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He regrets it in the first moment, however he states (later on) that "it's for the better" which implies that he didn't expect to have to leave it to the Eastern Expedition, therefore resulting in Yato indirectly confirming that he can't drill past that layer.
No because Yato doesnt want to emanate through all creation. If he reaches the throne it will be a world of stagnation. DI even elaborates Ren HATES this and refused to go beyond EFF in Rea's Route due to this very fact. It's basically a "Hell" for him. "It's for the better/best" doesn't imply he couldn't drill past it but he thinks its better he DIDN'T and left it to EE.
Yato was out of juice...? You do remember that Tokoyo blatantly states that once she activates her Taikyoku to make Yato awaken again, she compares it to an act of re-birth? It doesn't make sense for Yato to be out of juice when he awakens due to literally being at full power. Moreover, i think what you're referring to is Yato """holding back""" against Habaki which is a different thing and its not entirely true (Masada even explains it in the K3 VFB: he was just reducing the environmental damage to the minimum and therefore focused more on AP than DC).
I mean he clearly wasn't at 100 for the past 8k years. I meant it more his taiji was way below his peak (considering Ootake and Sukuna's were 50 and those two are the closest to Yato). And he wouldn't hold back because he needs the EE to overcome him. If not then he would have to use Habaki as a meat shield. He may not elaborate further but why imply he can't when he just died BEFORE the last part. That quote doesn't imply he couldn't, he died before he finished the drill and commented its deep as hell for that reason. He never implied he CANNOT. He just regretted leaving his work half-assed to a degree but was confident EE can find a way past the layer (Gudou's don't clash with the Godhead so they don't have the normal properties to just blast through and had to have Mibu and Shiori fight one another).
Which is why he wanted Habaki to prove himself worthy and to defeat him in a fight, which has nothing to do with the whole final layer thing given how at that time he already considered the Eastern Expedition to be worthy of taking down Hajun.
He had to test them at full power. In that same K3 VFB Masada even reiterates if Habaki didn't satisfy his criteria then he will use ANY means which involves making Habaki a meat shield. Yato is a Hadou, he would have to keep digging regardless so he was doing that while fighting Habaki as the godhead's Hadou has to clash with the "challenger". It's like an artist dying of cancer before finishing his painting and leaving it to his assistants to add the final touches.
Q Would a newly reborn Yato have a chance to beat Hajun?
A He has no chance in a direct fight. However, if he choices to use any means necessary there is a chance to kill Hajun. In the battle of Ezo he could have gone to Hajun with everyone, using Habaki as a shield and weapon, standing around to take advantage of the situation. In reality, he was thinking of this as a last resort. He would have done so if he judged that Habaki and the rest were hopeless. As he said it himself "If you guys cannot surpass the domination of the sixth heaven, I will turn everything into hell to defeat Hajun".
We have to remember Ren IC rather not have his law emanate and be the godhead. But since it's Hajun he considered it an option (but a final option)
I didn't use Taikyoku values when it comes to scaling due to both being inconsistent and "having many problems" according to Masada himself. That being said, in his weakened state he should still be above the likes of Mercurius given how Masada says that Ootake can kill Reinhard + he's stated to have transcended Mercurius when Yakou explores the Singularity + he has a statement about holding infinite anger and according to the Shinga Commandment this would result in Yato being infinitely stronger than Mercurius even in his weakened state.
How? Taikyoku rankings are a measure of the God's territory and strength of law. And Ootake being able to kill Reinhard and Merc is likely because Yato himself is stronger at full power. I mean ofc he was stronger by this point, Yato/Ren was 100. Shinga's commandment doesn't have much to do with this and nothing states Yato weakened > Merc. It's likely on the premise that Yato was "reborn" otherwise that would be contradictory on many parts as Yato's law (and by extension his army's laws) cannot work if he was weaker that's literally the basis of the rankings overall.
He doesn't regret leaving it to the Eastern Expedition, that's literally the point: it says its for the better because that would act as the final trial for the EE. Also, do i need to remind you that Soujirou and Shiori, when they opened the final layer, were stated to be having the most powerful clash since the dawn of the Sixth Heaven and also Soujirou himself has a statement about being able to kill all the Tenmas (there's also a statement regarding both of them surpassing the average hegemony gods in terms of power, however i'm not sure what the metric here is so i won't add it).
I said he regrets not finishing off the final layer. I'm saying he never implied he couldn't. It's just better this way instead of him doing it and let the EE do it (It's like saying: "I wished I could have finished destroying a wall in my house before I have to go but I'll leave it to you so it's fine"). And I doubt Mibu would beat a fully powered Tenma legion but he would have likely won when they were all weakened at 50 or less (especially since end game Mibu and Shiori are 60)
Tldr; Taiji values haven't really contradicted each other. We just know its not an end all be all problem. And Yato's layer thing never even implied he couldn't just regretted not finishing it but saw a silver lining that made it a very minor regret seeing he thinks its better he died before finishing it and letting the EE open that layer.
Just to give an example, Numahime has a lower value than both Akuro and Morei, yet by feats she should have their same value given how she was going to kill everyone in the Eastern Expedition if Niko/Teirei didn't attack her earlier, which means that she was going to kill an Habaki who was stated to be stronger than the one we saw at Fuji who was able to repel Ootake's Briah which is stated to be above Akuro & Morei with Taikyoku activated (and iirc Niko/Teirei also has a statement regarding him being stronger compared to his performance at Fuwa-no-Seki).
The cast besides Yakou, Ryuumei and Niko/Teirei don't have Taiji by then no cuz they all got whopped? And Habaki's immortality is already wack on it's own.
No? When Yato is reborn, he deactivates all the other pillars of the Yatsukahagi, which means that said statement refers to Ootake's Taikyoku being on par with Weakened Yato's one.
It's to be reborn. Yato's legion was never at full power during the game and his legion is like Reinhard's in that they are as strong as whatever Yato's strength is (it can be lower but that's all). Their peak is when Yato is at his peak which we also never see since they lost to the other members and then Tokoyo's taiji was used to rebirth him. We have to ignore Masada's explanation and the story's explanation completely to say a weaker Yato > full power Merc.
The fact is that he indirectly did through this: he regrets not being able to drill through the last layer when he literally drilled through the entirety of the Singularity at his peak during the fight, which implies that Yato can't do it. However, by leaving the work to the EE he says that "its better this way" because that would act as a final trial for them.
Can you even prove he said he can't? Like...every time I read it, it just implies Yato's regret is minor because the EE finishing what he started was better than him cutting the final layer. You kept saying he is unable but the text never states his lack of ability. Only commenting the depth of Hajun's throne is really deep. And the fact Masada states Yato COULD challenge Hajun is he used ALL POSSIBLE MEANS implies he can reach the throne if Habaki and co failed. Hajun's throne is just really far due to his strength.
They are just hyping themselves up cuz Mibu thinks he can cut Hajun lolz. Which you know...he CAN'T and didn't in their final confrontation. Hell he struggled with an extreme bootleged Satanael and only won together with Shiori. The singularity makes sense since he is a cutter and the Tenma he knew were not as strong as their likely peaks (since he only fought a weakened Akuro).
@Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku@TISSG7Redgrave This thread is staff-only, and neither of you have demonstrated permission to post here, so I'm going to delete your posts. They can be un-deleted if you present that permission.
Thread mods can only grant permission for one post at a time. I'm 99% certain that Glassman can't just say "sure" and un-delete your last 5 posts, and I'm 100% certain that you'd need to keep asking him before each future post.
Thread mods can only grant permission for one post at a time. I'm 99% certain that Glassman can't just say "sure" and un-delete your last 5 posts, and I'm 100% certain that you'd need to keep asking him before each future post.
well i did ask you and Ant before just didn't get a response. Didn't know the hierarchy on how much I'm allowed on which staff I asked but yeah I already put on yours and Ant's message wall for that reason.
well i did ask you and Ant before just didn't get a response. Didn't know the hierarchy on how much I'm allowed on which staff I asked but yeah I already put on yours and Ant's message wall for that reason.
@Mugen-Kokutosho-Jigoku@TISSG7Redgrave This thread is staff-only, and neither of you have demonstrated permission to post here, so I'm going to delete your posts. They can be un-deleted if you present that permission.
Sorry for the late reply. Anyway, i did ask @GarrixianXD for permission on Discord the day before the deletition of my messages and she granted me it. However, it seems like i didn't know that i need to ask permission every single time i want to make a reply on the thread so my apologies for not following the rules of staff-only threads.
I really don't understand how such a simple CRT derailed so much. Anyway, I read through the Blog (Which definitely will need to be improved on, once this is over), and translated a few of the raws myself, and they line up to what's said on the page, so I don't doubt the translation.
I agree with the Singularity being 1-A, based on the whole being deeper/under the Canvas of which everything is painted stuff, which shows a qualitative difference.
From my understanding laws broke through the Canvas in the first place, and can keep opening holes deeper into the singularity, so I have no issue with Taikyoku being 1-A.
Throne exists at the bottom of the Singularity, and seems to scale to everything that's been brought up thus far, plus a few other fancy things so 1-A is fine there as well.
I really don't understand how such a simple CRT derailed so much. Anyway, I read through the Blog (Which definitely will need to be improved on, once this is over), and translated a few of the raws myself, and they line up to what's said on the page, so I don't doubt the translation.
I agree with the Singularity being 1-A, based on the whole being deeper/under the Canvas of which everything is painted stuff, which shows a qualitative difference.
From my understanding laws broke through the Canvas in the first place, and can keep opening holes deeper into the singularity, so I have no issue with Taikyoku being 1-A.
Throne exists at the bottom of the Singularity, and seems to scale to everything that's been brought up thus far, plus a few other fancy things so 1-A is fine there as well.
Thank you for your evaluation.
The blog is not the official verse blog, just something meant strictly for Content Revision. The real one will be much more structured using this as the skeleton.
Characters or objects residing in higher states of existence surpassing material composition as a whole, and who are therefore completely unreachable and inaccessible to any and all extensions of the aforementioned structures. Their superiority over such realms, as such, is purely "qualitative"; based entirely on the ontological quality and nature of their existence, rather than any quantitative or numerical principle.
A way to explain their superiority over "physical composition" would be to bring attention to the fact that all of the previous tiers can be expressed as the union of constructs of lower tiers. For example, a 4-dimensional spacetime continuum is at most Low 2-C. However, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of such spacetimes is well into High 1-B+. In spite of the extremely large gap in size between the individuals comprising this totality and the totality itself, the latter is simply the sum of all the former, and as such both ultimately reside in the same state of existence, and have continuity of composition within that state.
Likewise, even the Von Neumann Universe (As well as larger structures still) is still simply the union of many elements that, individually, are smaller than itself. And the same applies to any mathematical space whatsoever.
A 1-A character or realm, on the other hand, fundamentally surpasses lower states of existence, with their sheer superiority not being expressible as the sum, union or permutation of anything in these lesser states. They, in other words, transcend lower existences to the point that those vanish into nothingness.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#cite_note-3">[note 3]</a>
This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).
What Is Reality-Fiction Transcendence in Detail?
Reality-Fiction Transcendence is a state where a being is qualitatively superior to another world, as a result of seeing the world as fiction and thus being more 'real' than said world. Due to this, the character will be treated as completely superior to the cosmology it transcends, and all characters limited to it, and will thus be granted a higher tier.
For example, if a character were to view an entire space-time continuum as fiction, they would be superior to such an extent that it would be viewed not as a small portion or constituent of their reality, but as trivialized into nonexistence by comparison, such that their higher world is wholly irreducible to anything pertaining to the lower world. This complete superceding of the lower world's nature lands all such characters at 1-A.
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human. However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.
Indeed, that passage is entirely metaphorical talk to describe a dimensional difference.
(なのに無傷。まったく無傷。薄皮一枚切り裂けない。それは紫織の拳を受け止めたときと同様で、頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目にしたかのようだった。Nano ni múkìzù. Màttákú múkìzù. Úsùkàwá ìchímáì kìrísáké náì. Sore wa shiori no ken o uketometa toki to dōyōde, gàńkyō-sa toiu yori bètsú ísō no butsuri o me ni shita ka no yōdatta.) But was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Didn't even cut a single layer of skin. It was the same when they blocked Shiori's fist and rather than being super stubborn it was almost as if he saw another phase of the laws of physics.
(喩えるなら、絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと、それが現実の人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ。Tatoerunara, e no naka de dore dake mōka o byōsha shiyou to, sore ga genjitsu no ningen o moyaseru wake ga nai no to onaji.) Figuratively speaking, no matter how raging a fire is depicted in a painting/drawing, it can not burn a real human being.
(立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。Tatte iru basho ga somosomo chigau to iu danzetsu-kan.) There's a sense of disconnection of the place where they are standing is different than where they were in the first place.
(そして、絵に現実は害せなくても、現実が絵を破壊することは容易に出来る。) Even while the painting/drawing can not harm reality, reality can easily harm the painting/drawing.
(高次元から低次元への攻撃は、赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい。) An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension, is easier to pass than twisting a baby's hand.
Translation courtesy of apotheosis. The fourth passage speaking of a painting not being able to harm reality, but reality being able to destroy the painting, apotheosis further clarifies that it does correlate to the metaphorical talk in the second passage.
I would also like to bring up other anti-feats that break the R > F suggestion and the 1-A rating proposals.
One example is Ren/Yato's state as a god.
俺は本来、〈座〉《かみ》の位階に立てる器じゃない。純血種であるこいつやマリィとは異なる混血だから、父の死もろとも神性を失うことで人に戻れる。
I'm not originally worthy of taking the rank of god (Throne). Unlike him and Marie, who are purebloods, I'm a half-blood, so I can only return to being human after losing my divinity along with my father's death.
Can Ren reach Emanation without Marie's help? Are there any other characters that could potentially lead to Emanation?
Since he suffers from the super 14-year-old disease caused by Mercury poisoning, Ren is able to do it alone, but it's assumed that Merc is "making sure that happens". This is the same with Reinhard. Therefore, Marie and Merc are the only two people who are genuinely in the Atziluth (Emanation/流出) Degree in the story.
The first scan exists in the Battle of Three Colors in Dies Irae, which was released after Kajiri Kamui Kagura Akebono no Hikari, the definitive version of that game. The second scan is a translation courtesy of Qliphoth Bacikal.
This speaks of how Ren wasn't someone born with the qualifications to become a Hadou God and needs the blood of his father, Mercurius, an actual god Hadou God, to become one. If Mercurius dies, so does Ren along with his godhood. If that's the case, how does Ren continue to exist as Yato in Kajiri Kamui Kagura when Mercurius is dead?
Does Yato-sama still contain the part of Lotus inside of him?
They do. Or rather, it has no longer sublimated into a separate life that continues to exist even after its parent, Mercury, is destroyed. Simply put, he has surpassed his father because his love for the Twilight was stronger than that of Mercury. Think of Yato as a new character that Ren Fuji and Lotus Reichhart fused in a higher dimension.
Translation courtesy of Qliphoth Bacikal. This comes from Kajiri Kamui Kagura VFB QnA Interview, released after Akebono no Hikari but before Battle of Three Colors.
So Yato exists as a god because he fuses with his previous life and because of his love for Marie. I honestly don't know how a single human soul fusing with his previous life as another human can become a god plus love for Marie would propel him from non 1-A to 1-A. Unless love can be proven as a metaphysical 1-A power source. There's also the fact that Yato is described as a higher dimensional existence, which would negate 1-A due to still being constrained by dimensions.
The other example I want to talk about is Magsarion and his Madou.
Supporters say that Meifu Madou is the end result of Madou, like how Hadou God/Gudou God is the end result of Hadou and Gudou. Except we are not told Meifu Madou is equivalent to the latter and Magsarion is explicitly already on the path of Meifu Madou for the majority of the second half of Avesta before he goes on to fight the god tiers of the story.
This was the remains of the demonic planet once known as the Workshop of Destruction.
"Khaverenah's 'beauty' was incomplete, but it should have been enough to help you understand what the world is. Including the incident with Varhram, you would have been a different person without that child."
"Suppose so."
Magsarion briefly agreed, and Nadare responded with a broad smile. Despite being already bloody and beyond gruesome, there was a hint of jealously floating about that was seemed rather refreshing.
"It's for that reason that I wanted to forge a 'beautiful sword' for you. That way, we can preserve even a little of the Immutability of the ideals Khaverenah's sought."
An emanation of Hegemony will repaint the cosmos/universe. A new world that is brought about via the succession of Gods. Through fighting with the Maiden of the Halo of Light, Magsarion had come to understand how it worked. The Avesta that governs the thoughts of both Ashavan and Dragvant is not just mere instinct, but something he realized as an existence that reigns at the top at the Divine Throne and dyes everything in its color.
It was like some sort of paradigm shift. The realization that he could kill living things had pushed Magsarion to a new realm.
However, Meifu Madou was not yet complete. At least to this point, he had yet to begin to glimpse at the mystery of Varhram, the one he wanted to uncover the most out of.
Supporters say this is when Magsarion ascended and become 1-A. However, he already had this realization during his fight with Khaverenah, which was before he fought beings like Kaikhosru and Nadare. Kaikhosru can dismember one of Magsarion's hand and keep it around him. Nadare can affect him like this and even break his sword. So unless someone like Nadare herself is 1-A also, this disproves the above scan saying Magsarion became 1-A due to this specific realization.
The completion of Meifu Madou doesn't happen unless he understands Varhram, which happens in his second to last fight in the story. So when exactly does Magsarion become 1-A and what higher source of power does he rely on? Because Madou doesn't seem to have a definitive end goal like Hadou God and Gudou God, and Meifu Madou is ill-defined in how it's equivalent to the other two. As a matter of fact, Magsarion uses his Meifu Madou to become a Hadou God and in his own words it is "evolution" for him to be doing this. It just seems as if he relies on his own power which goes against the standards of 1-A.
And I'm not done with Magsarion. There's how he can travel from the normal world, through the singularity, and reach the Throne.
Yet no matter what people perceived him as, the fact he was someone who brings about death was undeniable. From that instant he started, he would kill, slaughter, and murder each and every person by assessing and dissecting them until eventually, the end result will be that all life have vanished. Now that he was physically "nothing", there was no one else whom he could shift his focus on the other side.
At least, no one that was present right now.
The world that had become a wasteland after the slaughter was one where only he stood. That Monster--Magsaion, looked onwards without looking back on his tracks, staring from the death earth to the starless sky.
Come on out. You're next. He barked silently to the one who had yet to show themselves. That man's unrestless spirit told him it was not yet over.
If anything, the real one had yet to appear. The source of everything, the Throne of God lies in the depths. And it went without saying that it is a realm where supernatural overlaps with supernatural. Thus, only those who meet the qualifications can reach it let alone pinpoint its exact coordinates.
And by qualifications, it means having the aptitude for Hegemony as well as a level/rank not inferior to that of the current God. In other words, only when both dispotision and strength are present will the gates open up. However, Magsarion did not satisfy the former condition. Though he had no issues with strength/power, he lacked the mentality to create and rule a new world.
His act of annihilation was also meant to fill in that gap. if "everyone" were killed in the universe, it would cause everything to shrink and all phenomena would be concentrated onto a singular point. To put in a metaphor, it would be like hunting where you corner your prey and block off its escape routes. The logic was simple, and it was something anyone could have come up with. But what made it astonishing was the naivety with how he was seeing it through to the end. No matter what the future holds, it's unlikely that anyone would have been able to do the same as Magsarion did.
This was undoubtedly and unpredently Meifu Madou. Perhaps Kami/God herself wanted to witness it all and thus didn't bother to intervene.
I don't know about you, but this method of reaching the Throne is wonky to me. Magsarion kills every living being in the universe and this seemingly opens a direct path to the Throne where he just skips through the singularity. Unless the normal universe is 1-A, anything that happens in it shouldn't affect a 1-A space.
The last example I want to talk about is Yakou from Kajiri Kamui Kagura.
With just a slight murmur, Yakou's Taikyoku completely vanished.
From sensory to mere cell. Along with the intense pain, the ultimate training that had been achieved was removed from the bones and flesh.
"Gaaah, aaahhh... ah, guuuh, ha!"
"Ha-jun..."
"It stinks. Ah, I've become so tainted."
Gazing at the Taikyoku he had recovered, Hajun muttered emotionlessly.
"You're nothing but trash. Utterly small and foul."
"Hahahaha. How filthy, how disgusting - get out of here. There's no room for trash to live in my Sky (Taikyoku)."
"So who are you? I don't know, need or care about the dregs known as Madara Yakou or Yamaenraten."
"Ahh, what's with you? You were never here to begin with..."
"Fukukukuahahaha, go and be miserably crushed!"
"Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"
The waves of the childish Hegemony that were showered upon him were powerful enough to chip away at the entire continent, knocking Yakou's body flying.
The waves of spatial vibrations that occurred at the singularity caused his entire body to be pulverized as he went back through the dimensional hole he had followed, heading towards the earth above, where it collapsed along with the shattered heavens.
The five waves that impressed him. In the blink of an eye, he pierced the ranks and swept back to the point where he had begun his infiltration.
He was banished to normal space and finally freed from the divine power of Hajun. But what consolation was that?
To summarize, When Yakou reaches the Throne as a god, he gets all of his Taikyoku taken from him by Hajun. This lowers him from a god back to a mortal because that Taikyoku originally belongs to Hajun. Not only does Yakou continue to exist in the Throne as a mortal, Hajun blasts him with his Hadou, yes, literally his Hadou(覇道), and Yakou gets sent flying from the Throne, through the entire singularity where he sees remnants of the previous Hadou Gods, but not without being hit by spatial fluctuations from the singularity too, and back to the normal world. But it doesn't end there, Yakou survived all that punishment. He's dying, but he's still breathing, and his soul is still there. He survived long enough to have a conversation with Ryuusui before he finally dies from the injuries. How does a non 1-A being survive from all that by two supposed 1-A existences without instantly dying? Especially from Hajun, the strongest Hadou God in the entire series, and the singularity this thread is proposing to be 1-A.
天元突破を果たしたものが、人の領域に易々住まうはずがない。あの夜刀よりも巨大な質量を有しているというのなら、この世界では耐えられぬ。空間もろともただ在るだけで〈破けてしまう〉。 薄い和紙で山を支えるようなものだ。地には住めぬ、脆すぎる。ゆえに当然、その身が在るのは──
It's impossible for something that broke through the heavens (Tengen Toppa) to easily inhabit the realm of men. If it has more mass than Yato, it would be unbearable in this world. Their mere existence within that space {will tear it apart}. It's like supporting an entire mountain with thin pieces of paper. It can't live on earth, it's too fragile.
They cannot easily exist in the world, doesn't mean it's impossible. Hadou God Ren at the end of Marie route in Dies Irae exists in the normal world because he got ejected from the singularity and now wanders the world wondering when Marie can come down from the Throne using a sensory to meet her again. He even visits France, Marie's gravesite at the epilogue of Marie Route. He stays in the normal world for so long, he visits his old friend Kasumi from high school who had become an old woman at the special epilogue of Marie Route.
And before someone comes to accuse me of not having read the series and calls me ignorant yet again, I have a Youtube channel I use to upload my playthrough of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And those videos are THREE years old. So before making more accusations of me not having actually touched the series so you can discredit my opinion, cool yourself.
Since Redgrave is an administrator in one of our partner wikis and seems to know what he's talking about here, I undeleted his posts and think that he can continue to post here.
So Yato exists as a god because he fuses with his previous life and because of his love for Marie. I honestly don't know how a single human soul fusing with his previous life as another human can become a god plus love for Marie would propel him from non 1-A to 1-A. Unless love can be proven as a metaphysical 1-A power source. There's also the fact that Yato is described as a higher dimensional existence, which would negate 1-A due to still being constrained by dimensions.
The thing is Shinza is based on wishes and ego alone. In fact Yato is just a fusion of both selves to sustain himself. Considering Yato despite deprived of his legion is the sole strongest Hadou sans Hajun via craving alone kinda shows quantity didn't matter.
This speaks of how Ren wasn't someone born with the qualifications to become a Hadou God and needs the blood of his father, Mercurius, an actual god Hadou God, to become one. If Mercurius dies, so does Ren along with his godhood. If that's the case, how does Ren continue to exist as Yato in Kajiri Kamui Kagura when Mercurius is dead?
The issue is REN is the one that dies, not Lotus. After all Lotus is more of the basis that Merc used to tweak Ren into a Hadou. He was made to be one if needed but since he still had a "human aspect" thx to how he exists then Ren himself would die not Lotus.
The other example I want to talk about is Magsarion and his Madou.
Supporters say that Meifu Madou is the end result of Madou, like how Hadou God/Gudou God is the end result of Hadou and Gudou. Except we are not told Meifu Madou is equivalent to the latter and Magsarion is explicitly already on the path of Meifu Madou for the majority of the second half of Avesta before he goes on to fight the god tiers of the story.
Idk why its considered that but I think its more accurate to say it has hadou and gudou traits but is neither so really it doesn't matter since Madou is Mags exclusive.
Supporters say this is when Magsarion ascended and become 1-A. However, he already had this realization during his fight with Khaverenah, which was before he fought beings like Kaikhosru and Nadare. Kaikhosru can dismember one of Magsarion's hand and keep it around him. Nadare can affect him like this and even break his sword. So unless someone like Nadare herself is 1-A also, this disproves the above scan saying Magsarion became 1-A due to this specific realization.
The completion of Meifu Madou doesn't happen unless he understands Varhram, which happens in his second to last fight in the story. So when exactly does Magsarion become 1-A and what higher source of power does he rely on? Because Madou doesn't seem to have a definitive end goal like Hadou God and Gudou God, and Meifu Madou is ill-defined in how it's equivalent to the other two. As a matter of fact, Magsarion uses his Meifu Madou to become a Hadou God and in his own words it is "evolution" for him to be doing this. It just seems as if he relies on his own power which goes against the standards of 1-A.
I do agree but the thing is, Mags only started to really understand his new style by that point. We know after all his fights he "leveled up" to say the least after killing Nadare. And Nadare couldn't come back as an administor of Evil since Mags killed her permanently. I'm Mags absorbed the Hadou traits and prayers of Sirius, Khaverenah and Kaikhosru is why he can be a Hadou without breaking his commandments as he would need to stay on his path to ensure he wasn't triggering Tensui and needed a personality armor to be one. Meifu Madou is in a way a different path as it can contend against God (mithra) but is a bad matchup not in strength but attribute.
To summarize, When Yakou reaches the Throne as a god, he gets all of his Taikyoku taken from him by Hajun. This lowers him from a god back to a mortal because that Taikyoku originally belongs to Hajun. Not only does Yakou continue to exist in the Throne as a mortal, Hajun blasts him with his Hadou, yes, literally his Hadou(覇道), and Yakou gets sent flying from the Throne, through the entire singularity where he sees remnants of the previous Hadou Gods, but not without being hit by spatial fluctuations from the singularity too, and back to the normal world. But it doesn't end there, Yakou survived all that punishment. He's dying, but he's still breathing, and his soul is still there. He survived long enough to have a conversation with Ryuusui before he finally dies from the injuries. How does a non 1-A being survive from all that by two supposed 1-A existences without instantly dying? Especially from Hajun, the strongest Hadou God in the entire series, and the singularity this thread is proposing to be 1-A.
They cannot easily exist in the world, doesn't mean it's impossible. Hadou God Ren at the end of Marie route in Dies Irae exists in the normal world because he got ejected from the singularity and now wanders the world wondering when Marie can come down from the Throne using a sensory to meet her again. He even visits France, Marie's gravesite at the epilogue of Marie Route. He stays in the normal world for so long, he visits his old friend Kasumi from high school who had become an old woman at the special epilogue of Marie Route.
Marie is a special case as firstly Ren and Merc were called walking singularities akin to what Gudous tend to be defined as. But we also know Marie's law ALLOWS other Hadous to exist so it won't really be too problematic as she can handle it (though there is a limit). And before someone asks about Hajun and Yato, Shinshuu is a singularity so Yato and co kept existing there and only there anyway.
I don't know about you, but this method of reaching the Throne is wonky to me. Magsarion kills every living being in the universe and this seemingly opens a direct path to the Throne where he just skips through the singularity. Unless the normal universe is 1-A, anything that happens in it shouldn't affect a 1-A space.
The idea is to shrink the universe and converging it until the Godhead focuses only on him. It's "opening" via forcing Mithra to only look at him. Satanael even tried this via ragnarok (but failed as Muzan did not care in the slightest). It's unorthodox and never really is done again as such (unless 3rd and 5th heaven talks on other ways).
As I have said before, you do this thing where you make a post and include so many random things hoping one of them will stick, and I have complained about that in the first page. Most of your points have been responded to as I have been made aware, and also the whole Madou thing we have gone over previously and I have addressed, I will make a short reply of the one that hasn't been
Indeed, that passage is entirely metaphorical talk to describe a dimensional difference.
Translation courtesy of apotheosis. The fourth passage speaking of a painting not being able to harm reality, but reality being able to destroy the painting, apotheosis further clarifies that it does correlate to the metaphorical talk in the second passage.
Metaphorical description of how R>F works, is still valid, even though I do not agree it is metaphorical, but it is not my place to argue semantics.
Leave that passage alone
There are more than 5 other scans explaining how the Gods view the world as a mandala e.t.c. So this whole point of R>F no true is moot, since there are like tons of statements and feats that says otherwise.
They cannot easily exist in the world, doesn't mean it's impossible. Hadou God Ren at the end of Marie route in Dies Irae exists in the normal world because he got ejected from the singularity and now wanders the world wondering when Marie can come down from the Throne using a sensory to meet her again. He even visits France, Marie's gravesite at the epilogue of Marie Route. He stays in the normal world for so long, he visits his old friend Kasumi from high school who had become an old woman at the special epilogue of Marie Route.
You read a text that says this as example "It's like supporting an entire mountain with thin pieces of paper." and proceed to say it is possible. No they cannot, it has been repeatedly said and shown, and yes they have only ever existed as sensories in the real world and that is not an issue
And before someone comes to accuse me of not having read the series and calls me ignorant yet again, I have a Youtube channel I use to upload my playthrough of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. And those videos are THREE years old. So before making more accusations of me not having actually touched the series so you can discredit my opinion, cool yourself.
Just because you have a YT channel where you posted videos of a part of the game does not equal that you have actually read the series, as shown based on your claims in Avesta.
I could have sworn that I answered you while answering legacy, sorry about that. I thought you said they qualify for R>F and was simply asking for clarification.
The reply will be on my word, I guess I never pasted it. I will send it when I am home in a few hours
Antvasima did agree in the first page with redgrave
What you just quoted is a demonstrable example of such interaction. Soujiro tried attacking Akuro a Pseudo God (Someone who a god boosted by lending him one or more of his taikyoku) it was described as a fire in a painting trying to harm someone in real life.
Based on the remainder of your post, you are simply asking if the Gods view the world as fiction, and the answer is yes.
There are multiple examples of how the Gods view the world
The God views the world as a mandala, quote from avesta
Black and White, Blue and Red, Light and Darkness, Obverse and Reverse. Every single conceiveable, Dualistic, conflicting, rivalring phenomena, concepts, that exist within this world, all without exception existed here. Flowing, in continous change, a Great Mandala in the shape of a designed pattern, changing in a kaleidoscope like form while continuing to revolve. Infinite colours overflowed, and nevertheless, there was not a single independent thing here. They all have an enemy (furigana: couple), that always certain, under the auspices of the absolute Law. Quite like a microcosm of their universe. An embodiment of the world of Dualism, woven in textile of trascendent scope.
More on that, here is a quote from K3 saying the same thing
「私にとって、万象はこの曼荼羅だ。景色は遠い。美しいが掛け離れている」 To me— all creation is this very mandala. The scenery is distant— beautiful, yet utterly detached.
The God views the world as a canvas, There are many of this instance but the point has been made
The description used to describe the world is a picture and painting
In conclusion the world is viewed as fiction(Mandala, canvas, picture, painting, paper e.t.c.) by the Gods, hence the R>F relationship is valid, which is the reason for the 1-A
So far just the OP needs evaluation. @ActuallySpaceMan42 has accepted the thread @Firestorm808 asked for clarification which I have provided.
And you agreed with @TISSG7Redgrave who also agreed with the thread. @DontTalkDT asked a question but has not been back since.
Technically I only really pointed out the issues the blog has. Granted I think the rating is fine but the issue is people can point out the messy parts and the uncredited sources the blog has which will make people dubious for a lot of reasons.
Technically I only really pointed out the issues the blog has. Granted I think the rating is fine but the issue is people can point out the messy parts and the uncredited sources the blog has which will make people dubious for a lot of reasons.
So far just the OP needs evaluation. @ActuallySpaceMan42 has accepted the thread @Firestorm808 asked for clarification which I have provided.
And you agreed with @TISSG7Redgrave who also agreed with the thread. @DontTalkDT asked a question but has not been back since.
I'd like for you to confirm your position on whether you actually agreed to the thread's proposals, because I've only seen you say Redgrave made some good points, which do not fit in the context of Redgrave actually taking a stance of agreeing to the rating in the earlier pages. The most Redgrave did was point out problems in the sandbox and his refutes to my earlier arguments as he admitted. Also, can we remove firestorm from the agreeing list on the OP? That'd be considered vote manipulation and it's been there for several days now.
The thing is Shinza is based on wishes and ego alone. In fact Yato is just a fusion of both selves to sustain himself. Considering Yato despite deprived of his legion is the sole strongest Hadou sans Hajun via craving alone kinda shows quantity didn't matter.
The issue is REN is the one that dies, not Lotus. After all Lotus is more of the basis that Merc used to tweak Ren into a Hadou. He was made to be one if needed but since he still had a "human aspect" thx to how he exists then Ren himself would die not Lotus.
That isn't my issue, my issue is that neither Ren nor Lotus has the qualifications from birth to become a Hadou God. He does not have the right to go from a lower tier to a higher tier through the inaccessible difference described for the 1-A rating. For him to go from a mortal to a god without any assistance from a higher source of power means it's an antifeat for divine power. Because it shows it is possible to go from a mortal to a god with the power of love. And love is not proven to be a metaphysical 1-A power source.
Therefore, gods and the like can't be 1-A due to the standards of this wiki. And Ren has the second strongest craving in the series as a result of resisting Hajun's law for 8000 years, his craving was not that strong before that, so that's a moot point. Once Mercurius dies, Ren just stays as a genuine Hadou God against Hajun during the flashback scene of Hajun vs the Guardians of Twilight. How does he do it? It's not via having the second strongest craving in the series, it's through the power of love.
Idk why its considered that but I think its more accurate to say it has hadou and gudou traits but is neither so really it doesn't matter since Madou is Mags exclusive.
I do agree but the thing is, Mags only started to really understand his new style by that point. We know after all his fights he "leveled up" to say the least after killing Nadare. And Nadare couldn't come back as an administor of Evil since Mags killed her permanently. I'm Mags absorbed the Hadou traits and prayers of Sirius, Khaverenah and Kaikhosru is why he can be a Hadou without breaking his commandments as he would need to stay on his path to ensure he wasn't triggering Tensui and needed a personality armor to be one. Meifu Madou is in a way a different path as it can contend against God (mithra) but is a bad matchup not in strength but attribute.
Mags' Madou/Meifu Madou is as strong and can fight on the level of the gods, that is undeniable. Which is a bad look for the gods more than anything. Mags gets stronger via his own power, his Madou, and he shows he reached the strength to match a god since killing Nadare since she can't come back and admits that she won't lose unless a god-like being kills her. But there's a problem because the only thing to describe Mags' level up after killing her is that he becomes an immutable conceptual void. No divine powers, no nothing. If he had some other element equal to divine power(Big Bang and others), it'd help to have it mentioned.
We know that the cosmology limited to the first generation of the throne, only Hadou Gods were allowed to come to existence because the system worked that way and allowed for the birth of Hadou God candidates like Sirius. But Mags breaks the rules because of his exclusive Madou. He gets to fight God tiers through becoming stronger via his own power with every victory. You need an external help from a 1-A power source or being to elevate you to that level or you had it since birth. Both of which doesn't fit the method of Madou. Gods and divine power in general and Mags in association wouldn't fit with being 1-A due to this. Because it proves with enough power accumulated from a lower realm, you can reach the gods. Having an exclusion to the rules was a terrible idea for the verse.
Muzan, he doesn't matter to the argument. I'm only focusing on Mags and his Madou. That's my fault for mentioning it in the first place, my apologies.
Not sure why you're sweeping it under the rug when Yakou did survive that. Just because he died later doesn't excuse that he endured all that, long enough for Ryuusui to come running after his fallen body and talk to him for some time. Oh well, agree to disagree, since I don't think there's much more to be said about it, so let the staff decide which is more accurate.
The idea is to shrink the universe and converging it until the Godhead focuses only on him. It's "opening" via forcing Mithra to only look at him. Satanael even tried this via ragnarok (but failed as Muzan did not care in the slightest). It's unorthodox and never really is done again as such (unless 3rd and 5th heaven talks on other ways).
That is interesting. Can I see scans of that? Limited to Avesta, the text does not indicate any involvement from Shinga bringing him to the Throne. It only describes Mags' efforts to reach the Throne alone and that it just works. If this method is described similar to what Mags' was doing, then I can concede this point, but only if you post scans of it in this thread.
There is one last anti-feat I want to talk about that would debunk the R > F metaphor from being genuine.
The spell he spun was just one word. Only he had reached this level, and the gate to a world beyond what anyone could imagine would now open.
This was the cosmic Throne at the center of an infinite swastika. This was the level where Yakou existed, and it was none other than his perspective.
In that sense, the expression "opening the gate" was inaccurate. Yakou was always here and could not leave. It wasn't that he had just entered the room, it was just that everything looked this way to his eyes.
In other words, what he had manipulated with the spell earlier was rather Ryusui's perspective. He had picked up her existence and aligned it with his own perspective.
The ants who see a person's vision will likely become confused, and Ryusui, who sees Yakou's vision, falls into a similar phenomenon.
Each and every twinkling galaxy and celestial body is an incredibly large part of the universe. These are transformed into pointillism, creating a great mandala that depicts the world.
It is a world that can be called heaven, overlooking the present world.
This is Yakou from the beginning of Kajiri Kamui Kagura. He is always on the level of Taikyoku and cannot exit from it. From his profile in the game, we know that his Taikyoku value is 2. This is to reinforce that he undeniably has Taikyoku.
"Even if I'm within Taikyoku, have the heavenly eye, and can see everything, I can't understand your vision. Therefore, I can't respond to your adoration."
"To me, everything is this mandala. The scenery is far away. It's beautiful, but it's far away."
"The man named Madara Yakou can't move a single step from here, you know?"
...
A hole in the human world. He is nothing more than a singularity, gazing alone into space, without interacting with anyone in this world.
More of the same, Yakou cannot exit out of Taikyoku and in his view everything looks like a mandala. He is also a singularity.
Metal overcomes wood - that's the truth, but the fundamentals are different. Morei's lightning, which can even split mountains in two, is woven with the laws of another world, and is a different concept from the lightning humans know.
Therefore, to overcome it, it is necessary to change the laws of the world, and it is not something that even an average magician can prevent, even with the efforts of many people.
Yakou has endured such a fierce attack a total of eleven times up to this point. In fact, it was only thanks to him that Habaki and the others were able to avoid annihilation in the first attack.
Therefore, all of Morei's attacks have been nullified, and in that sense, Yakou seems to have the upper hand... or so it seems.
The fact that this arrogant onmyoji would rate himself as ten shows the abnormality of his opponent. Because until now, there had been no one who was close to his level.
If we were to assign a numerical value to Yakou, such as ten, the others would become so small that they cannot be expressed, and the comparison itself would be impossible. But that is not the case now.
If we were to assess Morei up to this point, she would be around twelve, thirteen, or fifteen, but as said before, she is not like that.
This is Yakou fighting Tenma Morei at Fuwanoseki. Before Morei activates her Taikyoku, she was sending lightning bolts that can destroy Yakou's attacks and defenses. And Yakou admits that Morei has higher power than he does, comparing himself as a 10 to Morei's 11 to 15 in her current state. This means that even when Morei's Taikyoku is inactive, her attacks are still on the level of Taikyoku, even to contend with someone who has a Taikyoku value of 2.
I took that moment to decide the outcome, kicking the rotten mud away and running.
Shiori I wasn't worried. Soujiro would be fine too. If there was a problem it was Keishiro, but I left that to luck in every sense of the word.
This suicide attack would determine life or death for all of us. In that case, the conditions for the curse to occur were met, as we were all in this together.
So all that was left was to guide the direction in which it would be.
In other words, if dropping it on me would result in everyone's survival--
"--Come on!"
Before Akuro could look my way, the three distortions pierced me.
"--------!"
The shock was so excessive that all the sounds and sensations around me vanished. In a world where even time seemed to have stopped, it was unclear whether my body even existed.
"......Ah...!"
I no longer knew what was what, or who was who.
But still, one thing is certain... a thunderbolt of fire struck from above.
"Are you serious, Keishiro, you asshole..."
Another lightning bolt, you idiot. But well done, this is definitely Morei’s technique.
There's a character called Keishirou and he has the distortion of manipulating misfortune and controlling it to attack his enemies. He doesn't have Taikyoku, not to this point in the story. Here he manipulates Morei's lightning bolt and hits his comrade, Habaki, with it. It doesn't stop there, Habaki, who also doesn't have Taikyoku yet, tanked the lightning bolt and absorbed its power to add to his own attack. So we have two mortal characters who don't have any divine powers manipulate a Taikyoku level attack and even absorb it. And for those who do know Shinza, this was before Tumor Mandala kicks in. That only occurs after Rindou dies at Fuwanoseki.
If we were to use the metaphor used in the series, this would be like a painting controlling a painter's hand to move their paintbrush in the way they want, which does not work. This is bad for Yakou as well since he is associated in this context, who has the descriptions of having a perspective of seeing things as a mandala and being a singularity. This shows the mandala comparisons and metaphors are just that, metaphors and not genuine R > F differences.
I can't say anything about the rarity of Pantheon yet as it's all about balance, but if I were to simply rank them by strength (強さ), I'd rank them at the following seven ranks in my image.
We have the official power ranking of the series. And this is comparing to how strong they are in general. If it were limited to physical strength, there would be better and more specific terms to use than just strength (強さ). Why does this matter? Well, Yakou is part of the Eastern Expedition Main Forces, and he is ranked 4th, lower than some characters that don't have Taikyoku. He with a Taikyoku value of 2. If he was special and stronger than the Eastern Expedition Main Forces at rank 4, Masada would've specified him as separate from the others like how he uses other named characters like Ryuusui and Ryumei, who are characters from Kajiri Kamui Kagura with the former being a part of the Eastern Expedition in the story.
Then what if this was ranking physical strength and not strength, including Taikyoku, in general? There'd be inconsistencies like Habaki of EE in rank 4 being lower than Ryumei in rank 5, because the former has a physical strength of 8 while the latter has 7 as mortals.
Anyhow, I disagree with the verse being 1-A due to these reasons.
I suggest the God tiers, the Throne, Singularity, and the like to be low 1-C as the Throne is described as a hyperdimensional space and Yato being a higher dimensional existence. However, I am ashamed to admit that I am not the most knowledgeable of Paradise Lost, another entry in the series that has no official translation. Since Redgraves mentioned the higher dimensions in PL, the verse could end up being normal 1-C. As I recall, there are 10 dimensions that reflect the tree of Sefirot, and the Throne exists on Keter at the top. So long as the nature of those dimensions are described as spatial and temporal dimensions, I don't mind a 1-C rating.
For now, I'm in favor of low 1-C. The rest of the supporters can argue for 1-C due to the higher dimensions in PL.
Ant, I have nothing but love for you majorly due to the fact that you are pure and straightforward, but please do try and read the threads before agreeing. As if you read the first and second page, @Legacy30 has previously brought up points that has been debunks and which he concedes, only to bring up irrelevant things, which he and TSSredgrave have been arguing. And lastly his last post which contains untrue things
I will not bother replying to your post to redgrave as they are largely irrelevant to this thread.
That aside, I am tempted to report you cause I will like to think of this as dishonesty and removing things on purpose, or you simply have not actually read the series or you simply did not comprehend or forgot what you read. Either way your post is filled with dishonesties that is quite infuriating.
This was the same dishonesty that caused this verse to be deleted at first, purposely twisting narratives to fit your own views and removing contexts.
I plan to make a reply to you later on when I am free and I can get the necessary scans needed to show the lies you have been pandering, spoiler alert, A Yakoou without his third eye has no taikyoku and is simply an abandoned sensory which explains his strength, something I am sure you know also but it does not fit the agenda here.
Here is your second point I need no scan to prove it is a lie though
We have the official power ranking of the series. And this is comparing to how strong they are in general. If it were limited to physical strength, there would be better and more specific terms to use than just strength (強さ). Why does this matter? Well, Yakou is part of the Eastern Expedition Main Forces, and he is ranked 4th, lower than some characters that don't have Taikyoku. He with a Taikyoku value of 2. If he was special and stronger than the Eastern Expedition Main Forces at rank 4, Masada would've specified him as separate from the others like how he uses other named characters like Ryuusui and Ryumei, who are characters from Kajiri Kamui Kagura with the former being a part of the Eastern Expedition in the story.
Then what if this was ranking physical strength and not strength, including Taikyoku, in general? There'd be inconsistencies like Habaki of EE in rank 4 being lower than Ryumei in rank 5, because the former has a physical strength of 8 while the latter has 7 as mortals.
THIS RANKING WAS TALKING STRICTLY ON STRENGTH IN RESPONSE TO SOMEONE ASKING HIM ON TWITTER TO RATE THE STRENGTH OF THE CHARACTERS, AND AS YOU CAN SEE, HE HAD HADOU/GODOU GODS AS THE HIGHEST, YES, HE HAD THE ONES WITH TAIKYOKU AS THE HIGHEST. (Had caplocks on, decided not to turn it off)
This list is strictly talking about attack potency and not physical strength; it was a leading question, which is why we do not use it, but regardless, it is accurate. The list is for the EE before Godhood which would mean all EE before the ones attained taikyoku did, Yakou included and I am sure you know that already but you want to be dishonest on purpose. Yakou with taikyoku was already counted as number 7(Gudou God).
I am of the opinion that this with the things you pulled in the first and second page is grounds enough to report you for purposely distorting information to pass wrong things.
Now, I will have you retract your purposely dishonest statements else whether it is report worthy or not, I will.
Pein, you have been consistently and adamantly accusing me of being ignorant of the verse in general. Chill out. Btw, I asked Ant on his wall if I can comment, and I am allowed a few posts here.
That aside, I am tempted to report you cause I will like to think of this as dishonesty and removing things on purpose, or you simply have not actually read the series or you simply did not comprehend or forgot what you read. Either way your post is filled with dishonesties that is quite infuriating.
This was the same dishonesty that caused this verse to be deleted at first, purposely twisting narratives to fit your own views and removing contexts.
I plan to make a reply to you later on when I am free and I can get the necessary scans needed to show the lies you have been pandering, spoiler alert, A Yakoou without his third eye has no taikyoku and is simply an abandoned sensory which explains his strength, something I am sure you know also but it does not fit the agenda here.
I haven't conceded much in the first and second pages, why are you putting words in my mouth? Sure, there are some stuffs I conceded to getting wrong like Eleonore not being in Aztiluth level, but that's mainly the fault of the translation being wrong and me not fact-checking it beforehand because I still thought to trust the official translation at the time.
None of what I said is irrelevant when they all matter to disprove the R > F suggestion of the verse and only that. That's the only thing I've been arguing about.
What contexts do you believe I removed?
And Yakou before he gets his third eye does have Taikyoku. He is not an abandoned sensory by any means, that only occurs after Hajun takes back his Taikyoku when Yakou dives into the singularity. But before that, he is a genuine sensory.
Hell, the entire description of Yakou activating his Taikyoku and inviting Ryuusui to his special perspective happens before the EE departs to Edo. I think you'd know this if you read Kajiri Kamui Kagura.
Here is Masada confirming Yakou before getting his third eye having Taikyoku:
Q: The Yatsukahagi become stronger due to Yatou's Legion Reincarnation, yet the Umibozu (The Priest and the children) were easily taken down compared to the others. Why is that?
A: First things first, as anyone who has read Dies knows, they weren't that close to Yatou to begin with. Second, Awaumi was at the very ends of Yatou's domain. To put it short and direct, the Umibozu had more freedom than the other Tenma's so they were able to get the frontlines. But as a result, the blessing of Muzan Kannazaki is weakened and that was how he was taken down. Furthermore, Yakou's entire existence is an anomaly. Were he, who has reached Taikyoku as a result of being Hajun's stand-in not been there, the Umibozu would have not been stopped unless Ryuumei used the self-destruct technique she used in Tougairyuu. And without Ryuumei, they would have all fallen at Fuwa-no-Seki.
The spell he spun was just one word. Only he had reached this level, and the gate to a world beyond what anyone could imagine would now open.
This was the cosmic Throne at the center of an infinite swastika. This was the level where Yakou existed, and it was none other than his perspective.
In that sense, the expression "opening the gate" was inaccurate. Yakou was always here and could not leave. It wasn't that he had just entered the room, it was just that everything looked this way to his eyes.
In other words, what he had manipulated with the spell earlier was rather Ryusui's perspective. He had picked up her existence and aligned it with his own perspective.
The ants who see a person's vision will likely become confused, and Ryusui, who sees Yakou's vision, falls into a similar phenomenon.
Each and every twinkling galaxy and celestial body is an incredibly large part of the universe. These are transformed into pointillism, creating a great mandala that depicts the world.
It is a world that can be called heaven, overlooking the present world.
Here is literally Yakou's profile in-game unlocked after Yakou invites Ryuusui to his special mandala perspective. Says it right there that his Taikyoku is 2. I have not exempted anything from my comments. You are being willfully ignorant if you're going to say Yakou before getting his third eye does not have Taikyoku. I literally just booted up the game and reset my whole progress just so I can be sure of at what point this profile is unlocked and take a screenshot just now. As such, there is no point in the story that Yakou as a fighter does not have Taikyoku, and his placement on the ranking is valid with Taikyoku included since all three of his in-game profiles in Kajiri Kamui Kagura says he has Taikyoku. There is no version of Yakou in the story that is pre-attainment of Taikyoku, he always has it from the beginning of the story. And of course, there is the Yatsukahagi at rank 6 who also have Taikyoku. Even if you say that these are the versions of them with their Taikyoku inactive, that still means they at least have a potency of Taikyoku value of 2 to be able to fight Yakou before he gets his third eye. However, I do not NEED the ranking to prove my point, so I won't die on this hill.
Frankly, you can say just about anything of me and accuse me of distorting stuff and no one would know any better because 80% of the verse is untranslated without any proper means of fact checking. I have done nothing but use proper debating etiquette, I fact checked my scans and sources with the official translation thread of this wiki, and even admitted to not knowing what I don't know or stuff I got wrong after being corrected here. And I made sure when this thread turned into a staff only thread, I contacted mods to ensure I am allowed to comment. You however have been on the attack on me, calling me ignorant and aggressively threaten me with even a report. This is poor debating imo. Hell, didn't you accuse of another user, Coston, in this thread that they were ignorant and didn't read the source material, only for Tarang to come and say that they did?
I don’t think I can contribute much to this discussion since it’s about the source material, and I haven’t played the VNs or anything. I’d rather wait until those familiar with the verse determine whose reasoning is the most accurate before chiming in.
And Yakou before he gets his third eye does have Taikyoku. He is not an abandoned sensory by any means, that only occurs after Hajun takes back his Taikyoku when Yakou dives into the singularity. But before that, he is a genuine sensory.
Hell, the entire description of Yakou activating his Taikyoku and inviting Ryuusui to his special perspective happens before the EE departs to Edo. I think you'd know this if you read Kajiri Kamui Kagura.
Here is Masada confirming Yakou before getting his third eye having Taikyoku:
Here is Yakou literally saying Taikyoku before getting his third eye.
The spell he spun was just one word. Only he had reached this level, and the gate to a world beyond what anyone could imagine would now open.
This was the cosmic Throne at the center of an infinite swastika. This was the level where Yakou existed, and it was none other than his perspective.
In that sense, the expression "opening the gate" was inaccurate. Yakou was always here and could not leave. It wasn't that he had just entered the room, it was just that everything looked this way to his eyes.
In other words, what he had manipulated with the spell earlier was rather Ryusui's perspective. He had picked up her existence and aligned it with his own perspective.
The ants who see a person's vision will likely become confused, and Ryusui, who sees Yakou's vision, falls into a similar phenomenon.
Each and every twinkling galaxy and celestial body is an incredibly large part of the universe. These are transformed into pointillism, creating a great mandala that depicts the world.
It is a world that can be called heaven, overlooking the present world.
Here is literally Yakou's profile in-game unlocked after Yakou invites Ryuusui to his special mandala perspective. Says it right there that his Taikyoku is 2. I have not exempted anything from my comments. You are being willfully ignorant if you're going to say Yakou before getting his third eye does not have Taikyoku. I literally just booted up the game and reset my whole progress just so I can be sure of at what point this profile is unlocked and take a screenshot just now.
I was going to wait to get home before making a proper reply, but I can't wait anymore. The yakou you are referring to has a colorless Taikyoku, something you know already. Effectively making him useless as he has no craving hence he is not a real god, he was literally Ryuusui experiment and was created by Ryuusui, which is why he had them to begin with. He only achieved an actual Taikyoku after he realized his craving is to "kill everyone" and after which he properly ascends.
Is anything I have said so far wrong?
Of course you know they are not wrong and you could have provided this context instead of trying pass this as a yakou with an actual taikyoku.
Here literally in Yakou's game profile and clearly written there, that due to the nature of his colourless taikyoku he can only manipulate things within the laws of the world. Whereas an actual taikyoku allows you to be disconnected and control the laws of the world.
Strictly speaking, this is not an extraordinary ability, since Yakou has reached the throne that governs everything. It simply means that he can realize any physical phenomena of the universe, which is the complete opposite of the ability to distort the laws of the world
Tldr: his taikyoku gives him the ability to view the world like a painting but due to the fact that he has no craving and he is not a real god, he cannot not manipulate anything outside of the world, which is why he can summon things but he can't affect or change them. Irregardless, his effective Taikyoku value is 0 at this point of the story, which was why he is not classified as an actual god.
So would you tell me you did not know this context before making your post? Which was why I called you dishonest, if you are as knowledgeable as you claimed you would know this, which means you left it out on purpose.
To address your snippet from the other message you sent.
This is Yakou fighting Tenma Morei at Fuwanoseki. Before Morei activates her Taikyoku, she was sending lightning bolts that can destroy Yakou's attacks and defenses. And Yakou admits that Morei has higher power than he does, comparing himself as a 10 to Morei's 11 to 15 in her current state. This means that even when Morei's Taikyoku is inactive, her attacks are still on the level of Taikyoku, even to contend with someone who has a Taikyoku value of 2.
As I have already explained that his Taikyoku is useless as they are not real, they lack craving and as he himself said
This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku
There's a character called Keishirou and he has the distortion of manipulating misfortune and controlling it to attack his enemies. He doesn't have Taikyoku, not to this point in the story. Here he manipulates Morei's lightning bolt and hits his comrade, Habaki, with it. It doesn't stop there, Habaki, who also doesn't have Taikyoku yet, tanked the lightning bolt and absorbed its power to add to his own attack. So we have two mortal characters who don't have any divine powers manipulate a Taikyoku level attack and even absorb it. And for those who do know Shinza, this was before Tumor Mandala kicks in. That only occurs after Rindou dies at Fuwanoseki.
You used the argument that yakou had taikyoku level attacks and Morei's lightning could cancel them, hence the lightning are taikyoku level, and as my previous messages have proved that none of this attacks are taikyoku in ratings it is safe to say this argument falls apart.
But it brings me to the fact that this were scenes before Morei activates her taikyoku, and after which she did, she was said to burn anything that has not achieved taiji. So would you also say you did not know her lightning attacks are not Taikyoku level since her taikyoku were not activated here? Or did you purposely leave that out too?
As such, there is no point in the story that Yakou as a fighter does not have Taikyoku, and his placement on the ranking is valid with Taikyoku included since all three of his in-game profiles in Kajiri Kamui Kagura says he has Taikyoku. And of course, there is the Yatsukahagi at rank 6 who also have Taikyoku. Even if you say that these are the versions of them with their Taikyoku inactive, that still means they at least have a potency of Taikyoku value of 2 to be able to fight Yako before he gets his third eye. However, I do not NEED the ranking to prove my point, so I won't die on this hill.
Just because you just conceded to your point being wrong does not change the fact that you knew this already about the rankings, but decided to distort this to make your arguments seem credible.
Frankly, you can say just about anything of me and accuse me of distorting stuff and no one would know any better because 80% of the verse is untranslated without any proper means of fact checking. I have done nothing but use proper debating etiquette, I fact checked my scans and sources with the official translation thread of this wiki, and even admitted to not knowing what I don't know or stuff I got wrong after being corrected here. And I made sure when this thread turned into a staff only thread, I contacted mods to ensure I am allowed to comment. You however have been on the attack on me, calling me ignorant and aggressively threaten me with even a report. This is poor debating imo.
You are an old user who decided to revive their account after this thread was made and talks only about shinza and makes ignorant shotgun arguments and argues like a sock proxy, forgive me if I am not buying the whole shticks. And frankly I am tired of your bringing up points and having to refute them, or would you like me to list all the points you have been proven wrong on so far?
To everyone else,
The point here is that @Legacy30 is either a knowledgeable member who is purposely distorting the narrative to fit his opinions/views. Or he is a sock proxy and does not really know much about the series.
The holes in his arguments are too many to simply pass it of as ignorance, they are leaving stuffs out to make claims that are not true.
That isn't my issue, my issue is that neither Ren nor Lotus has the qualifications from birth to become a Hadou God. He does not have the right to go from a lower tier to a higher tier through the inaccessible difference described for the 1-A rating. For him to go from a mortal to a god without any assistance from a higher source of power means it's an antifeat for divine power. Because it shows it is possible to go from a mortal to a god with the power of love. And love is not proven to be a metaphysical 1-A power source.
Therefore, gods and the like can't be 1-A due to the standards of this wiki. And Ren has the second strongest craving in the series as a result of resisting Hajun's law for 8000 years, his craving was not that strong before that, so that's a moot point. Once Mercurius dies, Ren just stays as a genuine Hadou God against Hajun during the flashback scene of Hajun vs the Guardians of Twilight. How does he do it? It's not via having the second strongest craving in the series, it's through the power of love.
Why would that be an anti-feat? Because Merc made ren capable of this even Masada noted he would be capable of it. And why even bring the power of love when that also shows his craving power? It's not some random power cuz it just shows the power of his WISH and CRAVING. It was just that strong. Cuz craving depends on how much you WANT IT. So love or whatever just means it strengthens his craving not some wacky whatever power.
Mags' Madou/Meifu Madou is as strong and can fight on the level of the gods, that is undeniable. Which is a bad look for the gods more than anything. Mags gets stronger via his own power, his Madou, and he shows he reached the strength to match a god since killing Nadare since she can't come back and admits that she won't lose unless a god-like being kills her. But there's a problem because the only thing to describe Mags' level up after killing her is that he becomes an immutable conceptual void. No divine powers, no nothing. If he had some other element equal to divine power(Big Bang and others), it'd help to have it mentioned.
We know that the cosmology limited to the first generation of the throne, only Hadou Gods were allowed to come to existence because the system worked that way and allowed for the birth of Hadou God candidates like Sirius. But Mags breaks the rules because of his exclusive Madou. He gets to fight God tiers through becoming stronger via his own power with every victory. You need an external help from a 1-A power source or being to elevate you to that level or you had it since birth. Both of which doesn't fit the method of Madou. Gods and divine power in general and Mags in association wouldn't fit with being 1-A due to this. Because it proves with enough power accumulated from a lower realm, you can reach the gods. Having an exclusion to the rules was a terrible idea for the verse.
Muzan, he doesn't matter to the argument. I'm only focusing on Mags and his Madou. That's my fault for mentioning it in the first place, my apologies.
Hadous are the only ones allowed to take the throne. Nothing really states other can't exist as its based on your insanity to change things as Mithra wanted soldiers anyway. It's more like they are that strong. Again while Mags never really exuded Hadou or Gudou, he absorbed Hadou traits throughout the story. And was comfortably able to become a Hadou god as a result (into Muzan). My point is Mags already seem to have the quality due to gaining the wishes and Hadou of the other gods but his way of life Madou made him not use Hadou nor Gudou like the gods we know. It's vague admittedly but there is a reason why he transition to a Hadou quite easily through the personality armor so he should have some god qualities from absorbing the 3 candidates.
Not sure why you're sweeping it under the rug when Yakou did survive that. Just because he died later doesn't excuse that he endured all that, long enough for Ryuusui to come running after his fallen body and talk to him for some time. Oh well, agree to disagree, since I don't think there's much more to be said about it.
I mean it's pointless...since we can easily say Kasumi's talk with the spirits lasted in a milisecond but it took like 2-3 minutes to get to the point. It's a visual novel and fiction does this all the time. You have remember fiction time =/= our real time.
Firstly I never said Yakou can exit taiji. Never was the point.
This is Yakou fighting Tenma Morei at Fuwanoseki. Before Morei activates her Taikyoku, she was sending lightning bolts that can destroy Yakou's attacks and defenses. And Yakou admits that Morei has higher power than he does, comparing himself as a 10 to Morei's 11 to 15 in her current state. This means that even when Morei's Taikyoku is inactive, her attacks are still on the level of Taikyoku, even to contend with someone who has a Taikyoku value of 2.
I never really said as well values don't mean too much just overall craving. The thing is Morei is also a legionnare so the way she works is activation and such while Yato who's the only true hadou could not exit. The only thing she has in "taiji" was the time armor which is from Yato himself.
There's a character called Keishirou and he has the distortion of manipulating misfortune and controlling it to attack his enemies. He doesn't have Taikyoku, not to this point in the story. Here he manipulates Morei's lightning bolt and hits his comrade, Habaki, with it. It doesn't stop there, Habaki, who also doesn't have Taikyoku yet, tanked the lightning bolt and absorbed its power to add to his own attack. So we have two mortal characters who don't have any divine powers manipulate a Taikyoku level attack and even absorb it. And for those who do know Shinza, this was before Tumor Mandala kicks in. That only occurs after Rindou dies at Fuwanoseki.
If we were to use the metaphor used in the series, this would be like a painting controlling a painter's hand to move their paintbrush in the way they want, which does not work. This is bad for Yakou as well since he is associated in this context, who has the descriptions of having a perspective of seeing things as a mandala and being a singularity. This shows the mandala comparisons and metaphors are just that, metaphors and not genuine R > F differences.
Distortions are from Numahime who is also a legionnare of Yato so there is that. Not to mention Habaki is alive because of the tumor and its his sensory. Hence why he is that strong and capable of surviving. It is before Kikei Mandala but Habaki is the main sensory so he had a different way.
Yet that's how Yakou is. He mentions his geniune PoV was like that mandala and its only cuz he's at the god's level and the picture analogy is more frequent when they reached a god's level.
We have the official power ranking of the series. And this is comparing to how strong they are in general. If it were limited to physical strength, there would be better and more specific terms to use than just strength (強さ). Why does this matter? Well, Yakou is part of the Eastern Expedition Main Forces, and he is ranked 4th, lower than some characters that don't have Taikyoku. He with a Taikyoku value of 2. If he was special and stronger than the Eastern Expedition Main Forces at rank 4, Masada would've specified him as separate from the others like how he uses other named characters like Ryuusui and Ryumei, who are characters from Kajiri Kamui Kagura with the former being a part of the Eastern Expedition in the story.
Then what if this was ranking physical strength and not strength, including Taikyoku, in general? There'd be inconsistencies like Habaki of EE in rank 4 being lower than Ryumei in rank 5, because the former has a physical strength of 8 while the latter has 7 as mortals.
No that is specifically just strength and no other abilities. For one Spinne won't lose to Know cuz he has to true way to kill Spinne as he is just cybernetics. Like Yakou can manipulate celestial bodies so...this has to consider their physicals mostly. Yakou's taiji would have put him in tier 6 ball park so there is that problem...And we don't have any proper feats for Dust Angels and such in terms of physicals yet the chart shows they should be at that level despite people like Belial having tier 7 power and being God's Dark Side (there are two instances where it is said he could kill God/Muzan) so it should show the physicals. Its a lot of match ups and abilities that will clash making it a lot more tricky otherwise.
I suggest the God tiers, the Throne, Singularity, and the like to be low 1-C as the Throne is described as a hyperdimensional space and Yato being a higher dimensional existence. However, I am ashamed to admit that I am not the most knowledgeable of Paradise Lost, another entry in the series that has no official translation. Since Redgraves mentioned the higher dimensions in PL, the verse could end up being normal 1-C. As I recall, there are 10 dimensions that reflect the tree of Sefirot, and the Throne exists on Keter at the top. So long as the nature of those dimensions are described as spatial and temporal dimensions, I don't mind a 1-C rating.
I would have to say though the throne was stated to transcend ALL as well so even dimensions should be included or dualities. I feel the hyperdimensional space is a big problem and a weird outlier when we have a lot of painting analogies from DI, KKK and Avesta (whcih has a story book analogy to boot). I can argue an author could say something cool cuz...every time I try to find hyperdimensional, its pretty vague in English. And that part is only mentioned once for the throne when it shouldn't be shackled by dimensions if it is above them all.
Don't know when I can re-respond if there is one cuz wack.
Edit: Aslo Pain No it was Ryuusui. Not Ryuumei. Ryuusui made him to be her gary stu OC but Hajun hijacked.
I was going to wait to get home before making a proper reply, but I can't wait anymore. The yakou you are referring to has a colorless Taikyoku, something you know already. Effectively making him useless as he has no craving hence he is not a real god, he was literally Ryumei experiment and was created by Ryumei, which is why he had them to begin with. He only achieved an actual Taikyoku after he realized his craving is to "kill everyone" and after which he properly ascends.
Is anything I have said so far wrong?
Of course you know they are not wrong and you could have provided this context instead of trying pass this as a yakou with an actual taikyoku.
Here literally in Yakou's game profile and clearly written there, that due to the nature of his colourless taikyoku he can only manipulate things within the laws of the world. Whereas an actual taikyoku allows you to be disconnected and control the laws of the world.
Tldr: his taikyoku gives him the ability to view the world like a painting but due to the fact that he has no craving and he is not a real god, he cannot not manipulate anything outside of the world, which is why he can summon things but he can't affect or change them. Irregardless, his effective Taikyoku value is 0 at this point of the story, which was why he is not classified as an actual god.
So would you tell me you did not know this context before making your post? Which was why I called you dishonest, if you are as knowledgeable as you claimed you would know this, which means you left it out on purpose.
are not true.
TK value of 0? False, it's 2. So his AP is TK 2 as well. TK value of 0 does not exist, you either have it or you don't, and it doesn't start at 0, why even use old misinformation? Just because it's colorless and in development, it does not detract that Yakou does have TK and its value is 2. When he summoned the meteorite to kill Awaumi, the text explicitly says he manipulates Taikyoku. And the only way to kill Awaumi at that point was to have TK with the only other option is Ryumei using Shura Mandala and suicide bombing Awaumi.
Also, the scan I sent says to overcome Morei's attacks, you have to change the laws of the world and Yakou does exactly that. And Yakou is stated to be disconnected from the world also, being a singularity and all.
Metal overcomes wood - that's the truth, but the fundamentals are different. Morei's lightning, which can even split mountains in two, is woven with the laws of another world, and is a different concept from the lightning humans know.
Therefore, to overcome it, it is necessary to change the laws of the world, and it is not something that even an average magician can prevent, even with the efforts of many people.
Yakou has endured such a fierce attack a total of eleven times up to this point. In fact, it was only thanks to him that Habaki and the others were able to avoid annihilation in the first attack.
Therefore, all of Morei's attacks have been nullified, and in that sense, Yakou seems to have the upper hand... or so it seems.
You used the argument that yakou had taikyoku level attacks and Morei's lightning could cancel them, hence the lightning are taikyoku level, and as my previous messages have proved that none of this attacks are taikyoku in ratings it is safe to say this argument falls apart.
But it brings me to the fact that this were scenes before Morei activates her taikyoku, and after which she did, she was said to burn anything that has not achieved taiji. So would you also say you did not know her lightning attacks are not Taikyoku level since her taikyoku were not activated here? Or did you purposely leave that out too?
I already addressed that this was Morei with her TK deactivated that made those attacks as well when I brought up this topic? It's not like I left that out. My argument is that even with her TK deactivated, her AP is still TK due to passive buffs from having it.
Yakou's TK isn't on the level of the Tenma's, it doesn't deny that his TK is genuine and on the level of TK itself. It just means his TK is weaker currently.
Just because you just conceded to your point being wrong does not change the fact that you knew this already about the rankings, but decided to distort this to make your arguments seem credible.
You are an old user who decided to revive their account after this thread was made and talks only about shinza and makes ignorant shotgun arguments and argues like a sock proxy, forgive me if I am not buying the whole shticks. And frankly I am tired of your bringing up points and having to refute them, or would you like me to list all the points you have been proven wrong on so far?
I didn't concede to being wrong? Stop putting words in my mouth. I am still of the mind that the Yatsukahagi in that ranking are the ones with TK. I'm saying I don't have to go the effort to refute it because my other points can hold on their own. The ranking works more as supporting evidence. Is there a problem to being inactive and lurking for years, only to become active again when a series I follow is getting threads again?
To everyone else,
The point here is that @Legacy30 is either a knowledgeable member who is purposely distorting the narrative to fit his opinions/views. Or he is a sock proxy and does not really know much about the series.
The holes in his arguments are too many to simply pass it of as ignorance, they are leaving stuffs out to make claims that are not true.
I don't know what a sock proxy is, it's just me only here. The guy who made comments from years back and even now are the same guy. I'm not purposefully leaving stuff out, cuz it's been a long time that I've had to discuss K3 and others, so it's not like I have every scan and context on me. I'm only arguing within the limits of refreshing myself with the information I need, since I'm arguing on the basis of low 1-C Shinza. You just convinced yourself that I'm a troll when I'm being genuinely serious here with my own opinion and interpretations. Me having different opinions doesn't mean I'm actually being coy or dishonest. Heck, Redgrave's over here seems to have different ideas from your own as well, Pein, considering he sorta agrees that Yakou's TK pre-third eye is TK level.
Why would that be an anti-feat? Because Merc made ren capable of this even Masada noted he would be capable of it. And why even bring the power of love when that also shows his craving power? It's not some random power cuz it just shows the power of his WISH and CRAVING. It was just that strong. Cuz craving depends on how much you WANT IT. So love or whatever just means it strengthens his craving not some wacky whatever power.
Because once Merc dies, Ren loses all of his godhood. Even Masada said that Ren becoming a god through Merc blood is not a genuine god like Merc and Marie. And even Ren in Three Colors, the one whose craving equals to Merc, at a value of 90, lost his godhood with Merc gone. I don't see how it should be any different in the K3 scenario when Ren lost his Merc blood in him and lost his one-way ticket to godhood. Point is, Ren lost his qualifications, but he broke the rules and stayed as a god as someone that no longer has any qualifications. Having a strong enough craving is fine on its own, it's a problem when the one becoming a god doesn't have the right to it from birth or an external factor anymore. Ren just busts through the gap by his own power, which is a no no by the wiki's standards.
Hadous are the only ones allowed to take the throne. Nothing really states other can't exist as its based on your insanity to change things as Mithra wanted soldiers anyway. It's more like they are that strong. Again while Mags never really exuded Hadou or Gudou, he absorbed Hadou traits throughout the story. And was comfortably able to become a Hadou god as a result (into Muzan). My point is Mags already seem to have the quality due to gaining the wishes and Hadou of the other gods but his way of life Madou made him not use Hadou nor Gudou like the gods we know. It's vague admittedly but there is a reason why he transition to a Hadou quite easily through the personality armor so he should have some god qualities from absorbing the 3 candidates.
That's close but kinda not what I was getting at. I'm talking about what path is allowed for one to transcend as. Because Gudou Gods can't be born because the universe has yet to become a multiverse. And I don't think absorbing the Hadous of three other candidates is a good answer considering none of them achieved Godhood, so Mags can't have inherited any god qualities from them. There is just no real answer for why Mags can have the strength to match the gods other than he is just HIM.
I wasn't saying you said that. In context, Yakou can survive all that while being a mortal which is a damn silly thing to happen for a supposed R > F difference. Agree to disagree I say.
I never really said as well values don't mean too much just overall craving. The thing is Morei is also a legionnare so the way she works is activation and such while Yato who's the only true hadou could not exit. The only thing she has in "taiji" was the time armor which is from Yato himself.
Distortions are from Numahime who is also a legionnare of Yato so there is that. Not to mention Habaki is alive because of the tumor and its his sensory. Hence why he is that strong and capable of surviving. It is before Kikei Mandala but Habaki is the main sensory so he had a different way.
Yet that's how Yakou is. He mentions his geniune PoV was like that mandala and its only cuz he's at the god's level and the picture analogy is more frequent when they reached a god's level.
Eh, I don't think the origin of their distortions being from Numahime matters in this context? Without much evidence for this fact to be a reason why Keishirou can affect Morei's attack, it's speculation at best. Fair on Habaki though. I'm not 100% sold, but I see the logic, and I'm not confident enough to refute it.
I take it you agree that Yakou pre-third eye is indeed at the TK level/God level? He's not a real or pseudo god at this point, but he can wield divine power regardless.
No that is specifically just strength and no other abilities. For one Spinne won't lose to Know cuz he has to true way to kill Spinne as he is just cybernetics. Like Yakou can manipulate celestial bodies so...this has to consider their physicals mostly. Yakou's taiji would have put him in tier 6 ball park so there is that problem...And we don't have any proper feats for Dust Angels and such in terms of physicals yet the chart shows they should be at that level despite people like Belial having tier 7 power and being God's Dark Side (there are two instances where it is said he could kill God/Muzan) so it should show the physicals. Its a lot of match ups and abilities that will clash making it a lot more tricky otherwise.
I would have to say though the throne was stated to transcend ALL as well so even dimensions should be included or dualities. I feel the hyperdimensional space is a big problem and a weird outlier when we have a lot of painting analogies from DI, KKK and Avesta (whcih has a story book analogy to boot). I can argue an author could say something cool cuz...every time I try to find hyperdimensional, its pretty vague in English. And that part is only mentioned once for the throne when it shouldn't be shackled by dimensions if it is above them all.
Don't know when I can re-respond if there is one cuz wack.
Edit: Aslo Pain No it was Ryuusui. Not Ryuumei. Ryuusui made him to be her gary stu OC but Hajun hijacked.
I know I'll sound like a broken record, but could you provide the scans that says the Throne specifically transcends all? Because there are weird cases like Merc transcending all concepts and that was a liberty by the official translation and not from the raws themselves.
