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JJK AP Downgrade
- Thread starter Arkenis
- Start date
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EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,983
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It does depending on hight and speed it falls.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,983
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So we are going to assume Jogo was holding back?
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- Thread starter
- #604
Didn't link, but Jogo's meteor isn't an output of CE, it's a physically constructed object. Also you're unironically arguing Jogo can control the force released by a meteor's impact.
And we see Jogo's meteor wasn't very high and thus didn't cause the destruction the fanbook talks about right? Also the speed of his meteor can't be very high as Panda and Kusakabe both moved out the way and ofc Jogo as no reason to hold back speed so the meteors just shit and the fanbook is likely talking about a hypothetical situation where Jogo drops it from a much higher height.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,983
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Sure
Well I might agree with this. Let's calculate with manga feat then.
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- Thread starter
- #606
I believe with the PE it's like large town level
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,983
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- #608
yeah it's what makes his meteor low 7-B
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,983
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Is there anyone scales to it (besides if we consider Sukuna does by sustainable damage)
- 14,471
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- Thread starter
- #610
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 14,983
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I guess atleast Jogo will get that rating then as an AP Technique.
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Regarding the meteor feat, I feel it's weird to consider the guidebook or whatever statement implausible when it's currently rated as city level and doesn't even completely destroy the building it lands on. Like if we can't take the statement of it being able to destroy a town (Which should be smaller than a city if my understand of what a town is isn't correct. With Shibuya being a city instead of a town), then I dunno how we can also give it city levels of power if it can't even fully destroy the building hit by the meteor.
I admit that it seems weird to believe Jogo can concentrate the power of Maximum Meteor to affect a smaller area, but given the guide states that he can reduce a town to ash rather than it will or does seems to imply he has control over whether or not it can reduce a town to ash. Otherwise the use of "can" seems redundant. I think it seems fine to assume Jogo can minimize to destructive capacity while keeping the AP up given he can drop a city level meteor on a high-rise building and only result in relatively minor damage (I say minor loosely. The building was broken in placed and tilted over. But irl, said impact would've reduced the entire building to pebbles).
I won't push for this, but I don't see why it's so crazy to say he could minimize the destruction to not vaporize part of a city when he was able to stop a Tier 7 meteor from blowing a skyscraper to smithereens.
I admit that it seems weird to believe Jogo can concentrate the power of Maximum Meteor to affect a smaller area, but given the guide states that he can reduce a town to ash rather than it will or does seems to imply he has control over whether or not it can reduce a town to ash. Otherwise the use of "can" seems redundant. I think it seems fine to assume Jogo can minimize to destructive capacity while keeping the AP up given he can drop a city level meteor on a high-rise building and only result in relatively minor damage (I say minor loosely. The building was broken in placed and tilted over. But irl, said impact would've reduced the entire building to pebbles).
I won't push for this, but I don't see why it's so crazy to say he could minimize the destruction to not vaporize part of a city when he was able to stop a Tier 7 meteor from blowing a skyscraper to smithereens.
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- #613
I think this is how the calc should be done. Manga shows the opposite so a hypothetical could be fine as a possibly yk
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I just think it was Jogo controlling the area of effect to not vaporize half a city since that'd be overkill. The fact that the description is so far off from what happened and states that it "can" cause that type of damage implies Jogo has control over it being able to cause that much damage. Keep in mind that the people he was working with were still IN the city (I.e. Kenjaku and Mahito). I don't think he'd want to catch them in the attack if he needs them to accomplish his plan for Cursed Spirits to take over.
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- #615
..... Overkill against Sukuna? Come on guys.
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He just wants to hit Sukuna to recruit him onto his side. Why would he go absolutely all out and risk vaporizing his own teammates? He clearly felt confident in his ability to hit Sukuna even with the AoE the meteor showed since he believed Sukuna was hit.
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- #617
why we assuming Mahito, his main teammate, the guy who has low-high to low godly regen would be effected by being vaporized? Dagon's ass died, and he doesn't care about the humans, Kenjaku was underground so unless we assuming the destruction would reach several meters then your argument isn't making sense.
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Mahito sure, but Kenjaku is certainly at risk. And yes, it can reach underground. The current calc quite literally assumes it destroys 40 meters of elevation. And not just everything on the surface. I haven't read the arc in a while, but hadn't Kenjaku at that point also left the subway stations?
Even if you wanted to argue Kenjaku was far deeper underground, Jogo wouldn't even KNOW if Kenjaku was still there. It's not like he has a third eye over watching Kenjaku's current whereabouts.
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- #619
Again as I said, the method I suggested fits a lot more for what would happen when describing a meteor. This need to calc the fanbook's description and then argue that Jogo also held back the meteor cuz he for some reason didn't wanna potentially hurt or kill humans is also unfounded and heavily downplays Kenjaku too.
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I'm not arguing Jogo's worried about hurting normal as dudes who aren't part of his plan. He made it quite clear he WANTS to kill humans and goes out of his way to do so. I'm saying he wouldn't want to risk vaporizing his teammate with a Maximum Technique. It's not like Jogo knows if his meteor would ******* vaporize Kenjaku or not. How would he even know that? Did Kenjaku even once show his power to Jogo? All Jogo knows is that Kenjaku is important to his plan and is going to help him with his goal of having Cursed Spirits taking over as the dominant race. Just because he thinks it would've put his teammates at risk doesn't mean it actually would've. What matters is what he believed would happen. Not what actually would if he let that much damage occur.
I'm also not saying he held back the meteors AP. I'm saying he minimized area of effect (I haven't read the fight in a while, but was Jogo even trying to kill Sukuna? I thought he fed Sukuna fingers so he would join their side since he knew he'd be a valuable asset to their cause).
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- #621
His teammates are? Dagon's dead, Hanami's dead, Mahito can survive. So who else?
When was this shown?
He was trying to land one hit on Sukuna, and pulled out his best tech. How does he even minimize the aoe of a meteor? You think he can now restrict the shockwave from it? Like honestly think about this, there is no "minimizing" a meteor's aoe unless its directly stated.
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Why are you acting obtuse to the fact Jogo's considers Kennaku a member of his team. He NEEDS Kenjaku's hp, and they have an arrangement. Just because Jogo believes him to be human doesn't matter. The two are WORKING together. Not to mention, with how we currently treat Mahito's regen (which got downgraded not too long ago, no?), it would be believable for Jogo to think he can't come back from being vaporized (since I think we currently treat his regen as being able to come back from being blow to little pieces iirc).
Why would common sense need to be shown. The guy he's working with is in the city he's in. Why would he purposely make the AoE large enough to vaporize him?
Dude, no clue. It's almost like he used a city level attack and somehow didnt even completely destroy a building it came in contact with. If he can make a tier 7 attack not completely destroy a single building, why can't he make a tier 7 attack not vaporize an entire ******* town. Either we assume he can minimize damage as this is fiction and common practice, or we downgrade Maximum meteor to tier 8.
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- #623
I already addressed Kenjaku point so.
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All you've said is that he wouldn't care and that Kennaku was underground. I addressed both. Are you gonna respond to the rest of my comment now or are you gonna duck it? If we're gonna treat Jogo as unable to control the AoE of his meteor, I think we should downgrade it to tier 8 for being unable to completely destroy a building.
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I'd like to leave a second comment apologizing btw. I admittedly was aggressive in my last couple comments. It just seems like it's hard to get a point across here without getting clowned on unless you go for the throat. I'll be more careful with my future comments.
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- #626
I think this downplays Kenjaku, to think Jogo would think Kenjaku could get harmed or die to it. And Jogo's meteor's tier isn't because of destruction, its due to it creating an earthquake. I will remind you that the bh calc Kenjaku withstood has him
No it's fine. It is hard to get a point across here, I want the verse's tiers to be based off the most accurate possible conclusion we can reach.
I don't think making the assumptions that Jogo
1: Was worried for Kenjaku when using his max tech. There's no real evidence that's been provided, and we've seen Jogo threaten the guy before, I have a tiny belief that Jogo would truly care about Kenjaku.
2: The idea that Jogo can somehow restrain/hold back the aoe of the meteor is also unfounded and assumes he purposely held back the meteor's KE being released omnidirectional for several kms. Does the panel truly portray the idea that he did? Has the manga ever implied Jogo can do that? Or is the meteor just too slow and not high enough to replicate what the fanbook says?
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Yes, but Jogo never SAW Kenjaku withstand a Black Hole. He doesn't know how strong Kenjaku is because he never fights anyone. He makes Jogo and the others do all the work for him because he's intentionally secretive. It just means Jogo would be underestimating Kenjaku because he doesn't know how strong he is, and never fights for himself. I'm not saying it WOULD kill Kenjaku. Just that Jogo believes it would kill or hurt him.
Also, it doesn't matter how it gets the tier. It's still outputting Tier 7 power. Irl, that would cause the building it directly impacted to turn to dust instantaneously. Yet it only knocks the building off its base and causes rather minor damage. This means Jogo is capable of directing the force or rather minimizing damage to an area as it was concentrated into causing an earthquake rather than vaporizing the building it hit head on instantly. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Thanks for understand. Much appreciated.
He threatened Kenjaku because he believe Kenjaku set them up for a suicide mission. He told them to hold Gojo in place for an entire minute. Jogo believed they'd be massacred. Of course he would threaten him. A better question would be why Jogo doesn't care about the safety of someone he is allied with and needs to accomplish his mission? Even if he has hatred for Kenjaku for being "human" doesn't matter when said human is an exception since he's working with them as they have a deal to help each other. He believes Kenjaku is going to help Jogo succeed in his goal of taking over as the dominant race. He's not going to carelessly try to murder him.
Yet he held back the affects it had on the literal building it came in contact with
Your argument is unironically "Yeah, Jogo can control Maximum Meteor so Tier 7 power doesn't obliterates a building, but he can't control Maximum Meteor's Tier 7 power from obliterating a city"
What he did in the story is actually MORE difficult and outrageous than what I'm proposing, and yet you still disagree despite buying into a Tier 7 meteor not blowing up a skyscraper. It makes 0 sense. It's like claiming a nuclear bomb will destroy a city, but won't destroy the house at the epicenter of the nuclear bomb. It's quite clear he has control over how the force is directed. Which is further cemented by the fact that the guide explicitly states that it CAN turn a City to Ash rather than it WILL. Because it CAN destroy a city under the circumstances that he allows it. It wouldn't mention can if it wasn't something he couldn't control at all.
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- #628
I want proof Jogo thinks this.
I sent the panel, that was not minor damage, most the buildings that were hit were destroyed. And how would an earthquake turn buildings to dust instantly? As I said this assumes way too much. Meteors cause tremors as it did but also cause a massive crater, you'd be arguing he converted the KE solely into causing an earthquake, I think the meteor is just too slow and wasn't thrown high enough to cause such destruction.
I'll put it this way, my interpretation merely requires Jogo to have dropped the meteor from a much higher height to do what the fanbook says it can do, that's it.
Your interpretation suggests that Jogo has full control over the meteor's KE released and can direct it into an earthquake instead, that is blatantly granting Jogo physics manipulation, something he has zero showing for.
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Lmao, with PE its barely small town level
Ain't there a very big problem with this now that all mid and high tiers are capped at below supersonic?
The meteor is moving at 3000 m/s per second in the calc yet mid tiers like panda were able to move out of the way of it when it was directly above them
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Why would he think he COULD or even RISK it? He's never once seen Kenjaku fights and has only ever been ordered to fight under him and set things up for him.
The buildings were only lightly "destroyed" the building it actually hit wasn't completely vaporized like it should be when hit by a nuclear level attack.
If you hit a building with a meteor carrying Megatons worth of power, the building would blow up into billions of unrecognizable pieces and fly everywhere. It would just put a hole in the building and only slightly tilt the building over. Nor would the buildings nearby be left in tact. Conservation of energy would make it impossible for the building the meteor hit and buildings nearby to receive as little damage as they did. Look at building caught in a nuclear explosion to see what would realistically happen. Even from hundreds of meters away, buildings would be reduced to small fragments. Let alone at the epicenter. So either Maximum Meteor is Tier 8, or the destruction it causes can be controlled. It's quite clearly the latter.
Or it's just a case that AP =/= Destructive Capacity. Vs wiki quite literally has an entire page dedicated to this. It doesn't matter how Jogo reduced the damage, because he's been SHOWN to.
Your interpretation isn't possible unless you also agree that the meteor dropped on Shibuya is only Tier 8 at most.
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- #631
Indeed. I thought this calc only calced the earthquake that happened. But I guess the speed would factor in
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I don't think they're saying that the blog used KE for the earthquake. Cuz I don't see KE being used in the blog. Might be wrong tho
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- #633
No. If a meteor is going very slow as this one was, then the KE would also be much less and therefore the destruction would also be less severe. That's why we see less destruction.
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It carried the energy to cause a Tier 7 ******* earthquake man. That's not possible irl. It can't cause an earthquake when hitting a building and NOT cause the building to fragment into billions of tiny pieces. Conservation of energy wouldn't let that happen. The meteor straight up HITS the building directly. What you're suggesting is far from scientifically possible in any universe.
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- #635
We can scrap the feat entirely then.
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If ya'll agree with it, I'm fine with it. Though I personally think we should just ignore the fact it doesn't destroy the building since it's quite common for Attack Potency to not dictate destructive capacity. Vs wiki even has a rule that poor destructive capacity showing isn't proof of low ap. Just seems clear imo that he can control his own attacks to not have a huge AoE that obliterates everything around it. Thus why the fan book uses the word CAN as I've stated before.
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That statement is referring to something completely inapplicable to this.
It's saying if someone can hurt a character that did x feat then they scale to their tier despite not having a feat on that level.
It really isn't clear whatsoever that he can control the power of his meteor considering it's a creation feat.
It's even more wack when you consider he was going all out against Sukuna in this specific instance and holding back would make zero sense
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Fair enough. But I think this is a case where it would be applicable considering it was intended to hurt Sukuna, and performed a Tier 7 feat, but just didn't cause realistic damage to things on the surface. There's a LOT of feats like that in fiction due to energy of conservation not occurring with most fictional feats. otherwise almost every attack in JJK would be causing explosions that obliterates everything around them once they hit 8-A range.
It's an attack created from his own CE. I don't get why the idea of holding back AoE is such a big deal in a fictional setting when even the fanbook implies he can control the affects of the attack.
You guys make it seem as though I was saying he was holding back AP. He output ALL of his AP. He simply reduced AoE. He output Megatons of AP in a concentrated area. It's not like he reduced the AP of the meteor. He's not "holding back". Just reducing area of effect.
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