Partners in Crime: Tier 9-A Duo Tournament; Round 2 Match 4: Kamen Riders Black Sun & Shadow Moon VS Medic & Heavy (0-0-0)

[Catbowtie]

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Assumptions:​

Combatants start 30 meters apart and out of each others' sight
Speed Equalized
All combatants are restricted to 9-A
All combatants have their Standard Equipment
The battle's location takes place in trenches.
Otherwise, Standard Battle Assumptions​

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Combatants	Votes
Kamen Riders Black Sun & Shadow Moon
Medic & Heavy
Inconclusive

 

[Shadowslash125]

Following but will take a long while because my pc is ****** and thus my debating shenanigans are limited.

 

[Shadowslash125]

My pc is good and I'll start posting in a bit.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Late but here I am.

This match is similar to their preliminary match where they're massively outclassed in AP/Dura (tho they won't get one-shot anytime soon due to not being 8x gap) and outranged, but that's where the similarities end, since this is way easier than the previous match.
Now that this battle takes place in trenches, the riders have ample room to take cover as they make their way to the mercs. It's an added plus for them, despite already having the means to deal with the danmaku via Shadow Moon's Telekinesis. Thankfully, the danmaku is just a straight line and not anything else so they won't have as much difficulty as the deltarune duo.

We do have to get two elephants out of the room first, AKA the violent tendencies of the rider duo and the merc's ubercharge that grants invulnerability.

Unlike last time, they're straight up facing humans this time, at which they won't usually go for the kill. Shadow Moon is a bit more bloodthirsty than Black Sun in terms of dealing with humans due to some story stuff that happened, so if he woke up on the wrong side of the bed that day, he's going to pile up some kills. While Black Sun himself usually doesn't go for killing humans, he is neutral to his best friend doing such things.

The mercs would start off popping their canteens to ubercharge, which would last 5 seconds since their main ubercharge would take a while. I assume that they will only be immune to damage, so Shadow Moon's initiating TK will knock them down or raise and turn them away from the riders at the very least so that he can use TK to pin them before their time is up and then incap/crush them. Medic's resurrection would mean squat if he just keeps getting crushed if he gets killed, Nobuhiko just needs to exert more effort in killing him more, assuming he goes for the kill. In the case of incap, non-lethal TK.

Due to their enhanced senses, the rider bros will be on the initiative first and can probably catch the mercs off guard too with the infamous TK, knocking off all their weapons and canteens from their hands along with pinning them down too. The riders' Class M LS is going to be a ***** for the poor mercs' Class 5 LS.

This match does lean towards the riders more (much so than the equally matched Deltarune one).

 

[ShionAH]

How will they get past Medics High-Mid healing though?

Also Heavy with Uber has Class T.

 

[Shadowslash125]

How will they get past Medics High-Mid healing though?

I assume that his healing comes from his equipment along with his reliant resurrection. So Shadow Moon can just knock off all their equipment with his ranged TK before or after their ubercharge, which would just last 5 seconds with the canteen or 8 seconds with the actual ubercharge from the medic.

Also Heavy with Uber has Class T.

If that's so, then that really need to be in the profile or some link has to be provided for that. I went in assuming class 5 for both of them. Would that apply to medic as well?

Anyways, their ubers have time limits, so the riders can either attack before they pop their ubers or can wait that our safely, due to not only being able to dodge the danmaku but also reflect, deflect and guard it with the TK.

 

[ShionAH]

I assume that his healing comes from his equipment along with his reliant resurrection. So Shadow Moon can just knock off all their equipment with his ranged TK before or after their ubercharge, which would just last 5 seconds with the canteen or 8 seconds with the actual ubercharge from the medic.

If Medic has his optional equipment he will have many many different Medi Guns, by the way the Medi Guns are basically wired on him so I assume it wouldnt be easy to just take 'em off.

If that's so, then that really need to be in the profile or some link has to be provided for that. I went in assuming class 5 for both of them. Would that apply to medic as well?

I mean Heavy only achieves this if Medic ubercharges him, in normal battles they wont be together.

End of the Line

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Anyways, their ubers have time limits, so the riders can either attack before they pop their ubers or can wait that our safely, due to not only being able to dodge the danmaku but also reflect, deflect and guard it with the TK.

28 seconds at the very least, and it seems like in canon he doesn't even have a time limit since we can see him still ubering Heavy while his medi gun is offline. I am not sure if they can dodge Minigun ammo and Miniguns are immune to Pyros M2 so I dont think they can deflect it

 

[Shadowslash125]

If Medic has his optional equipment he will have many many different Medi Guns, by the way the Medi Guns are basically wired on him so I assume it wouldnt be easy to just take 'em off.

Ok, firstly, they won't have any optional equipment due to being stated in the OP already. Secondly, Shadow Moon's Class M TK is strong enough to casually knock away three of his kaijin brethren in different positions who each have (or at least downscale slightly) from this feat. This is just him being casual because he can amp his TK as well. Class 5 LS mercs (not accounting for the upgrade in LS from ubercharge just yet) will be easy pickings for telekinesis of that level.

End of the Line

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Clear this for me real quick please, has this actually been accepted? While I see people agreeing with this, the main point in consensus was the long chain of replies that ends with the head honcho/s accepting the low end. I've already assumed Class T LS but I have to ask again to clear this up.

28 seconds at the very least, and it seems like in canon he doesn't even have a time limit since we can see him still ubering Heavy while his medi gun is offline.

Fair enough, but I meant the duration for the ubercharge canteens. Medic still needs some charge to bring out the actual ubercharge so I can at least see that being powerful enough to last long. Even with the duration, I've heard something about Medic being out of range breaking the ubercharge thingy. Do we assume that would work or would it just be considered Game Mechanics?

I am not sure if they can dodge Minigun ammo

Just like in the match against Queen and Berdly, the riders have the senses to dodge and deflect the danmaku projectiles heading straight for them. The main argument there was if they could handle a high amount of omnidirectional danmaku. The main difference here is that Heavy's minigun shoots in one direction only, making it way easier to dodge his minigun. This is the main reason why:

Spoiler: The Kamen Riders' Enhanced Senses and Extrasensory Perception Yap

Black Sun:
Enhanced Senses (Due to being incorporated with a grasshopper's genes, he most likely possessed the same characteristics of one. Grasshoper's sensory organs: the compound eye and antenna can provide a greater field of vision, as well as other information such as light intensity, humidity, vibration, wind velocity, and so on. Should be comparable to other Kaijins, who can sense Black Sun's presence over great distances), Additional Enhanced Senses (Black Eyes have a broad field of vision and can focus to see clearly from 800 meters away. He can detect even the smallest quantity of light, allowing him to function correctly even in dark places. The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense).

Shadow Moon:
Enhanced Senses (Due to being incorporated with a grasshopper's genes, he most likely possessed the same characteristics of one. Grasshoper's sensory organs: the compound eye and antenna can provide a greater field of vision, as well as other information such as light intensity, humidity, vibration, wind velocity, and so on. Sensed Black Sun's presence despite being imprisoned in an underground prison), Additional Enhanced Senses (Shadow Eyes have a broad field of vision and can focus to see clearly from 870 meters away. He can detect even the slightest amount of light, allowing him to demonstrate the same ability even in dark places. The Sensor Antennae on his head can detect subtle changes in the environment, such as air currents and temperature, as well as the source of the attack, allowing for swift evasion and defense).

Shared between both riders:
Extrasensory Perception (Alarm Point are extrasensory organs that sensitively perceive events that cannot be detected with the naked eye, such as signs of lurking in shadows and murderous intent, as well as impending dangers).

Miniguns are immune to Pyros M2 so I dont think they can deflect it

Pyro's M2, based on the profile, uses air manipulation and attack reflection to deflect bullets. What Shadow Moon is doing is using the Class M TK in a wide area to blow it away or deflect it back at Heavy, which should be possible. The force of the TK should be more than enough to do so. Another point of consensus is that if the riders get the jump on them first due to being out of each others' sights (which they have a high chance to, thanks to their sense and perception mentioned above), Shadow Moon starts off with his TK, which will blow away any and all equipment they have in their hands and themselves should they not have used their ubercharge canteens beforehand.

 

[ShionAH]

I mean if he just makes them unarmed with a flick of his fingers this doesnt seem fair, Heavy and Medic could hold on to their stuff with Uber but the TK seems unfair here so Idk

 

[Shadowslash125]

Just saying that only Shadow Moon has TK, Black Sun in his base kamen rider form (the one I'm using rn instead of the Creation King key) does not have TK, and they have to get several meters in range to even do so. Heavy and Medic would have tens of metres as range, so if the riders even get spotted, they do have to go through the hail of bullets from the former's minigun. Due to both riders having 50.9 MJs (a huge AP disadvantage in comparison to the mercs' massively higher ap), like a few stray bullets would put them under. Especially if Shadow Moon is the first to fall.

 

[ShionAH]

Oh so they have short range and low durability... well if Medic Ubers then the TK will be useless for like atleast 30 seconds, can he TK Heavy who isClass T when Ubered?

 

[Shadowslash125]

if Medic Ubers then the TK will be useless for like atleast 30 seconds, can he TK Heavy who isClass T when Ubered?

Wouldn't Medic need to charge first to use his ubercharge, or does he already have the necessary charge right from the get-go in matchups? If it's the former, then at the very least they still have their ubercharged canteens. Would those also give the same duration of 30 seconds?

As for TKing the Class T, I assume that telekinesis also factors in the user's LS, so I don't think Heavy is going to be affected by Shadow Moon's TK for its duration. However, he should still be able to TK the minigun's bullets from hitting the riders, so there's that. If Medic doesn't get ubercharged along with Heavy, the bugmen would get the idea to deal with Medic first, since he will still be susceptible to TK.

All in all, I can say having ubercharge into the mix means that the battle will take longer and whoever slips up loses. Though, since the fight takes place at the trenches, it does give ample cover to weave in and away from gunfire.

 

[ShionAH]

Wouldn't Medic need to charge first to use his ubercharge, or does he already have the necessary charge right from the get-go in matchups?

I mean he instantly did it in Meet the Medic just by flipping something, Idk I'd guess OP has to clarify.

About TK, throwing Medic wont stop Heavies ubercharge since it didnt stop in the cinematic

 

[Shadowslash125]

About TK, throwing Medic wont stop Heavies ubercharge since it didnt stop in the cinematic

I see, but at the very least they would have one less adversary to deal with should they successfully take care of Medic, along with not having anymore subsequent ubercharges for Heavy (unless they come from canteens).

 

[Catbowtie]

Wouldn't Medic need to charge first to use his ubercharge, or does he already have the necessary charge right from the get-go in matchups?

I mean he instantly did it in Meet the Medic just by flipping something, Idk I'd guess OP has to clarify.

This needs clarification? Which one is canonical to TF2?

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

I would like to point out that in Meet the Medic he was healing Heavy before we ever see them and he kept healing him for almost 2 minutes after the fact. So yeah he could've just had Uber charged during that time since he was constantly healing Heavy at a decreased rate due to a lack of baboon heart (even in-game the medi-gun charges uber at a faster rate if the target has a low heal rate EX back scratcher)

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Sorry for a lack of comments here. While I know the mercs pretty well, I know nothing about any Kamen Rider related

 

[Shadowslash125]

Sorry for a lack of comments here. While I know the mercs pretty well, I know nothing about any Kamen Rider related

Nah I'm here to handle rider related stuff no worries.

 

[Shadowslash125]

This needs clarification? Which one is canonical to TF2?

I would like to point out that in Meet the Medic he was healing Heavy before we ever see them and he kept healing him for almost 2 minutes after the fact. So yeah he could've just had Uber charged during that time since he was constantly healing Heavy at a decreased rate due to a lack of baboon heart (even in-game the medi-gun charges uber at a faster rate if the target has a low heal rate EX back scratcher)

Would this be sufficient for clarification? Also Shion what do you think of this?

 

[Catbowtie]

Okay, so the Medic needs to charge first to use his Uber-charge.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Okay, so the Medic needs to charge first to use his Uber-charge.

If so, then my argument stands.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Oh yeah, as for the question of how long the canteens can last. It has 3 charges each lasting 5 seconds. If Medic's medigun is in the upgraded form then his canteen can extend to Heavy as well.

So Medic's maximum amount is 15 seconds, Heavy's is 30. It takes 80 seconds to charge an uber without taking any damage.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Oh yeah, as for the question of how long the canteens can last. It has 3 charges each lasting 5 seconds. If Medic's medigun is in the upgraded form then his canteen can extend to Heavy as well.

So Medic's maximum amount is 15 seconds, Heavy's is 30. It takes 80 seconds to charge an uber without taking any damage.

So this would mean that if the riders survive for 45 seconds, they can defeat Heavy and Medic with Shadow Moon's TK. Due to the location, the trenches will aid in allowing them to avoid becoming cheese from Heavy's minigun along with their enhanced senses & extrasensory perception and the TK itself, which should still be able to blow away danmaku coming their way.

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

So this would mean that if the riders survive for 45 seconds, they can defeat Heavy and Medic with Shadow Moon's TK.

No, it only needs to be 30 seconds. 15 from Medic's canteen while healing Heavy and Heavy getting an additional 15 seconds from his own canteen (though Medic is completely vulnerable during this time)

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ah that does make it easier to outlast them.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bumpity Bump

 

[Detective_Blizzard]

Considering a complete lack of discourse on the other side, I'm just going to vote the Kamen Riders due to the TK and being skilled enough to avoid the Mercs for 30 seconds

 

[Shadowslash125]

I'm doing the same and voting for the Riders too.
Also the picture is dead

 

[GrayCraft_Dragon]

I think i'll be voting the riders

 

[EddisherSound]

Voting for the riders as well, don't see the mercs beating them without medic's Uber-charge

 

[TsukasayaEmmaDCD]

I think riders fra

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump, we just need two more votes left

 

[Shadowslash125]

Bump

 

[shootingrock]

Rider FRA

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ok just need one more vote left. Probably would be best if OP votes this so that we can continue.

 

[Catbowtie]

Then I'll go ahead and vote Riders For Reasons Above.

 

[IxaSaga]

KRs FRA. Edit: Oh wait lol

 

[Shadowslash125]

KRs FRA. Edit: Oh wait lol

Just a request. If possible, could you make the thread for Kamen Riders vs The Ninjas? New tourney OP would like a third party to do so rather than the both of us.

 

[IxaSaga]

Just a request. If possible, could you make the thread for Kamen Riders vs The Ninjas? New tourney OP would like a third party to do so rather than the both of us.

sure