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I become Propellus' nemesis (Krypto AP nerf)

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Propellus said:
I was thinking of the consequences would come around if we're going to just have circular arguments back and forth without any solid conclusion. But I suppose this could work.
Click to expand...
It's going to be based on staff decision anyways. The faster we get to that the more efficient it'd be and we wouldn't waste our time.
Continuing the argument will dilute the arguments into nonsense eventually.
Propellus said:
That would require me to at least find some of the distance that was affected to properly calculate the earthquake feat as this took place in the Brazilian Rainforest. But I'll ask a CGM if it's possible.
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This can actually be done easily mate. Assume the mountain in the distance that has rocks fall off as an actual mountain (because it is) and assume it is the minimum mountain size like everyone does in this wiki. Look at the common feats for mountain busting and look at the width and height used there.
Now that you have it, do some pixel scaling of it's height and of the height of the panel and then use angular sizing to get the distance to it. Finish it off by adding the radius of the mountain to the resulted distance and you've got your earthquake radius. Pick a magnitude like 6-7 and do the calc.
Propellus said:
Yeah, fair enough.
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I just had a realization that i seriously don't truly care about this to argue about it for days so it'd be best if we just skipped to inevitable thing that would have happened at the end anyways.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
@Propellus and @Arceus0x in this thread:

Click to expand...

Naw; I perceive it differently

kimetsu-no-yaiba-tengen-uzui.gif
 
As for my serious input;
I agree with the OP's decision to downgrade the verse tier 6 for two reasons, and here's my rephrased explanation:

(first Reason)​
  • Firstly, the scene in question was clearly intended as a joke
    • And should not be taken seriously.
    • The statement is an obvious vague one and unexplained
    • Therefore, it does not warrant a high rating.
From Prop's view:
The feat has a possibly rating because of the reason above: If the scene is indeed a joke and not meant to be taken seriously, it could be argued that the feat does not deserve a definite tier rating. In such cases, assigning a “possibly” rating could be a reasonable approach.

My own view:
I personally don't think an outlier should be given a rating due to these requirements:
  • Is it a big jump or drop in power? | Yes
  • Is it a unique or exceptional incident? | Unique
  • Is the event unexplained and unjustified? | Unexplained
  • Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? | Yes
  • Does the event break with the narrative of the work? | Yes
We don't give ratings to outlier feats. If the scene in question was intended as a comedic moment or not meant to be taken seriously within the context of the story, it may not be appropriate to assign a serious tier rating based on that scene alone. Let alone possibly rating is still deemed to imply that it is not "outlier".

(second Reason)​
  • Secondly, this particular feat is an outlier compared to the rest of the feats in the series, which are consistently rated at tier 8.
    • Such a significant jump from tier 8 to tier 6 indicates a substantial disparity.
    • Consequently, it is not reasonable to assign a rating to an outlier.
    • Additionally, the subsequent feats that align with the prior ones in terms of rating.
My own view:
If the feat in question significantly deviates from the established pattern or power scale of the verse and does not align with the majority of other feats, it could be considered an outlier. From a mathematical perspective, the gap between tier 8 and tier 6-C is enormous. It can be argued that the outlier feat falls far outside the expected range and is statistically significant.

So put me in agreement for OP.
 
Arceus0x said:
This can actually be done easily mate. Assume the mountain in the distance that has rocks fall off as an actual mountain (because it is) and assume it is the minimum mountain size like everyone does in this wiki. Look at the common feats for mountain busting and look at the width and height used there.
Now that you have it, do some pixel scaling of it's height and of the height of the panel and then use angular sizing to get the distance to it. Finish it off by adding the radius of the mountain to the resulted distance and you've got your earthquake radius. Pick a magnitude like 6-7 and do the calc.
Click to expand...
Eyeballing the calc with your instructions, it appears to occur that I have High 6-C results from this, even then I don't think it may be correct
 
No, like really, I actually experimented the calc based off of your instructions and got those results. And I don't think they're correct. You want me to put that into a blog?
 
Propellus said:
No, like really, I actually experimented the calc based off of your instructions and got those results. And I don't think they're correct. You want me to put that into a blog?
Click to expand...
Absolutely, that's the whole point. I wanna see the calc with my own eyes and whether it garners that tier cause sometimes earthquake feats are very screwy. If you do have a high 6-C result then idk, i guess you could try and upgrade the verse then, i won't try and argue against it because, like i said before, i don't care enough for that. My issue is with the moon feat which i just think doesn't exist. What you have now is a legitimate feat.
 
Propellus said:
No, like really, I actually experimented the calc based off of your instructions and got those results. And I don't think they're correct. You want me to put that into a blog?
Click to expand...
I saw the calc you're making. Don't go to angsize calculators and stuff, use this
  • Distance from point of view to object = object size * panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels*2*tan(70deg/2)]
 
Arceus0x said:
I saw the calc you're making. Don't go to angsize calculators and stuff, use this
  • Distance from point of view to object = object size * panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels*2*tan(70deg/2)]
Click to expand...
Now it's Low 6-B
 
Also nah this is definitely not above 700km heck they aren't even 1.5km away from the perspective so that should be nerfed majorly cause even the area affected wouldn't be that much

You should be using this since the radius is less than 60km:

r < 60km: In this case the formula is (Magnitude at distance) + 0.0238*r = Richter Magnitude of Earthquake
 
Here it should be this
1090.1m + 1165.4512m = 2255.5512m

(6) + 0.0238*2.2555512 = 6.05368211856

Energy = 10^(1.5 x 6.05368211856 + 4.8) = 7.5949195e+13 joules or 18.152293260038242 Kilotons of TNT (Town level)


This was still done pretty damn casually by him just growling
 
Also FYI since the space suit triples his strength he'd scale to 54.4568797801 Kilotons of TNT (Town level+) with it
 
welp, idk what goes on but either way i think we should move on to phase 2 of my proposal, put out our arguments for both sides and just have the mods make a final decision
 
Arceus0x said:
welp, idk what goes on but either way i think we should move on to phase 2 of my proposal, put out our arguments for both sides and just have the mods make a final decision
Click to expand...
I missed everything before the calc portion after my initial vomments what were the proposals?
 
Now that I think about it, it's down to that we could still use the moon statement but instead downgrade it to Mag 3 or 4 or keep it the way it is. Or either just At least 7-C on it's own.
 
Last edited:
Dalesean027 said:
I missed everything before the calc portion after my initial vomments what were the proposals?
Click to expand...
Arceus did propose this piece of the text.
Arceus0x said:
I propose 2 things.
1. Calc the earthquake feat you had there first. The jungle one. It could support your arguments properly since it's way higher than anything shown before. (ALREADY HANDLED)
2. Once you're done let's carefully write out our arguments in separate long messages and let staff read them and come to a proper conclusion. (?)
Click to expand...
But on a second thought, I had mixed feelings since I was thinking that either we can still use the moon statement but instead downgrade it to a lower magnitude or wait what the others might think of the current state. Or rather just upgrade them to just 7-C
 
Propellus said:
Arceus did propose this piece of the text.

But on a second thought, I had mixed feelings since I was thinking that either we can still use the moon statement but instead downgrade it to a lower magnitude or wait what the others might think of the current state. Or rather just upgrade them to just 7-C
Click to expand...
Well that's still dependent on the choice they still choose to take the statements context seriously and still accept the use of it in general even if it is for a lower tiering
 
I'll get another mod to check out the final analysis then
 
I agree with LordGriffon who seems to be in more favor of Propellus' side.
 
I will do so as well, even though I have mixed opinions at this rate.
 
Overall, my thoughts are as follows (please remember that this are final thoughts, not meant for continuing the argument but to summarize what we believe is the case and so that staff can evaluate it in an organized manner and actually vote):

I still very much believe that the tier 6-C moon shaking feat is an outlier and doesn't really exist in the first place. The reasons are as follows:

1. The feat is, even after the recently calculated and accepted feat, an outlier. The verse so far has shown a maximum of tier 8-A and 7-C feats, the 7-C feat being the one and only feat known so far that reaches beyond tier 8 and the 8-A one the only one that is currently added that is higher than High 8-C.
While the 7-C feat was done by Krypto growling, the 6-C feat is very dubious and as said before, nothing comes close to the same level of power or destruction in the entire series, even the growl which only affected a section of a rainforest, while the feat that is currently used shook the entirety of the moon which would require more than a million times more power than the growl.

2. While Krypto has the feats, the characters in the scene have so far not shown any feats of that caliber, rather, even when striking the ground on earth at great force they can just cause a normal sized crack in the ground. Krypto has the crazy earthquake feats, but others haven't shown anything of the sort, and as we know just because 1 guy who is basically superman but dog has all the destructive feats, others aren't guaranteed to have that kind of destructive capacity, even if they scale to him in AP.

3. The feat isn't really a legitimate thing. It is just a statement and not a clear one. Why is it not clear? Because I believe the statement isn't a legitimate warning not to shake the moon but simply a play on words that is meant to tell the characters to stop messing around and to get to work.
This is supported by

a) the context: they are drilling rocks on the moon, some dogs mess around, knock down the us flag, bounce around. They are then told that they were supposed to collect moon rocks and not rock the moon. There is no shaking caused by the bouncing and if what they were doing was endangering the moon they'd be causing such destruction in basically every fight they are in.

b) there is no reason for the dogs to be warned. There were no mountains nearby, there were no faultlines nearby, the dogs were near a spaceship and several can fly and finally, there is nobody living on the moon and thus, strictly speaking, shaking the moon would do nothing.

c) The characters go to Earth in the same episode and fight a...tail, well whatever, either way they fight a tail and Mammoth Mutt expands with her ability and crushes it with her body after jumping onto it. Problem is, Mammoth was specifically the one who was warned when they were on the moon, or rather, the statement was made after she started bouncing around and causing havock on the moon. None of the characters present at the moment have shown the same levels of feats as Krypto and only scale to him in blatant AP. Krypto is in that scene but he flies in after the statement, takes some collected rocks on a platform and leaves, so the warning wasn't intended for him.

d) overall i think the statement is just a clever way to say that they should stop horsing around and actually get collecting rocks, not a warning for the characters to not cause a moonquake. This is also supported by just how casual the statement was. It was clearly meant to be just a pun, not an actual reliable statement for scaling, especially considering there was nobody present there who is capable of doing the feat.

4. Even if in some unholy way the statement actually made sense, rocking the moon isn't exactly the same as saying they'd cause a sensible earthquake on the moon. It's just shaking the moon and, considering the ones doing the feat are super dogs, when even normal dogs are hypersensetive to sound and movement and sense earthquakes even before they happen, would mean that the feat in actuality could be at a magnitude where it's still felt by basically anyone, as in mag 2, 3, 4. 5 is meant to be a magnitude where everyone senses it inside the bustling city and it can cause damage to things, meanwhile to sense the earthquake at all, especially for a dog, any magnitude below 5 would also do.

MY FINAL OPINION: my truest opinion is that the feat should be disregarded due to being a massive outlier (it's 6-C while Krypto's best feat so far is scaling notably above 7-C, so like around a million times difference and it is a logical outlier since so far Krypto hasn't affected stuff beyond a part of a jungle while this feat implies his friends, who have no DC feats of the sort, can shake an entire moon) and due to not really existing since it is just a joke, a pun that is meant to imply that the dogs should get back to work instead of messing around, which is supported by the low destructive capacity the dogs in question have demonstrated and there being no logical reason behind the statement being a warning not to shake the moon, as even a mag 7 earthquake wouldn't do much to the superhuman dogs who can fly and have a spaceship and otherwise it wouldn't cause anyone any issues.

I believe that Krypto should be scaled to 7-C since it's not that far from the near 100 ton feat that we had before and 6-C should be disregarded, thrown away and forgotten. The most i could theoretically compromise on is a lower magnitude that would put the feat at High 7-C, though like i said before, the feat isn't real in the first place imo.
 
Reading through most of your concerns at the moment, I will have they say they are more reasonable than before.

Arceus0x said:
Overall, my thoughts are as follows (please remember that this are final thoughts, not meant for continuing the argument but to summarize what we believe is the case and so that staff can evaluate it in an organized manner and actually vote):

I still very much believe that the tier 6-C moon shaking feat is an outlier and doesn't really exist in the first place. The reasons are as follows:


While the 7-C feat was done by Krypto growling, the 6-C feat is very dubious and as said before, nothing comes close to the same level of power or destruction in the entire series, even the growl which only affected a section of a rainforest, while the feat that is currently used shook the entirety of the moon which would require more than a million times more power than the growl.
Click to expand...
I mean, he did that by casually growling, that is indeed correct. But then again the moral occurs to be that he was also affecting the mountain like you said and not just a single section of a whole rainforest. And we may not actually know how much power the other dogs taking place into shaking large sections of the moon itself.
Arceus0x said:
2. While Krypto has the feats, the characters in the scene have so far not shown any feats of that caliber, rather, even when striking the ground on earth at great force they can just cause a normal sized crack in the ground. Krypto has the crazy earthquake feats, but others haven't shown anything of the sort, and as we know just because 1 guy who is basically superman but dog has all the destructive feats, others aren't guaranteed to have that kind of destructive capacity, even if they scale to him in AP.
Click to expand...
True, but even then they'll still scale to Krypto regardless of him being one capable with such DC feats since they can all consistently harm him. But I do see your point either way
Arceus0x said:
3. The feat isn't really a legitimate thing. It is just a statement and not a clear one. Why is it not clear? Because I believe the statement isn't a legitimate warning not to shake the moon but simply a play on words that is meant to tell the characters to stop messing around and to get to work.
This is supported by

a) the context: they are drilling rocks on the moon, some dogs mess around, knock down the us flag, bounce around. They are then told that they were supposed to collect moon rocks and not rock the moon. There is no shaking caused by the bouncing and if what they were doing was endangering the moon they'd be causing such destruction in basically every fight they are in.
Click to expand...
The possibility could be that if you were to take into account of how long Mammoth Mutt would still have been bouncing around the moon or they may have been just holding back as they're just being casual either way as their mission appears to be simple to them at least.
Arceus0x said:
b) there is no reason for the dogs to be warned. There were no mountains nearby, there were no faultlines nearby, the dogs were near a spaceship and several can fly and finally, there is nobody living on the moon and thus, strictly speaking, shaking the moon would do nothing.
Click to expand...
Why would there be some random mountains somehow be existent on a moon either way? I don't understand what's really the point of this segment.
Arceus0x said:
c) The characters go to Earth in the same episode and fight a...tail, well whatever, either way they fight a tail and Mammoth Mutt expands with her ability and crushes it with her body after jumping onto it. Problem is, Mammoth was specifically the one who was warned when they were on the moon, or rather, the statement was made after she started bouncing around and causing havock on the moon. None of the characters present at the moment have shown the same levels of feats as Krypto and only scale to him in blatant AP. Krypto is in that scene but he flies in after the statement, takes some collected rocks on a platform and leaves, so the warning wasn't intended for him.
Click to expand...
Bull Dog was referring that to everyone on that moon not just her alone though.
Arceus0x said:
d) overall i think the statement is just a clever way to say that they should stop horsing around and actually get collecting rocks, not a warning for the characters to not cause a moonquake. This is also supported by just how casual the statement was. It was clearly meant to be just a pun, not an actual reliable statement for scaling, especially considering there was nobody present there who is capable of doing the feat.
Click to expand...
True, but then again, not every statement has to have a feat happening in the background in order to be at least blatant.
Arceus0x said:
4. Even if in some unholy way the statement actually made sense, rocking the moon isn't exactly the same as saying they'd cause a sensible earthquake on the moon. It's just shaking the moon and, considering the ones doing the feat are super dogs, when even normal dogs are hypersensetive to sound and movement and sense earthquakes even before they happen, would mean that the feat in actuality could be at a magnitude where it's still felt by basically anyone, as in mag 2, 3, 4. 5 is meant to be a magnitude where everyone senses it inside the bustling city and it can cause damage to things, meanwhile to sense the earthquake at all, especially for a dog, any magnitude below 5 would also do.
Click to expand...
Fair enough.
Arceus0x said:
MY FINAL OPINION: my truest opinion is that the feat should be disregarded due to being a massive outlier (it's 6-C while Krypto's best feat so far is scaling notably above 7-C, so like around a million times difference and it is a logical outlier since so far Krypto hasn't affected stuff beyond a part of a jungle while this feat implies his friends, who have no DC feats of the sort, can shake an entire moon) and due to not really existing since it is just a joke, a pun that is meant to imply that the dogs should get back to work instead of messing around, which is supported by the low destructive capacity the dogs in question have demonstrated and there being no logical reason behind the statement being a warning not to shake the moon, as even a mag 7 earthquake wouldn't do much to the superhuman dogs who can fly and have a spaceship and otherwise it wouldn't cause anyone any issues.

I believe that Krypto should be scaled to 7-C since it's not that far from the near 100 ton feat that we had before and 6-C should be disregarded, thrown away and forgotten. The most i could theoretically compromise on is a lower magnitude that would put the feat at High 7-C, though like i said before, the feat isn't real in the first place imo.
Click to expand...
And again, if nobody else has shown any real struggle performing their feats at all, I don't really see the issue in those. But I guess it's just "At least 7-C" to go then. Even then I did try my best to make these to make sense as possible.
 
ImmortalDread said:
I personally always dislike this type of “final input”, while one presents the entirety of his view and others simply respond to it.
Click to expand...
Which is why I simply just wanted mods to overview our arguments for one last time before making a decision for how this thread is going to be over as there wasn't really any point in arguing anymore.
 
Sure, also I did not intend to have any ill-personal offense (or offense in general) intention in the post. (if you feel it regardless; I always don't mind deleting it)
 
No, it's okay, you don't need to delete it. As technically that's what should've really happened for the thread either then
 
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