Joker starts with whatever and I'd say Nahobino summoning additional allies would be a good primer for him to do such. Also neglecting Joker's influence overrides mindhax so not sure how they'd resist.
No, it doesn't. The only one who somewhat merges with her his Thanatos [2] and that's specifically because of Minato's imprint and once she actually obtained her own Fool Arcana. Attendants house persona in their compendium otherwise.
To a extent, I do agree with this. The Persona's Ren holds in his heart should be amplified by his Bonds, like all Persona's are usually shown/stated to be.
I understand that you're not cross scaling, but you seem to be missing the point. The point of the argument is that using Level's to scale demons when said level varies so drastically is iffy. I understand we need a way to scale character's between games, but when we're in a world where a character can be level 38 in one game and then 72 in another, or where Odin can be a higher Level than Loki, but then Loki can be a higher level than Odin, it shows that Level Scaling clearly cannot be 100% accurate and reliable.
Joker can start with just about anything. He is just as likely to spam Sleep hax as he is to rail the opponent with Electric Attacks, and he's just as likely to start with the Grappling Hook as he is to start with his Gun. We've already established across numerous threads that Joker has little in the way of a character to base his fighting style on, so it is assumed that he can, and will, try out just about anything, and then adjust his fighting style to be optimal to what he finds out about the enemy.
... Fair to a extent. Surtr's suicidal attack may not be something he does in character in combat and/or may have been a sort of ultimate move that required charging. But that is conjecture and there is little else to base Surtr's power on.
Well, even though he is unable to fight at his best, is it implied anywhere that if he had his sword, the actual fight would go significantly differently? That is to ask, can you show where it would be implied that with the sword, he could or would win?
Where is it implied? I have yet to see where this is implied.
I would once again like to ask where it is implied... Though, the fact that Surtr is so high on the chain supposedly but didn't simply bat away Freyr does help your position. I think I'm leaning a little more to the idea of Surtr not producing that level of power all the time.
I don't inherently disagree with any of the refutations made here, and In fact, arguably I agree with how much the Sun Arcana statement is brought up and all, that recruiting stronger demons isn't a big deal.
The entire point that was originally made by Milly was that Non-Human persona User's and Human persona user's alike have certain cases where they are forced to self heal (I think). While the Velvet Attendents may not have these experiences directly bonded to them, the Persona's they use would hold the same general Physiology a Persona holds while they are using them. When using these Persona's, their resistances change, meaning that even though they are using the Compendium as a conduit through which to summon Persona's of another, the general rules of a Persona and how they affect the user still apply.
No he starts with magic and stuff not negotiation and Elizabeth still reshapes her heart when summoning a Persona even if its from the compendium. And where is the first scan from? Persona users wouldn't need to use healing spells if they could just regen
No we see how he fights in the anime, manga and some cutscenes and he doesn't start the fight with negotiation when he's fighting someone who summons demons that are stronger than him
Sure, I understand that much. My issue with that assertion ultimately boils down to you incorporating feats from an older version of Ren into your analysis of his younger self. And, even if we operate under the assumption that Strikers/Scrambles is the most accurate portrayal of the combat in-lore, Ren is canonically joined by the rest of the Phantom Thieves during the vast majority of his battles. Ren doesn't have much experience fighting solo against multiple enemies who are least comparable (and likely vastly superior) to himself.
He starts with whatever he wants. He is an RPG character. If he comes to the conclusion that he can turn Nahobino's greatest strength in the match into his weakness he is going to take it.
The only attendant who is realized enough to wear a persona on their soul is Elizabeth because of Makoto. The other attendants do not unlock personae via realization or lived experience. They are rulers of power and inherently born with the capacity to utilize the compendium.
This has no bearing unless you think a rusty and reset Joker just suddenly learned how to move differently. Given that Joker can fight as such from the beginning of scramblers, and his mid game self from P5 is canonically stronger and more skilled, I don't really see an issue with this point.
That doesn't really matter as the thieves are frequently outnumbered by the dozens, a number nowhere even close to the situation here. It's also not really an "assumption" unless you are positing that Joker (and by extension Nahobino) and his crew literally fight turn based with all of the other game mechanics involved. Like by this logic I can just say since the fight stops during Joker's negotiations, that Joker can just abuse that until he's taken all of Nahobino's allies. OBviously a game mechanic.
That's false, see above, and in addition, Ren can canonically win his way out of ambushes (which can be up to 1 v 4) at varying points in the fight, so much so that, a good number of skills he can learn are specifically tailored to this.
Its a waste of time to be talking about Strikers here. His experience with fighting hordes is just a range feat, its barely something that is important in this fight. He already has other spells that have good enough range in p5
Prove he starts with whatever he wants
You can
Well that's new
Ok, Joker is an rpg character and thusly can start with whatever he wants.
She doesn't go through bonds. Bonds is the one thing that specifically brings people back from existence erasure. Maybe Elizabeth can do it after the events of P4AU, but she hasn't shown that much resolve from bonds and that would be the only case of it being applicable to attendants.
Surt might and I'm not sure if Almighty is something available to Naho at this point, but if it is, then that's also a counter to that.
That's fine but not really applicable to what I am saying. Across games, we scale via lore, feats, and portrayal. So I am using Thor's feats, lore and portrayal to scale Joker, and then taking the version of Thor in SMT 5 (with the same lore, feats, and portrayal as the one in Joker's verse) to compare them. There is no other way to do this, especially when talking about negotiation specifically. So I don't think the above applies here.
You realize demons strength can vary depending on the plot fo the game correct? Lucifer himself varies from being scared to fight Satan to literally killing YHWH.
Not really, we know Surt's myth and his general standing in the verse. He is still strong, but we don't need to ignore evidence and appeal to his high end and then misrepresent that as his casual AP, nor make crazy claims like Surt is >>>> Thor.
What do you mean? What other implication can you pull from that? If Zoro from One Piece fought an opponent without swords and the manga goes out of it's way to highlight this fact after he loses to another character, what would you think the point of mentioning said plot point would be? Are you going to tell me Zoro without his swords isn't nerfed? If Zoro was able to fight an opponent to mid to high difficulty without his swords, do you think the opponent would beat him easier with his swords?
You can't always play the fate game though. Cause I can just as much say that fate needed Thor and Odin dead because they would have acted had they not been dead. You keep doing this thing where you ignore the obvious implications of the story.
I don't know how to make the implication much clearer. If I'm a boxer and I fight you to a high diff fight without two broken arms, do you think you would win if I got use of my arms back?
Nah.
What gives you the impression he isn’t affected by mind manipulation as a demon?
I think it ultimately boils down to whether Strikers/Scramble's gameplay is the most realistic depiction of how combat works in-lore, which I honestly don't care enough about to argue at the moment. I'll concede.
There's more to being outnumbered in combat than the number of enemies or the ratio of allies to foes. Ren being outnumbered with his teammates, whom he can coordinate with, against Shadows is vastly different experience than fighting alone against a group of opponents commanded by a leader who both matches his versatility and is at least comparable in combat intelligence.
Again, Ren can canonically win against ambushes with the help of his team. Throughout both P5 and Strikers, Ren rarely ever fights on his lonesome; the implication being that, regardless of whether he's fighting in Mementos, a Palace, or a Prison, he's always joined by his peers.
All Demons have an inherent resistance to mind manipulation, which would include fear affliction as well. Nahobino's party can also cure one another and themselves with Patra and Diamrita.
The fact that demons and persona in general have multiple different layers of mind manipulation haxes that have their own resistances.
Can you prove that without having to slap up a demon with a null mind passive.
Substantiate this.
You got multiple mind haxes sleep, dizzy, forget, fear, brainjack, etc. If all demons have resistance to mind hax then why can you just still slap demons that aren't either gameplay bosses or anyone that has null/resist mind with just about any of these mind haxes.
Then explain to me why demons still need me parta to cure themselves of mental status effects that they can still catch other demons lacking with the wrong affinity based resistances. If ren can take the flying meatball legion and fear hax a bunch of shadows lacking the right resistances who should have cognitive physiology I don't see why nahobino just gets a they resistance via physiology pass on it.
Because having a resistance to an ability doesn't equate to immunity. Nahobino's party having a resistance to mind manipulation gives them a chance of not being afflicted with fear, in the same manner that Shadows in Persona aren't guaranteed to be affected by an ailment spell.
Then by that logic ren shouldn't be guaranteed to get afflicted by status effect spam since he's a persona user.
Nobody claimed the contrary. There's simply a higher change of him being affected by the spells with multiple Demons working in collaboration.
But these demons don't exactly have the best platter for options that have a counter. sleep, confusion and charm are = to dizzy and brainwash, seal is = to forget which most of these status effect get neged by succubus pajamas, thief mask, shield goggles, note book, and clarity cape. Which only really leaves poison, the most mid status effect that you might aswell let detox take care of that, mirage which only reduces accuracy and changes intended targets. what's stopping ren from just ambushing them with smokescreen and just become undetectedable to them and just pick them off one by one in the chaos.
All of these ailments exist in SMT V.
Ik, that's why I'm pointing out most of the one that have similarities to p5 status effects since @Lukewoesal007 wants to say all the status effects are all the same lore wise.
That's not what I suggested? My argument is right there.
You said the Nahobino should have a specific resistance to fear manipulation since Megami Tensei operates on a universal power system wherein all magic, lore-wise, functions identically across each entry. Otherwise, I don't see why this quote isn't just implying all status effects are all equal regardless of what they are.
You completely and utterly missed the point I was trying to make here. My argument was that, despite the fact fear doesn't appear as a status effect in the game, Nahobino should still logically have a resistance to fear manipulation, since, in terms of lore, plenty of Demons he fights against would have access to fear-inducing magic. Again, it wouldn't make sense for Demons to suddenly lose the ability to use a certain type of magic between entries when Megami Tensei's magic system is ubiquitous.
How do you know Nahobino resisted it?
Because ailment spells are not guaranteed to afflict statuses. Nahobino can also acquire skills (i.e. Hellish and Abyssal Mask) and infuse himself with essences that increase his resilience against ailments.
They're not guarenteed because they miss
Kinda ironic Hellish Mask straight up just links to fortify Spirit in that link.
It doesn't.
I never argued that Nahobino has "higher resistances". I was explaining that Joker using fear manipulation isn't the wincon you thought it was. Regardless, Nahobino can swap his Demons to those that resist ailment spells, in addition to simply...using Patra/Me Patra whenever they are afflicted.
I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility of a incon, considering there's decent evidence for Ren as well. I just think the arguments presented for Nahobino are much more compelling.
