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Dragon Ball AP Ratings Upgrade

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Well currently, this is only the case with certain moves, rather than being something commonplace. This is not the thread to spontaneously try to revise that
 
It also really doesn’t matter because Vegeta would just scale to 1/10 of his Oozaru state, whether his Galick Gun scales above his physicals or not doesn’t change that.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
No.

Stop using scaling chains, they don't belong here.
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That's a pretty weird statement. We can't use scaling chains for Dragon Ball?

LordTracer said:
Didn’t this all come from people questioning the notion of Vegeta scaling to 1/10 of his Oozaru form?
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LordTracer said:
It also really doesn’t matter because Vegeta would just scale to 1/10 of his Oozaru state, whether his Galick Gun scales above his physicals or not doesn’t change that.
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Bringing up the other issues with Vegeta is a way of addressing that backscaling him from his Oozaru state who is being scaled to a later version of Goku is potentially leading to an outlier situation for Vegeta.

CloverDragon03 said:
And nothing of the sort has been actually accepted outside of Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha, Cell's Solar Kamehameha, and other such exceptional cases (I believe the Tri-Beam and Neo Tri-Beam are the only other ones)
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Most other Kamehameha as well. It's been proven before multiple times. (Goku vs. Moro, Goku vs. Cell, Gohan vs. Cell, etc)
 
AguilaR202 said:
Special Ki attacks when charged up considerably never directly scaled to physicals, characters often rely on things such as KHH / SBC / LG / GG only after they were shown that their physical attacks couldn’t do much, ie: Goku vs Raditz, Vegeta vs KkK3 Goku, Vegeta va Final Form Freeza , Piccolo vs Cell round 2.

likewise instances where a character just swats away a special ki attack with just raw strength are meant to portray the overwhelming superiority of one character over the other.

I’m not saying that it is impossible to scale physicals to ‘ super attacks’ just that rather than this being the default assumption there needs to be some feats to back up that notion, clear examples Cell taking Piccolos light Grenade without Guarding, Freeza Kicking Vegetas final Galick Gun, SS3 Goku punching and deflecting Fat Boos KHH, etc.

Other examples of 1=1 correspondence with physical AP could be casual ki attacks because they seldom are portrayed as being superior if at all to basic hand to hand combat ie: Vegetas technique, Freezas deathball vs planet vegeta that despite being a special technique he performed it laughing his ass off and sitting on his floating chair.

Just saying that the idea of a special attack being threaded as = to physical stats all of the time is not remotely accurate with how they’re portrayed, it’s not the norm, and the gap between both stats should be acknowledged even if it’s just a 2x 3x times difference.
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Vegeta's garlic gun itself scales above, but his own personal scaling comes from both taking the kkx4 khh, spirit bomb and being 1/10 of his great ape



Then again, are we sure great ape falls into the linear category like kk and ssj? It may be more conservative to simply leave base Vegeta as it is while having great ape scale to the 180k in namek saga IF it's not linear
 
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Damage3245 said:
Bringing up the other issues with Vegeta is a way of addressing that backscaling him from his Oozaru state who is being scaled to a later version of Goku is potentially leading to an outlier situation for Vegeta.
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Except these two things don’t correlate at all. Whether Vegeta‘s physicals do or don’t scale to his Galick Gun doesn’t affect him backscaling from Oozaru.
 
Damage3245 said:
Most other Kamehameha as well. It's been proven before multiple times. (Goku vs. Moro, Goku vs. Cell, Gohan vs. Cell, etc)
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The ones it’s been proven for are the ones I’ve mentioned before, which have had their own threads. And personally, I don’t think it’s entirely appropriate to shift this thread to “which blast attacks don’t scale to physicals” or “does Galick Gun scale to physicals”
 
LordTracer said:
Yes. You can see it on the pages of Raditz, Gohan, Nappa, literally everyone who can become an Oozaru.
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Ok then, but the main issue people have I assume is that AP feats got massively buffed on the namek saga in relation to their PLs, back scaling from the 180k ape form will inflate base Vegeta as it's essentially back scaling from namek saga


But if it's agreeable, I have no issues
 
Jaakor48 said:
Ok then, but the main issue people have I assume is that AP feats got massively buffed on the namek saga in relation to their PLs, back scaling from the 180k ape form will inflate base Vegeta as it's essentially back scaling from namek saga


But if it's agreeable, I have no issues
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Yeah. Some people are in favor of that. Some people are not.
 
Damage3245 said:
Yeah. Some people are in favor of that. Some people are not.
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Well, I can completely understand the reluctance to back scale this way

Then maybe a compromise can be reached?

Since Vegeta, to my knowledge, is the only one with forms that has ties to both Saiyan saga and namek saga levels, allow his 180k ape form keep the scaling to namek and leave his base form as it is. If need be, leave a note explaining that this particular version of Vegeta has an unusual gap due to the huge feat difference in namek saga and Saiyan saga making back scaling lead to inflated values for everyone


just an idea
 
Jaakor48 said:
Well, I can completely understand the reluctance to back scale this way

Then maybe a compromise can be reached?

Since Vegeta, to my knowledge, is the only one with forms that has ties to both Saiyan saga and namek saga levels, allow his 180k ape form keep the scaling to namek and leave his base form as it is. If need be, leave a note explaining that this particular version of Vegeta has an unusual gap due to the huge feat difference in namek saga and Saiyan saga making back scaling lead to inflated values for everyone


just an idea
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I'm all for a compromise solution if one can be reached.
 
I don't really understand how is this a debate, if charged attacks just scaled to physicals then what is even the point of charged attacks?

Are we gonna scale Cell Saga Vegeta physicals to the Final Flash now? lol
 
Recon1511 said:
I don't really understand how is this a debate, if charged attacks just scaled to physicals then what is even the point of charged attacks?

Are we gonna scale Cell Saga Vegeta physicals to the Final Flash now? lol
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You should probably read through before coming to this conclusion that scaling to garlick gun is what propels Vegeta
 
Recon1511 said:
I don't really understand how is this a debate, if charged attacks just scaled to physicals then what is even the point of charged attacks?

Are we gonna scale Cell Saga Vegeta physicals to the Final Flash now? lol
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This isn’t the debate, actually. It’s a tangent that went on far longer than it should’ve and has already been mostly concluded.
 
Recon1511 said:
I don't really understand how is this a debate, if charged attacks just scaled to physicals then what is even the point of charged attacks?

Are we gonna scale Cell Saga Vegeta physicals to the Final Flash now? lol
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Good job on coming to a false conclusion and using an objectively false equivalent to debate this point. Galick Gun and Final Flash have an immeasurable gap, as one allows for Vegeta to damage people on a much higher caliber.
 
Does anyone have a site where Dragon Ball raws can be checked out?
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
There's a spanish site that has everything in japanese, I can't link the entire site, but just tell me which chapter you want raw and I can send you the volume in G.Drive
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Chapter 135 of Z, which is Chapter 329 of the overall series.
 
Should I also point out that Krillin should not be 6x Raditz with physicals or anything of the sort as he literally has a power level close to Raditz's?

His technique is said to use all he had, and was left exhausted afterwards. It's stated to be focused on Power, sacrificing Speed. The technique itself should be the thing that's 6x Raditz's AP, not Krillin himself. Krillin considered the Saibamen encounter (before they had the numbers) to be hard. Yamcha who is around Raditz's power level as per the chart above can go toe to toe with the Saibamen and the idea of Krillin's 1770 BP being 6x that without a special technique is absurd.

Tien who has a power level higher than even Krillin wasn't shown to be nearly that strong against a Saibamen, it even gets up after a beating from Tien.
Even one shotting one with casual techniques is considered impressive by Krillin himself.

Krillin should be comparable to Raditz. (If 1200 BP is considered to rival Raditz's 1500, there is no way 1770 would be 6x above it)
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Should I also point out that Krillin should not be 6x Raditz with physicals or anything of the sort as he literally has a power level close to Raditz's?

His technique is said to use all he had, and was left exhausted afterwards. It's stated to be focused on Power, sacrificing Speed. The technique itself should be the thing that's 6x Raditz's AP, not Krillin himself. Krillin considered the Saibamen encounter (before they had the numbers) to be hard. Yamcha who is around Raditz's power level as per the chart above can go toe to toe with the Saibamen and the idea of Krillin's 1770 BP being 6x that without a special technique is absurd.

Tien who has a power level than even Krillin wasn't shown to be nearly that strong against a Saibamen, it even gets up after a beating from Tien.
Even one shotting one with casual techniques is considered impressive by Krillin himself.

Krillin should be comparable to Raditz. (If 1200 BP is considered to rival Raditz's 1500, there is no way 1770 would be 6x above it)
Click to expand...
I agree with that.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Should I also point out that Krillin should not be 6x Raditz with physicals or anything of the sort as he literally has a power level close to Raditz's?

His technique is said to use all he had, and was left exhausted afterwards. It's stated to be focused on Power, sacrificing Speed. The technique itself should be the thing that's 6x Raditz's AP, not Krillin himself. Krillin considered the Saibamen encounter (before they had the numbers) to be hard. Yamcha who is around Raditz's power level as per the chart above can go toe to toe with the Saibamen and the idea of Krillin's 1770 BP being 6x that without a special technique is absurd.

Tien who has a power level higher than even Krillin wasn't shown to be nearly that strong against a Saibamen, it even gets up after a beating from Tien.
Even one shotting one with casual techniques is considered impressive by Krillin himself.

Krillin should be comparable to Raditz. (If 1200 BP is considered to rival Raditz's 1500, there is no way 1770 would be 6x above it)
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Is Zarbon's at least x3 multiplier consistent with the story btw?
 
Crobatman44 said:
Agreed.
Is Zarbon's at least x3 multiplier consistent with the story btw?
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Nope.

Zarbon has a power level of 23000, weaker than a Saiyan Saga Goku with a Triple Kaioken (24000)
Transformed Zarbon has a power level lower than 30000, weaker than Goku with a 4-times Kaioken (32000).

Transformed Zarbon (less than 30000) being three times stronger than Zarbon (23000) would imply Kaioken x4 is three times stronger than someone around Kaioken x3, or Kaioken x2 (16000) if you don't want to say 23000 v 24000 is basically comparable.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Nope.

Zarbon has a power level of 23000, weaker than a Saiyan Saga Goku with a Triple Kaioken (24000)
Transformed Zarbon has a power level lower than 30000, weaker than Goku with a 4-times Kaioken (32000).

Transformed Zarbon (less than 30000) being three times stronger than Zarbon (23000) would imply Kaioken x4 is three times stronger than someone around Kaioken x3, or Kaioken x2 (16000) if you don't want to say 23000 v 24000 is basically comparable.
Click to expand...
Zarbon was stated to increase mainly in strength. Maybe I'm misremembering it.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Should I also point out that Krillin should not be 6x Raditz with physicals or anything of the sort as he literally has a power level close to Raditz's?

His technique is said to use all he had, and was left exhausted afterwards. It's stated to be focused on Power, sacrificing Speed. The technique itself should be the thing that's 6x Raditz's AP, not Krillin himself. Krillin considered the Saibamen encounter (before they had the numbers) to be hard. Yamcha who is around Raditz's power level as per the chart above can go toe to toe with the Saibamen and the idea of Krillin's 1770 BP being 6x that without a special technique is absurd.

Tien who has a power level higher than even Krillin wasn't shown to be nearly that strong against a Saibamen, it even gets up after a beating from Tien.
Even one shotting one with casual techniques is considered impressive by Krillin himself.

Krillin should be comparable to Raditz. (If 1200 BP is considered to rival Raditz's 1500, there is no way 1770 would be 6x above it)
Click to expand...

Agreed. Another example to add to the list of a technique being above a users normal capability.
 
Didn’t someone bring up issues with the notion of 23rd Budokai Goku scaling to BoZ Goku?
 
The new version of the sandbox looks a lot better to me. The only thing I'm unsure about is backscaling end of DB Goku to beginning of Z Goku.
 
Damage3245 said:
The new version of the sandbox looks a lot better to me. The only thing I'm unsure about is backscaling end of DB Goku to beginning of Z Goku.
Click to expand...
They're both listed to be under a PL of 413, and Piccolo Jr tanked a Kamehameha which had a PL of 1,000 (greater than BoZ Goku) and was able to continue the to fight evenly against Goku
 
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