Tsukihime: some Ciel upgrades

[HyperZero95]

Ciel should have a Melty Blood key on her profile.
In Tsukihime, she was only as strong as weakened Arcueid.

In Melty Blood, she was able to defeat Arcueid with 50% of her powers, and Arcueid said that she would fight seriously.
She also defeated CRV Akiha, who can also defeat 50% Arcueid.

This would also make Powered Ciel much higher, since she is much stronger than her base form. In fact, she could kill tatari Red Arcueid, who could defeat her base form, and was even disappointed in her.

 

[HyperZero95]

Bump

 

[Paul_Frank]

My only opinion is ladder scaling cringe, because it's an arcade ladder and 9 times out of 10, the exact opposite thing happens on the opposite character's ladder

If you wanna scale people at least find additional non ladder statements or feats, i.e use stuff in the manga to scale, like her fighting Shiki and Sion at the same time and winning so hard that Sion needed to amp Shiki, and then Ciel still didn't lose, she just walked away, and this all was fairly non serious Ciel.

 

[HyperZero95]

My only opinion is ladder scaling cringe, because it's an arcade ladder and 9 times out of 10, the exact opposite thing happens on the opposite character's ladder

If you wanna scale people at least find additional non ladder statements or feats, i.e use stuff in the manga to scale, like her fighting Shiki and Sion at the same time and winning so hard that Sion needed to amp Shiki, and then Ciel still didn't lose, she just walked away, and this all was fairly non serious Ciel.

Don't see what's wrong on that. The arcade makes sense most of the times and even explains many fights, like Sion saying that Aoko was going easy on her or Nanaya being injured against Kouma. There is nothing that contradicts Ciel being that strong as far as i know.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

You realize this would backscale to servants right?

 

[HyperZero95]

You realize this would backscale to servants right?

Why?

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Why?

Ciel, in a battle of Magecraft and power would lose to Medea.

Ciel is citied as only being able to fight equally with servants.

Kirei Kotomine can, in his prime with Command Seal boosts, possibly defeat Ciel. Kirei is only able to compete with weak servants.

The list goes on.

 

[HyperZero95]

Ciel, in a battle of Magecraft and power would lose to Medea.

Ciel is citied as only being able to fight equally with servants.

Kirei Kotomine can, in his prime with Command Seal boosts, possibly defeat Ciel. Kirei is only able to compete with weak servants.

The list goes on.

Those only refers to Tsukihime Ciel. Melty Blood Ciel is way stronger. 30% Arcueid was said to be above Servants and Ciel in MB is even stronger than that.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Those only refers to Tsukihime Ciel. Melty Blood Ciel is way stronger. 30% Arcueid was said to be above Servants and Ciel in MB is even stronger than that.

Using ladder dialogue scaling which, if running the opposite character's ladder, will be inverted in result.

Do we have Ciel scale above 50% Arcueid who scales above Ciel?

 

[HyperZero95]

Using ladder dialogue scaling which, if running the opposite character's ladder, will be inverted in result.

Do we have Ciel scale above 50% Arcueid who scales above Ciel?

50% Arcueid never defeats Ciel as far as i know.
If Ciel wasn't strong enough to beat that Arcueid, then she wouldn't have faced her in her arcade to begin with.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

So Nanaya Shiki defeats Kouma in his ladder, then Kouma defeats Nanaya in his ladder.

Do they scale above each other to infinity?

 

[HyperZero95]

So Nanaya Shiki defeats Kouma in his ladder, then Kouma defeats Nanaya in his ladder.

Do they scale above each other to infinity?

I don't really understand what do you mean. It was noted that Nanaya was injured by his previous fights, so he wasn't at full strength against Kouma. And if they defeat each other it simply means that they are equals.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Also, if we stretch this to include Type Lumina:

Roa in SHIKI's body is superior to Shiki Tohno despite losing to him, Ciel despite being explicitly inferior to her, and 30% Arcueid despite being casually killed by her in the Tsukihime Remake.

This also means that Shiki is superior to Vlov despite stating himself that a single hit would mean the end in Tsuki:Re, that Vlov can injure 30% Arcueid and even kill her despite that being objectively impossible according to both Arcueid and Vlov in Tsuki:Re, etc., etc.

You see why Ladder Scaling can't be used? It results in ridiculous notions like these.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Those only refers to Tsukihime Ciel. Melty Blood Ciel is way stronger. 30% Arcueid was said to be above Servants and Ciel in MB is even stronger than that.

But that statement came after MB was made though, a few years after in fact

50% Arcueid never defeats Ciel as far as i know.
If Ciel wasn't strong enough to beat that Arcueid, then she wouldn't have faced her in her arcade to begin with.

Also yes, Arc's ladder has Ciel as like, the third opponent, and being an arcade ladder, Arcueid wins

 

[HyperZero95]

But that statement came after MB was made though

It still would refer to Tsukihime Ciel.

Also yes, Arc's ladder has Ciel as like, the third opponent, and being an arcade ladder, Arcueid wins

Then that means that they are on the same level.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It still would refer to Tsukihime Ciel.

Do you have anything to support this claim? Why would Nasu be only referring to the Tsukihime one if MB was out by then he never specified Tsukihime either

Then that means that they are on the same level.

Or, maybe, just maybe, arcade scaling is dumb

Because not only do you get Ciel>Arc in her route, but Arc>Ciel in Arc's route, you get Nanaya>Kouma>Nanaya, Arcueid>Archetype Earth

That last one also leads into Arcueid>Archetype Earth>Powered Ciel>Red Arcueid>Arcueid

 

[HyperZero95]

Do you have anything to support this claim? Why would Nasu be only referring to the Tsukihime one if MB was out by then he never specified Tsukihime either

Because MB Ciel is too much for Kirei going by feats. Just her being stronger than Ciel in the manga places her above Kirei. This statement only makes sense if it is referring to Tsukihime Ciel.

Because not only do you get Ciel>Arc in her route, but Arc>Ciel in Arc's route,

If they can defeat each other then it means that they are on the same level.

you get Nanaya>Kouma>Nanaya

Kouma only beats an injured Nanaya. He said it himself that he was being hindered. In Act Cadenza he is fine and he beats Kouma with no troubles.

Arcueid>Archetype Earth

Arc never defeats Archetype Earth. She only beats her in a mental fight for the control of her body.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Because MB Ciel is too much for Kirei going by feats. Just her being stronger than Ciel in the manga places her above Kirei. This statement only makes sense if it is referring to Tsukihime Ciel.

This is more than a little arbitrary. Since when did we get to decide which version is being mentioned by the author?

 

[HyperZero95]

This is more than a little arbitrary. Since when did we get to decide which version is being mentioned by the author?

Can Kirei beat 30% Arcueid and Nrvnqsr Chaos? Because MB Ciel can do that going by the manga alone.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Because MB Ciel is too much for Kirei going by feats. Just her being stronger than Ciel in the manga places her above Kirei. This statement only makes sense if it is referring to Tsukihime Ciel.

That's not how it works kek. It's a WoG statement for Caster winning, and for Kirei having a chance, these statements were made after MB, Ciel "having better feats" (if you make her 1-C off of Arcade Scaling) doesn't suddenly mean "okay so despite never saying it, he clearly only meant this weaker version"

If they can defeat each other then it means that they are on the same level.

Or again, the arcade scaling is just not good because this happens in nearly every matchup in ladder scaling, person A beats person B, but person B also beats person A
There's a reason this isn't used for like, any fighting game

Kouma only beats an injured Nanaya. He said it himself that he was being hindered. In Act Cadenza he is fine and he beats Kouma with no troubles.

That's not what I'm referring to in Cadenza Kouma only fights Tohno in his own ladder, Tohno btw, beats Nanaya in his own ladder. So even with just Cadenza you get Kouma>Tohno>Nanaya>Kouma

In AACC is what I was referring to, they both beat eachother in their endings. Kouma kills Nanaya, Nanaya kills Kouma

Arc never defeats Archetype Earth. She only beats her in a mental fight for the control of her body.

See you say this, but Ciel specifically mentions a crater left after the fight, AE also asks Arc if she's always been prone to sleepwalking, and tells her to defending herself from her advances, all of these imply an actual fight did occur somehow, because it's a weird dreamspace, the crater most of all, because a mental battle isn't going to destroy the surroundings

Can Kirei beat 30% Arcueid and Nrvnqsr Chaos? Because MB Ciel can do that going by the manga alone.

Again, this isn't how it works, if the WoG says it's the character, you don't get to choose which version of the character they meant, unless they mention one, you can't assume they meant a weaker one instead of the more recent one, just because you think one is stronger. also using Chaos as a point is weird because his main thing is usually not being hard to kill due to outright power, but the immortality

Btw, another way ladder scaling gets this all scaling back to servants is that Kouma in his ladder fights the same 50% Arc you're saying Ciel is relative to, Kouma is relative to Araya who Ryougi can fight and Ryougi fights servants, even losing against one

I'm really just not sure how you can keep pushing for ladder scaling with all of this, just use the manga and scale her to Tohno and stuff

 

[CrystalValley]

My only opinion is ladder scaling cringe, because it's an arcade ladder and 9 times out of 10, the exact opposite thing happens on the opposite character's ladder

If you wanna scale people at least find additional non ladder statements or feats, i.e use stuff in the manga to scale, like her fighting Shiki and Sion at the same time and winning so hard that Sion needed to amp Shiki, and then Ciel still didn't lose, she just walked away, and this all was fairly non serious Ciel.

i've already told you this is blatantly wrong. there's only a handful off fights in the ladder that are canon (ones with dialogue). the rest are just gameplay fights to have the player do something. generally, around 3 to 4 fights are actually canon per arcade. and this website not only uses these feats for profiles, but has entire profiles based on the arcade feats. they are canon and add lore. if you want to dismiss arcade feats, then make a CRT on deleting entire profiles like White Len and Osiris.

the original Melty Blood also didn't have any arcade routes and was purely just a VN style story. Ciel clearly got stronger there and was able to hold off Shiki and significantly injure Sion. though the Tohno thing isn't that impressive considering his combative capabilities massively spike depending on how much of his Nanaya instincts he's tapping into and how much he wants to kill someone, to which he obviously didn't want to seriously harm Ciel. that same Sion however could contend with Arcueid in the original Melty Blood.

and if two characters beat each other in their respective runs of the game, that really just gives the implication that they are in the same league and the fight could have multiple outcomes.

with that being said, I disagree on using Ciel beating Akiha as a feat, since that is Tatari Akiha, who wouldn't be as strong as the real one that fought and beat Arcueid. the real Akiha hasn't suffered any real losses in MB.

oh and Ciel never mentioned a crater where Arcueid and Archetype fought. that was never stated ever. how can they even fight if they are the same person in the same body? Archetype even said that she's taken Arcueid's vessel for herself. it was clearly a mental battle. Arcueid even said she woke up from the dream.

 

[CrystalValley]

Ciel, in a battle of Magecraft and power would lose to Medea.

Ciel is citied as only being able to fight equally with servants.

Kirei Kotomine can, in his prime with Command Seal boosts, possibly defeat Ciel. Kirei is only able to compete with weak servants.

The list goes on.

magecraft has to do with mystery. she can't harm Medea if her mystery isn't high enough. power is irrelevant.

the servant comparison has been massively contradicted, especially with MB. Nasu interview statements only hold up when they aren't massively contradicted. Servants consistently struggle with bullets and are described to be in the speed of sound range. Tsukihime characters are consistent lightning timers and survive getting moons slammed into them, Nanaya physically destroying all of Nrvnqsr's lives in Re-Act etc. Ciel also massively gets stronger clearly in MB. she goes from being inferior to a half dead Arcueid to beating Sion in the original VN style story of the original Melty Blood while holding off a no killing intent Tohno. and Sion alone was able to contend with an Arcueid with her power restored, though was still inferior. nothing ever compares Servants to Melty Blood Ciel.

this website also went on and on and on about how they don't use Nasu interview statements at all, even if they aren't contradicted. you don't get to arbitrarily pick and choose when to use interview statements and when not to for no real reason. especially since you guys rejected ones that aren't even contradicted before.

TLDR: servants are fodder, but even if we pretend these statements hold up and haven't been contradicted by feats and other statements even, no Servant was ever compared to Melty Blood Ciel. this is one of the main reasons placing them above Tohno doesn't work as well, considering there are many iterations of him. and you could easily say they are only comparing him to his early game self that is by far the weakest, since that's the only one that doesn't have feats going well beyond.

but you guys have rejected all Nasuverse interview statements before, so it really doesn't matter.

and Type Lumina is an entirely different canon. I don't know why you're bringing it up at all. the original canon Melty Blood arcades actually add lore and try to stay consistent in each game. it also has a VN style story for the original that isn't an arcade run at all that has Ciel around the level of Arcueid due to her easily handling Sion.

i think the OP's reasoning could've been better though. he didn't mention this and the Tatari Akiha thing doesn't work.

 

[HyperZero95]

It's a WoG statement for Caster winning,

The comparison with Caster specifically talked about a battle of magecraft. It didn't say that Caster will always win in any situation. Caster has AOG magecraft, so she is naturally superior to Ciel, but that's not really a manner of raw power, just Caster being a bad match up for Ciel. In fact, it was also said that Caster could beat Aoko (again in a battle of magecraft only) even though Aoko was confirmed to be able to fight Arcueid and stronger Servants like Saber.
It's like saying that Berserker beats Gilgamesh in arm wrestling. Sure, it's true, but Gil still remains more powerful overall.

and for Kirei having a chance, these statements were made after MB, Ciel "having better feats" (if you make her 1-C off of Arcade Scaling) doesn't suddenly mean "okay so despite never saying it, he clearly only meant this weaker version"

So Kirei can defeat 30% Arcueid and is more powerful than Servants? It is clearly referring to Tsukihime Ciel. The actual novel even compared Kirei in his prime to a random Dead Apostle, so he is nowhere near strong enough to beat MB Ciel.

person A beats person B, but person B also beats person A

If that happens, it means that those two characters are in the same league.

That's not what I'm referring to in Cadenza Kouma only fights Tohno in his own ladder, Tohno btw, beats Nanaya in his own ladder. So even with just Cadenza you get Kouma>Tohno>Nanaya>Kouma

Kouma does not actually beat Tohno in his story. In the ending, he disappears and he says "you escaped death, Tohno".

In AACC is what I was referring to, they both beat eachother in their endings. Kouma kills Nanaya, Nanaya kills Kouma

Which means that Kouma is on par with an injured Nanaya. Nanaya clearly said that the injuries from his previous fights were hindering him. In Act Cadenza he is fine and kills Kouma and the reverse never happens.

See you say this, but Ciel specifically mentions a crater left after the fight, AE also asks Arc if she's always been prone to sleepwalking, and tells her to defending herself from her advances, all of these imply an actual fight did occur somehow, because it's a weird dreamspace, the crater most of all, because a mental battle isn't going to destroy the surroundings

Ciel never mentioned a crater. And if she did, she is most likely referring to the crater left by the battle between herself and Archetype. The location where Arc "fought" Archetype is completely different than the one where she and Ciel actually were. Arc and AE are even in the same body, it is downright impossible for them to fight each other outside of a mental fight.

Again, this isn't how it works, if the WoG says it's the character, you don't get to choose which version of the character they meant, unless they mention one, you can't assume they meant a weaker one instead of the more recent one, just because you think one is stronger. also using Chaos as a point is weird because his main thing is usually not being hard to kill due to outright power, but the immortality

Kirei was compared to a random Dead Apostle and cannot defeat Servants unless he has some factors in his favor. Meanwhile MB Ciel defeats DAAs and can fight the strongest True Ancestor. There is no comparison. It's just being logical. If the quote really meant that Kirei can defeat MB Ciel, then it should be disregarded since it completely breaks what was established by many other sources.
Chaos is still a strong DAA. He would have obliterated Ciel if she wasn't that strong. Just because he is hard to kill it does not mean that his offense is weak.

Btw, another way ladder scaling gets this all scaling back to servants is that Kouma in his ladder fights the same 50% Arc you're saying Ciel is relative to, Kouma is relative to Araya who Ryougi can fight and Ryougi fights servants, even losing against one

Kouma never even meets Arcueid in any of his stories.

 

[HyperZero95]

i think the OP's reasoning could've been better though. he didn't mention this and the Tatari Akiha thing doesn't work.

Oh, i missed that she was a fake Akiha. My point still stands though. Ciel could fight Arcueid with her power restored and was above Sion in the first MB.

 

[CrystalValley]

Oh, i missed that she was a fake Akiha. My point still stands though. Ciel could fight Arcueid with her power restored and was above Sion in the first MB.

yeah, i think you should've mentioned how Sion can hold her own against MB Arcueid and Ciel can defeat her while also dealing with a no killing intent Tohno, which would automatically put her around that level. well it wasn't mentioned in the OP at least.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Ladder feats in fighting games should not be used. This has been established years ago and we are not breaking it now. I agree with Paul.

 

[CrystalValley]

Ladder feats in fighting games should not be used. This has been established years ago and we are not breaking it now. I agree with Paul.

except you have entire profiles based off these feats and many keys based off of them. it doesn't matter what you agree with. the website uses them. so unless you're going to make a CRT to remove entire keys and entire character pages, they are valid. and they add lore and try to stay consistent.

"we aren't breaking it now" but have used them billions of times already. consistency please.