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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

Alexander said:
Zalama, the creator of the super dragon balls, you know, like the most powerful things in this verse...and the guy is just non existent?
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I mean, yeah basically. Dragon Ball's been doing that sort of thing since the very beginning: introducing something to the lore but not expanding on it.

It's unfortunate because I'd like to learn more about Zalama, but it was to be expected from someone like Akira Toriyama.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I mean, yeah basically. Dragon Ball's been doing that sort of thing since the very beginning: introducing something to the lore but not expanding on it.

It's unfortunate because I'd like to learn more about Zalama, but it was to be expected from someone like Akira Toriyama.
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more reasons why dragon ball is mediocre, thanks
 
Alexander said:
more reasons why dragon ball is mediocre, thanks
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Honestly, what does it matter if we know anything about Zalama or not? Unless Dragon Ball decides to one day have an arc involving the Dragon Balls, allowing us to learn more about Zalama, knowing the name of the creator of the Super Dragon Balls is irrelevant to the overarching story.

Not every single piece of Dragon Ball has to be spoonfed to us
 
Alexander said:
yes it does, specially if you are going to bring the actual creator of the multiverse like, 10 years after (actually like 9 )
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My God, are you baiting?

Zeno just commands the multiverse, he created absolutely nothing and governing is different from creating, man
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
Honestly, what does it matter if we know anything about Zalama or not? Unless Dragon Ball decides to one day have an arc involving the Dragon Balls, allowing us to learn more about Zalama, knowing the name of the creator of the Super Dragon Balls is irrelevant to the overarching story.

Not every single piece of Dragon Ball has to be spoonfed to us
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I also don't want them to use old ideas from the past again...and they will continue to do so.
 
I mean Sonic Frontiers isn't bad, per say, but playing the game on repeat playthroughs made me realize that the game isn't as good as it was when I initially played it back in 2022. I'll just stick to Shadow Generations.
 
Kroneii1 said:
I also forgot to mention that in that timeline that is on the toei page years ago, they use the word universe again to refer to the entire multiverse.
I remember it said "future universe" which again shows that the words are interchangeable.
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悟空が未来の全王を呼び、サマスを未来の宇宙ごと消滅させる。悟空たちは元の時代へと帰還
"Goku summons the Zen-Oh of the future, who erases Zamasu along with the entire future universe. Goku and the others return to their original era."
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Zen-Oh erased the Universe 7 of the future. Zamasu had merged with the Universe 7 of the future. The particle goto (ごと) connects Zamasu and the universe.
Zen-Oh erased the Universe 7 of the future and Zamasu together; as Infinite Zamasu, he and universe were one.
The chart uses terms like rekishi (歴史, "history"), heikō sekai (並行世界, "parallel world"), and jidai (時代, "era") but, all of a sudden, uses uchū (宇宙, "universe") once?
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Requiring any and all world building to be immediately relevant and game changing is silly. I didn't say you said all world buidling was bad, I said us learning more about the origins of Namekians, Glinds, and the creation of the multiverse is pretty meaningful considering how important all these concepts are to Dragon Ball.

Not to mention, there is tons of immediately relevant exposition and world building in Daima like past Demon Kings, the Third Eye, and the creation of Majin Buu.

If you don't find that to be an interesting addition that's fine, and I agree the show should've used some of its time more wisely, but the lore drops we did get were pretty big and added context and history to a ton of recurring story elements in Dragon Ball. And I really wouldn't describe any of it as 'thrown in'.

So lore drops of that magnitude are the farthest thing from fluff. There is fluff in Daima, but this example is the farthest thing from it.

Plus I already find the core of Daima's story to be compelling, as it's a perfect summarization of the sort of universe Dragon Ball is and the people who live in it, so that added lore was welcome to me.

So if you actually make an arguement, yeah I'll engage with it, but this is the first time you've actually bothered to elaborate rather than just throw jabs and go 'nuh uh I already did' when I ask you to explain your assertions.
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You're still missing the point. I never said world-building has to be immediately game-changing, but it does need to serve a purpose in the story beyond just existing.in Daima, the majority of these lore drops whether it's the origin of Namekians, the Glinds, or the multiverse don’t meaningfully impact the characters or the actual progression of events. They’re just there.

Yes, learning about past Demon Kings, the Third Eye, and Majin Buu’s creation might be interesting for lore enthusiasts, but does that make Daima a better story? No. You even admitted the show could have used its time more wisely, which proves my point, if the pacing and the plot actually moved forward , then maybe these lore drops would feel more meaningful instead of some distractions.


XXBenShapiroXx said:
So if you actually make an arguement, yeah I'll engage with it, but this is the first time you've actually bothered to elaborate rather than just throw jabs and go 'nuh uh I already did' when I ask you to explain your assertions.
Click to expand...

You keep acting like I haven’t made an argument when I literally have. I explained why the characters are dull—because they don’t contribute to the story, what did Penzy do for the plot? What did kuu do for the plot outside of the last episode? What did Kaioshin do for the plot? Nothing, do they develop as characters? No, their character is still the same since episode 1, they could be removed without changing anything. The pacing is bad because most episodes follow the same repetitive formula—Goku fights random soldiers or thieves, we get a prolonged dialogue scene, and then we get a lore dump that doesn’t push the story forward. If you disagree, name one episode outside of the Tagatami battles where the plot made real progress or a major fight happened. You literally won’t find one. As for the final battle....it was a joke. It was literally just: Gomah gets punched, regenerates stamina, gets punched again, regenerates stamina again—repeating this cycle until the last episode. How is that engaging?, that’s just lazy and boring. And design-wise, Gomah is just Jiren with a clown head. If you think that’s a great then idk what to say.

As for SSJ4....There’s no lore behind it. Daima spends all this time dumping unnecessary lore nobody asked for, but when it actually matters, they say nothing and that's the biggest problem with daima.
 
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Prime2024 said:
It was literally just: Gomah gets punched, regenerates stamina, gets punched again, regenerates stamina again—repeating this cycle until the last episode. How is that engaging?
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Well, to be fair, the animation is good, and some moments have some cool choreograpy.
I don't think it makes up completely for the waste of time, but is something right?
 
If Dragon Ball Daima was that bad he wouldn't have high grades in many places and would only have bad grades. Unfortunately for the widows of DBGT and DBS, Dragon Ball Daima exists
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
If Dragon Ball Daima was that bad he wouldn't have high grades in many places and would only have bad grades. Unfortunately for the widows of DBGT and DBS, Dragon Ball Daima exists
Click to expand...
i mean Hazbin Hotel has good grades but most of the people who make videos about it, mostly they say that it is terrible, horrible, bad, shit, trash, garbage, the worst thing created, etc.
 
Alexander said:
i mean Hazbin Hotel has good grades but most of the people who make videos about it, mostly they say that it is terrible, horrible, bad, shit, trash, garbage, the worst thing created, etc.
Click to expand...
I don't even know, but most people said that Dragon Ball Daima is better than Super (at least here in Brazil).
 
Prime2024 said:
You're still missing the point. I never said world-building has to be immediately game-changing, but it does need to serve a purpose in the story beyond just existing.in Daima, the majority of these lore drops whether it's the origin of Namekians, the Glinds, or the multiverse don’t meaningfully impact the characters or the actual progression of events. They’re just there.

Yes, learning about past Demon Kings, the Third Eye, and Majin Buu’s creation might be interesting for lore enthusiasts, but does that make Daima a better story? No. You even admitted the show could have used its time more wisely, which proves my point, if the pacing and the plot actually moved forward , then maybe these lore drops would feel more meaningful instead of some distractions.




You keep acting like I haven’t made an argument when I literally have. I explained why the characters are dull—because they don’t contribute to the story, what did Penzy do for the plot? What did kuu do for the plot outside of the last episode? What did Kaioshin do for the plot? Nothing, do they develop as characters? No, their character is still the same since episode 1, they could be removed without changing anything. The pacing is bad because most episodes follow the same repetitive formula—Goku fights random soldiers or thieves, we get a prolonged dialogue scene, and then we get a lore dump that doesn’t push the story forward. If you disagree, name one episode outside of the Tagatami battles where the plot made real progress or a major fight happened. You literally won’t find one. As for the final battle....it was a joke. It was literally just: Gomah gets punched, regenerates stamina, gets punched again, regenerates stamina again—repeating this cycle until the last episode. How is that engaging?, that’s just lazy and boring. And design-wise, Gomah is just Jiren with a clown head. If you think that’s a great then idk what to say.

And let’s talk about SSJ4....There’s no lore behind it. Daima spends all this time dumping unnecessary lore nobody asked for, but when it actually matters, they say nothing. It’s like they don’t even understand their own priorities.
Click to expand...
Fleshing out the universe, including such large vital parts of it that can be used as potential for future stories basically automatically justifies the existence of those lore drops in my mind. If you disagree, that's fine, but given just how much those lore drops recontextualize the DB universe, the assertion of them being filler or fluff I find absurd.

I agree there was some pacing issues, I've laid out why these lore drops aren't really a related issue, and aren't really an issue at all.

Fighting the Tanagamis to get the Dragon Balls to wish everyone back to adults to save Dende is the premise established as early as ep 4, so those Tamagami episodes being where most of the plot progress ends up being is quite literally just standard plot progression. The episodes in between are the cast moving between worlds on their way to the next Tanagami, so even if it's a slower, getting closer to the primary objective is still progress. Are some episodes too slow in that regard? Yes. But this isn't that much of a dig because most of the plot progression being tied to the established objective of the series is quite literally how most stories work.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, and I'm not 'ignoring' your arguements, I just don't find your criticisms compelling or well founded. They are simply painting things in a inherently negative light to start and just working backwards to find some sort of reasoning from there.

Characters don't exactly need to change to be compelling, they can serve a variety of roles. Supreme Kai not changing isn't a fair knock, hell, Panzy not changing also isn't exactly a reasonable criticism because she wasn't introduced as a character that exactly needed changing. Kuu, Duu, and Panzy are vehicles to show the audience what the people of the demon realm are like, and how despite being demons, aren't inherently bad or evil people. Supreme Kai and Neva is obviously our guide and information giver.

Duu and Kuu both played a role in defeating Tanagami 1, which is set the main cast and Arinsu on a collision course to team up and for the whole Glorio betrayal conflict.

Panzy got the main cast a plane, helped defend the Dragon Ball from thieves, and aided in Dende's rescue. So she absolutely contributed.

So that not changing thing criticsm is myopic, because good character work isn't tied down to just A to B development.

The only really redundant character would be Piccolo imo (Bulma justified her existence with the vegeta bath gag tbh)

Then the final fight is boring because 'Goku kept hitting Gomah and he kept regenerating over and over'.

You just described aspects of the fight, why are these inherently negative? Regenerating enemies like Cell and Buu have already been a thing.

Not only did the Gomah fight start by everyone jumping him and it not working, so it wasn't just Goku, Gomah's regeneration presented an obstacle for the cast that couldn't just be solved by new transformation big strong. Plus with how stellar the animation is, this final fight being boring is a straight up sentiment ridiculous imo. Gomah, the not seasoned warrior, getting trounced by season warriors when he can't just use raw power to overwhelm them and being forced to rely on the Third Eyes adaptation is a pretty logical fight dynamic.

So yeah, you can not like Daima, that's fine, and yes, I'm responding to your arguements when you actually make them, its just that again, I don't find your arguements as all that strong.
 
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There are issues I absolutely do agree on, slow pacing made worse by a 20 episode run time, funky power scaling and anti-feats, underdeveloped side plots like with Degasu, hit and miss care for continuity that leaves behind cratering inconsistencies like SSJ4 and Kais not being fused, teased plot points just doing nothing with the fusion bugs, and yes, even SSJ4 was just inserted in there without nearly the same care as GT build it up with, leaving it abrupt and ill explained.

But characters being dull and final fight being boring, especially with that animation and choreography? I can't agree with that.
 
Alexander said:
i mean Hazbin Hotel has good grades but most of the people who make videos about it, mostly they say that it is terrible, horrible, bad, shit, trash, garbage, the worst thing created, etc.
Click to expand...
And there's just as many people who say the opposite as well, by that logic. It's why my likes and dislikes are from my own opinions instead of basing it off the opinions of others.
 
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Fleshing out the universe, including such large vital parts of it that can be used as potential for future stories basically automatically justifies the existence of those lore drops in my mind. If you disagree, that's fine, but given just how much those lore drops recontextualize the DB universe, the assertion of them being filler or fluff I find absurd.

I agree there was some pacing issues, I've laid out why these lore drops aren't really a related issue, and aren't really an issue at all.

Fighting the Tanagamis to get the Dragon Balls to wish everyone back to adults to save Dende is the premise established as early as ep 4, so those Tamagami episodes being where most of the plot progress ends up being is quite literally just standard plot progression. The episodes in between are the cast moving between worlds on their way to the next Tanagami, so even if it's a slower, getting closer to the primary objective is still progress. Are some episodes too slow in that regard? Yes. But this isn't that much of a dig because most of the plot progression being tied to the established objective of the series is quite literally how most stories work.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, and I'm not 'ignoring' your arguements, I just don't find your criticisms compelling or well founded. They are simply painting things in a inherently negative light to start and just working backwards to find some sort of reasoning from there.

Characters don't exactly need to change to be compelling, they can serve a variety of roles. Supreme Kai not changing isn't a fair knock, hell, Panzy not changing also isn't exactly a reasonable criticism because she wasn't introduced as a character that exactly needed changing. Kuu, Duu, and Panzy are vehicles to show the audience what the people of the demon realm are like, and how despite being demons, aren't inherently bad or evil people. Supreme Kai and Neva is obviously our guide and information giver.

Duu and Kuu both played a role in defeating Tanagami 1, which is set the main cast and Arinsu on a collision course to team up and for the whole Glorio betrayal conflict.

Panzy got the main cast a plane, helped defend the Dragon Ball from thieves, and aided in Dende's rescue. So she absolutely contributed.

So that not changing thing criticsm is myopic, because good character work isn't tied down to just A to B development.

The only really redundant character would be Piccolo imo (Bulma justified her existence with the vegeta bath gag tbh)

Then the final fight is boring because 'Goku kept hitting Gomah and he kept regenerating over and over'.

You just described aspects of the fight, why are these inherently negative? Regenerating enemies like Cell and Buu have already been a thing.

Not only did the Gomah fight start by everyone jumping him and it not working, so it wasn't just Goku, Gomah's regeneration presented an obstacle for the cast that couldn't just be solved by new transformation big strong. Plus with how stellar the animation is, this final fight being boring is a straight up sentiment ridiculous imo. Gomah, the not seasoned warrior, getting trounced by season warriors when he can't just use raw power to overwhelm them and being forced to rely on the Third Eyes adaptation is a pretty logical fight dynamic.

So yeah, you can not like Daima, that's fine, and yes, I'm responding to your arguements when you actually make them, its just that again, I don't find your arguements as all that strong.
Click to expand...


You claim these lore drops are justified because they “flesh out the universe” and “recontextualize Dragon Ball.” But what exactly did they change in a meaningful way? If these drops had direct consequences that impacted the story or character motivations, I’d agree. But they don’t. The story remains the same whether they exist or not. So calling them fluff isn’t absurd, if anything it’s accurate.

As for the pacing, you admit some episodes are too slow, but then try to downplay the issue by saying “that’s just how stories work.” No, stories needs to balance progression with world-building and character moments. Most Daima episodes don’t do that. Instead, they just delay the actual story while making us sit through small, repetitive minor fights and info dumps. Even if moving between worlds technically counts as progress, it doesn’t make those episodes engaging or well-paced lmao.

Now, onto the characters....while it's true that not all characters need to change to be compelling. But they at least need to serve a meaningful role. Your defense of Panzy, Kuu, and Duu is weak. Getting a plane, stopping thieves, or fighting one enemy isn’t enough to justify their existence across 20 episodes. You’re simply listing some random moments. And even Supreme Kai, who you admit doesn’t change, is just an exposition machine lol.

And for the final fight....yes, regenerative enemies like Buu and Cell exist, but they weren’t just punching bags. Cell had a mental advantage over Gohan until he lost control. Buu constantly shifted forms, keeping the fights unpredictable. As for Gomah, he just sits there, gets punched, and regenerates. Repeating a basic gimmick doesn’t make a fight compelling. Animation quality alone doesn’t fix a repetitive battle.

So no, I’m not just “painting things in a negative light.” I’m pointing out legitimate flaws that you keep trying to explain away instead of actually disproving.
 
Prime2024 said:
You claim these lore drops are justified because they “flesh out the universe” and “recontextualize Dragon Ball.” But what exactly did they change in a meaningful way? If these drops had direct consequences that impacted the story or character motivations, I’d agree. But they don’t. The story remains the same whether they exist or not. So calling them fluff isn’t absurd, if anything it’s accurate.

As for the pacing, you admit some episodes are too slow, but then try to downplay the issue by saying “that’s just how stories work.” No, stories needs to balance progression with world-building and character moments. Most Daima episodes don’t do that. Instead, they just delay the actual story while making us sit through small, repetitive minor fights and info dumps. Even if moving between worlds technically counts as progress, it doesn’t make those episodes engaging or well-paced lmao.

Now, onto the characters....while it's true that not all characters need to change to be compelling. But they at least need to serve a meaningful role. Your defense of Panzy, Kuu, and Duu is weak. Getting a plane, stopping thieves, or fighting one enemy isn’t enough to justify their existence across 20 episodes. You’re simply listing some random moments. And even Supreme Kai, who you admit doesn’t change, is just an exposition machine lol.

And for the final fight....yes, regenerative enemies like Buu and Cell exist, but they weren’t just punching bags. Cell had a mental advantage over Gohan until he lost control. Buu constantly shifted forms, keeping the fights unpredictable. As for Gomah, he just sits there, gets punched, and regenerates. Repeating a basic gimmick doesn’t make a fight compelling. Animation quality alone doesn’t fix a repetitive battle.

So no, I’m not just “painting things in a negative light.” I’m pointing out legitimate flaws that you keep trying to explain away instead of actually disproving.
Click to expand...
'Explain away' lol no I explained why they aren't legitimate and mostly involve you trying to be as reductive as possible with every point or just generally misinterpreting my arguements. Like you did just now.

I'm not saying these lore drops 'changed' anything, but they did give the universe a bigger scope, adding to the pantheon of God's that was growing stale and explaining the demon realm's role in the creation of the world our cast is interacting with and has interacted with. There's been a lot of speculation from knowledge figures that there are still more stories to tell and things to explore in the Demon Realm, and these lore drops both give potential stories for Super, creation of the multiverse, as well for possible Daima season 2 with unexplored places inside the demon realm.

Also I'm not downplaying the pacing issue by explaining basic plot structure works. I was explaining how baseless the arguement is that said structure is inherently bad.

So the lore drops did all that as listed above, while expanding largely in touched places in the universe's timeline. You've found a very specific standard and requirement something has to fill in order to qualify as good, and anything that could potentially serve a different role is bad just because.

Duu and Kuu have largely limited screen time compared to the main cast, so outside the final fight and Tanagami 1 fight, most of what they do is interact with each other characters, which showed us Arinsu and most of the Demon Royal Kingdom is far from evil.

So for side characters, they absolutely do enough imo. Same with Panzy. She's actively involved as much as she reasonably can given she's not a fighter.

Gomah's gimmick was that pure power would just never work to bear him. He'd always adapt. Cell and Buu could be overpowered and had their advantages taken away, but not with Gomah.

I find that sort of road block plenty interesting, as not even working together or brand new transformations can net a win. Even becoming adults really only turned the tides momentarily, even SSJ4 probably wouldn't be enough in its own to win. Instead it's the one demon made with the intent to be used to rule the demon realm who comes in and saves it.

It's a bit like earth giving energy for the spirit bomb to finally defeat kid buu, as the place that needs saving helps the cast fight for it.

So yeah it's repetitive, but that was mostly like the point to get across the fact the cast can't brute force their way to a win. You can not like that, fine, but don't treat that as an objective flaw. Just say you didn't like it instead of calling people ignorant and saying everything you say is fact.

This'll be the last essay I type up because I doubt either of us will change our minds and the being as uncharitable as possible with arguements thing has already gotten old.
 
Damn, it's been 10 years since DBS anime was released and 7 years since Dragon Ball Super ended.

Time passed so quickly and i didn't even notice those years
 
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