Fusing pokemon profiles.

[GodlyCharmander]

Yes. When they’re not split evolutions. But yes, tell me how a limbless ball of ice and a frozen ghost maiden are somehow the same being.

You're under the very absurd assumption that A has to be the same as B for it to be in the same profile. No, different keys, or forms may accomodate a difference in biology given it's the same character.

None of this proves or disproves your point as I never argued that evolution isn’t natural. That’s common knowledge.

Oh really, genius? Then using Yoshi doesn't correlate to this scenario in any way now, does it?
Baby Pokémon requiring conditions to exists doesn't change the fact they do exists and evolutions are just later stages of the same character.

I’m aware it’s a bad argument. I’m mentioning it because it shows the flaws in yours.

???????????
If it's a unrelated, terrible example that does not in any way correlate to our scenario, how does it show anything in my point?
Your point being invalid due to technical issues in it when compared to mine makes them not relatable at all.

It cannot show flaws in my point, because your point is fallacious when related to mine.
Yoshi turning into Mario through an equipment allowing for Power Mimicry is not the same as naturally progressing to another form while staying the same character.
The flaws with the arguments of fusing Mario and Yoshi's profiles are completely different than the arguments of fusing two Pokémon from the same evolution lines.

Also Pikachu isn’t a split evolution. Pikachu’s evolution forms should be on the same page. This is not what I’m arguing.

????????
Why are the split evolutions the problem? Both are the natural progression of the same base form.
They are two different forms of the same character.

Gag things get ignored all the time. Goku breathes in space in early Dragon Ball when he took Monster Carrot to the moon. Also that manga is very not canon. Heck it’s a tv show in the anime.

Because it contradicts some form of notion in the original lore.
Not a problem with Pokémon, which has a multiverse. In that particular universe, Pokémon can evolve and devolve whenever they like.
Also, Devolving isn't a gag itself, it's a intrinsic mechanics of the verse.

De-evolution being as easy as evolution is an outright lie. Every instance, and I do mean every instance, is via an outside source that they have no control over. Dialga’s time manipulation, magical orbs, magic scarves, or being unique instances.

"in this particular manga, Devolution is as easy as Evolution"
and you reply by using examples of different mangas. you funny.

I’ve addressed every point here for one. And for two, no, it is objectively cluttered

"Objectively = I think so"

I don’t need to convince everyone in here.

You absolutely do. We're going to proceed with the fusion regardless of what you think unless you do so.

A former staff member.

What you say does not carry the same weight as a staff, but rather as much as a regular member.
Most members agree with the fusion, Gyro approved it.

One former staff opposed it. Oh no, but it's flawed that we don't listen to you in particular, but rather the majority, huh?
Get off your high horse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I am of the opinion that Pokemon will not have too many keys for any profiles if evolutionary lines.
& while regional variants are different species with different evolutionary history, they are often treated as similar, being compared to one another in lore. Not to mention the similarities in appearance. & if you don't dismiss them as game mechanics all THOSE other similarities.

Who cares if they’re similar with the same scaling? They’re still separate species with separate powers. Do you know how many similar characters we have with different profiles here?

Making readers have to go to multiple profiles for different parts of 1 evolutionary line because they're different forms, seems petty. Sure, evolutions will differ visually, & in capabilities, but they almost ALWAYS share a type, with little exception, & will have commonalities in movepools, often their abilities, etc., & have undeniable connections.

One, the Hitmons and the Slows are the only ones being discussed here to share a type combination. The rest outright have different type combos. And secondly and more importantly, I’d argue the exact opposite of the first sentence in this paragraph. Making readers navigating this one profile instead of just getting what they came for with the one they just typed in is the petty thing.

& stuff like refusing to merge Gyarados's profile with Magikarp's because 1 is weaker than the other is not something I can support.

Again I’ll give you that one.

Characters with vast differences in capabilities, appearance, temperament, reputation, etc. between keys or forms is not unheard of.

And for those examples it’s the same person. Evil Ryu may be a totally different persona of Ryu, but it’s still Ryu. The argument here would be like making Kage part of Ryu’s page.

& even beside that, speculated likelihoods about Versus Thread win rates shouldn't influence how we create profiles.

Besides the Gyarados thing, the vs thing I mentioned is a totally legitimate argument and it’s something that happened before. For Digimon, SkullGreymon and MetalGreymon are on the same profile. They had a vs match. The former won. So now the Agumon/WarGreymon has a win and a loss against itself. And it looks ridiculous.

Also, personal note, I HATE -WITH EVERY FIBER OF MY BEING- everyone who says no one cares about the pre-evolutions. Even if it is statistically accurate, I dislike on principal, neglecting parts of an evolutionary line for being not the strongest. Maybe you don't care about it, but others may, & if they have the initiative to incorporate those stages, then you shouldn't let your callous disregard prevent that. Obviously, pre-evolutions should be keys.

Good for you. And no offense, and I do mean that, but idc if you hate the fact that people don’t care about the first forms, you’re still in the minority of people that care, and we shouldn’t be ******* over the final forms so you and your fellow 10% can have your way.

In a technical sense, the same being at different stages of life, albeit, 1 which has a less common experience (Exposure to a Dusk Stone.) that is still common enough for a significant portion of Snorunt to become Froslass to result in Froslass being a species rather than an anomaly.

My example was referring to Glalie, not Snorunt.

In my opinion, if Y & Z both share a common first form, then they should be grouped together. IIRC, there's precedent for other profiles showing lower forms first, meaning a base form has significance.

For most of those, the base/child forms are the most iconic, with the sole exception of like, the Xenomorph, and even then I think that the adult form should be listed first.

Stuff like this is why I dislike favoring which is most powerful.

It’s not the fact that it’s the most powerful but the one people actually care about. If you told me that a significant portion of the Pokémon fandom on this site is searching up Charmander as opposed to Charizard, you’d be lying.

Split Evolutions are still part of an evolutionary line, even if that evolutionary family has divergent paths.

Shouldn’t impact anything given we list the final forms first

I disagree that listing split evolutions is complicated. Profiles having multiple "highest" forms of similar capacity is not unheard of.
& IIRC, our Wiki does value reducing workloads. If presentability is the concern, then what of the argument that not having to maintain as many separate profiles makes it easier to keep them looking up to the standards of presentability?

Ever heard of less is more? A profile that’s just Flareon as opposed to “Flareon + Eevee, Vaporeon, Espeon, Jolteon, Umbreon, Sylveon, Glaceon, and Leafeon” is like…I’d have no idea how you’d be able to argue that the latter is better to look at.

Source on this assertion of @Armorchompy 's stance?

Discord convos.

You're under the very absurd assumption that A has to be the same as B for it to be in the same profile. No, different keys, or forms may accomodate a difference in biology given it's the same character.

Except again, it’s not the same ******* character. Solgaleo is objectively not Lunala. But no, since they both come from Cosmog and Cosmoem, these boxart Legends with incredibly different roles should be grouped together.

Oh really, genius? Then using Yoshi doesn't correlate to this scenario in any way now, does it?

Your initial point was X can turn into Y, so they should be the same profile. You may have further elaborated later, but the Yoshi point was specifically to disprove the aforementioned logic, and it worked as intended

Baby Pokémon requiring conditions to exists doesn't change the fact they do exists and evolutions are just later stages of the same character.

???????????
If it's a unrelated, terrible example that does not in any way correlate to our scenario, how does it show anything in my point?
Your point being invalid due to technical issues in it when compared to mine makes them not relatable at all.

It cannot show flaws in my point, because your point is fallacious when related to mine.
Yoshi turning into Mario through an equipment allowing for Power Mimicry is not the same as naturally progressing to another form while staying the same character.
The flaws with the arguments of fusing Mario and Yoshi's profiles are completely different than the arguments of fusing two Pokémon from the same evolution lines.

See

????????
Why are the split evolutions the problem? Both are the natural progression of the same base form.
They are two different forms of the same character.

Because again, and I can’t stress this enough, our profiles are not about the base forms. If they were, you’d have a point. The profiles would still be cluttered but you’d have a point. But we’re not. The base forms are the extra shit, not the drawing factor. Not to mention that these aren’t characters. They’re species. A Ralts can’t turn to and from Gardevoir and Gallade. If it could then yes, it would be the same profile. But evolution is permanent.

Because it contradicts some form of notion in the original lore.
Not a problem with Pokémon, which has a multiverse. In that particular universe, Pokémon can evolve and devolve whenever they like.
Also, Devolving isn't a gag itself, it's a intrinsic mechanics of the verse.

The hell it is. It happens a grand total of three times in the multiple decades that manga has run. And yes, it does contradict the lore of the franchise. Evolution has always been permanent unless an outside source

"in this particular manga, Devolution is as easy as Evolution"
and you reply by using examples of different mangas. you funny.

lists literally everything but mangas
gets called out for using different mangas

"Objectively = I think so"

Oh goodness, please tell me how eight beings with different powers, movesets, abilities, stat differences, strategies etc. being in one profile isn’t objectively going to clutter a profile.

You absolutely do. We're going to proceed with the fusion regardless of what you think unless you do so.

What you say does not carry the same weight as a staff, but rather as much as a regular member.
Most members agree with the fusion, Gyro approved it.

One former staff opposed it. Oh no, but it's flawed that we don't listen to you in particular, but rather the majority, huh?
Get off your high horse.

Hey @Antvasima how much does my opinion weigh? You know, Cal, the guy who without him this wouldn’t be a conversation because non-Legendary profiles would still be banned on site?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Except again, it’s not the same ******* character. Solgaleo is objectively not Lunala. But no, since they both come from Cosmog and Cosmoem, these boxart Legends with incredibly different roles should be grouped together.

It is the same character. Both are Evolved Ralts.
Legendaries are their own case. Solgaleo and Lunala have been portrayed as being different characters, and only one one them exist at a time. Clearly not applicable to species profiles.

Your initial point was X can turn into Y, so they should be the same profile. You may have further elaborated later, but the Yoshi point was specifically to disprove the aforementioned logic, and it worked as intended


See

Context of the conversation being about Pokémon being biologically connected to evolution clearly does not change the statement I made in anyway.

It seems you failed your English Classes on basic textual interpretation.

Because again, and I can’t stress this enough, our profiles are not about the base forms. If they were, you’d have a point. The profiles would still be cluttered but you’d have a point. But we’re not. The base forms are the extra shit, not the drawing factor. Not to mention that these aren’t characters. They’re species. A Ralts can’t turn to and from Gardevoir and Gallade. If it could then yes, it would be the same profile. But evolution is permanent.

Split evolutions will simply be of their base forms, problem solved, each split will be a key, and we won't have two profiles with 90% of repeated content of the same pre-evolutions for no ******* reason.

The hell it is. It happens a grand total of three times in the multiple decades that manga has run. And yes, it does contradict the lore of the franchise. Evolution has always been permanent unless an outside source---

Lore of the franchise? Mechanics change between canonical media, levels are nearly non-existent (and work completely different) in the Anime.
The fact it happens in its own universe already solves this non-issue.

Oh goodness, please tell me how eight beings with different powers, movesets, abilities, stat differences, strategies etc. being in one profile isn’t objectively going to clutter a profile.

The only part that's heavily affected by this is the P&A section, which can be separated by tabs. The AP, Speed, and Durability section all share the same value, and thus, englobe all eeveelutions at once.

Hey @Antvasima how much does my opinion weigh? You know, Cal, the guy who without him this wouldn’t be a conversation because non-Legendary profiles would still be banned on site?

You're either a staff or you're not. Your past accomplishments do not give you an authority. What, because I am the one who gave DBZ its MFTL+ speed rating supporters wanted for years, is my opinion suddenly on the same level of authority as a Staff when it comes to DBZ threads? Obviously not.

I appreciate your work in the past, I really do. But I must ask again, get off your high horse. You're a regular member with an argument. If the majority, and the Staff, decides that fusing the profiles is the way to go, then we'll do that.

You, by yourself, is not going to change the course of this CRT unless you convince everyone of relevance (aka, ACTUAL Staff).
This isn't my take, this is a statement.

 

[Lou_change]

Your argument relies on the fact they are different characters right? Ghoul (Dungeons and Dragons) so this becomes about 15 profiles if we apply similar logic these are species profiles Pokémon is weird on what a species is but we know members of a evolution line give birth to the first member of the evolutionary line (unless it is a baby form sometimes) if they are capable of such also mime jr technical has a split evolution how do you think that should work same with pikachu, and exeggcute how do we handle that they evolve into different forms of the same Pokémon.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We can look into the species with the most amount of species evolution splits in the series, Eevee

Thanks to @Arceus0x's great work, the profiles looks perfectly okay, and not cluttered at all.

 

[KobsterHope07]

We can look into the species with the most amount of species evolution splits in the series, Eevee

Thanks to @Arceus0x's great work, the profiles looks perfectly okay, and not cluttered at all.

Why does that Eevee profile has ten keys? Wouldn't it be better to reduce it to three keys to match the tiers

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why does that Eevee profile has ten keys? Wouldn't it be better to reduce it to three keys to match the tiers

That is true, yes. I bit of a mistake on Arceus' end I assume. I can fix that.

EDIT: Fixed

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Your argument relies on the fact they are different characters right? Ghoul (Dungeons and Dragons) so this becomes about 15 profiles if we apply similar logic these are species profiles Pokémon is weird on what a species is but we know members of a evolution line give birth to the first member of the evolutionary line (unless it is a baby form sometimes) if they are capable of such also mime jr technical has a split evolution how do you think that should work same with pikachu, and exeggcute how do we handle that they evolve into different forms of the same Pokémon.

This profile is terrible. The mere fact that I have to scroll the tab bar to get to separate individual powers is a problem in and of itself. On top of the fact that I have to go to the blessed tab to figure out the powers of this other tab and only then can I get the powers of the third monster. And it looks even worse on mobile. Also it’s a profile where the most notable form is the base form. Unlike most of the Pokémon.
And I do think Alolan Raichu and Mr. Mime would have separate pages.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

We can look into the species with the most amount of species evolution splits in the series, Eevee

Thanks to @Arceus0x's great work, the profiles looks perfectly okay, and not cluttered at all.

Notice how the weakness section only has Eevee’s stuff. How is that gonna be fixed? All of them have vastly different weaknesses.

I’ll get to the wall of text later

 

[Tllmbrg]

This profile is terrible. The mere fact that I have to scroll the tab bar to get to separate individual powers is a problem in and of itself. On top of the fact that I have to go to the blessed tab to figure out the powers of this other tab and only then can I get the powers of the third monster. And it looks even worse on mobile.
And I do think Alolan Raichu and Mr. Mime would have separate pages.

And I think splitting Pokémon forms into separate looks shit too
But considering you’re arguing over visuals at this point (Since either way the information is the same) it’s really a matter of what staff + the supporters agree on which is evidently fusing the pages

 

[Tllmbrg]

Notice how the weakness section only has Eevee’s stuff. How is that gonna be fixed? All of them have vastly different weaknesses.

I’ll get to the wall of text later

Split it up?
Bro it ain’t complex

 

[Imaginym]

Who cares if they’re similar with the same scaling? They’re still separate species with separate powers. Do you know how many similar characters we have with different profiles here?

Some separate powers. They still share a huge number of abilities. We literally have Pokemon inherit abilities of their previous forms, just like tons of other profiles have "Same as before, also [Wall of text goes here]".
Not to mention, unlike say, 2 versions of Spider-Man from different continuities, it's often possible to assume a Froslass COULD have been a Snorunt at some point, with the same powers as a Snorunt!
But you can't go & look at Spider-Man Toby MacGuire & Miles Morale & say just because they're human Spider-Men that they should be one profile, because it's quite unreasonable to assume they were all the same individual.
Even multiple versions of Clark Kent are gonna have different histories or abilities depending on continuity.

But it's actually plausible for a Froslass to have been practically identical to a Snorunt at some point in its life, as well as from a similar or practically identical continuity (Ex: The universe of 1 mainline game vs another.) including in capabilities, unlike 2 Spider-Men or such.

One, the Hitmons and the Slows are the only ones being discussed here to share a type combination. The rest outright have different type combos.

I think this is a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding.
My wording was "but they almost ALWAYS share a type, with little exception".

Every Hitmon, & Tyrogue, are Fighting-types. Everything in Poliwag's line is Water-type, with Poliwrath just having an added Fighting-type. Everything in Slowpoke's line is part Psychic-type, with either a Water or Poison-type. Everything in Oddish's line is Grass-type, with or without a Poison-type.
Eevee's 1 of few, if not the only exceptions in Pokemon where it has NO TYPES in common with its evolutions.

& as mentioned, the Eeveelutions, from a VSBW standpoint, the Eeveelutions are all statistically similar due to being comparable.

And secondly and more importantly, I’d argue the exact opposite of the first sentence in this paragraph. Making readers navigating this one profile instead of just getting what they came for with the one they just typed in is the petty thing.

If you're arguing for viewer convenience, I'd worry about bandwidth or browser/connection speed. Or just Fandom being difficult with loading new pages. I can recall having Fandom take a while to load the search bar, despite Chrome running smoothly on the latest version.

I'd say that clicking a tabber is often easier than navigating to a whole new page. Not to mention if all they care about is the Tier, as many viewers do, if all the Eeveelutions are on 1 page, then they just have to scroll down slightly, instead of realizing they got the wrong Eeveelution & searching again.

And for those examples it’s the same person. Evil Ryu may be a totally different persona of Ryu, but it’s still Ryu. The argument here would be like making Kage part of Ryu’s page.

& you don't think it's reasonable to make our profiles keeping in mind the possibility many Pokemon with split evolutions could become either evolution/form? Despite that, as mentioned, D&D gives keys for other forms of monsters with branching stuff & such?

Besides the Gyarados thing, the vs thing I mentioned is a totally legitimate argument and it’s something that happened before. For Digimon, SkullGreymon and MetalGreymon are on the same profile. They had a vs match. The former won. So now the Agumon/WarGreymon has a win and a loss against itself. And it looks ridiculous.

If your concern is how a normal person considers such a verdict being on the profile, in my opinion, that feels like an issue that could be solved by just displaying the links as "SkullGreymon" & "MetalGreymon" & linking to the appropriate tabber of profile itself. The lay person will read the proper meaning, & be directed to the correct parts of the profile, even it's just 1.

Good for you. And no offense, and I do mean that, but idc if you hate the fact that people don’t care about the first forms, you’re still in the minority of people that care, and we shouldn’t be ******* over the final forms so you and your fellow 10% can have your way.

My position to express regarding this was that you shouldn't prevent other users from improving the accuracy of our profiles just because you don't care about certain species for being weaker.

My example was referring to Glalie, not Snorunt.

A Glailie & a Froslass are still very likely to share a significant amount of history as a Snorunt, as well as capabilities, possibly temperament (From being a Snorunt.), etc. The circumstances that cause a Snorunt to become either one are likely rather negligible. The fact that they could be so alike at 1 point makes it dubious to split them into 2 profiles, considering what other profiles do.
Different versions of Spider-Man are separate because they're clearly very different people, but Pokemon should share profiles with their evolutionary line, even the evolutionary family members they're indirectly connected to because as species they're still very similar.

It’s not the fact that it’s the most powerful but the one people actually care about. If you told me that a significant portion of the Pokémon fandom on this site is searching up Charmander as opposed to Charizard, you’d be lying.

Yes, but they search it BECAUSE it's the most powerful. Maybe not always so for Charizard, but I'm pretty sure I've been told time & time again that people take more interest in final forms, & a big part of that is that it's the most powerful, something even more compelling to those with an interest in Versus-Debating.

Shouldn’t impact anything given we list the final forms first

Missing the point. They're still connected by a base, & thus, the profiles should be fused, given what other species profiles are often like, regardless of who we throw at the viewer's face when they land on the page.

Ever heard of less is more? A profile that’s just Flareon as opposed to “Flareon + Eevee, Vaporeon, Espeon, Jolteon, Umbreon, Sylveon, Glaceon, and Leafeon” is like…I’d have no idea how you’d be able to argue that the latter is better to look at.

I know of elegance through simplicity, yes. But some would argue it's also messy to see us having 8 profiles for 1 evolutionary line, & it's less convenient to edit, too.
Not to mention in cases like the Eons, you wouldn't have to put every name in the title (Just as redirects.), & you don't necessarily have to give all of them their own statistical key when 7 of 8 of them are identical.

It wouldn't need to be "Eevee | Flareon | Vaporeon | Jolteon", etc., you could just go "Eevee | Eevee's evolutions" or such.

Except again, it’s not the same ******* character. Solgaleo is objectively not Lunala. But no, since they both come from Cosmog and Cosmoem, these boxart Legends with incredibly different roles should be grouped together.

I would not say their roles in the story of the games are that dissimilar. Both are light-providing pseudo-deities to Alola who get attacked by Necrozma, & both were a Cosmog at 1 point. Heck, they're both called as forms of Cosmog by the Pokedex.
Similar story roles, similar histories, same pre-evolutions, a shared typing, both prominently feature Light Manipulation, despite not THAT many shared level-up moves.

Because again, and I can’t stress this enough, our profiles are not about the base forms. If they were, you’d have a point. The profiles would still be cluttered but you’d have a point. But we’re not. The base forms are the extra shit, not the drawing factor. Not to mention that these aren’t characters. They’re species. A Ralts can’t turn to and from Gardevoir and Gallade. If it could then yes, it would be the same profile. But evolution is permanent.

I feel like this point is flawed. Plenty of characters change their identity & capabilities, sometimes irreversibly. That does not mean, the higher forms are disconnected from the lower forms, even if in 1 future, they didn't become X.
& species they are, yes, but those species often have characterizations to those species, & the base form has an influence on the capabilities, & arguably, behaviour, of the Final Form. I'd dare call ignoring that influence... well, ignorant.

Oh goodness, please tell me how eight beings with different powers, movesets, abilities, stat differences, strategies etc. being in one profile isn’t objectively going to clutter a profile.

Tabbers for Powers & Abilities, a single key for when they have nearly identical statistics via comparability, & keys that mention them as a collective ONLY if their statistics somehow differ radically.
"Eevee | Eevee's evolutions". Bam, at most, 2 statistics keys per stat.
Behaviour, intelligence, weaknesses, etc. can be managed with keys, or if verbosity becomes an issue, tabbers.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And I think splitting Pokémon forms into separate looks shit too
But considering you’re arguing over visuals at this point (Since either way the information is the same) it’s really a matter of what staff + the supporters agree on which is evidently fusing the pages

How on earth do profiles look like shit?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

And I think splitting Pokémon forms into separate looks shit too
But considering you’re arguing over visuals at this point (Since either way the information is the same) it’s really a matter of what staff + the supporters agree on which is evidently fusing the pages

Since both profiles will have both Kirlia and Ralts in their keys as well, it'll be 90% of the same content for the sake of semantics.

 

[Lou_change]

This profile is terrible. The mere fact that I have to scroll the tab bar to get to separate individual powers is a problem in and of itself. On top of the fact that I have to go to the blessed tab to figure out the powers of this other tab and only then can I get the powers of the third monster. And it looks even worse on mobile. Also it’s a profile where the most notable form is the base form. Unlike most of the Pokémon.
And I do think Alolan Raichu and Mr. Mime would have separate pages.

I suppose but it is organized adding 20 pages when we have good reason to fuse them takes up more space and and would look disorganized on the verse page.

And I think splitting Pokémon forms into separate looks shit too
But considering you’re arguing over visuals at this point (Since either way the information is the same) it’s really a matter of what staff + the supporters agree on which is evidently fusing the pages

Oh sorry if I bothered you.

 

[Tllmbrg]

How on earth do profiles look like shit?

Why are you trying to change a verdict of a CRT that has been basically conclude half a month ago
You know insulting how people’s pages look will not make your case stronger

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why are you trying to change a verdict of a CRT that has been basically conclude half a month ago
You know insulting how people’s pages look will not make your case stronger

Because I wasn’t here before. You know damn well I’m rarely here anymore. This purely was coincidental that I found out about this. I normally ignore the profile deletion thread.

 

[Shmooply]

And it looks even worse on mobile.

Desktop view mode is your friend.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH pages being "large" is far from an issue in itself, are we going to now put an arbitrary file size limit on any page? That'd be detrimental to cases that are formatted like this to avoid redundancy, or a good amount of work to display more specific details on a character's capabilities in the Notable Attacks/Techniques section.
And this is no exception, separating pages by evolutionary part not only makes navigation harder, it also turns harder to moderate (cough, even non-branching lines like Larvitar's only having Tyranitar on the page and looking mediocre at best), so I really think that GodlyCharmander is right and I fully support merging each evolutionary family to a single page.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

TBH pages being "large" is far from an issue in itself, are we going to now put an arbitrary file size limit on any page? That'd be detrimental to cases that are formatted like this to avoid redundancy, or a good amount of work to display more specific details on a character's capabilities in the Notable Attacks/Techniques section.
And this is no exception, separating pages by evolutionary part not only makes navigation harder, it also turns harder to moderate (cough, even non-branching lines like Larvitar's only having Tyranitar on the page and looking mediocre at best), so I really think that GodlyCharmander is right and I fully support merging each evolutionary family to a single page.

Once again, typing in “Flareon” to get Flareon is what you do for every profile. Redirects change nothing. It merely takes you to Eevee. You still have to go through several tabbers to get the information you need for the Pokémon you want, and it’s even worse for split evos with Megas and G-Maxs. When before you just typed in the Pokémon you want. This does not make things easier for the average person. That’s not debatable.

 

[Flashlight237]

Come to think of it, I recall us doing the same thing with Digimon profiles... Sure, why not?

 

[Bobsican]

Once again, typing in “Flareon” to get Flareon is what you do for every profile. Redirects change nothing. It merely takes you to Eevee. You still have to go through several tabbers to get the information you need for the Pokémon you want, and it’s even worse for split evos with Megas and G-Maxs. When before you just typed in the Pokémon you want. This does not make things easier for the average person. That’s not debatable.

It's more than debatable, actually, it seems your concern here is smartphones, as in a PC navigating here is more than trivial, I don't even have to open boxes, nor navigate across multiple tabbers within tabbers, you're really overexaggerating this "issue".
Smartphones in their default mode may be uncomfortable to navigate on the site out of how they don't support tabbers and one has to manually scroll, but that's a site-wide issue either way and it has been decided to just continue like this as it's not that bad and there's the possibility Fandom gets updated at some point to cover that. In any case even going by other pages, Eevee's page is more than manageable in a smartphone, and it's far easier to navigate a large page than having to hop across multiple pages that are going to drop redundant information out of being separate.

 

[Lou_change]

Once again, typing in “Flareon” to get Flareon is what you do for every profile. Redirects change nothing. It merely takes you to Eevee. You still have to go through several tabbers to get the information you need for the Pokémon you want, and it’s even worse for split evos with Megas and G-Maxs. When before you just typed in the Pokémon you want. This does not make things easier for the average person. That’s not debatable.

What if someone doesn’t use the search function I normally go through the verse page also it means we explain edges once separately, on every profile, on one evolution profile all of which are weird by other standards besides eevee is faster to type and as long as you aren’t using mobile version of the site you just click on the tab you want worse case it tells you oh it also has the powers of its previous form/s in this case eevee minus something maybe

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Some separate powers. They still share a huge number of abilities. We literally have Pokemon inherit abilities of their previous forms, just like tons of other profiles have "Same as before, also [Wall of text goes here]".
Not to mention, unlike say, 2 versions of Spider-Man from different continuities, it's often possible to assume a Froslass COULD have been a Snorunt at some point, with the same powers as a Snorunt!
But you can't go & look at Spider-Man Toby MacGuire & Miles Morale & say just because they're human Spider-Men that they should be one profile, because it's quite unreasonable to assume they were all the same individual.
Even multiple versions of Clark Kent are gonna have different histories or abilities depending on continuity.

But it's actually plausible for a Froslass to have been practically identical to a Snorunt at some point in its life, as well as from a similar or practically identical continuity (Ex: The universe of 1 mainline game vs another.) including in capabilities, unlike 2 Spider-Men or such.

Evos have totally different personalities and lore to their previous versions, let alone their split evos. Gallade is a chivalrous knight who fights with elbow swords while Gardevoir is a loyal gravity maiden. Froslass is the soul of a ghostly maiden who freezes people and displays them in her lair. Glalie ******* eats people.

I think this is a misrepresentation or a misunderstanding.
My wording was "but they almost ALWAYS share a type, with little exception".

Every Hitmon, & Tyrogue, are Fighting-types. Everything in Poliwag's line is Water-type, with Poliwrath just having an added Fighting-type. Everything in Slowpoke's line is part Psychic-type, with either a Water or Poison-type. Everything in Oddish's line is Grass-type, with or without a Poison-type.
Eevee's 1 of few, if not the only exceptions in Pokemon where it has NO TYPES in common with its evolutions.

Depends on if we’re counting regional variants. Because most of those don’t share a type.

& as mentioned, the Eeveelutions, from a VSBW standpoint, the Eeveelutions are all statistically similar due to being comparable.

Comparable stats mean nothing. How many DBS characters have scaling that amounts to “upscales from funni Beerus clash”?

If you're arguing for viewer convenience, I'd worry about bandwidth or browser/connection speed. Or just Fandom being difficult with loading new pages. I can recall having Fandom take a while to load the search bar, despite Chrome running smoothly on the latest version.

I'd say that clicking a tabber is often easier than navigating to a whole new page. Not to mention if all they care about is the Tier, as many viewers do, if all the Eeveelutions are on 1 page, then they just have to scroll down slightly, instead of realizing they got the wrong Eeveelution & searching again.

If someone messes up typing in the name for the Eeveelution they’re looking for the they’re an idiot who can’t spell. Vaporeon spells nothing like Sylveon.

& you don't think it's reasonable to make our profiles keeping in mind the possibility many Pokemon with split evolutions could become either evolution/form? Despite that, as mentioned, D&D gives keys for other forms of monsters with branching stuff & such?

As I said before DnD profiles are incredibly cluttered. Heck, I always hated Culexus Assassin matchups because it sucked having to navigate the entire Officio Assassorium to see what the hell that thing could do.

If your concern is how a normal person considers such a verdict being on the profile, in my opinion, that feels like an issue that could be solved by just displaying the links as "SkullGreymon" & "MetalGreymon" & linking to the appropriate tabber of profile itself. The lay person will read the proper meaning, & be directed to the correct parts of the profile, even it's just 1.

Just because it’s understandable doesn’t make it look any less stupid.

My position to express regarding this was that you shouldn't prevent other users from improving the accuracy of our profiles just because you don't care about certain species for being weaker.

One, it’s not just me (how many matches do you ever see for Pokémon with their first forms, let alone middle, compared to their final?) and two splitting profiles isn’t a matter of accuracy. This is purely a visual thing from both ends.

A Glailie & a Froslass are still very likely to share a significant amount of history as a Snorunt, as well as capabilities, possibly temperament (From being a Snorunt.), etc. The circumstances that cause a Snorunt to become either one are likely rather negligible. The fact that they could be so alike at 1 point makes it dubious to split them into 2 profiles, considering what other profiles do.

See above. I outright use these two as an example, but if you’re reading this you’ve already seen it.

Yes, but they search it BECAUSE it's the most powerful. Maybe not always so for Charizard, but I'm pretty sure I've been told time & time again that people take more interest in final forms, & a big part of that is that it's the most powerful, something even more compelling to those with an interest in Versus-Debating.

People take interest in final forms because they’re the most recognizable and the ones that people are with for the rest of the game if they max em out. You can count on one hand the Pokémon where the first forms are the most popular (even Pikachu and Jigglypuff are second forms), at least off the top of my head. Psyduck, Slowpoke, Bidoof, MAYBE Piplup. That’s all I can think of.

Missing the point. They're still connected by a base, & thus, the profiles should be fused, given what other species profiles are often like, regardless of who we throw at the viewer's face when they land on the page.

I know of elegance through simplicity, yes. But some would argue it's also messy to see us having 8 profiles for 1 evolutionary line, & it's less convenient to edit, too.
Not to mention in cases like the Eons, you wouldn't have to put every name in the title (Just as redirects.), & you don't necessarily have to give all of them their own statistical key when 7 of 8 of them are identical.

It was literally never a problem in the past. The only benefit is that it’s easier to edit. That’s it. Nobody would argue, unless you’re on this thread and just trying to refute me, that it’s less messy to just look up Huntail instead of going through Clamperl and hoping you don’t get Gorebyss shit instead.

It wouldn't need to be "Eevee | Flareon | Vaporeon | Jolteon", etc., you could just go "Eevee | Eevee's evolutions" or such.

I would not say their roles in the story of the games are that dissimilar. Both are light-providing pseudo-deities to Alola who get attacked by Necrozma, & both were a Cosmog at 1 point. Heck, they're both called as forms of Cosmog by the Pokedex.
Similar story roles, similar histories, same pre-evolutions, a shared typing, both prominently feature Light Manipulation, despite not THAT many shared level-up moves.

If you’re fully suggesting to have boxart legends be grouped under a single Cosmog page not even named after said legends then this entire endeavor is pointless and there’s a zero percent chance of convincing.

I feel like this point is flawed. Plenty of characters change their identity & capabilities, sometimes irreversibly. That does not mean, the higher forms are disconnected from the lower forms, even if in 1 future, they didn't become X.
& species they are, yes, but those species often have characterizations to those species, & the base form has an influence on the capabilities, & arguably, behaviour, of the Final Form. I'd dare call ignoring that influence... well, ignorant.

Look no farther than Charizard, a Pokémon that acts nothing like it does in base. And that’s one of the first.

Tabbers for Powers & Abilities, a single key for when they have nearly identical statistics via comparability, & keys that mention them as a collective ONLY if their statistics somehow differ radically.
"Eevee | Eevee's evolutions". Bam, at most, 2 statistics keys per stat.
Behaviour, intelligence, weaknesses, etc. can be managed with keys, or if verbosity becomes an issue, tabbers.

And what about intelligence? Espeon’s the smartest of the eight. Or what about the fact that Jolteon’s the fastest of them? Their aforementioned weaknesses? That Espeon has better lifting strength through TK? Standard equipment due to held items? The fact that they have different strategies in battle? The fact that these are all going to be on the same profile, we can’t even go into detail on it because it’s just going to be cluttered.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

What if someone doesn’t use the search function I normally go through the verse page also it means we explain edges once separately, on every profile, on one evolution profile all of which are weird by other standards besides eevee is faster to type and as long as you aren’t using mobile version of the site you just click on the tab you want worse case it tells you oh it also has the powers of its previous form/s in this case eevee minus something maybe

Using the verse page, I’m sure casual people are gonna be weirded out that four pictures in a row just take you to the same darned thing. I click on Eevee. It takes me to Eevee. Good. I click on Vaporeon it takes me to…Eevee. Okay. Jolteon takes me to Eevee. And finally…Flareon takes to, you guessed it, Eevee.
And continuing with Eevee, that profile is so big that you do have to scroll through the tabbers to get what you want, if it’s a later Eeveelution. And with the latest one being the third most popular behind Umbreon and Eevee itself, it ain’t looking good for the Sylveon fans.

 

[Bobsican]

Obviously that should be just worked on to just have a single image of all the evolutionary line link to Eevee instead.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's more than debatable, actually, it seems your concern here is smartphones, as in a PC navigating here is more than trivial, I don't even have to open boxes, nor navigate across multiple tabbers within tabbers, you're really overexaggerating this "issue".
Smartphones in their default mode may be uncomfortable to navigate on the site out of how they don't support tabbers and one has to manually scroll, but that's a site-wide issue either way and it has been decided to just continue like this as it's not that bad and there's the possibility Fandom gets updated at some point to cover that. In any case even going by other pages, Eevee's page is more than manageable in a smartphone, and it's far easier to navigate a large page than having to hop across multiple pages that are going to drop redundant information out of being separate.

You’re using some of the most bloated profiles on the site as an example. Sora and Cloud, while both are detailed af, are so large that nobody would want to read them unless you helped build them. This case isn’t as massive but it’s still present. The only way this benefits anyone is if they’re trying to look up all eight Eeveelutions in bulk.

 

[Lou_change]

And continuing with Eevee, that profile is so big that you do have to scroll through the tabbers to get what you want, if it’s a later Eeveelution. And with the latest one being the third most popular behind Umbreon and Eevee itself, it ain’t looking good for the Sylveon fans

Neat trivia you can still just scroll slightly and click sylveon you don’t need to look at any of the others beside eevee for a few seconds.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Heck I just realized that the Eevee profile doesn’t have any redirects.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Neat trivia you can still just scroll slightly and click sylveon you don’t need to look at any of the others beside eevee for a few seconds.

And how is that simpler than just getting what you came for with more information with the original Sylveon profile? Sure it’s two seconds but you don’t even have to spend that how it was before. Not to mention the summary is a mere fragmented sentence for anything that’s not Eevee, furthering my point about how this is just benefitting the base forms and screwing over the forms that people care about.

 

[Bobsican]

You’re using some of the most bloated profiles on the site as an example. Sora and Cloud, while both are detailed af, are so large that nobody would want to read them unless you helped build them. This case isn’t as massive but it’s still present. The only way this benefits anyone is if they’re trying to look up all eight Eeveelutions in bulk.

Actually, I've seen many off-site manage to read Sora's page, if anything what I get in concerns is that P&A sections aren't bullet-listed, but that'd look uglier on a page this long either way, Cloud's page is also plausible to read with enought time, how much time someone takes to read a profile isn't a concern to begin with when it's done in an organized and informative manner that ensures the intended information is given.

Anyone trying to look over whatever Leafeon could do would have to check what Eevee can do by extension, and the same applies to the rest of the evolutionary line, and so it's beneficial to simplyfy indexing and reading contrary to what you appear to believe.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Using the verse page, I’m sure casual people are gonna be weirded out that four pictures in a row just take you to the same darned thing. I click on Eevee. It takes me to Eevee. Good. I click on Vaporeon it takes me to…Eevee. Okay. Jolteon takes me to Eevee. And finally…Flareon takes to, you guessed it, Eevee.
And continuing with Eevee, that profile is so big that you do have to scroll through the tabbers to get what you want, if it’s a later Eeveelution. And with the latest one being the third most popular behind Umbreon and Eevee itself, it ain’t looking good for the Sylveon fans.

Nitpicky, and semantic.

Why are we arguing with this guy again?
"Oh, it'd be weeeeird".

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Actually, I've seen many off-site manage to read Sora's page, if anything what I get in concerns is that P&A sections aren't bullet-listed, but that'd look uglier on a page this long either way, Cloud's page is also plausible to read with enought time, how much time someone takes to read a profile isn't a concern to begin with when it's done in an organized and informative manner that ensures the intended information is given.

Anyone trying to look over whatever Leafeon could do would have to check what Eevee can do by extension, and the same applies to the rest of the evolutionary line, and so it's beneficial to simplyfy indexing and reading contrary to what you appear to believe.

This is an argument about visuals. Please do not indulge him any further, this is becoming redundant.

 

[Half_Shiny]

I agree with combining them just because having exception to the format on near every single page in the pokemon verse makes no real sense

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Nitpicky, and semantic.

Why are we arguing with this guy again?
"Oh, it'd be weeeeird".

This is literally a talk about semantics. This entire thing is purely and unequivocally just visuals and formatting. This isn’t stats or scaling. It’s purely “I want this to look like this” from both ends.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Actually, I've seen many off-site manage to read Sora's page, if anything what I get in concerns is that P&A sections aren't bullet-listed, but that'd look uglier on a page this long either way, Cloud's page is also plausible to read with enought time, how much time someone takes to read a profile isn't a concern to begin with when it's done in an organized and informative manner that ensures the intended information is given.

It’s not a matter of being able to read. Everyone here can read above a third grade level. It’s a matter of keeping interest, which profiles like Sora’s can’t do unless you’re SUPER invested.

Anyone trying to look over whatever Leafeon could do would have to check what Eevee can do by extension, and the same applies to the rest of the evolutionary line, and so it's beneficial to simplyfy indexing and reading contrary to what you appear to believe.

The original Leafeon profile just listed the things Eevee could do on the original profile, without saying “what Eevee can do plus…” so no, they didn’t have to go through profiles.

 

[Lou_change]

And how is that simpler than just getting what you came for with more information with the original Sylveon profile? Sure it’s two seconds but you don’t even have to spend that how it was before. Not to mention the summary is a mere fragmented sentence for anything that’s not Eevee, furthering my point about how this is just benefitting the base forms and screwing over the forms that people care about.

It saves space every branching evolutionary line takes less pages, less space on the verse page those 2 seconds equal a fraction of a second when looking it up or scrolling past them on the verse pages or categories which is going to save more time in the long run I think it is safe to say the effect it would have on those other pages would add up to more

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It saves space every branching evolutionary line takes less pages, less space on the verse page those 2 seconds equal a fraction of a second when looking it up or scrolling past them on the verse pages or categories which is going to save more time in the long run I think it is safe to say the effect it would have on those other pages would add up to more

Looking through the categories isn’t even a good example given how casuals for their first viewing wouldn’t even know that Eevee contains the evos of the rest of the evolutions. They’ll see Eevee. They’re not looking for Eeevee. They’ll move on. They’ll only know if they know Eevee contains the other information.
Also most people just type it in instead of going through the verse page. Not to mention my point is still made, if you plan to delete the photos on the verse page for the evolutions as well (good luck finding cool pictures of Snorunt or Ralts that are as good as their evos btw)

 

[Bobsican]

It’s not a matter of being able to read. Everyone here can read above a third grade level. It’s a matter of keeping interest, which profiles like Sora’s can’t do unless you’re SUPER invested.

The original Leafeon profile just listed the things Eevee could do on the original profile, without saying “what Eevee can do plus…” so no, they didn’t have to go through profiles.

Yeah, pages that are long are like that for a reason, while reading all of it isn't necessary, it's up to the user's discretion to read as much they require, it's our job to provide information in an accessible manner, and not to expect everyone having the interest to read everything.

And that's bad as it requires further editing if anything in Eevee's page is changed per a revision, let alone inconsistent wordings, so that's just counterproductive in comparison of merging the pages.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah, pages that are long are like that for a reason, while reading all of it isn't necessary, it's up to the user's discretion to read as much they require, it's our job to provide information in an accessible manner, and not to expect everyone having the interest to read everything.

Yeah but in cases like that, you have no other choice. You can easily choose in this case by simply not fixing what isn’t broken.

And that's bad as it requires further editing if anything in Eevee's page is changed per a revision, let alone inconsistent wordings, so that's just counterproductive in comparison of merging the pages.

The same thing happens if like…a Saiyan ability is changed. You’d have to edit every single Saiyan in Dragon Ball.