DC Cosmology General Discussion

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I made this thread just to discuss DC's cosmology in general, not to propose any changes, feel free to comment about any concerns, questions, or things of interest.

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808 @Eficiente @PrinceofPein

Is this a good idea or not?

 

[PrinceofPein]

So far as they do not turn it into some chopping block for people who worked on the cosmology, it is fine.

 

[Phoenks]

I'll pose an interesting question, I guess.

How would Ultima's proposed tiering system affect the tiering of DC Comics?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I'll pose an interesting question, I guess.

How would Ultima's proposed tiering system affect the tiering of DC Comics?

Based on what he said “God” from Matteis Cosmology would most likely be 0. The rest is confusing but given the context, most of the top tiers would maybe return to 1-A, perhaps some even High 1-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that transcending dimensions simply catapults characters to tier 1-A. What is the rationale for anything higher than that?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

So far as they do not turn it into some chopping block for people who worked on the cosmology, it is fine.

No, no I just want a thread where people can debate and ask questions without getting too heated

Or if someone has some new information or considerations, things like that

Right now I'm trying to sift through reconciling Countdown and other New 52 strands like Final Crisis

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I'll pose an interesting question, I guess.

How would Ultima's proposed tiering system affect the tiering of DC Comics?

I haven't read too much into it, what's the gist?

All I'm aware of is he's separating between dimensional tiering (quantitative superiority) and reality to fiction transcendence (qualitative superiority?)

There's a lot of reality to fiction shenanigans in DC

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I thought that transcending dimensions simply catapults characters to tier 1-A. What is the rationale for anything higher than that?

For Tier 1, Ultima wants to move higher cardinalities to a new sub-tier of High 1-B called High 1-B+, delete Low 1-A, and repurpose 1-A as a tier for transcending dimensions entirely while also equating instances of reality-fiction relationships to 1-A layers instead of dimensional jumps. Consequently, High 1-A will be repurposed as a tier for transcendences superior in nature even to transcending dimensions and reality-fiction relationships.

As for Tier 0, Ultima wants to repurpose it into a tier to classify a specific type of being he calls a "Monad" that's seen somewhat regularly in verses that deal with ineffability, as he believes its current definition as a tier for things superior in nature to High 1-A doesn't justify its existence as a separate tier from High 1-A. Further explanation can be found in this post.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I think that he seems to make it too easy to reach tier 0 then. I would prefer if we keep tiers Low 1-A and 1-A+ in order to not lump together too many different scales of power.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Hmm. I think that he seems to make it too easy to reach tier 0 then. I would prefer if we keep tiers Low 1-A and 1-A+ in order to not lump together too many different scales of power.

It works based more so conceptual and not mathematics. It downscales verses such as SCP, WoD, Unsong, etc…

Plus, 0 is being transcendent of any system. Not at all easy to get, still within context since not every verse has a Monad equivalent. What he suggests of quantitive makes sense in my honest opinion. Very few things actually transcend the entire concept of dimensionality.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am still uneasy with diminishing our amount of tiers though. With the separation of quantitative infinity and qualitative transcendence, if anything we seem to need more of them afterwards, at least to cover our current areas of quantitative infinity.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Okay. I am still uneasy with diminishing our amount of tiers though. With the separation of quantitative infinity and qualitative transcendence, if anything we seem to need more of them afterwards, at least to cover our current areas of quantitative infinity.

I forgot if he did mention it but if a Cosmology caps at 12D whether sptail or not. Transcending concepts with context and setting only applies to the setting and thus wouldn't naturally get 1-A. I mean High 1-B+ replaces Low 1-A with dimensional jumps with infinite sets thus unless there is something to suggest infinite then it works.

That's why I feel like it works. Nevertheless, we should wait.

 

[Eseseso]

Hmm. I think that he seems to make it too easy to reach tier 0 then. I would prefer if we keep tiers Low 1-A and 1-A+ in order to not lump together too many different scales of power.

Honestly I think we could do without 1-A+. Confusing tier IMO.

 

[Antvasima]

We need something comparative for defining ascending levels of infinity.

 

[Eseseso]

We need something comparative for defining ascending levels of infinity.

I understand, but it feels so confusing.

Like, transcending most tier 1 stuff gets you a new tier (High 1-B to Low 1-A to 1-A), but transcending a 1-A doesn't get you to the next tier.

Then again my general tier 1 knowledge is rather limited.

Also I'm glad Ultima is removing layers for Tier 0.

 

[Antvasima]

We simply ran out of tiering name space at that particular spot, and had to come up with something to define it. Hopefully Ultima will use a better term in his new tiering system.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I understand, but it feels so confusing.

Like, transcending most tier 1 stuff gets you a new tier (High 1-B to Low 1-A to 1-A), but transcending a 1-A doesn't get you to the next tier.

1-A is more like 1-B in that regard, as transcending it gives you one layer deeper into the hierarchy.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

For Tier 1, Ultima wants to move higher cardinalities to a new sub-tier of High 1-B called High 1-B+, delete Low 1-A, and repurpose 1-A as a tier for transcending dimensions entirely while also equating instances of reality-fiction relationships to 1-A layers instead of dimensional jumps. Consequently, High 1-A will be repurposed as a tier for transcendences superior in nature even to transcending dimensions and reality-fiction relationships.

As for Tier 0, Ultima wants to repurpose it into a tier to classify a specific type of being he calls a "Monad" that's seen somewhat regularly in verses that deal with ineffability, as he believes its current definition as a tier for things superior in nature to High 1-A doesn't justify its existence as a separate tier from High 1-A. Further explanation can be found in this post.

So what's the difference between High 1-B+ and Low 1-A?

Reality to fiction transcendences in general would be 1-A?

Is Tier 0 being Monad? Is that a reference to Spinoza?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

So what's the difference between High 1-B+ and Low 1-A?

Low 1-A is just our current term for uncountably infinite dimensions, which will be entirely moved to High 1-B+ under the new system.

Reality to fiction transcendences in general would be 1-A?

Yes.

Is Tier 0 being Monad? Is that a reference to Spinoza?

Tier 0 will be reserved for characters with total transcendence over both quantitative and qualitative superiorities, as opposed to 1-A and High 1-A, which merely transcend some qualities while still operating on higher ones. Such characters have no potentiality, being purely real and in no way possible, and cannot be harmed or surpassed in any way.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Low 1-A is just our current term for uncountably infinite dimensions, which will be entirely moved to High 1-B+ under the new system.

Yes.

Tier 0 will be reserved for characters with total transcendence over both quantitative and qualitative superiorities, as opposed to 1-A and High 1-A, which merely transcend some qualities while still operating on higher ones. Such characters have no potentiality, being purely real and in no way possible, and cannot be harmed or surpassed in any way.

I see, that's informative thanks

In that case Ultima's new standards would indeed put DC at 1-A, reality to fiction shenanigans are a staple of the franchise at this point

The monkey in Limbo comes to mind

 

[Eseseso]

Low 1-A is just our current term for uncountably infinite dimensions, which will be entirely moved to High 1-B+ under the new system.

So it is currently to High 1-B what Low 1-C (5-D) is to 2-A?

Tier 0 will be reserved for characters with total transcendence over both quantitative and qualitative superiorities, as opposed to 1-A and High 1-A, which merely transcend some qualities while still operating on higher ones. Such characters have no potentiality, being purely real and in no way possible, and cannot be harmed or surpassed in any way.

I support this.

Tier 0 should have never had layers.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Tier 0 should have never had layers.

I guess it's being reserved for these concepts of the Absolute or God, like the "One" in Platonism

 

[Spinoirr]

Anyways I feel like 1-A will have lots of stomp matches due to the fact a lot of people won't know the infinite gap in power between them

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Anyways I feel like 1-A will have lots of stomp matches due to the fact a lot of people won't know the infinite gap in power between them

I don't think that's the case. There's always a winner in mind for people even when putting two characters in the same tier. Same tier =/= same level of power.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

0 - Monad/Aeon-Teleos(Gnostics/Philosophy), The One(Platonism/Neoplatoism), Nirvana/Buddhahood(Buddhism), Ein Sof(Kabbalah), God(Abrahamic Religion), Parabrahman(Hindu), etc….

Does Ultima intend it to be Monad equivalent? If so, those examples could work for 0.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

0 - Monad/Aeon-Teleos(Gnostics/Philosophy), The One(Platonism/Neoplatoism), Nirvana/Buddhahood(Buddhism), Ein Sof(Kabbalah), God(Abrahamic Religion), Parabrahman(Hindu), etc….

Does Ultima intend it to be Monad equivalent? If so, those examples could work for 0.

Tiering religions is not allowed, and I could also poke a lot of holes in a bunch of those things you mentioned.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Tiering religions is not allowed, and I could also poke a lot of holes in a bunch of those things you mentioned.

Religion puts perspective on those faces but nevertheless, those entities still exists above their religious superstition and dogma. More so, however, they all are Monad equivalent.

So, if we discount the religious aspect wouldn't they qualify if they are Monad equivalent? For example, Ultima has been very much in the idea of God from Matteis Cosmology which is meant to be Parabrahman equivalent and is heavily Hindu based. That entity exists across all religions and isn't defined by it but it's a Monad equivalent. So is it specifically Monad's definition or its equivalent? Not every verse mentions of Monad as a direct statement. Like that entity isn't called Monad nevertheless we use it as one of the examples for 0 because it defines what Monad is. Plus Monad is technically religious in a certain way unless we only take the philosophical point which is a little different.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Tiering religions is not allowed, and I could also poke a lot of holes in a bunch of those things you mentioned.

If you didn't get my point. I was asking if it's specifically just context base on the character's nature due to being similar to Monad. Could we use Monad’s equivalent or just what I mentioned earlier about specifically how they are similar to the idea of Monad?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

guys this is derailing, the thread is about dc cosmology not ultima staff thread

 

[Excellence616]

guys this is derailing, the thread is about dc cosmology not ultima staff thread

Ultima stuff might affect Dc cosmology

 

[Samael_010]

Based on what he said “God” from Matteis Cosmology would most likely be 0. The rest is confusing but given the context, most of the top tiers would maybe return to 1-A, perhaps some even High 1-A.

Im curious, which cosmology reach H1A?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Im curious, which cosmology reach H1A?

I don’t know how they will reach a conclusion here(with DT rework of Ultima revision) but the Void in Vertigo may be one. Given it makes any size of quantity and quality of Creations down to 0, more matter the infinite hierarchies of each Creation and all Creations.

 

[Spinoirr]

We really need to update the profiles powers and abilities

 

[Samael_010]

Silver City Non dual?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Silver City Non dual?

Hell.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Seems like the Sphere of the Gods exists within the timestream, there could be an infinite amount of Spheres within the frames of the timestream

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Pralaya could be an avatar of the Great Darkness too

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

The OmNiVeRsE!

 

[Samael_010]

Pralaya could be an avatar of the Great Darkness too

Fax, what yall opinion on Lucifer being the Great Darkness