I don't understand this aspect of Reality-Fiction Transcendence...

[Ss3micah]

But before this goes off on tangents, the main question is why do characters get Low 1-C despite not ever being shown to be able to affect, destroy, create, and entire Low 1-C structure.

The most precise answer I give you is similar to what Ultima commented

Basically there are two types Low 1-C:
Types A and B

Type A: are characters that exist at a higher qualitative level than a Tier 2 structure seeing it as Fiction. These characters infinity transcend the power of Tier 2 to the point it’s fictional to them. A character could be Tier 2-A multiplied by infinity squared. All that does is increase the quantity of their power but not the quality of it. Type A are at a higher quality of power where no matter how far or high you go into 2-A you will never reach it and that level of power will always be fictional compared to their own. That’s the Low 1-C nature of Type A.

Type B: are characters that Low 1-C because of being the same as Type A but they also have feats that they can affect other Low 1-C beings and parts or all of a Low 1-C structure

Now if your asking why Type A would be to affect and destroy low 1-C beings or parts or all of a Low 1-C. As Ultima pointed out they would not. Type A at that point would have Low 1-C by nature of being a being that qualitatively superior to Tier 2 in its entirety and infinitely above any power Tier 2 can possibly produce. Even if there a completely ordinary people with ZERO POWER in their 5-D world they still get Low 1-C by nature of being a being of a higher quality of existence that no power in Tier 2 can ever hope to reach.

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, Iamunanimousinthat is ignoring the fact that they still can affect the said paper (2-C structure) significantly. “Affect” already do the job.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Because they can affect the whole structure significantly.

They can affect the lower structure they view as fiction, but they haven't been shown to affect the higher structure (they view as real) they are in.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

No, Iamunanimousinthat is ignoring the fact that they still can affect the said paper (2-C structure) significantly. “Affect” already do the job.

Affecting tier 2 structure is not synonymous with affecting a tier 1 structure.

 

[ImmortalDread]

They can affect the lower structure they view as fiction, but they haven't been shown to affect the higher structure (they view as real) they are in.

Affecting tier 2 structure is not synonymous with affecting a tier 1 structure.

Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.

Wiki already addressed this.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Wiki already addressed this.

I'm confused at what you're trying to say.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Are you confused with the bolding part that answered your question, or what exactly are you confused with?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Are you confused with the bolding part that answered your question, or what exactly are you confused with?

I think he's asking; "how does R/F difference grant destruction/creation over what is perceived as fiction?"

Like seeing a 2-A multiverse as fiction Grant's tier 1 but why does it do that of there isn't any feat of destruction/creation? Just it being perceived as fiction

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think he's asking; "how does R/F difference grant destruction/creation over what is perceived as fiction?"

That's not what I'm asking.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think he's asking; "how does R/F difference grant destruction/creation over what is perceived as fiction?"

The wiki gave 3 possibilities: “affect/destroy/recreate”. The first one clears out her question.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That's not what I'm asking.

I thought you were asking that.. I'm sorry

I also edited that comment nut uts still probably not what you meant

 

[ImmortalDread]

That's not what I'm asking.

The last part of wiki definition already answer your question.

 

[deonment]

Then they shouldn't qualify.

K then, All of CM, All of Twin Peaks, and all of The Elder Scrolls won't get tier 0, Nausuverse, a lot of SMT, and a lot of Homestuck won't get 1-A, cause they don't affect structures of that size. I can do this for nearly all the tiers from low 1-C up

The tier says this:

"Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

A character needs to be able to affect the space that trivializes everything thing below it, not simply be a character that exists in it.

Are you missing the existence of the "can" in that statement, not have

"Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

There is a difference between can and have, equalizing the two is not a good idea.

Except, we are assuming that because a character exists inside a Low 1-C structure that they can affect, destroy, create Low 1-C structures. We don't assume characters that exist in Tier 2 structures, can affect, destroy, create universes because they simply exist there.

Yes, because R>F differences and additional dimensions work differently, we equalize for tiering for our purposes, but how they grant the tier differs. One works by affecting a larger area, and the other works by wholly exceeding the parameters of a wholly less "real" reality due to your nature.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Are you confused with the bolding part that answered your question, or what exactly are you confused with?

It doesn't answer my question, I don't think you understand my point at all.

The Reality-Fiction Page says this:

"A character that qualifies would usually then scale to one level of infinity higher than the totality of the cosmology they transcend. So for example, viewing a Low 2-C to 2-A cosmology as fiction would grant Low 1-C, doing so to a 6-Dimensional Low 1-C construct would scale the character to 1-C, doing so to a 10-Dimensional High 1-C structure would be the equivalent of an 11-D High 1-C and so on. However, depending on the details and depictions of the Reality-Fiction Transcendence, it can be more than a simple 'dimensional jump', for example because each reality-fiction "level" having been explained to contain more than one level of infinity (e.g. due to containing large higher-dimensional spaces or similar)."

The Tier page says this:

Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.


My question is: Why can a character be granted Low 1-C for viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional, when the tier page says Tier 1 character must be able to affect, create, destroy a Low 1-C structure. Viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional, is not in anyway affecting ,creating, destroying a tier 1 structure.

 

[ImmortalDread]

He is also missing this

usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal."

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think he's asking; "how does R/F difference grant destruction/creation over what is perceived as fiction?"

Like seeing a 2-A multiverse as fiction Grant's tier 1 but why does it do that of there isn't any feat of destruction/creation? Just it being perceived as fiction

If I'm physically the size of a planet, I think it's only natural that I'd be able to destroy a building with ease.

Likewise, if I see a 4D construct as fiction, I would be able to destroy it like ripping a page of a magazine.

 

[ImmortalDread]

My question is: Why can a character be granted Low 1-C for viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional, when the tier page says Tier 1 character must be able to affect, create, destroy a Low 1-C structure. Viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional, is not in anyway affecting ,creating, destroying a tier 1 structure.

It never said must be able to affect, it says it can affect. Also, you are wrong, viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional is enough for low 1-C. As this will be uncountable, infinitely larger than low 2-C

Also, let's go deeper with your question, I am a monster with large 8 size, why I can't destroy the planet?

 

[Jinsye]

Putting a character that sees a tier 2 structure as fiction as tier 2 is disingenuous because no tier 2 would be capable of affecting the character who views the structure as fiction, their effects would be too small to even notice (because you know, uncountably infinitely bigger).

To affect them, you would need to be able to affect the higher layers of reality, aka be tier 1. For AP it's the same thing, being or affecting any amount bigger than an infinitely large tier 2 structure is tier 1, it's disingenuous to say that they are specifically locked to a lower layer.

We treat people who can destroy tier 1 structures as having higher AP than tier 1 via state of existence anyways, it's not like they are exactly equivalent.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I think all of you are misunderstanding his question.

An Author example is the best explanation here. If you are an Author, and you view the Universe you write as fiction, via R > F you qualify to be Low 1-C. However in that Author's World which would be Low 1-C, he's just a normal person and can't effect his entire Low 1-C Structure.

So yes, he views the Universe as fiction and has control over it, however he can't effect his own reality, which is Low 1-C according to the wiki.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Actually, he would be in 6D existence plane, which is the reason he can't affect it.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I would imagine seeing a whole dimensional construct as fiction constitutes as a transcendence on the same level as an inaccessible.

As in, a fictional being cannot reach a "real" being no matter how much they climb.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Actually, he would be in 6D existence plane, which is the reason he can't affect it.

That's still weird. If the Author's Novel is Low 2-C, and the Author is Low 1-C for viewing it as fiction, then what about the Author's bed, or their desk, or a gosh damn plastic bottle? If he can't even destroy his desk easily, then what about a building, or a planet in his world? In the end he still isnt able to effect a Low 1-C Structure, and his power is limited to Low 2-C.

This is just Iike the Arceus issue in the past.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Because you are always one dimension “hypnotically above” as the one, you are transcending it.

 

[Jinsye]

My question is: Why can a character be granted Low 1-C for viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional, when the tier page says Tier 1 character must be able to affect, create, destroy a Low 1-C structure. Viewing a tier 2 cosmology as fictional, is not in anyway affecting ,creating, destroying a tier 1 structure.

Because affecting anything that views an infinite 4-D structure (such as a timeline) as finite is indeed affecting a qualitatively superior space. Thus you would be affecting a Low 1-C structure.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That's still weird. If the Author's Novel is Low 2-C, and the Author is Low 1-C for viewing it as fiction, then what about the Author's bed, or their desk, or a gosh damn plastic bottle? If he can't even destroy his desk easily, then what about a building, or a planet in his world? In the end he still isnt able to effect a Low 1-C Structure, and his power is limited to Low 2-C.

This is just Iike the Arceus issue in the past.

"Above baseline 5D"

It's all scaling from there

 

[Jinsye]

That's still weird. If the Author's Novel is Low 2-C, and the Author is Low 1-C for viewing it as fiction, then what about the Author's bed, or their desk, or a gosh damn plastic bottle? If he can't even destroy his desk easily, then what about a building, or a planet in his world? In the end he still isnt able to effect a Low 1-C Structure, and his power is limited to Low 2-C.

You're misunderstanding this a bit here.

I'll replace 'novel' with 'paper' here just to make my life a bit easier.

This sheet of paper contains an entire timeline, drawn on this paper. Timelines are infinite, but it is contained within this paper. This is similar to our normal theory of the multiverse being contained within a 5-D structure.

This paper is now qualitatively superior to the timeline due to the fact it contains it. Thus it is now a 5-D space. If you exist on the same level as this paper, say as an artist drawing stuff on it, you can affect the paper however you want.

Thus, you would be significantly affecting a 5-D space.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Technically speaking, 4D space is actually 5D, since you include automatically a temporal dimension.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You're misunderstanding this a bit here.

I'll replace 'novel' with 'paper' here just to make my life a bit easier.

This sheet of paper contains an entire timeline, drawn on this paper. Timelines are infinite, but it is contained within this paper. This is similar to our normal theory of the multiverse being contained within a 5-D structure.

This paper is now qualitatively superior to the timeline due to the fact it contains it. Thus it is now a 5-D space. If you exist on the same level as this paper, say as an artist drawing stuff on it, you can affect the paper however you want.

Thus, you would be significantly affecting a 5-D space.

Oh, I see.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I am sorry but I am tired of this paper analogy. It doesn't work and is nonsensical.

If you put a place tier 2 structure on a paper and destroy it, that makes you Low 1-C according to the current standards.
But what happens when a character inside the tier 2 structure, destroys the tier 2 structure on the paper? What tier are they? And why do we assume that the Low 1-C character is qualitive superior to the fictional character?

If i doodble a world on my paper, and a character in that fictional world I created, destroys the world, on their own, with their own will, how can anyone say that I am more real than that character?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I think the paper analogy is more based on framework then substance. The paper is not the fictional universe, it is what the fictional universe exists within. The fictional characters are not the paper themselves; they are in the universe which exist on top of the paper as a framework. If they destroy the universe, it's like erasing something from the paper, but the paper still exists.

Furthermore, even if there where infinite universes, they still exist in/on the paper as a framework and aren't actually affecting the paper itself.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If you put a place tier 2 structure on a paper and destroy it, that makes you Low 1-C according to the current standards.

Yes, there is ontological difference

But what happens when a character inside the tier 2 structure, destroys the tier 2 structure on the paper? What tier are they?

You mean a character is destroying for example low 2-C structure? He gets low 2-C tier as he is not seeing the structure as a paper.

And why do we assume that the Low 1-C character is qualitive superior to the fictional character?

Because of infinity difference. An uncountable infinity is superior in quantity and quality, which is significant for AP difference.

If i doodble a world on my paper, and a character in that fictional world I created, destroys the world, on their own, with their own will, how can anyone say that I am more real than that character?

Pardon me, but what you said here again? I did not understand it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think the paper analogy is more based on framework then substance. The paper is not the fictional universe, it is what the fictional universe exists within. The fictional characters are not the paper themselves; they are in the universe which exist on top of the paper as a framework. If they destroy the universe, it's like erasing something from the paper, but the paper still exists.

Furthermore, even if there where infinite universes, they still exist in/on the paper as a framework and aren't actually affecting the paper itself.

Yeah, but the paper, and whatever I used to make the characters, are part of my world, and made of the same things I am. The fictional character, and the fictional world, are just as real, because they are made of the real things that make me up. The only difference is the perspective we have.

And not to mention, if the character leaves the paper and enters my world, would they be Low 1-C? Or would they be a lower tier. There are tons of example of characters leaving fictional worlds and entering the real world, but we don't give them Low 1-C, because the real world characters are insignificant in their own dimension.

This then becomes a catch-22.

 

[Jinsye]

The paper is not the universe, the universe is inside the paper (aka the contents of the paper).

If they destroy the universe (aka the contents of the paper), they are tier 2.
If they destroy the paper, they are tier 1.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The paper is not the universe, the universe is inside the paper (aka the contents of the paper).

If they destroy the universe (aka the contents of the paper), they are tier 2.
If they destroy the paper, they are tier 1.

To support this before @Iamunanimousinthat says it does not exist in the r>f transcendence page

Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane, and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The paper is not the universe, the universe is inside the paper (aka the contents of the paper).

If they destroy the universe (aka the contents of the paper), they are tier 2.
If they destroy the paper, they are tier 1.

If a draw a universe on the paper with the pencil, the graphite is as real as the paper, if the character destroys the graphite universe, they should be Low 1-C as well.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If a draw a universe on the paper with the pencil, the graphite is as real as the paper, if the character destroys the graphite universe, they should be Low 1-C as well.

Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane, and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Ya, so the paper, the graphite, or whatever is used to represent the fiction on the Author's plane is not the fiction itself, the fiction is something much lower, unreal to us and can only be represented through text or images.

 

[Jinsye]

If a draw a universe on the paper with the pencil, the graphite is as real as the paper, if the character destroys the graphite universe, they should be Low 1-C as well.

Not necessarily.

Most of the time it's pretty clear when something is literally graphite (thus equal in level to the real world) and whether it's referring to a fictional world that exists in the real world.

For example, the DC Universe in it's totality on the level they exist on is not literally made of extradimensional graphite and printing ink. If they were as equally real as the Real World, then Superman could just fly off the page and do whatever he wants. The fictional characters are not literally the materials that the author uses to draw them into existence. It is a representation of it, but they are not literal extradimensional pieces of graphite.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Ya, so the paper, the graphite, or whatever is used to represent the fiction on the Author's plane is not the fiction itself, the fiction is something much lower, unreal to us and can only be represented through text or images.

Not necessarily.

Most of the time it's pretty clear when something is literally graphite (thus equal in level to the real world) and whether it's referring to a fictional world that exists in the real world.

For example, the DC Universe in it's totality on the level they exist on is not literally made of extradimensional graphite and printing ink. If they were as equally real as the Real World, then Superman could just fly off the page and do whatever he wants. The fictional characters are not literally the materials that the author uses to draw them into existence. It is a representation of it, but they are not literal extradimensional pieces of graphite.

Okay, so the world exists somewhere or someway completely inaccessible, and the author can only interact with it through a representation of it in their world. And through this the Author is Low 1-C, despite being unable to affect, create, destroy the structure of the Author's world.

Now here's my problem:

The Author is Low 1-C because of above. Let's call this Story A.
A character from a separate story is 2-A. Let's call this Story B.

If you pit them against each other, the Low 1-C character wins. But here's the thing:

1. We are assuming that because the Author sees a tier 2 structure in their world as fiction, they would see all tier 2 structures in every work of fiction as fictional.

2. Quality speaking, An author in Story B can also sees their own stories as fictional too and quality wise, Author in Story A is no different than any author in Story B. Do characters get Low 1-C for telling stories in stories?

3. There are stories where characters are Low 1-C with simple dimensional scaling, and not any R>F scaling. The lower dimensions in those stories are just as real as the higher dimensions. Are we going to also assume that the Author from Story A, views those lower dimensions as fiction, even though Higher Dimensional Characters view those lower dimensions as real.

4. Under the current standards, if the Author from Story A, entered their fictional world and have no special superiority over the entirety of that world, they are disqualified from Low 1-C. If the author never enters their fictional world, why do we assume that they will have special superiority over the fictional world while in that world?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Now here's my problem:

The Author is Low 1-C because of above. Let's call this Story A.
A character from a separate story is 2-A. Let's call this Story B.

Wrong, it won't be story B, it would be a subset of story A. You started wrong.