Izuku vs Shenhe (Deku vs ice woman)

[Pikaman]

And how good even is their flight? It looks more like they levitate slightly off the ground rather than can fly over a hundred meters into the sky like Deku will.

You can see her Cryo avatar flying perfectly fine over lengthy horizontal and vertical distances, as well as scaling to Shenhe’s speed in her character demo. In a match where speed is equalised they should have no problem keeping on Deku’s tail.

He can’t really destroy the clones unless air pressure or Blackwhip count for being able to damage them,

Actually, would air pressure count as Anemo damage? I’m leading toward no right now as it isn’t particularly/strictly elemental damage, at least I think? Idk enough about MHA to give specifics on the way it works

but he also doesn’t need to. He just needs to deal with Shenhe. If the worst thing the clones can do is damage with a field around them then he will just deal with it since his pain tolerance is absurd or will avoid them to build up Fa Jin instead. Just hit and run from outside of her and the clones range mid air because Shenhe herself is helpless in the air compared to Deku.

Again, the cryo avatar can keep up with him, since he himself can’t damage them, they can just keep causing problems while Shenhe uses elemental intangibility to keep herself from harms way. Assuming Danger Sense keeps the avatar from actually managing to hit Deku, it’s a stalemate with neither managing to tag the other.

Also, do the clones operate with her knowledge or their own? Can they sense him like she possibly can? Or does smokescreen work on them?

The Cryo avatars probably work on Shenhe’s knowledge, which includes sensing an opponent through a smokescreen, given their pure elemental biology, they should especially have no problem tracking someone down through elemental traces

How many can she summon?

I don’t think(?) Shenhe can summon more than one at a time

If only one then I really don’t see a threat

Why not? It’s an enemy that Deku can’t hit, can keep up with him, and essentially works as a second Shenhe he has to deal without being given a chance to retaliate. Even with danger sense it still acts as distraction enough to make sure Deku never gets a good opportunity to tag the real Shenhe, especially given her own elemental intangibility

 

[Kingofwolves999]

You can see her Cryo avatar flying perfectly fine over lengthy horizontal and vertical distances, as well as scaling to Shenhe’s speed in her character demo. In a match where speed is equalised they should have no problem keeping on Deku’s tail.

Deku's Flight + Blackwhip increasing his speed in the air is better than this clones flight. He has multiple methods of movement mid air that he uses not just one, which the clone has. Also his method of movement is kicking off the air for bursts of speed, which would make him faster than the clone over short bursts on top of Blackwhip already increasing his speed.

Also in that character demo those monsters demonstrably touched the clone. Do they have NPI with those axes? Or can Deku just grab the clone with Blackwhip?

Actually, would air pressure count as Anemo damage? I’m leading toward no right now as it isn’t particularly/strictly elemental damage, at least I think? Idk enough about MHA to give specifics on the way it works

Air Force is just him sending shockwaves of air with brute force. Not magic, so IDK.

Again, the cryo avatar can keep up with him, since he himself can’t damage them, they can just keep causing problems while Shenhe uses elemental intangibility to keep herself from harms way. Assuming Danger Sense keeps the avatar from actually managing to hit Deku, it’s a stalemate with neither managing to tag the other.

It cannot keep up with him when he's swinging around with Blackwhip or amps with Fa Jin. And even then its wasting its time trying to hit him. He can easily outmaneuver it in the air and go for Shenhe.

The Cryo avatars probably work on Shenhe’s knowledge, which includes sensing an opponent through a smokescreen, given their pure elemental biology, they should especially have no problem tracking someone down through elemental traces

Again, Deku has none. How's that CRT going for her having that btw? Or if it even applies to Deku since he has no elemental anything?

I don’t think(?) Shenhe can summon more than one at a time

Why not? It’s an enemy that Deku can’t hit, can keep up with him, and essentially works as a second Shenhe he has to deal without being given a chance to retaliate. Even with danger sense it still acts as distraction enough to make sure Deku never gets a good opportunity to tag the real Shenhe, especially given her own elemental intangibility

So it's one easily avoidable enemy that he CAN get around because he has far more options in the air than it has, is far better at planning than it and doesn't have to engage with it at all. He doesn't need a chance to retaliate when he can literally sense when its going to attack before it has even connected, and its only going to be distracting for so long before Deku realizes he should just go for Shenhe. Then, when Shenhe reveals her own dodge, he avoids the clone more until he predicts her dodge and catches her anyway.

This is all just a game of Tag with Deku being the only one actually gaining anything. The clone is an annoyance at best in the air that he can absolutely get around, and Shenhe's intangibility isn't perfect or a free pass that she can spam without Deku catching on. He avoids the clone, predicts the intangibility and now Shenhe is caught by 6 Blackwhip strands sprouting from Deku's back as he moves past her and is getting dragged into the air while bound or catching a Fa Jin kick to the chin while she's restrained. Now what does she do when he keeps doing that?

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

and now Shenhe is caught by 6 Blackwhip strands sprouting from Deku's back as he moves past her and is getting dragged into the air while bound

Let gravity to the rest

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Actually, if the clone is capable of grabbing objects and physically interacting with the world, why can't Deku grab it when it is clearly solid and touching him to throw it away before going for Shenhe? Or is it a non all or nothing thing.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Based on Kings reasons

Well, "solos" is a bad word tbh, its like you just wanked him for bias reason (sorry lel)

 

[Pikaman]

Actually, if the clone is capable of grabbing objects and physically interacting with the world, why can't Deku grab it when it is clearly solid and touching him to throw it away before going for Shenhe? Or is it a non all or nothing thing.

The Cryo avatar is a being made of pure elemental energy, which grants it elemental intangibility as part of its biology. An example of this are Genshin slimes, which have similar biology, and characters that can hit them (all playable characters) have this feat listed as ground for interacting with intangible characters.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

The Cryo avatar is a being made of pure elemental energy, which grants it elemental intangibility as part of its biology. An example of this are Genshin slimes, which have similar biology, and characters that can hit them (all playable characters) have this feat listed as ground for interacting with intangible characters.

I'm asking because if the avatar can touch and be pushed by what seems to be completely normal, unamplified axes, then why can't Deku push it with Blackwhip?

 

[SuperStar]

Well, "solos" is a bad word tbh, its like you just wanked him for bias reason (sorry lel)

lmao

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

lmao

Well we have that biased side and want to wank the f*** out our characters

 

[Pikaman]

Deku's Flight + Blackwhip increasing his speed in the air is better than this clones flight. He has multiple methods of movement mid air that he uses not just one, which the clone has. Also his method of movement is kicking off the air for bursts of speed, which would make him faster than the clone over short bursts

Surely when speed is equalised stuff like different take-off methods for flight are also equalised? Even if it’s not Shenhe’s amps (which should apply to her avatar as well) mean the avatar can keep up with Deku even with blackwhip.

Also in that character demo those monsters demonstrably touched the clone. Do they have NPI with those axes? Or can Deku just grab the clone with Blackwhip?

Genshin’s elemental intangibility is…. weird. On paper you sound right but stuff like swords being able to deal with slimes, made of pure elemental energy, mean that basic melee weapons in the Genshin world do have at least some form of NPI, my guess is that these weapons have been forged with those properties, which wouldn’t be the wackiest stuff melee weapons have been shown capable of.

Air Force is just him sending shockwaves of air with brute force. Not magic, so IDK.

I doubt this counts as anemo damage then. There’s a difference between wind, the force of nature, and anemo, the wind element. It’s slight, but only one would really constitute NPI when it came to Shenhe’s Cryo avatar

Again, Deku has none.

Deku wouldn’t give off any elemental energy, but humans have been shown to have different appearances in elemental sight when compared to terrain, meaning he would still be traceable, also, if the Cryo Avatar literally got even a sprinkle of an attack on Deku, he would be marked with Cryo, which makes him even easier to spot out.

is far better at planning than it

This came out of left field? I’ve already talked about how Shenhe has the advantage in combat training and her Cryo Avatar would share her knowledge, making it perfectly capable of forging a battle plan equal to or superior to Deku’s. Especially when it can work in tandem with Shenhe, adding an extra layer that only Deku would have to worry about.

Then, when Shenhe reveals her own dodge, he avoids the clone more until he predicts her dodge and catches her anyway.

I’ve already gone over how Shenhe’s elemental intangibility has varied length and that she can mix up how long she stays intangible in order to keep Deku guessing throughout the remainder of the fight.

This is all just a game of Tag with Deku being the only one actually gaining anything. The clone is an annoyance at best in the air that he can absolutely get around, and Shenhe's intangibility isn't perfect or a free pass that she can spam without Deku catching on. He avoids the clone, predicts the intangibility and now Shenhe is caught by 6 Blackwhip strands sprouting from Deku's back as he moves past her and is getting dragged into the air while bound or catching a Fa Jin kick to the chin while she's restrained. Now what does she do when he keeps doing that?

Shenhe can use her elemental intangibility in short bursts, meaning a temporary blip where she gets caught could just be moved out of just as quick.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

The Cryo avatar is a being made of pure elemental energy, which grants it elemental intangibility as part of its biology. An example of this are Genshin slimes, which have similar biology, and characters that can hit them (all playable characters) have this feat listed as ground for interacting with intangible characters.

Don't average joe knights fight slimes? Also slimes are kept in barrels

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I'm asking because if the avatar can touch and be pushed by what seems to be completely normal, unamplified axes, then why can't Deku push it with Blackwhip?

EI in Genshin is weird no elemental beings are ever actually treated as being intangible however Traveler and allogenes have feats of interacting with occuli which I heard are intangible also Traveler beat up a spirit once.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Surely when speed is equalised stuff like different take-off methods for flight are also equalised? Even if it’s not Shenhe’s amps (which should apply to her avatar as well) mean the avatar can keep up with Deku even with blackwhip.

It's not take off methods its how he moves mid air. Against someone comparable in speed, he can move faster by using Blackwhip to swing around, and his Fa Jin is just a direct amp.

Genshin’s elemental intangibility is…. weird. On paper you sound right but stuff like swords being able to deal with slimes, made of pure elemental energy, mean that basic melee weapons in the Genshin world do have at least some form of NPI, my guess is that these weapons have been forged with those properties, which wouldn’t be the wackiest stuff melee weapons have been shown capable of.

I doubt this counts as anemo damage then. There’s a difference between wind, the force of nature, and anemo, the wind element. It’s slight, but only one would really constitute NPI when it came to Shenhe’s Cryo avatar

I have no comment on wacky elemental intangibility stuff other than "Ok, I believe you"

Deku wouldn’t give off any elemental energy, but humans have been shown to have different appearances in elemental sight when compared to terrain, meaning he would still be traceable, also, if the Cryo Avatar literally got even a sprinkle of an attack on Deku, he would be marked with Cryo, which makes him even easier to spot out.

(Please just let smokescreen be useful this one time) Would he be traceable through smokescreen or around buildings though? Could he do what he did against Nagant and just bounce around and behind buildings?

This came out of left field? I’ve already talked about how Shenhe has the advantage in combat training and her Cryo Avatar would share her knowledge, making it perfectly capable of forging a battle plan equal to or superior to Deku’s. Especially when it can work in tandem with Shenhe, adding an extra layer that only Deku would have to worry about.

And I've talked about how Deku's Analytical Prediction is way better than anything Shenhe has so far shown in this thread. His feat against Nagant is already a ridiculous testament to his intelligence, and I have no frame of reference for Shenhe other than her combat training. Deku's planning seems to be far better than hers, while her combat skill is better than his. So I'm hard pressed to find a reason he wouldn't be able to outsmart the clone even if it shares her knowledge.

I’ve already gone over how Shenhe’s elemental intangibility has varied length and that she can mix up how long she stays intangible in order to keep Deku guessing throughout the remainder of the fight.

He could predict when bullets were going to appear without knowing their origin, having no knowledge of when they were shot, were curving around buildings and were faster than him. He could track someone's trajectory and movements just from the shots they sent at him that were coming from random directions. Against Mirio, who literally goes underground and is undetectable, he could predict when he was going to come out, before he had months of training to be far smarter and better at predicting.

It doesn't matter if Shenhe can vary her intangibility, Deku would predict when she comes out of it, as he has done so to others that could also vary their methods of avoiding his predictions.

Shenhe can use her elemental intangibility in short bursts, meaning a temporary blip where she gets caught could just be moved out of just as quick.

Then he grabs her again after predicting the next one because there is a clear visual queue when she does so? Or attacks instead of grabs in the short interval she isn't intangible like he did Mirio? And if she tries to defend he uses Fa Jin and gets past her defense?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Sol should be here for this or something he gave some reason for non physical interaction and intangibility but I don't remember

 

[TauanVictor]

So, what would Deku's wincons be here?

 

[SuperStar]

So, what would Deku's wincons be here?

don't get hit and hit hard

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So, what would Deku's wincons be here?

Drive-by Fa Jin

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

So, what would Deku's wincons be here?

Combo Shenhe Until she’s either unconscious or dead

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Don't average joe knights fight slimes? Also slimes are kept in barrels

they’re implied to if I’m correct

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

they’re implied to if I’m correct

Yeah so like Genshin Intangibility is weird as heck. Like the assumption at this point is like everyone can interact with non physical stuff even when the creature behaves like a physical thing

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Don't average joe knights fight slimes? Also slimes are kept in barrels

NPI barrels?

 

[Pikaman]

Don't average joe knights fight slimes? Also slimes are kept in barrels

If you have a problem with genshin’s rules on elemental intangibility you can bring that up in a CRT but rn pure elemental beings have elemental intangibility and that includes Shenhe’s Cryo Avatar

You can read above why I reckon regular melee weapons are capable of damaging slimes, and I’m sure there’s some explanation for the barrels. If you’re talking about the exploding and freezing bomb barrels I’m like 99% sure those aren’t regular barrels lol

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Enchanted Barrel

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

NPI barrels?

Basically

If you have a problem with genshin’s rules on elemental intangibility you can bring that up in a CRT but rn pure elemental beings have elemental intangibility and that includes Shenhe’s Cryo Avatar

You can read above why I reckon regular melee weapons are capable of damaging slimes, and I’m sure there’s some explanation for the barrels. If you’re talking about the exploding and freezing bomb barrels I’m like 99% sure those aren’t regular barrels lol

I might make a CRT at some point but let me ask you this: how many mods are on the Genshin side of this wiki? Cause if it’s still one or two I’m not touching any CRT.

 

[Pikaman]

So, what would Deku's wincons be here?

Overcome Shenhe’s cryo avatar and get in close on Shenhe enough to take her out

Shenhe doesn’t really have a viable wincon, I’m pushing for incon because I don’t think Deku can reliably tag Shenhe enough either.

 

[Pikaman]

(Please just let smokescreen be useful this one time) Would he be traceable through smokescreen or around buildings though? Could he do what he did against Nagant and just bounce around and behind buildings?

Through smokescreen? Yes, through buildings? Less so, but still to a very minor degree I think? I’ll double check that tomorrow

I’ll cover the rest of this tomorrow

 

[TauanVictor]

Overcome Shenhe’s cryo avatar and get in close on Shenhe enough to take her out

Shenhe doesn’t really have a viable wincon, I’m pushing for incon because I don’t think Deku can reliably tag Shenhe enough either.

I see.

Shenhe also has his own Intangibility and Teleportation, as well as having the same degree of intelligence as Deku.

However, if Shenhe can't beat Deku, it's a stomp or mismatch because both can't be beaten.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I see.

Shenhe also has his own Intangibility and Teleportation, as well as having the same degree of intelligence as Deku.

However, if Shenhe can't beat Deku, it's a stomp or mismatch because both can't be beaten.

Both have been addressed, he can predict them with his Analytical Prediction, even if she varies the timing. That's the actual problem with Deku she's facing, not any of his powers except Danger Sense.

She can beat him if she can hit him enough times, even though it would still take a hell of a long time if she could. He just has a more viable win con to me of predicting her moves, dodging with Danger Sense and getting hits with Fa Jin.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Slimes are elemental beings but they are condensed elemental energies. even if they are built up from intangible things I'm pretty sure they are physical. well at least their outer layers (Anemo slime pops like a balloon releasing air/anemo before perishing completely while pyro slimes just flat out explode because they release the condensed elemental energies within them). Cryo avatar is different from that.

regarding the mitachurl
the mitachurls who uses slimes to infuse their attack with elemental energy basically kills the slime by doing so and I'm pretty sure they have enough skill or ability to interact and use elemental energy because wooden shield mitachurl can convert dendro slime into a full shield.

well at least that's my take

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Regarding the interaction of the Cryo Avatar and the axes, the context was the Cryo Avatar blocking those attacks before they hit Chongyun, so I don't consider the physical contact in this particular instance as implausible since simply having them pass through would have caused them to hit Chongyun.

 

[Shey]

Regarding the interaction of the Cryo Avatar and the axes, the context was the Cryo Avatar blocking those attacks before they hit Chongyun, so I don't consider the physical contact in this particular instance as implausible since simply having them pass through would have caused them to hit Chongyun.

Makes sense

 

[Kingofwolves999]

I’ve just accepted the elemental intangibility, someone else can argue it

 

[Pikaman]

Yeah regardless of how weird the genshin rules on elemental intangibility are, they are on the wiki so as it stands that’s what we have to go on, similar to how Shenhe is restricted by a lack of concrete Adepti arts in this fight because while she definitely knows them all, we’ve never seen her use many/any in action to add them to her profile.

I have no problem with a CRT going up but even then I doubt it would change Shenhe’s Cryo Avatar’s status

 

[Pikaman]

It's not take off methods its how he moves mid air. Against someone comparable in speed, he can move faster by using Blackwhip to swing around, and his Fa Jin is just a direct amp.

Again, Shenhe’s own amps would allow her avatar to keep up with this. Even if the avatar ended up very slightly slowly, it wouldn’t matter because it could just stay close to Shenhe and act as an almost bodyguard at times if it needed to. Keeping the battle firmly on the ground and up close, where Shenhe probably holds the advantage.

And I've talked about how Deku's Analytical Prediction is way better than anything Shenhe has so far shown in this thread. His feat against Nagant is already a ridiculous testament to his intelligence, and I have no frame of reference for Shenhe other than her combat training. Deku's planning seems to be far better than hers, while her combat skill is better than his. So I'm hard pressed to find a reason he wouldn't be able to outsmart the clone even if it shares her knowledge.

I’ve gone over Shenhe’s ability to absolutely keep up with Deku’s smarts. They’re both listed as geniuses on their profiles, and while Shenhe doesn’t have Deku’s analytical abilities, her training with the Adepti, beings above the realm of mortal humans in all things including combat, mean that her fighting abilities would be unlike anything Deku’s had to come up against before. Combined with the fact there are plenty of different forms of these arts, and she has more than enough up her sleeve to make sure Deku doesn’t know what’s coming next.

He could predict when bullets were going to appear without knowing their origin, having no knowledge of when they were shot, were curving around buildings and were faster than him. He could track someone's trajectory and movements just from the shots they sent at him that were coming from random directions. Against Mirio, who literally goes underground and is undetectable, he could predict when he was going to come out, before he had months of training to be far smarter and better at predicting.

Ok, fair enough, looks like Shenhe is gonna take a few hits here.

 

[Pikaman]

She can beat him if she can hit him enough times, even though it would still take a hell of a long time if she could.

Hold up I thought we were going under the assumption Shenhe couldn’t get a hit in because of danger sense? Effectively ruling out any win-con? Or am I missing something here

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Again, Shenhe’s own amps would allow her avatar to keep up with this. Even if the avatar ended up very slightly slowly, it wouldn’t matter because it could just stay close to Shenhe and act as an almost bodyguard at times if it needed to. Keeping the battle firmly on the ground and up close, where Shenhe probably holds the advantage.

It being slightly slower is the idea, he just needs to outpace it. And he just wouldn't be on the ground since he'd notice Shenhe can't fly. So he'd either just use Fa Jin solely or Blackwhip. If he is on the ground, its either to use Fa Jin, get around the clone or fake her out.

I’ve gone over Shenhe’s ability to absolutely keep up with Deku’s smarts. They’re both listed as geniuses on their profiles, and while Shenhe doesn’t have Deku’s analytical abilities, her training with the Adepti, beings above the realm of mortal humans in all things including combat, mean that her fighting abilities would be unlike anything Deku’s had to come up against before. Combined with the fact there are plenty of different forms of these arts, and she has more than enough up her sleeve to make sure Deku doesn’t know what’s coming next.

Is the implication here that Deku is in anyway a normal mortal by Genshin standards? I have yet to see anything to suggest she would be harder or even as hard to beat as Lady Nagant whose skill is astronomically higher than anything a mortal could do either. And he doesn't have to know what's coming next because Danger Sense is designed to protect him from that.

Hold up I thought we were going under the assumption Shenhe couldn’t get a hit in because of danger sense? Effectively ruling out any win-con? Or am I missing something here

Hence why I said "if she could." She really can't get hits on him and definitely not enough to take him out in a reasonable time.

 

[Pikaman]

It being slightly slower is the idea, he just needs to outpace it. And he just wouldn't be on the ground since he'd notice Shenhe can't fly. So he'd either just use Fa Jin solely or Blackwhip. If he is on the ground, its either to use Fa Jin, get around the clone or fake her out.

I was only talking hypotheticals when I discussed the Cryo Avatar’s potential lower speed, it’s more likely given Shenhe’s own amps the two are about equal at their peaks.

Is the implication here that Deku is in anyway a normal mortal by Genshin standards?

Ehhhhhh… his wide variety of quirks and abilities would certainly be a very special attribute, shared only by the traveller, but in terms of power output there are stronger vision holders such as Beidou

And he doesn't have to know what's coming next because Danger Sense is designed to protect him from that.

I’m not disputing Danger Sense protecting Deku from hits, I’m just saying the Cryo avatar can keep him busy to the point he’ll never have enough reliable openings to go after Shenhe in order to get a victory, hence incon, because we can’t really tell who would break that kind of stalemate first, given their about equal status as strategists

Hence why I said "if she could." She really can't get hits on him and definitely not enough to take him out in a reasonable time.

Ah right k thx for clearing that up!

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

NPI barrels?

Barrel Sama, most powerful Genshin character

 

[Pikaman]

Barrel Sama, most powerful Genshin character

Barrel Sama solos your verse /j

 

[Pikaman]

Bump