• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Crisis Cosmology Revision (Final Thread)

Status
Not open for further replies.
TokiNoOuja said:
So ST Yahweh will be affected too right
Click to expand...
Swamp Thing didn't become “Yahweh” which I'm pretty sure outside Lucifer is a nonexistent term. He did, however, gain a state of consciousness where he touched every part of the Green in the worlds and stripped away his identity as Alec Holland. Which by the time Lucifer Vol 1 happened seemingly the notion was nonexistent.

Swamp Thing will receive an upgrade, if that's what you mean.
 
I will ignore the “Pre-Flashpoint,” “New-52,” and “Rebirth” keys for people like Darkseid and Orion since it is difficult to account for where they would accurately scale. While the profiles are open you're free to make changes and please check the updated blog on how to scale.

I recommend only scaling anywhere from 2-C to High 1-C. The higher-end to suggests High 1-B or Low 1-A needs to be explained very intricately.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I will ignore the “Pre-Flashpoint,” “New-52,” and “Rebirth” keys for people like Darkseid and Orion since it is difficult to account for where they would accurately scale. While the profiles are open you're free to make changes and please check the updated blog on how to scale.

I recommend only scaling anywhere from 2-C to High 1-C. The higher-end to suggests High 1-B or Low 1-A needs to be explained very intricately.
Click to expand...
What about Rebirth Flash? He has a better connection to the Speed Force than before.
 
Should we use scans from Swamp Thing Vol 2 62 where Metron and Swamp Thing venture beyond the Source Wall? I know it's not directly stated, but I really think that both of them ventured into the Greater Omniverse: the eternal and infinite realm of the Source.

Also. Don't forget the scan of Creation being a reverie dreamed by the Source.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Swamp Thing didn't become “Yahweh” which I'm pretty sure outside Lucifer is a nonexistent term. He did, however, gain a state of consciousness where he touched every part of the Green in the worlds and stripped away his identity as Alec Holland. Which by the time Lucifer Vol 1 happened seemingly the notion was nonexistent.

Swamp Thing will receive an upgrade, if that's what you mean
Click to expand...
But didnt the Voice stated something like Swamp Thing became so powerful that he's becoming a major threat to Yahweh? anyway im sure outside of Lucifer/Endless series,Swamp Thing also used the name Yahweh starting from mid to eos
 
Elizio33 said:
Should we use scans from Swamp Thing Vol 2 62 where Metron and Swamp Thing venture beyond the Source Wall? I know it's not directly stated, but I really think that both of them ventured into the Greater Omniverse: the eternal and infinite realm of the Source.

Also. Don't forget the scan of Creation being a reverie dreamed by the Source.
Click to expand...
Profiles is still open. You can add them.
 
TokiNoOuja said:
But didnt the Voice stated something like Swamp Thing became so powerful that he's becoming a major threat to Yahweh? anyway im sure outside of Lucifer/Endless series,Swamp Thing also used the name Yahweh starting from mid to eos
Click to expand...
Even if it did, it’s not the same being(which it didn’t mention such names). The Sandman never even used the word “Yahweh.” That’s how specific the term was.

The Voice didn’t state anything as I recall, just people who were involved with seeing Swamp Thing ascend. Even then it is not very clear, if the Voice wanted to stay in its position then I'd think it would have. Especially since feats from God Swamp Thing would barely touch higher tiers.
 
Last edited:
The creation origins for the Crisis Cosmology:

"In the beginning, before the before, the Creator was everything. Nothing existed but his own quintessential perfection. As the creation of existence required space, the Creator contracted and withdrew into the perfect center of his own infinite circle (Ain Soph). He then entered the void with his power and name.

When he manifested a shape, he brought forth the Light/Source in the void (Great Darkness) from the words: “Let there be light!” At first being only an invisible twinkle in the infinite immensity of the Great Darkness, the Light/Source grew. From the Light's otherness, the Great Darkness witnessed its first knowledge of self and screamed as much in pain as in relief before fleeing. This dual interaction caused a crack in the Source that birthed great energies from its being. The Source then generated super-celestial beings — the Hands — to shape these energies into bold new multiversal life systems.

One of these super-celestial beings was Perpetua. She made her Multiverse from the Source's energies and created her children — the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger — to manage the different aspects of her new reality. At that point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was supposed to die or move to create another Multiverse, but she defied her function. She then experimented on earthlings and martians, merging them into the Apex Predators. Her plan was to build an army to counter whatever the Source might send to force her to gave up her control over her Multiverse, which she attempted to transform into a viscous, predatory configuration of reality. Her sons learned of her treachery and alerted her kind of her doings, whose response was to send the Cosmic Raptor to seal Perpetua into the Source Wall and her Multiverse was restarted from the beginning of time and without her taints.

Billions of years after Perpetua's defeat, Maltusian scientist Krona made a breakthrough and attempted to uncover the origins of creation. His manipulations unwittingly unleashed a Multiverse of infinite universes."
 
Last edited:
Elizio33 said:
The creation origins for the Crisis Cosmology:

"In the beginning, before the before, the Creator was everything. Nothing existed but his own quintessential perfection. As the creation of existence required space, the Creator contracted and withdrew into the perfect center of his own infinite circle (Ain Soph). He then created the void and entered it with his power and name.

When he manifested a shape, he brought forth the Light/Source in the void (Great Darkness) from the words: “Let there be light!” At first being only an invisible twinkle in the infinite immensity of the Great Darkness, the Light/Source grew and from the otherness of the Light, the Great Darkness witnessed its first knowledge of self and screamed as much in pain as in relief before fleeing. This dual interaction caused a crack in the Source that birthed great energies from its being. The Source then generated super-celestial beings — the Hands — to shape these energies into bold new multiversal life systems.

One of these super-celestial beings was Perpetua. She made her Multiverse from the Source's energies and created her children — the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger — to manage the different aspects of her new reality. At that point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was supposed to die or move to create another Multiverse, but she defied her function. She then experimented on earthlings and martians, merging them into the Apex Predators. Her plan was to build an army to counter whatever the Source might send to force her to gave up her control over her Multiverse, which she attempted to transform into a viscous, predatory configuration of reality. Her sons learned of her treachery and alerted her kind of her doings, whose response was to send the Cosmic Raptor to seal Perpetua into the Source Wall and her Multiverse was restarted from the beginning of time and without her taints.

Billions of years after Perpetua's defeat, Maltusian scientist Krona made a breakthrough and attempted to uncover the origins of creation. His manipulations unwittingly unleashed a Multiverse of infinite universes."
Click to expand...
I agree except the Void/Darkness is uncreated.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I agree except the Void/Darkness is uncreated.
Click to expand...
It has been said that God created the emptiness and entered it with his power and name, but I suppose the term "created" is not correct here. I should say that he manifested himself as the void since even the Great Darkness is an aspect of God and part of his plan. After all, the DC God has many aspects and emanations.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Even if it did, it’s not the same being(which it didn’t mention such names). The Sandman never even used the word “Yahweh.” That’s how specific the term was.

The Voice didn’t state anything as I recall, just people who were involved with seeing Swamp Thing ascend. Even then it is not very clear, if the Voice wanted to stay in its position then I'd think it would have. Especially since feats from God Swamp Thing would barely touch higher tiers.
Click to expand...
I try to re-read again

Also God ST stated could replace God from his Throne,so this God is the Presence?
 
Elizio33 said:
The creation origins for the Crisis Cosmology:

"In the beginning, before the before, the Creator was everything. Nothing existed but his own quintessential perfection. As the creation of existence required space, the Creator contracted and withdrew into the perfect center of his own infinite circle (Ain Soph). He then created the void and entered it with his power and name.

When he manifested a shape, he brought forth the Light/Source in the void (Great Darkness) from the words: “Let there be light!” At first being only an invisible twinkle in the infinite immensity of the Great Darkness, the Light/Source grew and from the otherness of the Light, the Great Darkness witnessed its first knowledge of self and screamed as much in pain as in relief before fleeing. This dual interaction caused a crack in the Source that birthed great energies from its being. The Source then generated super-celestial beings — the Hands — to shape these energies into bold new multiversal life systems.

One of these super-celestial beings was Perpetua. She made her Multiverse from the Source's energies and created her children — the Monitor, the Anti-Monitor, and the World Forger — to manage the different aspects of her new reality. At that point, Perpetua had fulfilled her duty and was supposed to die or move to create another Multiverse, but she defied her function. She then experimented on earthlings and martians, merging them into the Apex Predators. Her plan was to build an army to counter whatever the Source might send to force her to gave up her control over her Multiverse, which she attempted to transform into a viscous, predatory configuration of reality. Her sons learned of her treachery and alerted her kind of her doings, whose response was to send the Cosmic Raptor to seal Perpetua into the Source Wall and her Multiverse was restarted from the beginning of time and without her taints.

Billions of years after Perpetua's defeat, Maltusian scientist Krona made a breakthrough and attempted to uncover the origins of creation. His manipulations unwittingly unleashed a Multiverse of infinite universes."
Click to expand...
Should this be added to our DC Comics Cosmology page? 🙏
 
Elizio33 said:
It has been said that God created the emptiness and entered it with his power and name, but I suppose the term "created" is not correct here. I should say that he manifested himself as the void since even the Great Darkness is an aspect of God and part of his plan. After all, the DC God has many aspects and emanations.
Click to expand...
The Darkness more so is that “Void,” to go beyond the Darkness as in “pure being” is God. The Darkness being an aspect is answered by that notion. The Void is connected to God, but that's more so an aspect of getting to him, dissolving individuality and plurality in the Void is how to connect to God.
 
Agree
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
This is the last thread I promise. So, hopefully, the admins forgive me for making so many threads, but I had to spread the information since DC is split. Thus, I have a good reason for making these threads and this is an upgrade thread for the Crisis Cosmology.

Light of Creation Upgrade:​

The Light of Creation also known as: Overvoid, Source, and Creation will be upgraded to High 1-A.

As recently the Flash series has confirmed the Source is the Light itself. Not to mention the plane of existence where the Light/Source resides is a place that is not a place meaning it’s in some place that’s the Multiverse while simultaneously sustaining it from wherever non-place is.

Now, why does this matter? Well, it was explained throughout the comics that all levels of reality work on emanation. The source of it all birthing Time that runs throughout the Multiverse in which “Time” is everything which means the extent of this “Time” reaches every Multiverse which are susceptible to the Deep Change. (The Flash Vol.6 #11) Plus, it births the Speedforce, a primordial energy that sustains and nurture all time and space which it also pemeates. (Flash: Rebirth Vol.1 #4 & Flash Vol.1 #760)

Now the Source is possibly the source of the Deep Change which emanated time and the forces of Creation.


The Source exist outside of time(acasual and atemporal), where all reality(the Multiverse) is just a dream from it, and exists in an unimaginable now by itself(beyond both the Multiversal and Omniversal hierarchy).

R>F:​

It was shown several times that Wally West could breach the walls of reality and go outside the pages of comics: here. The Animal Man has shown this countless times to as reality is just a hallucination and nothing is ever real to the higher worlds. (Animal Man Vol.1 #19) This has been stated several times to be endless. (Animal Man Vol.1 #22 & #23)

In the Cosmology blog and in several threads. It has been accepted the Garden of Shadows has R>F over Creation. So the Source see it as unreality in the same vein that the Speedforce sees all things below it as fictional.

High 1-A is defined exactly as that:

Here are more examples of R>F and some BDE:
1 (Animal Man Vol.1 #53)
2 (Animal Man Vol.1 #54)
3 (Animal Man Vol.1 #86)
4 (Genesis Vol.1 #1)
5 (Jack Kirby’s Fourth World Vol.1 #2)
6 (Jack Kirby’s Fourth World Vol.1 #18)

The Great Darkness Upgrade:​

The Great Darkness is the infinite nothingness that preceded the Light of Creation as an invisible twinkle in its endless canvas. Nothingness is uncreated, can not be predated, and is the source of the Source of All Things.

So its the space from which all things can come and embodies what the Creator could contain. The Darkness is eternal, infinite, and outside all things would make it High 1-A+(type 2)

The Overvoid exists in the same plane as the Source(which already has been accepted in the blog)

The Flash series said that all of Creation is just a slumber of the Source and it awaken to redo all the chaos in Creation with the help of the Flash family. Overvoid is said to be pure consciousness and the mind of the “Monitor.”

Again, the Overvoid like the Source is where all things are possible as said earlier.

In the interview with Scott Snyder. It was notioned a hierarchy of beings goes up until the Source. Obviously, this is supported as both Perpetua and the Cosmic Raptor have superiors. (Justice League Vol.4 #22)

This has been mentioned several times where the universes are quantumly connected in nature. Such examples are infinite possibility, Schrödinger’s Cat Theory, and quantum physics:
1 (Before Watchmen: Doctor Manhattan Vol.1 #1)
2 (Animal Man Vol.1 #32)
3 (Adventure of Supersons Vol.1 #1)
4 (Animal Man Vol.1 #18)

Low 1-A Material Realm:​

While we discuss the String-Theory conception of the 11-D brane cosmology. At the edge of the limitless Universe is the accumulation of time and space. Even the Absolute Universe exists outside time and space. This is considering each world/dimension can be higher than the other so special cases like the Absolute Universe aren't the only example. (Action Comics Vol.1 #1015) This is obvious since Earth-Omega itself also has no dimensional vibrancy. (Infinite Frontier Vol.1 #1) Which the Universe itself comprising of time and space can be threatened. (Superman Vol.6 #14) Wonderland is the utmost furthest part of the worlds of universes standing as the ultimate rim that envelopes all things. There is a very limit of time and space with only the Abyss and the metaphysical ahead of it. Reality itself being infinite in both complexity and in life with each level being more profound in nature. (Animal Man Vol.1 #6) The Green itself touches all these realms and spaces. (Hellblazer Vol.1 #193) Which the Rot itself also has layers. (Swamp Thing Vol.5 #12) There are a possible myriads of dimensions beyond space-time as the elemental realms touch on higher dimensions which stretches to possible infinity(possibly infinite spatial dimensions) (Animal Man Vol.1 #83)

All worlds are interconnected as the whole as suggest by Bohm’s Implicate Theory where all metaphors and words are jumbled together without knowing who dreams who. (Animal Man Vol.1 #12) Expressing that the worlds are reflections of each other, more so unfolding of time and worlds on each level. (Animal Man Vol.1 #15)

The bleed space is an interdimensional Void, which means it lacks physical composition is said to exist outside of physical reality. (Lazarus Planet: We Were Once Gods Vol.1 #1) It was also described as a transdimensional energy that premeates and hit all infinity of universes. (Batman/Superman: World’s Finest Vol.1 #23) The Bleed connecting through infinite worlds, crises, and possibilities. (Batman Vol.3 #134)

The Phantom Zone outside the worlds is a timeless dimension of vast near-infinite nothingness (Action Comics Vol.1 #984) as a sort of void between worlds. This is why physical form and time passage really don't matter. (Batman/Santa Claus: Silent Knight Vol.1 #4)

Mister Mind feeding of the timestream was corrupting time and space. (Booster Gold Vol.2 #1) A more abstract realm called Vashing Point exists outside the timestream which itself means it exists beyond time and space. (Booster Gold: Futures End Vol.1 #1) Timepoint exists outside the Speedforce which connect through all time and space. (The Flash Vol.1 #796)

1-A Higher Realms and 1-A+ Totality of Creation:​

As stated several times that planes beyond corporeal reality are said to exist outside time and space such as the Green.(Justice League Dark Vol.2 #25) As such planes beyond the physical use entire concepts of time and space where they exist in place of no place and time of no time. (Infinite Frontier Vol.1 #0) Beings in these higher realm exist beyond the bounds of time and space where they are seemingly infinite in lower planes. (JLA Vol.1 #29) Behind the mortal plane is a vast absence manifested as a Great White Light beyond the recursion of worlds. (Animal Man Vol.1 #14) The Great White Light being the buffer zone between our primary reality and higher reality. (Animal Man Vol.1 #24) A transcendental vision of the infinite, of worlds beyond the real(most likely referring to Heaven) (Doom Patrol Vol.2 #53)

As such Life itself is connected to a morphogenetic field or the Red is described as sort like Plato's archetypal world. (Animal Man Vol.1 #18) Being one with the Red and serving as the role of Animal Master is so ancient it goes to the beginning of time and even predates Antagon. Where the M-Field is timeless and spaceless serving in the center of the vastness of the worlds and life.(Animal Man Vol.1 #49) The M-Field/The Source of life as Animal Masters exist in a place of no time and no space. Where all the worlds of dream and imagination existing in the mind that's everywhere and nowhere is part of the Source. (Animal Man Vol.1 #50) The Red at its very core is a placeless place without time or space. (Animal Man Vol.1 #50) The lifeweb is interconnected with the Red and all life as symbolized from each of its bliion branches being a form of life. It's distinct from the world of flesh and if connected to a complex tree of life that divides infinitely and grows from the primordial soup of Creation. (Animal Man Vol.1 #55) The Red is the web of life that connects everything in the planet in both their birth and death. (Animal Man Vol.1 #73) The Lifeweb stretches infinitely to higher dimensions. (Animal Man Vol.1 #80) The Web of Life connects through the Kingdoms of spirit, mind, and imagination. (Animal Man Vol.1 #87). The World Soul spreads throughout all consciousness and eternity. Endlessly growing and premeating the implicate folding of worlds. (Animal Man Vol.1 #87)

The Cosmology blog already highlights several examples of these realms not being “places” but ideas that are not tied to time, this is considering there are infinite planes. (The Hellblazer Vol.1 #3) In several of these planes they not only support the worlds below them but also exist and cut in between them. Now given what we said of emanation it is possible for them to have R>F difference with the prime example being the Garden but there's also many forces and places in the same ontological existence as the Speed Force. Stated that reality again has an endless flow of emanation. (The Flash Vol.6 #11) In the Dreaming or the Dream Universe exists worlds within worlds seen as dreams within dreams. (Justice League America Vol.1 #74) Gods such as Auteru.io was able to use ideas from Earth-0 to create an endless amount of unreal worlds from a superseding reality called an archive of worlds.

Heaven has more of everything and is considered a higher order of reality. (JLA Vol.1 #6) Time doesn't exist in Heaven since it is a realm beyond time and space. God in Heaven sees his creations as simple artwork and drawings that he drew and emanate. Where reality is called secondary as Heaven transcends it. (Animal Man Vol.1 #5) As such Heaven is a higher order in reality where its connects and sustains the world of forms. Everything itself being a dream within a dream. (Animal Man Vol.1 #19) Heaven also is the part in a perfect axis of symmetry. (JLA: Paradise Lost Vol.1 #1)

The Fifth Dimension properties see all things as little boxes of which transcending those little boxes has dominion over all time and space. (Batman/Superman Vol.2 #22) Imps having the ability to affect the infinite multiverse and rewrite reality endlessly. (Action Comics Vol.1 #1000) They have the ability to alter time and matter as well as the laws of physics just by thinking. They can also messes with the non-material realms such as the Rock of Eternity and Heaven and distort visions of time. (JLA Vol.1 #28) The Fifth Dimension completely transcends the lower plane where they can freely travel through Time and Hypertime. (JLA Vol.1 #30) The Fifth Dimension completely sees the plane below them as fictional. (JLA Vol.1 #31) Seeing as it beyond any quantitative measure as well as time and space. (Action Comics Vol.2 #15)

All of Creation is represented through an endless ladder with parts of it deeper than any time and space with an endless pool of nothing beneath it. Areas where all dreams and imagination can come real and some parts even beyond the stairs. (Are you afraid of Darkseid Vol.1 #1) At the very bottom where the last reaches of the elemental forces happen is a timeless Void. (Animal Man Vol.2 #18)

God:​

The Creator or the supreme essence of perfection works through emanation and aspects. As such the Soul of the World, the M-Field, Spider Queen, and all of Creation is just an imagination of God, all part of its body and mind. (Animal Man Vol.1 #89) When it manifested shape, it brought the Light/Source from the words “fiat lux” which in English is said to be “let there be light.” When he said it cast a shadow, in Doom Patrol it was known as the Decreator and in JLA it was called Mageddon.

Conclusion:​

  • Everything in Creation is an emanation. The higher realms is considered higher than the mundane reality.
  • The Hands and the Arc Angles, particularly, the latter is the first emanation of the Deep Change, where they created 1-A realm such as the Garden of Shadows. The former said to exists in as unseen beings working up a hierarchy beyond the Multiversal one.
  • The Source sees all that above as just a dream in the same vein the Garden sees the Multiverse as fictional as well as the Arc Angles see it as fictional. Especially with the amount of times, Wally goes R>F. Baseline High 1-A for the Source.
  • The Great Darkness an eternal nothing preceding the Light which views the Multiverse as a dream, where the Light itself is nothing but an invisible twinkle in its endless canvas. More importantly represented as the space from which the Creator could make all things possible. So High 1-A+(type 2).
  • 1-A to the higher realms because why not? It's pretty obvious. Certain higher realms will get a 1-A+.
  • Low 1-A Material Plane because at its furthest edges contains limitless time and space. Some Universe completely lacking time and space composition. The entirety of worlds are reflections of each other that's essentially a higher dream to the lower parts folding against their own reflection. This indicates a quantitative hierarchy that transcends each world where it seems like a dream or unreal to the higher folding of worlds, High 1-B for any destruction involving the hierarchies of worlds, and Low 1-A for the totality of the material/physical plane of existence. 1-A/1-A+ is possible but the dream within dream statement is quite vague though it was brought up often. A voting consensus can be placed here for 1-A/1-A+ or not.

Scaling:​

Low 1-A material plane: Any being that can completely destroy the entire structure and all the universes. If not, they'll just stay High 1-C for partial destruction.

1-A realms and beings: Hecate, Upside Downman, Lords of Chaos and Order, Mister Mxyzptlk, Bat-Mite, Quintessence, Hell Lords, Angels, Garden of Shadows, Empty Hand, Darkseid, and servants of the Darkness.

1-A+ realms and beings: Dreaming, Dark Multiverse, Divine Conntinnum, 5th Dimension, and 6th Dimension, Speedforce. Anyone who scales to those, the Monitors Brothers. Spectre, Dream, and Barbatos get a possibly 1-A+.

High 1-A realms and beings: The Light of Creation(Overvoid, Source, and Presence), the Unseen Council/Hands get this as well as the Arc Angles.

High 1-A+(type 2) realm and being: The Great Darkness

0: The Creator(Presence’s true form)

Voting:​

Agree: @DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @Elizio33

Disagree:

​

Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Alemao7
  • Locked
DC Comics Cosmology Addition: The Emotional Spectrum
Replies
12
Views
996
Alemao7
Alemao7
VeryGoofyToddler2
  • Locked
Weird Cosmology of DC Fix
2 3
Replies
118
Views
11K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Tomfer
Adamantium Downgrade (Marvel Comics)
Replies
39
Views
3K
Eseseso
Eseseso
KirbyFan03
Additional 1-A godsphere arguments (possibly)
Replies
26
Views
3K
Antvasima
Antvasima
RigelBR7
DC Pre Crisis Cosmology
Replies
21
Views
4K
TokiNoOuja
TokiNoOuja
Back
Top