Shadow of the Rabbit Goddess

[Ghostimuscrime]

this guy…

 

[MinatoSparkle]

They're not a mod, clearly

 

[Samlex1234]

They're not a mod, clearly

I replied to him because I thought he was talking to me. “Questionable choice of words“

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I thought that was just about the OP but

 

[Samlex1234]

I thought that was just about the OP but

You are right most likely I just read that wrongly I guess.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I thought it sounded cool :/

Cool—for a specific set of audience and I'm not remotely within that category.

 

[Greatsage13th]

You are right most likely I just read that wrongly I guess.

I...did not sling iron at ya, but you decided to 'proportionally' bombard me with an artilleries' worth of aggressive text.

 

[Testarossa002]

Your agreeing would mean you are agreeing with the OP’s argument, if you disagree with the OP’s argument then you have to give a reason why you do especially if you are a mod.

He already gave his refutation. Whether you think its valid or not doesn't really matter
That being said

Snip

Could you give a summary of your refutations? So it'll be easier for other staffs to see. It's currently spread out in multiple posts

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

He already gave his refutation. Whether you think its valid or not doesn't really matter
That being said

Could you give a summary of your refutations? So it'll be easier for other staffs to see. It's currently spread out in multiple posts

its short so I’ll do that

D)his first response

G)My response to that

D)Among the refutations he only challenges the dojutsu amp

G) I counter that and try to find common ground


The other things can be ignored because he either drops arguing them or is responding to the derailers

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Okay I’ve thought up of another idea of scaling people to this value and I believe it is a far better argument than anything I’ve shown before here so buckle up, this does not debunk the things I said before but it adds a further layer of protection to the meta I have presented

Spoiler

First we need to establish some factual info

1. The ETSO is a larger sized TSO, this is stated directly in the Databooks as well as a fact that the Wiki strictly abides by. There is absolutely no difference in them outside the larger size and there is no translation error whatsoever
2. Kaguya’s EPS value comes from Expansive Truth Seeker Orb as outlined in the original blog where it got accepted as combat applicable output, the regular truth seeker orbs at the very least will be this strong because it is a TSO, she’s just pumping small star levels every second to increase its size until it becomes a larger sized TSO that calcs to 4B in the exact same way that Naruto makes a rasengan and then pours in chakra into them until it becomes a massive rasengan so [TSO = Low 4C, ETSO = 4B]

Now her EGVF would scale above the TSO, why? Because Kaguya prefers to use them as opposed to TSO, till this point of the story we have seen six paths villains Obito and Madara spam the *** out of them and make very very creative uses of these but kaguya prefers EGVF and Ashbones, because the fists add more APand Ash bones grant better dura neg. This makes sense because if you kept up with this thread or read the Databook entry you’d at least know the EGVF specialise in AP and Durability, they have no other functions other than being really really powerful stat wise, she’s not hitting vitals, there’s no hax no nothing whatsoever, meanwhile the chakra that is used to power a TSO goes to different sections

• Attack Potency
• Existence Erasure
• Chakra Natures that lead to various side effects

Where as instead of splitting up the chakra the EGVF can redirect ALL the chakra into brute strength to amplify attack potency to the highest possible level allowing her to launch powerful fists and bombarding her foes into oblivion

I said this in response to Damage but I’ll repeat here, the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya, it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya. Now this is where @Godernet CRT comes in, in this CRT it was accepted that Kaguya’s EGVF will scale above all prior jutsu in this wiki which includes the Base Truth Seeker Orb and whatever Kaguya is able to do via them

Now, Going with this route would make the proposals look like this

Small Star Level with Truth Seeker Orbs, far higher with Yasogami Kuugeki (EGVF) [Kaguya’s normal TSO would be having this much energy] upto Solar System Level overtime with expansive TSO [Recreates a dimension bla bla]

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think the justification could be a bit more descriptive but the argument is creative and seems solid at a glance

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think the justification could be a bit more descriptive but the argument is creative and seems solid at a glance

I’m open to suggestions

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Small Star Level with Truth-Seeker Orbs (would be putting at least this much energy into her ETSO per second, with the ETSO simply being an enlarged version of the regular TSOs), far higher with Yasogami Kuugeki (Should be far superior to her casual per-second TSO output, as this is a jutsu only she can use due to her supernatural chakra, whereas many people like Naruto and Madara can freely use TSOs) up to Solar System Level overtime with Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb (Recreates a dimension bla bla)

 

[DavidTPPM]

Okay I’ve thought up of another idea of scaling people to this value and I believe it is a far better argument than anything I’ve shown before here so buckle up, this does not debunk the things I said before but it adds a further layer of protection to the meta I have presented

Spoiler

First we need to establish some factual info

1. The ETSO is a larger sized TSO, this is stated directly in the Databooks as well as a fact that the Wiki strictly abides by. There is absolutely no difference in them outside the larger size and there is no translation error whatsoever
2. Kaguya’s EPS value comes from Expansive Truth Seeker Orb as outlined in the original blog where it got accepted as combat applicable output, the regular truth seeker orbs at the very least will be this strong because it is a TSO, she’s just pumping small star levels every second to increase its size until it becomes a larger sized TSO that calcs to 4B in the exact same way that Naruto makes a rasengan and then pours in chakra into them until it becomes a massive rasengan so [TSO = Low 4C, ETSO = 4B]

Now her EGVF would scale above the TSO, why? Because Kaguya prefers to use them as opposed to TSO, till this point of the story we have seen six paths villains Obito and Madara spam the *** out of them and make very very creative uses of these but kaguya prefers EGVF and Ashbones, because the fists add more APand Ash bones grant better dura neg. This makes sense because if you kept up with this thread or read the Databook entry you’d at least know the EGVF specialise in AP and Durability, they have no other functions other than being really really powerful stat wise, she’s not hitting vitals, there’s no hax no nothing whatsoever, meanwhile the chakra that is used to power a TSO goes to different sections

• Attack Potency
• Existence Erasure
• Chakra Natures that lead to various side effects

Where as instead of splitting up the chakra the EGVF can redirect ALL the chakra into brute strength to amplify attack potency to the highest possible level allowing her to launch powerful fists and bombarding her foes into oblivion

I said this in response to Damage but I’ll repeat here, the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya, it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya. Now this is where @Godernet CRT comes in, in this CRT it was accepted that Kaguya’s EGVF will scale above all prior jutsu in this wiki which includes the Base Truth Seeker Orb and whatever Kaguya is able to do via them

Now, Going with this route would make the proposals look like this


Bunny Milf =

Not reading all that
Looks good imo. Even the basic air palm is already designed to hit with "tremendous force" and to "make up for weakness in taijutsu" so the far superior version of that jutsu being essentially the pinnacle of Kaguyas energy output makes sense

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Small Star Level with Truth-Seeker Orbs (would be putting at least this much energy into her ETSO per second, with the ETSO simply being an enlarged version of the regular TSOs), far higher with Yasogami Kuugeki (Should be far superior to her casual per-second TSO output, as this is a jutsu only she can use due to her supernatural chakra, whereas many people like Naruto and Madara can freely use TSOs) up to Solar System Level overtime with Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb (Recreates a dimension bla bla)

Great


As for YK I think it’s better to be less nerdy (Far superior to any offensive jutsu as it can only be accessed exclusively thanks to the supernatural chakra that kaguya dominates)
So I’d say

Small Star Level with Truth-Seeker Orbs (Would be putting at least this much energy into her ETSO per second, with the ETSO simply being an enlarged version of the regular TSOs), far higher with Yasogami Kuugeki (Far superior to any offensive jutsu as it can only be accessed exclusively thanks to the supernatural chakra that kaguya dominates) up to Solar System Level overtime with Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb (bla)

Not reading all that

wbk nard fans cant read

Looks good imo. Even the basic air palm is already designed to hit with "tremendous force" and to "make up for weakness in taijutsu" so the far superior version of that jutsu being essentially the pinnacle of Kaguyas energy output makes sense

you get it

 

[Nierre]

Okay I’ve thought up of another idea of scaling people to this value and I believe it is a far better argument than anything I’ve shown before here so buckle up, this does not debunk the things I said before but it adds a further layer of protection to the meta I have presented

Spoiler

First we need to establish some factual info

1. The ETSO is a larger sized TSO, this is stated directly in the Databooks as well as a fact that the Wiki strictly abides by. There is absolutely no difference in them outside the larger size and there is no translation error whatsoever
2. Kaguya’s EPS value comes from Expansive Truth Seeker Orb as outlined in the original blog where it got accepted as combat applicable output, the regular truth seeker orbs at the very least will be this strong because it is a TSO, she’s just pumping small star levels every second to increase its size until it becomes a larger sized TSO that calcs to 4B in the exact same way that Naruto makes a rasengan and then pours in chakra into them until it becomes a massive rasengan so [TSO = Low 4C, ETSO = 4B]

Now her EGVF would scale above the TSO, why? Because Kaguya prefers to use them as opposed to TSO, till this point of the story we have seen six paths villains Obito and Madara spam the *** out of them and make very very creative uses of these but kaguya prefers EGVF and Ashbones, because the fists add more APand Ash bones grant better dura neg. This makes sense because if you kept up with this thread or read the Databook entry you’d at least know the EGVF specialise in AP and Durability, they have no other functions other than being really really powerful stat wise, she’s not hitting vitals, there’s no hax no nothing whatsoever, meanwhile the chakra that is used to power a TSO goes to different sections

• Attack Potency
• Existence Erasure
• Chakra Natures that lead to various side effects

Where as instead of splitting up the chakra the EGVF can redirect ALL the chakra into brute strength to amplify attack potency to the highest possible level allowing her to launch powerful fists and bombarding her foes into oblivion

I said this in response to Damage but I’ll repeat here, the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya, it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya. Now this is where @Godernet CRT comes in, in this CRT it was accepted that Kaguya’s EGVF will scale above all prior jutsu in this wiki which includes the Base Truth Seeker Orb and whatever Kaguya is able to do via them

Now, Going with this route would make the proposals look like this

This should've been the OP

definitely agree with this.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

This should've been the OP

definitely agree with this.

AWESOME

btw would you be kind enough to tag some staff to look at this
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1336795238173376602/xdXQRSrV.png?ex=67a51b15&is=67a3c995&hm=2cd6ce6ea1eaf07945a9002b63861b0fb6ec1b8ce9b71b4fd64adf103f08388f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=499&height=488

 

[Damage3245]

I'll get up a response to the new arguments later tonight since it does merit a response even if I don't think either of us are likely to change our stances.

 

[Samlex1234]

I'll get up a response to the new arguments later tonight since it does merit a response even if I don't think either of us are likely to change our stances.

No need for a response then.

 

[Nierre]

AWESOME

btw would you be kind enough to tag some staff to look at this
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1068381282976935936/1336795238173376602/xdXQRSrV.png?ex=67a51b15&is=67a3c995&hm=2cd6ce6ea1eaf07945a9002b63861b0fb6ec1b8ce9b71b4fd64adf103f08388f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=499&height=488

I'll tag them after Damage's response so they can look at both arguments

 

[Damage3245]

Now her EGVF would scale above the TSO, why? Because Kaguya prefers to use them as opposed to TSO, till this point of the story we have seen six paths villains Obito and Madara spam the *** out of them and make very very creative uses of these but kaguya prefers EGVF and Ashbones, because the fists add more APand Ash bones grant better dura neg.

The presupposition that Kaguya using the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist in lieu of attacks with Truth-Seeker Orbs simply because the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is more powerful is not something I think is a warranted assumption.

Characters don't always use a jutsu just because it is the most powerful thing in their arsenal available.

Firstly, while Kaguya does show a preference for using Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist and All-Killing Ash Bones, she has also used other combat abilities too such as attacking with needles from her hair, and controlling nature to attack Naruto. I wouldn't automatically assume that these jutsu are more powerful than any other theoretical jutsu she could've used just because she chose to attack with them. Situationally, certain jutsu just be more more optimal to use without considering power, or could just be more suited to the user's fighting style.

Secondly, I'm not 100% sure that Kaguya can even make ordinary Truth-Seeker Orbs on a whim. From what we've observed in users of Truth-Seeker Orbs, such as Obito, Madara or Naruto, as soon as they attain the state of having Six Paths Senjutsu then they automatically gain the Truth-Seeker Orbs without thinking about it. However they can gradually lose their Truth-Seeker Orbs. Over the course of his fighting, Madara was reduced down to a single Truth-Seeker Orb for a good portion of the battle by Minato teleporting several away yet he never re-created more to replace the ones he lost despite how useful they are for him. Naruto likewise was reduced down to three Truth-Seeker Orbs by the time of his final duel with Sasuke and he seemingly lost those three in his exchange with Sasuke. After losing those three Naruto never used Truth-Seeker Orbs against in Boruto / the New Era. So it seems like even the characters who've mastered using Truth-Seeker Orbs in combat cannot replenish them once they've lost them. Now - we know that Kaguya can of course make an Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb - something that she only does once she's absorbed a vast quantity of Chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Could she have made it beforehand if she desired? Possibly. Can she make regular Truth-Seeker Orbs any time she wants? That remains to be seen; she's never been seen using them in combat which might simply mean she can't use them in combat. After all no other Otsutsuki clan members we've seen since Toneri have been able to either.

Thirdly, it's possible that Kaguya deemed that it wouldn't have done much good anyway. She could be aware of how Naruto kicked away a Truth-Seeker Orb without being erased by it earlier. Without the erasing component, simply slamming a Truth-Seeker Orb against Naruto may have been less effective than an Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist punch, but that doesn't say anything specific about the different chakra amounts used to create either of them. When she does eventually decide to use the Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb, she could've just as easily spammed out Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists instead to finish off Naruto and Sasuke, but she doesn't. She goes for the option of destroying the whole dimension they're in and recreating it. If her fighting style preference was Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists > Truth-Seeker Orbs always, then it seems a little odd that her ultimate move against them is to go for the Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb if the most powerful attack at her disposal was a massively amped up barrage of Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists.

This makes sense because if you kept up with this thread or read the Databook entry you’d at least know the EGVF specialise in AP and Durability, they have no other functions other than being really really powerful stat wise, she’s not hitting vitals, there’s no hax no nothing whatsoever, meanwhile the chakra that is used to power a TSO goes to different sections

• Attack Potency
• Existence Erasure
• Chakra Natures that lead to various side effects

Where as instead of splitting up the chakra the EGVF can redirect ALL the chakra into brute strength to amplify attack potency to the highest possible level allowing her to launch powerful fists and bombarding her foes into oblivion

I'm not so certain this interpretation on the mechanics of the Truth-Seeker Orb is supported anywhere. Why would you assume that X amount of chakra goes into providing the orb Attack Potency and Y amounts of chakra is partitioned off for "existence erasure"? The "multiple natures inside being combined to reveal a variety of effects" is a vague description from the databook but likely refers to its various uses such as erasing matter, nullifying Ninjutsu, detonating with explosive blasts, etc. Which doesn't seem to be about dividing chakra up to do those different things but combining the natures inside to do different things depending on which combination is used. There isn't much reason to think that just because the Truth-Seeker Orbs are capable of doing all of things that means that less chakra is being utilized for offense as a result.

I said this in response to Damage but I’ll repeat here, the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya,

I agree that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists dwarfs the Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm technique, but that's not the same thing about it dwarfing all other jutsu.

it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya. Now this is where @Godernet CRT comes in, in this CRT it was accepted that Kaguya’s EGVF will scale above all prior jutsu in this wiki which includes the Base Truth Seeker Orb and whatever Kaguya is able to do via them

The different translations that I've seen for that line:

This jutsu is only possible by the supernatural chakra that Kaguya dominates. (Narutoversity)

A supernatural taijutsu only Kaguya Otsutsuki can invoke, with her mastery over chakra. (Arc7Kuroi)

By mastering chakra, this is an ultra-high-level taijutsu that only Ōtsutsuki Kaguya can wield. (ChatGPT)

This super-human taijutsu, which can only be activated by one who has mastered chakra, Ōtsutsuki Kaguya (Gemini)

The implication I get from the opening line describing the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is that it is a result of Kaguya's mastery over manipulating chakra - something that she is apparently unequaled at (which makes sense with her more-or-less being the progenitor of chakra on Naruto's world). Other characters being able to master jutsu like the Truth-Seeker Orbs doesn't mean these jutsu are inherently inferior to the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist. It just means that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is more difficult to do. Though we have seen characters effecting similar abilities like Naruto being able to spam up chakra fists to contend with Kaguya's attacks; despite Naruto himself being weaker than her total quantity of chakra, he can match her barrage of attacks for a while before being overwhelmed. So sure, other characters can't utilize this specific jutsu but that's not a reason for it to be treated by default stronger than her outputting chakra into Truth-Seeker Orbs.

Also, the first translation for it from Narutoversity which has existed for years may give the impression that it is a jutsu that comes about only by sheer quantity of chakra, but that is not what the other translations including the ones from Arc7Kuroi suggests.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The presupposition that Kaguya using the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist in lieu of attacks with Truth-Seeker Orbs simply because the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is more powerful is not something I think is a warranted assumption.

Characters don't always use a jutsu just because it is the most powerful thing in their arsenal available.

Firstly, while Kaguya does show a preference for using Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist and All-Killing Ash Bones, she has also used other combat abilities too such as attacking with needles from her hair, and controlling nature to attack Naruto. I wouldn't automatically assume that these jutsu are more powerful than any other theoretical jutsu she could've used just because she chose to attack with them. Situationally, certain jutsu just be more more optimal to use without considering power, or could just be more suited to the user's fighting style.

but kaguya prefers EGVF and Ashbones, because the fists add more AP and Ash bones grant better dura neg. This makes sense because if you kept up with this thread or read the Databook entry you’d at least know the EGVF specialise in AP and Durability, they have no other functions other than being really really powerful stat wise, she’s not hitting vitals, there’s no hax no nothing whatsoever

I NEVER once said she prefers all the other jutsu because they grant more AP, deadass my very post said ash bones are preferred for having better dura neg than TSO without saying AP for its case, each jutsu have their own tactical advantage, you'd have to debunk the preference for EGVF being greater AP because it cannot add anything other than raw stats, which you did not do and this is just blatant strawman.

Secondly, I'm not 100% sure that Kaguya can even make ordinary Truth-Seeker Orbs on a whim. From what we've observed in users of Truth-Seeker Orbs, such as Obito, Madara or Naruto, as soon as they attain the state of having Six Paths Senjutsu then they automatically gain the Truth-Seeker Orbs without thinking about it. However they can gradually lose their Truth-Seeker Orbs. Over the course of his fighting, Madara was reduced down to a single Truth-Seeker Orb for a good portion of the battle by Minato teleporting several away yet he never re-created more to replace the ones he lost despite how useful they are for him. Naruto likewise was reduced down to three Truth-Seeker Orbs by the time of his final duel with Sasuke and he seemingly lost those three in his exchange with Sasuke. After losing those three Naruto never used Truth-Seeker Orbs against in Boruto / the New Era. So it seems like even the characters who've mastered using Truth-Seeker Orbs in combat cannot replenish them once they've lost them. Now - we know that Kaguya can of course make an Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb - something that she only does once she's absorbed a vast quantity of Chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Could she have made it beforehand if she desired? Possibly. Can she make regular Truth-Seeker Orbs any time she wants? That remains to be seen; she's never been seen using them in combat which might simply mean she can't use them in combat. After all no other Otsutsuki clan members we've seen since Toneri have been able to either.

Others not making them has nothing to do with her ability because we have a blatant on screen portrayal

• V2 Kaguya makes ETSO, which is a TSO where she pumps in chakra to make it stronger like Naruto with his Bijuudama FRS infused TSO , if she stops pumping it it’s no longer an expansive TSO, it proves she has the ability to make TSOs easily
• V1 and V2 both get IT amps, the difference is purely statistical, it has to do with numbers and nothing else whatsoever
• V1 Kaguya outstats the base TSOs we have seen before, Base SPSM Naruto kicks away a TSO and it’s stated the feat is accomplished thanks to huge chakra and V1 Kaguya outstats a stronger naruto. So she has all the necessities for creation. She doesn’t use them because the fists are stronger.
• Also Obito creates one using Black Zetsu essence which was made by Kaguya

Surprisingly you have no issues with V2 Kaguya making TSO, accepting it gives Isshiki grounds to still upscale regardless

Thirdly, it's possible that Kaguya deemed that it wouldn't have done much good anyway. She could be aware of how Naruto kicked away a Truth-Seeker Orb without being erased by it earlier. Without the erasing component, simply slamming a Truth-Seeker Orb against Naruto may have been less effective than an Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist punch, but that doesn't say anything specific about the different chakra amounts used to create either of them.

but kaguya prefers EGVF and Ashbones, because the fists add more AP and Ash bones grant better dura neg.

This part is weird because you agree to EGVF bringing more tactical advantage against Naruto and then swapped me saying it logically brings better AP with better chakra, which is another strawman but a useless one because the end goal is to prove it is dealing superior damage, if you concede to that then we’re good to go lol

When she does eventually decide to use the Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb, she could've just as easily spammed out Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists instead to finish off Naruto and Sasuke, but she doesn't. She goes for the option of destroying the whole dimension they're in and recreating it. If her fighting style preference was Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists > Truth-Seeker Orbs always, then it seems a little odd that her ultimate move against them is to go for the Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb if the most powerful attack at her disposal was a massively amped up barrage of Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists.

Because ETSO destroys and recreates a whole space continuum
EGVF and Ash-Bones are made to be killing jutsu, they don’t create dimensions, it kills two birds with one stone. That's it

I’ve countered this before, you dropped arguing about this then and just sneakily recycled this, please stop repeating debunked points, It just wastes time

I agree that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists dwarfs the Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm technique, but that's not the same thing about it dwarfing all other jutsu.

I never once said it dwarfs all jutsu based on that, you’re overlooking the primary comparison and conclusion reached using that and swapping it with an imaginary stance so it’s easier to attack, Your Third Strawman.

The different translations that I've seen for that line:
The implication I get from the opening line describing the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is that it is a result of Kaguya's mastery over manipulating chakra - something that she is apparently unequaled at (which makes sense with her more-or-less being the progenitor of chakra on Naruto's world). Other characters being able to master jutsu like the Truth-Seeker Orbs doesn't mean these jutsu are inherently inferior to the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist. It just means that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is more difficult to do. Though we have seen characters effecting similar abilities like Naruto being able to spam up chakra fists to contend with Kaguya's attacks; despite Naruto himself being weaker than her total quantity of chakra, he can match her barrage of attacks for a while before being overwhelmed. So sure, other characters can't utilize this specific jutsu but that's not a reason for it to be treated by default stronger than her outputting chakra into Truth-Seeker Orbs.

Also, the first translation for it from Narutoversity which has existed for years may give the impression that it is a jutsu that comes about only by sheer quantity of chakra, but that is not what the other translations including the ones from Arc7Kuroi suggests.

I said this in response to Damage but I’ll repeat here, the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya

Yeah I deadass said the same thing in explicit wording, my point is consistent across all your translations it.s not contradicted or misinterpreting anything whatsoever
The next point argues difficulty does not necessitate superiority, idk if this is a strawman but it vague-ifies the context

the EGVF dwarves other Jutsu when it comes to chakra output, it’s the superior version of the 8 trigrams attack, both jutsu function by pouring in chakra into the palm but the EGVF’s sheer grandiose level of chakra tiers it massively and far beyond the Jutsu resulting in requirement of chakra mastery of the highest order which was stated to be possessed only by Kaguya, it is stated in a literal way that ONLY Kaguya can perform this jutsu due to having what I said before, juubito juubidara naruto hagormo all casually master truth seeker orb usage but no one in the verse is able to perform this fist Jutsu but Kaguya thanks to the supernatural chakra that she dominates and no other jutsu have this specific requirement, that limits it to Kaguya. Kaguya’s EGVF will scale above all prior jutsu in this wiki which includes the Base Truth Seeker Orb and whatever Kaguya is able to do via them

The grand chakra difference between the two jutsu requires the user of the stronger jutsu to have the best level of chakra control to help drive the supreme chakra amounts into the jutsu which then helps it become the pinnacle of her power, limiting the reason for god tier chakra mastery requirement to a vague “its just harder lol” does not help you circumvent my conclusion because mine addresses why it’s harder

 

[Testarossa002]

The difference between Juubito, Juubidara and Kaguya is just Chakra Volume
There shouldn't be anything that stops Kaguya from making regular TSOs
Heck, Obito formed a TSO with just a fraction of Madara's chakra

 

[Samlex1234]

The difference between Juubito, Juubidara and Kaguya is just Chakra Volume
There shouldn't be anything that stops Kaguya from making regular TSOs
Heck, Obito formed a TSO with just a fraction of Madara's chakra

To expand on this, if Kaguya had stopped infusing chakra into the ETSO immediately after the initial infusion (Low 4C), the ETSO would have contained just enough energy to destroy a Small Star (Low 4C).
This is significant because we know that some jutsu can increase in power based on the amount of chakra infused into them. For example, the Rasengan increases in potency with more chakra input, typically, Odama Rasengan requires more chakra than the base Rasengan, and it can grow even larger depending on how much chakra is infused into it.
Similarly, the ETSO is essentially a Truth-Seeking Orb, with the only difference being its expansion, which is directly tied to continuous chakra infusion. The more chakra that is pumped into it, the stronger it becomes. This means that the destructive capability of the ETSO is not a fixed value but rather a function of the chakra it receives, much like many other chakra-based techniques.

Let's take a look at different Justu that function similarly with different sizes
Rasengan



Biju Bomb



TSO




Occums Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the best one.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Tbh you didn’t need to outline this since it’s obvious but yeah pretty much

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

simply slamming a Truth-Seeker Orb against Naruto may have been less effective than an Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist punch

Do we wrap this up since he’s not bothered by EGVF>TSO

 

[Damage3245]

Do we wrap this up since he’s not bothered by EGVF>TSO

I don't agree with your arguments, but I don't think there's anything new to add to this. I'm fine for other staff to give their input.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't agree with your arguments, but I don't think there's anything new to add to this. I'm fine for other staff to give their input.

bet

I'll tag them after Damage's response so they can look at both arguments

 

[Samlex1234]

I don't agree with your arguments, but I don't think there's anything new to add to this. I'm fine for other staff to give their input.

If not for some staff waiting on your response before casting their votes, I’d have preferred the OP not even engage with you. It’s clear that you're never open to having your mind changed in the first place as your stance is always predetermined, and everyone knows it. Debating you is a waste of time and no you are not a skeptic because even true skeptics can be convinced by proper evidence.
Bad Faith Mod is the perfect word to describe you as a moderator. Most OP don't want you involved in their upgrade CRTs, but when it comes to downgrading (CRTs) - Even I would welcome your presence. I wouldn’t even need a strong argument I could count on you to dismiss valid reasoning and evidence.

Predictable, Too predictable. Way too predictable.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Lex, please behave, save this stuff for the general disc thread
I put effort into this crt I do not want this to turn into drama

 

[Damage3245]

If not for some staff waiting on your response before casting their votes, I’d have preferred the OP not even engage with you. It’s clear that you're never open to having your mind changed in the first place as your stance is always predetermined, and everyone knows it. Debating you is a waste of time and no you are not a skeptic because even true skeptics can be convinced by proper evidence.
Bad Faith Mod is the perfect word to describe you as a moderator. Most OP don't want you involved in their upgrade CRTs, but when it comes to downgrading (CRTs) - Even I would welcome your presence. I wouldn’t even need a strong argument I could count on you to dismiss valid reasoning and evidence.

Predictable, Too predictable. Way too predictable.

Damn, sounds rough.

 

[Samlex1234]

Lex, please behave, save this stuff for the general disc thread
I put effort into this crt I do not want this to turn into drama

Sorry man…. I'm going to die the matter. But honestly it just so annoying and frustrating.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

it's a naruto crt, it WILL be frustrating

However that will never be enough to stop the Naruto Agenda

 

[Nierre]

Secondly, I'm not 100% sure that Kaguya can even make ordinary Truth-Seeker Orbs on a whim. From what we've observed in users of Truth-Seeker Orbs, such as Obito, Madara or Naruto, as soon as they attain the state of having Six Paths Senjutsu then they automatically gain the Truth-Seeker Orbs without thinking about it. However they can gradually lose their Truth-Seeker Orbs. Over the course of his fighting, Madara was reduced down to a single Truth-Seeker Orb for a good portion of the battle by Minato teleporting several away yet he never re-created more to replace the ones he lost despite how useful they are for him. Naruto likewise was reduced down to three Truth-Seeker Orbs by the time of his final duel with Sasuke and he seemingly lost those three in his exchange with Sasuke. After losing those three Naruto never used Truth-Seeker Orbs against in Boruto / the New Era. So it seems like even the characters who've mastered using Truth-Seeker Orbs in combat cannot replenish them once they've lost them. Now - we know that Kaguya can of course make an Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb - something that she only does once she's absorbed a vast quantity of Chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Could she have made it beforehand if she desired? Possibly. Can she make regular Truth-Seeker Orbs any time she wants? That remains to be seen; she's never been seen using them in combat which might simply mean she can't use them in combat. After all no other Otsutsuki clan members we've seen since Toneri have been able to either.

Ehh.. I think the fact that the Databook makes mention that the fact that the difference between the two is size, and obviously power, I would think it's far more likely that she's able to than not. It's literally the same thing, with the only difference being size and power, so if she can make an expansive one, she should be able to create a normal one. Don't think it's a reach to say at all.

Thirdly, it's possible that Kaguya deemed that it wouldn't have done much good anyway. She could be aware of how Naruto kicked away a Truth-Seeker Orb without being erased by it earlier. Without the erasing component, simply slamming a Truth-Seeker Orb against Naruto may have been less effective than an Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist punch, but that doesn't say anything specific about the different chakra amounts used to create either of them. When she does eventually decide to use the Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb, she could've just as easily spammed out Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists instead to finish off Naruto and Sasuke, but she doesn't. She goes for the option of destroying the whole dimension they're in and recreating it. If her fighting style preference was Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists > Truth-Seeker Orbs always, then it seems a little odd that her ultimate move against them is to go for the Expansive Truth-Seeker Orb if the most powerful attack at her disposal was a massively amped up barrage of Eighty Gods Vacuum Fists.

Madara hadn't even fully taken in the Juubi yet so there's no way she knows. Hell, I don't think she knows anything about their kits at all. She didn't know Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals until she used her Byakugan.

Also like I said before, I don't really find it odd that ETSO was the move she decided to use. Considering how even though she was superior to all of them for the most part, they managed to be one step ahead due to planning, Naruto's last minute tricks, and a bunch of other stuff, it's very likely she got frustrated with them and instead of potentially risking Team 7 somehow managing to avoid getting one-shot by EGVF, she thought best to just nuke the whole dimension, which wasn't a bad plan at all if it wasn't for Kakashi's Kamui and everyone playing off that.

The implication I get from the opening line describing the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is that it is a result of Kaguya's mastery over manipulating chakra - something that she is apparently unequaled at (which makes sense with her more-or-less being the progenitor of chakra on Naruto's world). Other characters being able to master jutsu like the Truth-Seeker Orbs doesn't mean these jutsu are inherently inferior to the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist. It just means that the Eighty Gods Vacuum Fist is more difficult to do. Though we have seen characters effecting similar abilities like Naruto being able to spam up chakra fists to contend with Kaguya's attacks; despite Naruto himself being weaker than her total quantity of chakra, he can match her barrage of attacks for a while before being overwhelmed. So sure, other characters can't utilize this specific jutsu but that's not a reason for it to be treated by default stronger than her outputting chakra into Truth-Seeker Orbs.

The grand chakra difference between the two jutsu requires the user of the stronger jutsu to have the best level of chakra control to help drive the supreme chakra amounts into the jutsu which then helps it become the pinnacle of her power, limiting the reason for god tier chakra mastery requirement to a vague “its just harder lol” does not help you circumvent my conclusion because mine addresses why it’s harder

And I agree with Ghost here.

 

[Nierre]

Anyways, I'm sorry I've been really busy with personal stuff. I'll ping staff now

@LordGriffin1000 @LordTracer @UchihaSlayer96 @DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ehh.. I think the fact that the Databook makes mention that the fact that the difference between the two is size, and obviously power, I would think it's far more likely that she's able to than not. It's literally the same thing, with the only difference being size and power, so if she can make an expansive one, she should be able to create a normal one. Don't think it's a reach to say at all.

Madara hadn't even fully taken in the Juubi yet so there's no way she knows. Hell, I don't think she knows anything about their kits at all. She didn't know Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals until she used her Byakugan.

Also like I said before, I don't really find it odd that ETSO was the move she decided to use. Considering how even though she was superior to all of them for the most part, they managed to be one step ahead due to planning, Naruto's last minute tricks, and a bunch of other stuff, it's very likely she got frustrated with them and instead of potentially risking Team 7 somehow managing to avoid getting one-shot by EGVF, she thought best to just nuke the whole dimension, which wasn't a bad plan at all if it wasn't for Kakashi's Kamui and everyone playing off that.


And I agree with Ghost here.

Also another thing I wanna add is that Madara after being limited down to his last TSO could retrieve his old ones many times after naruto kicked one away
that's how he gets his staff, by shaping the orbs into a stick and he uses that offensively, so Kaguya who came out of him should at least be able to use his kit, for her to rely on the fists is just blatant portrayal of them being stronger

 

[Damage3245]

Also another thing I wanna add is that Madara after being limited down to his last TSO could retrieve his old ones many times after naruto kicked one away
that's how he gets his staff, by shaping the orbs into a stick and he uses that offensively, so Kaguya who came out of him should at least be able to use his kit, for her to rely on the fists is just blatant portrayal of them being stronger

What do you mean by retrieve his old ones? He didn't get any of the other ones back; the one Naruto kicked away is the same one he shaped into a staff.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

What do you mean by retrieve his old ones? He didn't get any of the other ones back; the one Naruto kicked away is the same one he shaped into a staff.

which he reused, so thats one weapon available for combat

 

[Godernet]

is the current contention whether or not Kaguya can create normal TSO?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

is the current contention whether or not Kaguya can create normal TSO?

Nope, she can as proven here

• Others not making them has nothing to do with her ability because we have a blatant on screen portrayal
  • V2 Kaguya makes ETSO, which is a TSO where she pumps in chakra to make it stronger like Naruto with his Bijuudama FRS infused TSO , if she stops pumping it it’s no longer an expansive TSO, it proves she has the ability to make TSOs easily
  • V1 and V2 both get IT amps, the difference is purely statistical, it has to do with numbers and nothing else whatsoever
  • V1 Kaguya outstats the base TSOs we have seen before, Base SPSM Naruto kicks away a TSO and it’s stated the feat is accomplished thanks to huge chakra and V1 Kaguya outstats a stronger naruto. So she has all the necessities for creation. She doesn’t use them because the fists are stronger.
  • Also Obito creates one using Black Zetsu essence which was made by Kaguya
• Surprisingly you have no issues with V2 Kaguya making TSO, accepting it gives Isshiki grounds to still upscale regardless