All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Omegabronic]

So wouldn't the universal spirit bomb scale to the mass energy of the universe cause goku took energy from it?

depends, how much energy did he took?

 

[Electronic74947]

depends, how much energy did he took?

Its consistently stated he took energy from the universe to the point that otherworld even joined in. Combined with the fuckton of statements of kid buu going to destroy the universe should support that it would be at least the mass energy of the universe (not flat out because individually absorbing the energy to destroy every planet and star would be less than the omnidirectional explosion) so it’d be galaxy to multi galaxy


Imma try to find scans but I’m surprised this is never brought up to support tier 3 buu

 

[Darkmon_cns]

That’s where mass energy scales……. Also an ocean + sky and grass is enough to kill large planet level beings. A star should logically be above star level. Especially since king Kai said “imagine what you can do with earth or even the sun” implying that energy from the sun would be very powerful

I deeply disagree. It's a form of life force the physical size of somthing has nothing to do with it. Ocean sky and grass wasn't all he took from it, he took energy from the birds in the sky, there life in the ocean and yes the life force of grass.

I'd have to ask for manga scans because I believe the scene your talking about is anime only

 

[Electronic74947]

I deeply disagree. It's a form of life force the physical size of somthing has nothing to do with it. Ocean sky and grass wasn't all he took from it, he took energy from the birds in the sky, there life in the ocean and yes the life force of grass.

I'd have to ask for manga scans because I believe the scene your talking about is anime only

I misremembered it, he took a little bit of earths energy but

He took it from the earths core as well, which is inanimate. Keep in mind this wasn't ALL of it, only a little according to goku

King kai also calls the suns energy tremendous, while also saying that the genki dama using a small part of the planets energy, can destroy the planet itself.

So it should stand that Genki dama > power needed to kill/destroy the doner, so taking energy from the universe would lead to it being > the mass energy of the universe (which is multi galaxy barely) supporting the universal overtime kid buu, especially since goku in the manga implies in a relatively short timeframe (I think the term he used was "poof") which with multi-galaxy levels of power and teleportation, it would very much be "poof".

 

[RedReaper616]

I misremembered it, he took a little bit of earths energy but

He took it from the earths core as well, which is inanimate. Keep in mind this wasn't ALL of it, only a little according to goku

King kai also calls the suns energy tremendous, while also saying that the genki dama using a small part of the planets energy, can destroy the planet itself.

So it should stand that Genki dama > power needed to kill/destroy the doner, so taking energy from the universe would lead to it being > the mass energy of the universe (which is multi galaxy barely) supporting the universal overtime kid buu, especially since goku in the manga implies in a relatively short timeframe (I think the term he used was "poof") which with multi-galaxy levels of power and teleportation, it would very much be "poof".

I feel like this ignores how in the Moro Arc it’s revealed the energy of planets are cosmically strong. Moro can use the Energy of Namek itself to damage Vegeta, a Low Multiversal threat. Clearly, the Energy needed to Bust a planet is not comparable to the Energy it Contains.

 

[Electronic74947]

I feel like this ignores how in the Moro Arc it’s revealed the energy of planets are cosmically strong. Moro can use the Energy of Namek itself to damage Vegeta, a Low Multiversal threat. Clearly, the Energy needed to Bust a planet is not comparable to the Energy it Contains.

so is this supporting or going against my theoretical argument

 

[RedReaper616]

so is this supporting or going against my theoretical argument

Against, because as far as the Moro Arc is concerned, New Namek—Identical to Namek—Has the Energy of the ENTIRE MACROCOSM (more, actually, due to upscaling, and Earth scales above that, as stronger SSBE Vegeta was hurt by Earth’s Energy), in it. Unless we’re saying Vegeta is Multiversal in the Saiyan Saga because he can blow up Earth, (which contains multiversal levels of energy), or that Goku’s Saiyan Saga Spirit Bomb is at that level because it drained from the Earth.

 

[Omegabronic]

Its consistently stated he took energy from the universe to the point that otherworld even joined in.

yeah........but how much energy from the universe he took? other dimensions helping don't tell me that

Combined with the fuckton of statements of kid buu going to destroy the universe should support that it would be at least the mass energy of the universe (not flat out because individually absorbing the energy to destroy every planet and star would be less than the omnidirectional explosion) so it’d be galaxy to multi galaxy

no, all the energy of the universe combined(aka, enough to make the stars die out) is like, 4-A iirc, and it clearly didn't get to that point for the Spirit Bomb, hence why stars are still a thing

as for the Kid Buu statements? meh, i see them as valid, but people tried that here before, didn't go so well

Imma try to find scans but I’m surprised this is never brought up to support tier 3 buu

cause it isn't even tier 3 to begin with

 

[Electronic74947]

yeah........but how much energy from the universe he took? other dimensions helping don't tell me that

Genki dama only takes a little from the donor but I've already shown in another link that a little is still > the donor, as stated by king kai. All that matters is the range, which extends to low multi.

Against, because as far as the Moro Arc is concerned, New Namek—Identical to Namek—Has the Energy of the ENTIRE MACROCOSM (more, actually, due to upscaling, and Earth scales above that, as stronger SSBE Vegeta was hurt by Earth’s Energy), in it. Unless we’re saying Vegeta is Multiversal in the Saiyan Saga because he can blow up Earth, (which contains multiversal levels of energy), or that Goku’s Saiyan Saga Spirit Bomb is at that level because it drained from the Earth.

But Moro can absorb the ENTIRE energy of the planet, spirit bomb only takes a small part and that's enough to destroy the planet.

no, all the energy of the universe combined(aka, enough to make the stars die out) is like, 4-A iirc, and it clearly didn't get to that point for the Spirit Bomb, hence why stars are still a thing

Mass energy is 3-B, this is for the mass of the universe

 

[RedReaper616]

Genki dama only takes a little from the donor but I've already shown in another link that a little is still > the donor, as stated by king kai. All that matters is the range, which extends to low multi.

A fraction of the Low Multiversal Energy of the Planet. It’s not that taking amplifies the planets Energy, it’s that Planets just contain cosmic amounts to draw from. Meaning you can’t draw any correlation between the values.

But Moro can absorb the ENTIRE energy of the planet, spirit bomb only takes a small part and that's enough to destroy the planet.

Moro can take tiny bits, and his whole-sale drain does so over time. In fact, his literal go to attack is making a tiny fraction of the Planet’s energy just burst out in lava-like form. Mind you, the “tiny fraction” he hits his opponents with is Low Multiversal (Hurts PSSB Goku and Vegeta). Meaning the whole planet’s worth should be so much greater that it’s literally impossible to calculate.

 

[StekFence]

why didn’t Goku just take the multiversal energy of idk, Saturn to kill buu, is he stupid? Smh

 

[Electronic74947]

A fraction of the Low Multiversal Energy of the Planet. It’s not that taking amplifies the planets Energy, it’s that Planets just contain cosmic amounts to draw from. Meaning you can’t draw any correlation between the values.

Moro can take tiny bits, and his whole-sale drain does so over time. In fact, his literal go to attack is making a tiny fraction of the Planet’s energy just burst out in lava-like form. Mind you, the “tiny fraction” he hits his opponents with is Low Multiversal (Hurts PSSB Goku and Vegeta). Meaning the whole planet’s worth should be so much greater that it’s literally impossible to calculate.

The argument isn’t that it takes the whole planets worth, the point is that the energy that the spirit bomb takes is enough to destroy the donor planet. That’s why I’m not arguing for low multi buu, and only scaling it to the GBE of the sources collected, because the lowest we see a fully charged spirit bomb take from the planet doner is enough to destroy said planet. And likewise it should be the same for the star.

Also wasn’t Moro also low multi without the planets energy

 

[Electronic74947]

why didn’t Goku just take the multiversal energy of idk, Saturn to kill buu, is he stupid? Smh

Goku is stupid tbf

Spirit bomb only takes a bit, and it’s amplified by the user of said technique

 

[Omegabronic]

Genki dama only takes a little from the donor but I've already shown in another link that a little is still > the donor, as stated by king kai. All that matters is the range, which extends to low multi.

Which would be impossible to calculate as we do not know the ration which the energy taken is made stronger

Mass energy is 3-B, this is for the mass of the universe

......are you suggesting Goky literally absorbed and converted all the matter in the Universe into energy?

 

[StekFence]

I think that logic leads to the logical conclusion that Buu is just worth several planet and star busting energies tho. Remember, a galaxy is not a real singular object, it’s a set of things. And gokus taking the energy needed to bust those individual things under this argument, not the energy needed to bust the whole set.

The argument isn’t that it takes the whole planets worth, the point is that the energy that the spirit bomb takes is enough to destroy the donor planet. That’s why I’m not arguing for low multi buu, and only scaling it to the GBE of the sources collected, because the lowest we see a fully charged spirit bomb take from the planetary doner is enough to destroy said planet

 

[Electronic74947]

I think that logic leads to the logical conclusion that Buu is just worth several planet and star busting energies tho. Remember, a galaxy is not a real singular object, it’s a set of things. And gokus taking the energy needed to bust those individual things under this argument, not the energy needed to bust the whole set.

The point is that the combined energy to destroy every individual star and planet added together is multi galaxy, and just barely.

So it’s like 1 + 1

As opposed to the omnidirectional destruction

 

[Electronic74947]

Which would be impossible to calculate as we do not know the ration which the energy taken is made stronger

Just use the GBE of the celestial body as a baseline, and add them all up

......are you suggesting Goky literally absorbed and converted all the matter in the Universe into energy?

Mass energy is the total energy of the universe, assuming the sun is the average it would still be close to galaxy level, not including all the planets. Mass energy was just a vague estimate since it’d including the binding energy of everything, it’d likely just be galaxy level

Edit: nah your right it’s just 4-A, still better than what it currently is

 

[StekFence]

I see. I would ignore every star tho, and only count one planet per solar system tho, since king Kai said that the energy he takes from earth and the sun is what’s planet busting. Even if he took from say, mars, that on its own wouldn’t be mars busting, and you can’t count the suns energy on top of that because we already are adding it to earth bustings total energy sum. Since stars are stupidly larger then planets, I’d just ignore every other planets energy even if he’s taking it, it’s likely minuscule in comparison. So if he made a solar systems genkidama, it would be planet busting, and then some. But prob not star busting

 

[Electronic74947]

I see. I would ignore every star tho, and only count one planet per solar system tho, since king Kai said that the energy he takes from earth and the sun is what’s planet busting. Even if he took from say, mars, that on its own wouldn’t be mars busting, and you can’t count the suns energy on top of that because we already are adding it to earth bustings total energy sum. Since stars are stupidly larger then planets, I’d just ignore every other planets energy even if he’s taking it, it’s likely minuscule in comparison

the energy from earth alone was enough to kill big monkey had goku not been interrupted who can destroy the planet, the star statement was just evidence that he can take it from stars as well

 

[StekFence]

****, im going to rethink this

 

[Electronic74947]

****, im going to rethink this

Run from it, but the most aura DB villain is gonna be multi SS

 

[StekFence]

I wonder if you could explain it using the fact that the z fighters energy is added to it(not that I remember if it was) and king Kai was speaking only about the planets ambient energies

 

[StekFence]

Run from it, but the most aura DB villain is gonna be multi SS

Damn, multi solar cell???

 

[Electronic74947]

I wonder if you could explain it using the fact that the z fighters energy is added to it(not that I remember if it was) and king Kai was speaking only about the planets ambient energies

Weren’t they pre occupied with vegetation to give energy

Damn, multi solar cell???

he goated and the best but not the most aura let’s be honest. Kid buu popped in and stood on business

 

[StekFence]

i can’t say I like buus all that much, maybe super Buu

 

[Electronic74947]

i can’t say I like buus all that much, maybe super Buu

Nah kid buu was the best

 

[RedReaper616]

The argument isn’t that it takes the whole planets worth,

I know.

the point is that the energy that the spirit bomb takes is enough to destroy the donor planet.

My point is that the Earth itself has Low Multi-Energy. Taking a fraction of Low Multi Energy is Low Multi because it’s infinite energy. Plus, you have to speculate on how little the Earth gives. Furthermore, you have to consider that your point is that Take Enough Energy to Blow up the Planet X a lot = Buu. The issue is a single planet can gut Buu if Goku just drained it for a lengthy period. It functionally means that, given planets contain low multi energy, you can’t correlate the outcome Goku gets to what the Planet is. They’re entirely unrelated values. There’s no way to logic it.

That’s why I’m not arguing for low multi buu, and only scaling it to the GBE of the sources collected, because the lowest we see a fully charged spirit bomb take from the planet doner is enough to destroy said planet. And likewise it should be the same for the star.

I’m pointing out the logical conclusion of your argument.

Also wasn’t Moro also low multi without the planets energy

Moro’s strength is irrelevant. He states himself it’s the planet’s energy, not himself, that attacks, hence why he can do so infinitely at no cost other than the planet. He merely directs the planet‘s energy.

 

[Electronic74947]

I know.

My point is that the Earth itself has Low Multi-Energy. Taking a fraction of Low Multi Energy is Low Multi because it’s infinite energy. Plus, you have to speculate on how little the Earth gives. Furthermore, you have to consider that your point is that Take Enough Energy to Blow up the Planet X a lot = Buu. The issue is a single planet can gut Buu if Goku just drained it for a lengthy period. It functionally means that, given planets contain low multi energy, you can’t correlate the outcome Goku gets to what the Planet is. They’re entirely unrelated values. There’s no way to logic it..

You’re using hypothetical limits to say what the spirit bomb can get to, but I’m using the bare minimum to say what buu pushed back in the final arc. We also don’t know how much energy the SB takes from the planet but it at bare minimum takes enough to destroy the planet itself, which is what I’m scaling buu to. the bare minimum is that it would be enough to destroy its doner celestial body via scaling to other times it’s been used, like against Vegeta and frieza. Your argument hinges on the fact that we don’t have a “bare minimum” when that is why I made the argument, because we DO have an argument for a bare minimum to scale buu to. It could be stronger yes but we don’t know how much. Against vegeta and frieza with shorter time frames and less sources it was enough to output more than enough energy to destroy the celestial body, hell against frieza it’s like star level from just namek’s energy iirc

 

[Electronic74947]

TLDR:

Spirit Bomb bare minimum takes enough energy from the celestial bodies source to destroy it as shown against vegeta and frieza, therefore the universal spirit bomb takes enough energy from ALL celestial bodies to destroy all of them at once, which is like 4-A. Supported by buu going to destroy the universe in a short time frame very quickly.

 

[RedReaper616]

You’re using hypothetical limits to say what the spirit bomb can get to, but I’m using the bare minimum to say what buu pushed back in the final arc. We also don’t know how much energy the SB takes from the planet but it at bare minimum takes enough to destroy the planet itself, which is what I’m scaling buu to. the bare minimum is that it would be enough to destroy its doner celestial body via scaling to other times it’s been used, like against Vegeta and frieza. Your argument hinges on the fact that we don’t have a “bare minimum” when that is why I made the argument, because we DO have an argument for a bare minimum to scale buu to. It could be stronger yes but we don’t know how much. Against vegeta and frieza with shorter time frames and less sources it was enough to output more than enough energy to destroy the celestial body, hell against frieza it’s like star level from just namek’s energy iirc

That's my issue. You're instating a hypothetical baseline, when it doesn't even make sense.

One, Goku's Spirit Bomb, like Moro's drain, affects all life on the planet. Even micro-organisms, apparently. This would mean that logically, it should be much stronger than what it is and closer to the Moro Arc's portrayal. Two, Against Frieza Goku took the Namekian Solar System. So this scaling doesn't hold up. Your only example is Earth. Three, due to what we know of the Moro Arc, there is no way to mathematically correlate a "minimum" or "resultant effect," because the pool it drains from is cosmic. Hell, the fact Goku was interrupted and thus prevented him from making one capable of beating Oozaru Vegeta, proves that it's related to a plethora of variables, including how long he can drain, the amount of life avaliable, (in fact, it's explicitly noted to be a limit so bad that Goku couldn't possibly create a good enough Spirit Bomb with only Namek's energy, and even draining multiple planets for an extended period WAS NOT ENOUGH, meaning there is no "BASELINE" that can be GLEANED, as it is VARIABLE), and due to fact it's literally infinite energy, it's borderline unscaleable because a fraction of infinite energy would be...infinite energy. (Though this would be more a Wiki issue than a Dragon Ball issue, but even THEN we see THIS IS THE CASE, because the fractions of energy that hurt SSB Vegeta and SSB Goku are 2-C, and yet STILL beneath the full planet's energy). And, again, due to these circumstances, the logical conclusion or the argument is that, given they are siphoning from this infinite supply of raw physical power, that those various fighters are vastly stronger than they actually are.

 

[SlendVeny]

Nah kid buu was the best

One of the few things I agreed with on here today.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

The Manga version he's going to a non-erased universe. I don't remember how the anime version went.

It looks like it's the same, in the "History Chart Display" they go to a different timeline that serves the same history as the history of Future Trunks that we know.

 

[Vietthai96]

I feel like this ignores how in the Moro Arc it’s revealed the energy of planets are cosmically strong. Moro can use the Energy of Namek itself to damage Vegeta, a Low Multiversal threat. Clearly, the Energy needed to Bust a planet is not comparable to the Energy it Contains.

Because Planets don't amp themselves with their energy or Ki, Moro manipulate the energy that why it is that strong. Like when Goku or any Ki manipulators get hurt by mundane things when they are relaxed

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Snip

I have to disagree with you. I don't see why it being cosmic debunks there being a applicable minimum based on the showings we see.

Final form Freiza is already listed as large star level so there's no contradiction with goku using energy from the whole solar system

Your aurging that we for some reason can't apply the destruction we've seen so far (taking energy from a planet or star equals being able to destory it, no star is mentioned for Earth's spirt bomb but I believe it was on namic)

There is also clearly a limit goku can take from natural resources like planets or stars, as goku mentions the attack being full or ready which dosen't make sense if he came charge it endlessly (this is likly for the same reason human consent was needed to make the spirit bomb larger in the buu ark, planets and stars can't give consent so there is a set amount he can take)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I don't remember how the anime version went.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Time travel that can go to the past of a hypertimeline before it was erased

So there's a 6-D time axis

Is there even actual scaling to it in SDBH?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Try Occam's razor.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Try Occam's razor.

asks uncertain question

receives obtuse answer

 

[Roun12]

Time travel that can go to the past of a hypertimeline before it was erased

So there's a 6-D time axis

Is there even actual scaling to it in SDBH?

SDBH characters scale to all of time, all dimensions and realms beyond the entire multiverse's flow of time, so I would say yes. Funny thing, Xenoverse has a similar event occur, but with the entire multiverse.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

SDBH characters scale to all of time, all dimensions and realms beyond the entire multiverse's flow of time, so I would say yes. Funny thing, Xenoverse has a similar event occur, but with the entire multiverse.

Xenoverse and Heroes are like Dragon ball composite. Using anyone from there in a versus equals using a composite version of said character