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He/Him- 6,200
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Following; love the Agnaa banter on the 2nd page. (Not going to give input unless necessary)
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- #202
I get that as an awareness thing, but not as something that would actually be used in fights. The only thing I could arguably see having a physical equivalent is him not taking his turn so that Frisk can't. But even that seems like it would crumble under verse equalisation (just as Gerson's inability to be attacked by Frisk would).
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Am I sensing the Agnaa Sans rework coming?
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- #204
I don't want to. I just want to find any answer to these basic questions which isn't a violation of site standards, or "We didn't think of that".
As I said, with Sans/Flowey/Chara scaling, I disagree with it but that's A Reason that isn't insane.
There probably are answers for stuff like "Why would these other 7 characters upscale" and "Why would these characters scale to this optional consumable from way earlier in the game" and "How does this ability that's on his profile actually function", but the pages themselves aren't clear enough.
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I’ll just put my extra-two cents here.
The reason I believe all characters cannot dodge is neither due to lack of speed (because they are clearly comparable) nor any meta-stuff (that would be just a lazy assumption seemingly to downplay Sans), but the fact that it would cause the questions such as “why does Frisk never remember where and how will they dodge?”
Sans, on the other hand, is just too fast Frisk to ever land a hit. That guy literally dodges while asleep, c’mon. Rejecting that he is fastest non-God tier character is just a denial with a sole intention of downplaying the verse.
Regarding Sea Tea stuff, if you want to play tough then consider that we can literally use Sea Tea in fights where speed feats are made.
The reason I believe all characters cannot dodge is neither due to lack of speed (because they are clearly comparable) nor any meta-stuff (that would be just a lazy assumption seemingly to downplay Sans), but the fact that it would cause the questions such as “why does Frisk never remember where and how will they dodge?”
Sans, on the other hand, is just too fast Frisk to ever land a hit. That guy literally dodges while asleep, c’mon. Rejecting that he is fastest non-God tier character is just a denial with a sole intention of downplaying the verse.
Regarding Sea Tea stuff, if you want to play tough then consider that we can literally use Sea Tea in fights where speed feats are made.
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- #206
Please stop assuming people's intentions. We recently demoted a staff member for this sort of behaviour. I overlooked this the first time you did it to someone else, but I don't want it continuing.
Not fully sure what you mean:
- If by "speed feats are made" you mean the stuff we calc, then sure, as I said I'm fine with giving Frisk 2x speed off of Sea Teas for those.
- If by "speed feats are made" you mean Sans dodging Frisk's attacks, then I think that's weak evidence but reasonable minds can disagree. And ig going by the earlier logic, that would also scale to Omega Flowey and Chara.
- If by "speed feats are made" you mean something else, idk what that would be.
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I didn’t.
We can calculate the speed during Vulkin/Knight Knigh fights and get same results, scale to Frisk with Sea Tea and Sans and Omega Flowey.
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- #208
Whatever you want to call it, we've considered those sorts of comments to be rule violations. As you're making a claim about something you don't have good knowledge over (another person's internal thought process), and which isn't a part of the argument, in order to paint it to a negative light.
Please stick to arguments, not your guesses at why people make those arguments.
So the first and second one, alright.
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I never directly accused you though? It’s like saying “saying character who did X scale below X is just downplaying the said character”. I never said anything about you specifically — it was a generalization.
Pretty much.
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He/Him- 6,200
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Regardless if that was your intention, I think he got that impression from this vvv
"Rejecting that he is fastest non-God tier character is just a denial with a sole intention of downplaying the verse."
Despite my young age, wisdom has taught me people are emotional beings no matter how logical. If you don't want to give off the impression that you're assuming intentions, reword your words better (that's what my mom would say).
In this case, Agnaa took the reply we saw in a negative way.
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This still does not mean I addressed to him specifically? It’s like saying “rejecting that a guy caught on camera did something while we see it on camera is a denial with a sole intention of defending the person no matter what”. It’s still a generalization. You can disagree with that if you want to.
Fair enough, although I guess it’d be better not to say anything at all. I can agree with that.
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I already gave that, but if you're just gonna spam mental gymnastics and excuses to oppose it I ain't gonna do much tbh.
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- #213
Oh, was it the argument you presented here?
That Toriel should upscale from CORE-level monsters since "she's stronger", presumably based on in-game stats, even though those stats are just ATK/DEF, the DT scaling argument only applies to characters with DT like Frisk, Flowey, and Undyne, and that y'all argue Sans is one of the fastest characters in the game despite his puny ATK/DEF stats?
And I don't remember you ever talking about how Sans attacking characters in menus would function in an actual vs match in threads; what it would physically represent for the other character to manage/dodge.
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Toriel should upscale since she was able to attack Flowey and Asgore and they didn’t dodge (even though somewhat they were somewhat off-guarded, but still means she is not much slower. And also Asgore was staring for a good amount of time, but still off guarded since I don’t think he expected anyone to interrupt the battle at all).
Why is this even discussed here? Like, genuinely? That was never accepted nor acknowledged in the game much unlike his special attack and ability to dodge.
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I presented arguments on why those also apply to speed.
I used the DT thing as an example of the verse treating more ATK = more speed, you somehow jumping at saying "only DT users get faster" is just a spite argument at this point.
And yes, Sans is the obvious exception at this rule, who would've thought!
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- #216
Normal Flowey doesn't really have reason to scale; start-of-game Frisk can dodge his attacks when not being hit by a wall of danmaku. And yeah, I'd put that Asgore stuff more as being off-guard, but fair enough.
How about normal-route Undyne?
I can't find any, I just saw arguments about DT. Could you at least link to the post where you said that?
Oh, it's about ATK huh?
Knight Knight's ATK of 36 is higher than all Amalgamates. Why do you say they scale?
I do generally think this argument sucks, "This protagonist has a power system which presumably increases over the course of the story. Also, enemies they fight over the course of the story generally get higher speed feats. Therefore strength increases for any character in the series are also speed increases. Except for the cases where this is obviously wrong." We should absolutely not let arguments of that caliber fly; it would cause strength to automatically scale to speed for 95% of verses on the site.
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Legit killed everyone in the game. Even if you drop this, he also shouldn’t be much slower given the Neutral post-Asgore stuff.
Oh, yeah, the same attacks that are meant to be a trick and not blitz anyone, sure.
Alright.
She is the head of the Royal Guard, thus must be at least comparable to her subordinates in Hotland. She also was able to land a hit on Asgore after training. C’mon now.
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- #218
Oh yeah, I forgot about that stuff. He did have the time travel advantage, but fair enough.
This is about scaling to CORE fellas, but ig if you don't think Asgore got stronger after that training (and don't attribute it to her being modestly slower, but having many tries against an opponent trying to train her), then fair enough.
Then the main hesitation I have with that list posted earlier, is why all of them upscale, instead of most just being comparable to the CORE monsters. I don't like assuming that bosses of areas or characters in future arcs upscale by default. And if it's the stat stuff, I think that runs into its own contradictions; you can't simultaneously have the Amalgamates and Undyne upscale from Knight Knight based on stats.
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Alright. And I FSR forgot that Hotland and Core are not the same, lol. But anyways, you’d expect a head of Royal Guard be faster than average CORE people.
Uh, not sure what you mean by that. Like, why does everyone in Waterfall get a buff instead of it being just Undyne or something?
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- #220
They're probably more difficult opponents in general, but I think it's weird to just imagine like a 1.2x multiplier to all stats for being the boss of a zone, when there's nothing textually indicating that.
And I would like to reiterate the other prong of my concern; upscaling the Amalgamates from the CORE monster speed rating.
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They're such because they're right before Asgore and they're DT-filled abominations, so some leniency for them can be given.
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- #222
Given the way that whole TRUE LAB story was explained, and that we have the clear counterexample of Snowdrake's Mother, I think that reasoning is insufficient to believe they're faster than the strongest ordinary monsters. Their forms couldn't handle the DT, making them melt together, so I don't think we should give them a Undyne the Undying-sorta treatment.
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- #223
Actually, at this point, would one of you two be interested in applying this CRT?
I just realised there'd be a whole lot more stuff to litigate (determining which characters who go down to possibly MHS+ will be able to scale to Knight Knight, and which will have to scale to Greater Dog), and I'd rather not have another page of this if possible.
If I don't have to personally type it out, it'll be a lot easier for me to overlook any scaling choices I disagree with.
I just realised there'd be a whole lot more stuff to litigate (determining which characters who go down to possibly MHS+ will be able to scale to Knight Knight, and which will have to scale to Greater Dog), and I'd rather not have another page of this if possible.
If I don't have to personally type it out, it'll be a lot easier for me to overlook any scaling choices I disagree with.
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I think this is a fair assestment, but treating them like fodder when they're actually able to still harm and keep up with a Frisk that was during Hotdland is still something that's above things like in Waterfall after all.
Snowdrake's Mother is the exception here ofc as she's the only thing with negative stats.
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Replying here as you pointed in my message wall as I missed it.
Anyway, if you're alright, I'll apply the upscaling that's currently accepted here. I dunno if any staff has disagreed with the Sea Tea thing yet, but I suppose that'd require its own CRT given that none said anything to it.
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I'll just say this however.
The Discussion Rule should be removed from the page, and the note on the verse page should say something like this;
The Discussion Rule should be removed from the page, and the note on the verse page should say something like this;
- Do not attempt to make discussions regarding the speed of Vulkin's lightning attacks until new canon information is released from official sources, as this topic was repeated numerous times, and ultimately it was decided that the attack is ambigous enough to leave a possibility for it having actual lightning speed, due to Monsters' magic generally replicating its real counterpart without too many differences.
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No, it's already long enough.
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- #233
Now that you've updated those, I've locked them.
Lemme know if there's any issues. Or when you're done updating, so I can close the thread.
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