram is stated to be above all Gods both in Avesta and by Masada himself, don't see the problem in this honestly and they were both gods at this point of the story, and taikyoku was not used/stated in Avesta it was simply achieving godhood

Firstly Vahram isn't above the gods (besides Mithra). He's the HIGHEST RARE since the way he reached tier 7 is fundementally different from both Mags and teh gods. But the guy fails to point out Vahram is from 0. Which is a threat Mithra needed pantheon for to gain soldiers. I will even say Vahram using 0 to create essentially clones of people he sees and based on his understanding of them is described like a storybook in where he drags the contents and characters from it to his side.

ワルフラーンは星七の最高レア。特級魔将は星五か な。

Vahram is the highest 7 star rare. Special class Daevas are 5 star.

And if that wasn't enough, in Kokubyaku no Avesta we saw Endgame Varhram and Madou Magsarion, both Taikyokuless beings, being superior to Mitra, the latter even bisected her in a single strike at the start of his fight against her. Mitra even said that "She hadn't felt such an overwhelming difference in power since her fights with Sakra on the age of Zero."

Why bring up that comparison when its human mithra in 0. She's just stating in a fight she wasn't gonna win (but won't lose either cuz of Madou's limitations). Vahram's just got to the tier 7 point via different means and so did Mags (though he absorbed other Hadous but I'm repeating myself).

Simply put, complete gods/Taikyoku users aren't really qualitatively superior to Shinza's baseline, "physical" reality. We know this as a matter of fact because Hadou god's power are influenced by a component of said baseline reality, souls.

In what way when anyone reaching it should already transcend everything sans the hadou gods law anyway.

The power of a Hadou god is defined by the strenght of his craving (What you guys seem to call "Taikyoku values"), and the quality and quantity of souls within their territory, as they use them as fuel for their attacks. Masada brings this up every time Hadou gods fight. For example, during the Mitsudomoe/Three-way-battle between Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius by the end of Rea's route is explicitly stated that there wasn't a big difference between the three god's individual power, but that Ren's lack of a legion made him the weaker one of the three, as Reinhard had millions of high-quiality souls under his domain, and Mercurius had countless of low-quality mortal souls given that he was the Throne god.

It's technically a difference breaker but...the thing is people like Yato show what's important is their craving. All the territory of a god just allows their Hadou to spread further. I don't get how this is even a bad thing when souls cravings are important. Otherwise that would imply a lot of things of fiction.

And, we also know that mortal souls aren't "1-A at their core" or something like that not only because they are physicaly contained within people's bodies, but also because they can be manipulated by characters whose power ia bound to the baseline reality, like every Die Ewigkeit user/Apostle on the story. So this should be enough to prove that Big bang/Atziluth/Taikyoku users aren't ontologically superior to the baseline reality, thus negating the 1-A rating.

No idea the point of it other than: Souls are in human bodies. Which is...just a whole lot of nothing. Like there is a thing called improving soul quality which is already touched in Ikabey. So I don't even get the point of this.

Yeah no shit, aside Hajun he will kill any of the hegemony god 1v1

Another correction: Mags CAN win but the circumstances are very tricky. Don't forget Mags had a compatibility issue to perma kill one as Mithra despite being weaker (all infinite versions of her I might add) can't be killed cuz of the matchup.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Snip

What Kev is saying is that beings that haven't reached Taikyoku/Big Bang/Atziluth are on the level of the gods or straight up stronger.

You even said Mags has the possibility of defeating whats basically the strongest of them all, ability to kill him he damned.

That is a huge contradiction to the 1A current standards meaning shinza doesn't qualify

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

What Kev is saying is that beings that haven't reached Taikyoku/Big Bang/Atziluth are on the level of the gods or straight up stronger.

You even said Mags has the possibility of defeating whats basically the strongest of them all, ability to kill him he damned.

That is a huge contradiction to the 1A current standards meaning shinza doesn't qualify

Edit: I think a better issue is Vahram IS a Big Bang tier character. Masada confirms this so Mags should scale logically besides the other factors about his abilities.

 

[PrinceofPein]

What Kev is saying is that beings that haven't reached Taikyoku/Big Bang/Atziluth are on the level of the gods or straight up stronger.

Again Varham and Mags are both atziluth level character. Even before it was explicitly spelled out, Varham was said to view the world as storybook and all events are like he is reading the lines. He existed as a hole.

You even said Mags has the possibility of defeating whats basically the strongest of them all, ability to kill him he damned.

Mags is Atziluth level character at least before he faced Mithra, so it is no issue, honestly you guys need to stop spreading this misinformation.

That is a huge contradiction to the 1A current standards meaning shinza doesn't qualify

Again all you just said are not true like we have all said many times. And this whole thing needs to stop

Another correction: Mags CAN win but the circumstances are very tricky. Don't forget Mags had a compatibility issue to perma kill one as Mithra despite being weaker (all infinite versions of her I might add) can't be killed cuz of the matchup.

I think he was referring to DI pantheon when Hajun and Muzan clashed and it ended with Hajun losing a finger and muzan losing his arm. I already explained to him on discord that mags winning is a 50/50 chance with Hajun

 

[PrinceofPein]

For the love of everything good, Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

Bump

 

[Everything12]

Put me down for agree.

 

[Wankbreaker]

This thread is accepted now, it seems

 

[Reiner04]

This thread is accepted now, it seems

Ant recently said that for higher tiers, like 1-A, the staff vote difference must be 4.

That said, Proposal looks fine.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Well thank you everyone, I will wait some times more in case anyone still wants to comment before the thread is closed.

 

[Antvasima]

@TISSG7Redgrave

Which adjustments would you prefer to make to Pein's suggestions here?

 

[Everything12]

I'm pretty sure that they disagree with a fundamental aspect of this thread that neither side will budge on, so I doubt any adjustments will persuade either side.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I was going to wait a week and today makes it a week.

@TISSG7Redgrave

Which adjustments would you prefer to make to Pein's suggestions here?

What he had issue with is the way the blog was formatted and the information it contains

I'm pretty sure that they disagree with a fundamental aspect of this thread that neither side will budge on, so I doubt any adjustments will persuade either side.

I explained to him that the blog is not the official one and the current blog in the OP is just something meant to explain the cosmology and not an official cosmology blog.

The official blog which will be on the verse page will be posted here within 24hrs and then this thread can be closed.
The blog will contain the suggestions made here also and formatted properly to reflect what was said here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems good to me then, although we should let our staff members here inspect and evaluate your official blog before we close this thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Here is the link to the blog, it has been cleaned up and more information have been added

 

[Antvasima]

Your link did not seem to work.

 

[Reiner04]

Your link did not seem to work.

Shinza Official Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems good to me then, although we should let our staff members here inspect and evaluate your official blog before we close this thread.

Here is the link to the blog, it has been cleaned up and more information have been added

Shinza Official Cosmology Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com

Thank you. What do the rest of you think about it?

@Everything12 @Ultima_Reality @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Firestorm808

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

1-A still makes sense to me, and the blog is easier to read now, so no complaints there.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am done using ctrl + k.
I didn't even check, thanks @Antvasima, @ActuallySpaceMan42 and @teiner04

 

[Re5yh]

I agree with 1-A and undeleting the verse

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Thank you. What do the rest of you think about it?

@Everything12 @Ultima_Reality @Reiner04 @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Firestorm808

I'll refrain from inputting on this thread, if that's alright by you.