Something From The Nightside | Greenverse Discussion Thread

[Rutæhh]

check this if any of you wish to.

 

[Rutæhh]

Check it out

 

[Rutæhh]

check it out

 

[Rutæhh]

anyone still here? I havent really been doing anything for the verse as I had a busy last month with Uni but in about 3 weeks or so I will be free to do some stuff
Like finishing of that Outsider page and remaking the magic page

 

[Rutæhh]

somebody changed up Tommy's profile

I mean I dont mind it tbh but damn bruh

 

[Rutæhh]

Isn't there a statements about Lilith's fate hax being negated by John simply working against it and her banishment happening due to sheer luck? Because this

Acausality (Type 4; an oracle stated that his entire existence was "unlikely" to the point that it was difficult to think about, and that all of his actions change not only his own future but the future of everyone else around him. This has shown to make him impossible to predict via Precognition within the context of the setting, and also allowed him to naturally defy a future that was being enforced upon the entire universe)

aint just acausality. Its Supernatural Luck or maybe even fate hax that negate other fate hax.

 

[Quasar002]

Isn't there a statements about Lilith's fate hax being negated by John simply working against it and her banishment happening due to sheer luck? Because this

aint just acausality. Its Supernatural Luck or maybe even fate hax that negate other fate hax.

This seems like a lot of destiny manipulation. 'It changes not only your future, but the future of everyone around you.' I think this is much more than just type 4 acausality, the quote is quite blatant.

 

[Rutæhh]

This seems like a lot of destiny manipulation. 'It changes not only your future, but the future of everyone around you.' I think this is much more than just type 4 acausality, the quote is quite blatant.

Im doing a CRT for it this specifically as well as Lilith's fate hax since hers is missing a few abilities as well

 

[Udlmaster]

aint just acausality. Its Supernatural Luck or maybe even fate hax that negate other fate hax.

It's never explained why the Timeline John moved against Lilith was special and succeeded in defeating her.

We do meet other timeline version of Post-Lilith John and still it's never explained.

As for it being Supernatural luck, it's not. Probability Manipulation such as The Jonah and Count Video work fine against John and the people around him, the closest he has to controlling luck is with his Gift, when he actively uses it to find the right probability and set it back into place, like when he changed the world around him back to an office when Count Video was changing reality or when he blew out the timelines of Emmen 60 and 70

 

[Rutæhh]

I'm more so thinking of these two quotes where its said that his mere presence messes with timelines and that his own future continued even after the soulbomb goes off. The fact it still continued could be some indication of his nature influencing the timeline to his favour. Or just the fact that Excalibur did all the work and thats why he has a future.

Im quite surprised Green hasn't addressed Lilith's defeat. I must have misremembered it. you would think he wouldn't miss a chance to make John more broken but oh well.

 

[Rutæhh]

It's never explained why the Timeline John moved against Lilith was special and succeeded in defeating her.

We do meet other timeline version of Post-Lilith John and still it's never explained.

As for it being Supernatural luck, it's not. Probability Manipulation such as The Jonah and Count Video work fine against John and the people around him, the closest he has to controlling luck is with his Gift, when he actively uses it to find the right probability and set it back into place, like when he changed the world around him back to an office when Count Video was changing reality or when he blew out the timelines of Emmen 60 and 70

History Erasure via Probability Manipulation? 60 and 70 did stop existing in the present timeline and John does threaten Molly of finding a way to make her never exist in the first place but its John so you know.

 

[Udlmaster]

I'm more so thinking of these two quotes where its said that his mere presence messes with timelines

Yeah, he's very improbable and everything around him is screwy, but that's no much luck as it is his acausality, since even the Flux fog couldn't send him to another reality.

History Erasure via Probability Manipulation?

Causality Manipulation

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I have been pestered into suggesting that The Walking Man get Conceptual Manipulation (The Inscrutable Enigma died trying to affect him), Weapon Mastery ("Can kill with any weapon", proves quite skilled with his guns) and Deconstruction (Tore the city apart).

Seems like Rut's sandbox lists the last one as telekinesis.

 

[Rutæhh]

I have been pestered into suggesting that The Walking Man get Conceptual Manipulation (The Inscrutable Enigma died trying to affect him), Weapon Mastery ("Can kill with any weapon", proves quite skilled with his guns) and Deconstruction (Tore the city apart).

Seems like Rut's sandbox lists the last one as telekinesis.

I have to fix that one tbh a bunch of stuff is missing in there and I also got to fix the resistances as well. Hes resistant to everything in the Greenverse.


Also he can get CM resistance from multiple places like the Transient Beings or the Wild Magic, that specific example doesn't fit CM for me

 

[Rutæhh]

anyone got any good healing spell feats? hellfire burns and Wulfsbane wounds are cant be healed from even by Droods

 

[Quasar002]

I've been reading the Nightside books for a while now. I just finished Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth, where the War of Lilith takes place—great book. But well, has anyone thought about how the scaling of the verse will be handled here on the Wiki? I mean, I remember 1-A and possibly High 1-A being considered by some. So I wanted to know if this is being pursued, because the profiles seem quite incomplete, with classifications reaching at most 1-B.

And moving on, as far as my knowledge goes, many descriptions in the Nightside books could easily place the verse in 1-A. Simon Green is quite descriptive when it comes to higher levels of reality. For example, angels and other spiritual beings are described as "more real than the entire material world." And when an angel (Pretty Poison) descends into the material world, it's said that she comes from a direction above in every sense of the word. Spiritual things like souls or concepts have no shape or form—though I’m not sure if that alone would place the verse in 1-A, but it’s at least supporting evidence.

The verse has an absurdly high amount of hax, lol. I don't know any other urban fantasy verse with this much hax, and I'm only halfway through, lol.

 

[Udlmaster]

as far as my knowledge goes, many descriptions in the Nightside books could easily place the verse in 1-A.

It's being worked on, I've got some blogs that have been working on them in the background

 

[Quasar002]

It's being worked on, I've got some blogs that have been working on them in the background

Interesting, I’ll be waiting. Do you already have a consensus on who/what would be the baseline for 1-A?

 

[Rutæhh]

I've been reading the Nightside books for a while now. I just finished Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth, where the War of Lilith takes place—great book. But well, has anyone thought about how the scaling of the verse will be handled here on the Wiki? I mean, I remember 1-A and possibly High 1-A being considered by some. So I wanted to know if this is being pursued, because the profiles seem quite incomplete, with classifications reaching at most 1-B.

God can be considerd High 1-A with ease since he surpasses anything the Greenverse offers

And moving on, as far as my knowledge goes, many descriptions in the Nightside books could easily place the verse in 1-A. Simon Green is quite descriptive when it comes to higher levels of reality. For example, angels and other spiritual beings are described as "more real than the entire material world." And when an angel (Pretty Poison) descends into the material world, it's said that she comes from a direction above in every sense of the word. Spiritual things like souls or concepts have no shape or form—though I’m not sure if that alone would place the verse in 1-A, but it’s at least supporting evidence.

Its really good supporting evidence but the best one is this one I believe

This is a state of existence where beings are so strange and magical that they are released from material form and become immaterial, as far beyond us as we are from mere chalk on the ground.

 

[Udlmaster]

Interesting, I’ll be waiting. Do you already have a consensus on who/what would be the baseline for 1-A?

All the higher dimensional beings like Psychonaughts are all 1-A.

The Higher dimensional ones were flat out described as being larger than the Space-Time continuum and that they were "more real" than everything else and saw people as chalk drawings and would even reduce them down to such when absorbing them accidently.

You have the Outsiders too like the Primal, Purely Conceptual beings from outside of creation. The Primals when just possessing physical matter were too much for the mind to comprehend.

Then you have entities from the Overworld. The Overworld was described the boundaries of the immaterial and was as close to Heaven and Hell as you could get. When Angels manifest, they come from the Overworld, and when Julian, Deadboy and John summoned the redeemed Pretty Poison (not her name anymore) it was described as "above" in every sense of the word and that it was "downloading" itself into a mortal frame so that it wouldn't blow the fuses of merely mortal minds.

When John is talking to Pretty Poison even he himself says that her mere presence made him feel insignificant, specifically like a chalk drawing.

We also know that the Shimmering Planes are outside all dimensions as when Stack! is asked about if he comes from "What comes next" he says he comes from a Higher dimension but "not that high"

Then you have Heaven and Hell, which are the very end of the verse, when John goes there to get Ross back there was no limiting factors anymore, as he described it, a scream with no mouth to limit it. There is no form or shape and we know there's actually things there as you work your way "to the Light" but even John couldn't see it, as he was too close to Life and Dead Boy told him to be grateful, so we can only imagine what he could see.

 

[Quasar002]

God can be considerd High 1-A with ease since he surpasses anything the Greenverse offers

Do you think about creating a profile for God?

Its really good supporting evidence but the best one is this one I believe

That one is very good as well.

All the higher dimensional beings like Psychonaughts are all 1-A.

The Higher dimensional ones were flat out described as being larger than the Space-Time continuum and that they were "more real" than everything else and saw people as chalk drawings and would even reduce them down to such when absorbing them accidently.

Oh yes. I remember it being said that he was too real for the limited reality.

You have the Outsiders too like the Primal, Purely Conceptual beings from outside of creation. The Primals when just possessing physical matter were too much for the mind to comprehend.

The transient beings that personify concepts, where would they be found?

Then you have entities from the Overworld. The Overworld was described the boundaries of the immaterial and was as close to Heaven and Hell as you could get. When Angels manifest, they come from the Overworld, and when Julian, Deadboy and John summoned the redeemed Pretty Poison (not her name anymore) it was described as "above" in every sense of the word and that it was "downloading" itself into a mortal frame so that it wouldn't blow the fuses of merely mortal minds.

When John is talking to Pretty Poison even he himself says that her mere presence made him feel insignificant, specifically like a chalk drawing.

We also know that the Shimmering Planes are outside all dimensions as when Stack! is asked about if he comes from "What comes next" he says he comes from a Higher dimension but "not that high"

Then you have Heaven and Hell, which are the very end of the verse, when John goes there to get Ross back there was no limiting factors anymore, as he described it, a scream with no mouth to limit it. There is no form or shape and we know there's actually things there as you work your way "to the Light" but even John couldn't see it, as he was too close to Life and Dead Boy told him to be grateful, so we can only imagine what he could see.

In relation to the material world, where would the basic/fundamental reality be located? According to what is mentioned in Hex and the City, the world is a great collective illusion, and Madman can see beyond this illusion (although he has gone insane) into the basic reality.

I’m not sure if this could scale things up, but if the material world is merely a collective illusion of the basic reality, couldn’t it be considered 1-A? There are also things like the Chronoflux, which was mentioned to exist outside of time and serves as one of the means of time travel. This is quite similar to the Time Vortex in Doctor Who. Although I do not know exactly whether the chronoflux is part of the material world, I do not remember anything that classifies it as a spiritual plane.

There are also some references to Ley Lines, which are called the "nervous system of the material world," and so on.

 

[Rutæhh]

Do you think about creating a profile for God?

maybe, God only has like two notable feats, using the word of creation and creating the Light. but for now im mostly concentrating on calcs, scaling and general abilities

The transient beings that personify concepts, where would they be found?

yeah they are beings born of the wild magic, the most powerful form of magic which can remake the material word as it wishes so imo 8d or 27d if u use the vampire overlord statement

 

[Quasar002]

maybe, God only has like two notable feats, using the word of creation and creating the Light. but for now im mostly concentrating on calcs, scaling and general abilities

I see. In other works by Simon Green, apart from Nightside, are there any other feats of God? I’m referring to those that are part of the same universe. Although I’m not very familiar with the canon, I know that some works are part of the same universe, as the page of the verse here on the Wiki explains.

yeah they are beings born of the wild magic, the most powerful form of magic which can remake the material word as it wishes so imo 8d or 27d if u use the vampire overlord statement

I don't know much about wild magic. From what I've read, it's not explained in great detail, but it seems to be extremely powerful from what you've said. Is this wild magic connected to Herne in his glory days before being diminished by touching the staff of the Lord of Thorns?

 

[Rutæhh]

I see. In other works by Simon Green, apart from Nightside, are there any other feats of God? I’m referring to those that are part of the same universe. Although I’m not very familiar with the canon, I know that some works are part of the same universe, as the page of the verse here on the Wiki explains.

no, God has never appeared and has zero feats other than creating the world

I don't know much about wild magic. From what I've read, it's not explained in great detail, but it seems to be extremely powerful from what you've said. Is this wild magic connected to Herne in his glory days before being diminished by touching the staff of the Lord of Thorns?

Yes its connected to Herne but only because the wild magic allows for the supernatural to exist like werewolves, dragons and Transient Beings

 

[Quasar002]

no, God has never appeared and has zero feats other than creating the world

And what about Jesus Christ? I’m not sure if Nightside follows the Christian Trinity, but I suppose it does. Does Jesus Christ have any interesting appearances or quotes?

Yes its connected to Herne but only because the wild magic allows for the supernatural to exist like werewolves, dragons and Transient Beings

I see. So wild magic would be like a kind of collective unconscious? In Paths Not Taken, when John and Suzie travel through time, they go back to a very distant point where all the supernatural beings had no meaning, until the rise of man who would shape them through imagination. From what John says, they were the first dreams and nightmares of the Earth that gained shape and form. I suppose this is what you’re talking about, right? Pretty cool.

 

[Rutæhh]

And what about Jesus Christ? I’m not sure if Nightside follows the Christian Trinity, but I suppose it does. Does Jesus Christ have any interesting appearances or quotes?

In Beyond the Blue moon, it said that Jesus created a box to contain the Light and that only the truly righteous can open it.

I see. So wild magic would be like a kind of collective unconscious? In Paths Not Taken, when John and Suzie travel through time, they go back to a very distant point where all the supernatural beings had no meaning, until the rise of man who would shape them through imagination. From what John says, they were the first dreams and nightmares of the Earth that gained shape and form. I suppose this is what you’re talking about, right? Pretty cool.

no i wouldnt call it an collective unconscious. The wild magic itself is just really old and powerful magic from the world of revivre.

 

[Udlmaster]

The transient beings that personify concepts, where would they be found?

Transient beings are Archetypal personifications that exist on all levels of the world since they are their concept.

They would likely be on the same level as the Primal.

In relation to the material world, where would the basic/fundamental reality be located?

Pure unfiltered reality is above the Dimensions of the World but before the Outside.

I’m not sure if this could scale things up, but if the material world is merely a collective illusion of the basic reality, couldn’t it be considered 1-A?

All of reality, sure. But Mad-Man sees more of reality than what the characters interact with

Although I do not know exactly whether the chronoflux is part of the material world, I do not remember anything that classifies it as a spiritual plane.

The Chronoflow is a part of reality's temporal aspects. Since Father Time is the transient being of Time itself, this furthers that it's another part of reality.

no, God has never appeared and has zero feats other than creating the world

There's mentions to him doing things in the books that come from the Bible, but for the most part, both the Adversary and God act through their intermediaries.

 

[Rutæhh]

Transient beings are Archetypal personifications that exist on all levels of the world since they are their concept.

They would likely be on the same level as the Primal.

isnt the primal an outsider? I dont think transient beings would be on their level since they are aspects of reality whilst outsider are above that.

also i would like to ask where u rate the material world (where most characters exist in). I personally think its 8d

 

[Udlmaster]

isnt the primal an outsider? I dont think transient beings would be on their level since they are aspects of reality whilst outsider are above that.

The Primal are Purely conceptual beings from before there was flesh to limit ideas.

As conceptual beings themselves, Transient beings are basically the same, but they play by the rules and don't try and break reality.

John calls them to "typical demons" himself, which also makes sense. If Transient Beings are the "good" example of Pure Concepts, then the Primal are the "Bad" ones.

also i would like to ask where u rate the material world (where most characters exist in). I personally think its 8d

If you mean all of Physical reality, then it's 1-A+

As when an Angel manifests from Outside, it says there's "more and more and more", basically implying it just goes on forever.

The Nightside considers going through at least 5 different Spatial dimensions as a theme park ride.

You also have Stack!

There was also the Vampires from the 27th dimension which may or may not exist because a Harley Davidson believes it does.

 

[Rutæhh]

Outsiders are Purely conceptual beings from before there was flesh to limit ideas.

As conceptual beings themselves, Transient beings are basically the same, but they play by the rules and don't try and break reality.

John calls them to "typical demons" himself, which also makes sense. If Transient Beings are the "good" example of Pure Concepts, then the Primal are the "Bad" ones.

they do normally exist outside of space-time so i can see ur point.

If you mean all of Physical reality, then it's 1-A+

no i just mean the normal part not including the higher levels. I would also like to ask if u think the chronoflow would be apart of this considering that more powerful creatures exist outside it

As when an Angel manifests from Outside, it says there's "more and more and more", basically implying it just goes on forever.

all of physical reality is unknown layers into 1-A right? we dont know how many higher

The Nightside considers going through at least 5 different Spatial dimensions as a theme park ride.

You also have Stack!

There was also the Vampires from the 27th dimension which may or may not exist because a Harley Davidson believes it does.

so standard human reality is 8d up to 27d?

i always thought that the higher dimensions existed beyond the material but are still considered part of reality.

 

[Udlmaster]

no i just mean the normal part not including the higher levels. I would also like to ask if u think the chronoflow would be apart of this considering that more powerful creatures exist outside it

The Chronoflow definitely isn't, the closest our heroes come to interacting with the Chronoflow is Walker's pocket watch and that's definitely not a normal artifact

no i just mean the normal part not including the higher levels.

Just normal human level then. It's their ability to interact with the true nature of reality that allows them to reach the higher tiers.

all of physical reality is unknown layers into 1-A right? we dont know how many higher

It's just 1-A+, the "flowers on petal, more and more and more..." is obviously a flowery way of saying infinite or forever.

so standard human reality is 8d up to 27d?

It's 3-D, Humans can't interact with the higher dimensions ordinarily. Only through Magick or being enhanced or so on can they achieve higher levels.

i always thought that the higher dimensions existed beyond the material but are still considered part of reality.

They're not considered a part of their reality, since John describes Sandra as banishing the lower dimensional Psychenauts from the material world.

 

[Quasar002]

Would the Outsiders have some kind of non-duality? They exist beyond the concepts of good and evil. And the meaning of the name "Outsiders" is because they exist outside anything humans can understand or accept. It is quite explicit that they are beyond all mundane concepts.

 

[Rutæhh]

Would the Outsiders have some kind of non-duality? They exist beyond the concepts of good and evil. And the meaning of the name "Outsiders" is because they exist outside anything humans can understand or accept. It is quite explicit that they are beyond all mundane concepts.

yes they can qualify for ND but not for transcending good and evil since these are just dichotomies.

 

[Quasar002]

yes they can qualify for ND but not for transcending good and evil since these are just dichotomies.

What type of ND would they have?

 

[Udlmaster]

Would the Outsiders have some kind of non-duality? They exist beyond the concepts of good and evil. And the meaning of the name "Outsiders" is because they exist outside anything humans can understand or accept. It is quite explicit that they are beyond all mundane concepts.

They'd have NEP, as they are pure thought and concept before flesh bound it.

 

[Quasar002]

They'd have NEP, as they are pure thought and concept before flesh bound it.

Would there be any character with TD3 in the verse?

 

[Udlmaster]

Would there be any character with TD3 in the verse?

Probably Lilith.

She could exist as nothing more than pure potential with no form or shape, same with any entity in Limbo

 

[Shmooply]

Forgot to watch this thread, it's so over.

 

[Quasar002]

Probably Lilith.

She could exist as nothing more than pure potential with no form or shape, same with any entity in Limbo

Speaking of Lilith, would Excalibur and Gaia be above her? I mean, Lilith said that Merlin, with all his power, might have a chance against her, and Excalibur has been shown to be just as powerful as the Antichrist Merlin.

And Gaia, from the world where Merlin accepted being the Antichrist, said this:

I know you because the Gaia of your world knows you. We are all aspects of the same person or personification. [...] "From the Dreamtime to the Chronoflow, you can always find some Door to open if you knock loud enough." [...] "It was the presence of Excalibur in this land that brought me back, you see, an Excalibur that was not mine."

Well, Excalibur is the will of Gaia in the world of men. And only an aspect of Gaia can create an Excalibur capable of fighting Merlin at his peak as the Antichrist.

I suppose each aspect of Gaia is as powerful as Lilith? And in her true form, where all aspects are united, she must be far above.

 

[Rutæhh]

Yes but this was when John amped the sword using souls to bring about the Light of Creation which can destroy everything and make it anew