Saint Seiya Discussion Thread (IV)

[Hasty12345]

Literally it is described that humans did not awaken a great will, and only harbored the spirit of the gods. This is what I wanted to indicate, that in this work the gods were born as divine beings, something that is described in the manga, where it is said that Hades is the son of Cronus and Rhea, unless in the original manga these are not gods.

Don’t try and twist your own words. You completely misrepresented your scan, at this point, I don’t trust anything you say, because I know you have shown yourself to be very vigilant with your translations in the past, I refuse to believe this wasn’t intentional.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Don’t try and twist your own words. You completely misrepresented your scan, at this point, I don’t trust anything you say, because I know you have shown yourself to be very vigilant with your translations in the past, I refuse to believe this wasn’t intentional.

I did not misunderstand in any way, I only said that in Taizen it is said that humans harbored the spirit of the gods, contrary to Hypermyth where it is described that Zeus, Hades and Poseidon were only humans who awakened a great will, in this case in Taizen that supposed great will that is described in Hypermyth is only the spirit of the gods, because these are divine beings in the manga and did not awaken anything.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Literally the Taizen version is different.

The spirits or the will of the gods was born with the big bang and then crossed the universe until it reached Earth, where humans were born in the image of the gods, and in time some humans harbored the spirit of the gods. There was never any mention of them awakening a great will or any such nonsense.

In Taizen it is described that this is only a legend.

This confirms that they never read Taizen.

You stated this Lancelot. As for the "humans awakening the Big\Divine Will", not entirely sure what your point is, care to clarify?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

You stated this Lancelot.

Yes, in reference to what is described in the Hypermyth and the comparison in the Taizen, where the spirits of the gods appeared with the big bang or after the big bang (because the great will that they represent only appeared after this event.).

Now we can talk about how the Taizen is different and it is never described that they awakened anything, and it literally follows what is presented in the original manga, where these beings are gods. Nor is there any mention of a 9th sense in this work.

 

[ZAMIR890]

wait if the gods were born in the big bang and I understand that the conceptual manipulation comes from the fact that everyone comes from the great will and the scans do not indicate that I believe something

 

[Hasty12345]

Idc about the validity of the statements at the moment, the Taizen can simply be wrong that’s fine, but what I’m not okay with Lancelot completely misrepresenthis scan to suit his narrative and it wasn’t even subtle.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I never misunderstood the scan. I literally told you from the beginning that Taizen describes something different from Hypermyth, but you insisted that the 9th sense was described in Taizen and that Taizen also described that the gods were humans who awakened a great will, when the original manga and Taizen indicate that these beings were born as divine entities and the humans only harbored the spirits of these gods. And I also mentioned from the beginning that this description is only myth within this universe.

 

[Hasty12345]

I never misunderstood the scan. I literally told you from the beginning that Taizen describes something different from Hypermyth, but you insisted that the 9th sense was described in Taizen and that Taizen also described that the gods were humans who awakened a great will, when the original manga and Taizen indicate that these beings were born as divine entities.

What even is this?

I know you understood the scan, that’s why I pointed out you INTENTIONALLY misrepresented it. Thanks for the admission.

I never have ever made a claim on the 9th sense being mentioned ANYWHERE outside of GA, and all my arguments thus far are WHY it hasn’t been mentioned.

STOP misrepresenting and lying about your scans and STOP misrepresenting me and putting words in my mouth.

 

[ZAMIR890]

a question where the conceptual manipulation comes from

 

[AlexZiggy]

Ok if I'm understanding this correctly, the crux of your argument, Lancelot, is this
The Taizen states that the Will of the Gods washed over the universe, thus implying they already existed
The Hypermyth states that gods were nothing but humans who learned how to control the "Big Will".
And this is a contradiction, correct? That's your point?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Ok if I'm understanding this correctly, the crux of your argument, Lancelot, is this
The Taizen states that the Will of the Gods washed over the universe, thus implying they already existed
The Hypermyth states that gods were nothing but humans who learned how to control the "Big Will".
And this is a contradiction, correct? That's your point?

Hypermyth is conjecture reached by the Graad foundation. It's an attempt from human scientists to try and understand God's. So everything in the hypermyth is from a human perspective.

However, he's trying to equate the divine will to the soul of a God.

 

[Hasty12345]

The Hypermyth can be freely contradicted, nothing in it is presented as fact. It’s presented as a research piece.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Hypermyth is conjecture reached by the Graad foundation. It's an attempt from human scientists to try and understand God's. So everything in the hypermyth is from a human perspective.

However, he's trying to equate the divine will to the soul of a God.

Yeah that's the issue. Nowhere have the two been equated yeah

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Hypermyth can be freely contradicted, nothing in it is presented as fact. It’s presented as a research piece.

Exactly this.

 

[AlexZiggy]

So disregarding the Hypermyth, the Taizen never says that the Divine Will and the spirits of the gods are the same, and the Gigantomachia clearly differentiates between the two. So unless it was retconned the later it would seem the two are in fact, seperate concepts.

 

[Hasty12345]

The origins of the Divine Will are murky at best, but it does exist and is separate from the soul of the gods. This much is evident in the Poseidon and Hades arc (and even GA mentions the Divine Will and in the passage no where is it implied it’s related to the soul).

 

[AlexZiggy]

The origins of the Divine Will are murky at best, but it does exist and is separate from the soul of the gods. This much is evident in the Poseidon and Hades arc (and even GA mentions the Divine Will and in the passage no where is it implied it’s related to the soul).

Yeah.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Ok if I'm understanding this correctly, the crux of your argument, Lancelot, is this
The Taizen states that the Will of the Gods washed over the universe, thus implying they already existed
The Hypermyth states that gods were nothing but humans who learned how to control the "Big Will".
And this is a contradiction, correct? That's your point?

The problem is that Taizen does not describe any of that, because humans did not awaken anything to become gods, because gods are born as divine entities representing a great will that appeared after the big bang. As I described from the beginning, the Taizen has a different description from the one shown in the Hypermyth. The great will as a sense or something that awakened humans to become gods is not described in Taizen, and literally follows what is presented in the original manga, where gods are born as divine beings.

In Taizen the humans harbored the spirit of gods, in Hypermyth the humans awakened a great will to become gods. So the concept of the great will as a sense or something that awakens a human to become a god does not exist in Taizen, and was only unique to Hypermyth, just like the ninth sense, which is also not described in Taizen. So the concept of the great will as a sense or something that awakens a human to become a god does not exist in Taizen, and was only unique to Hypermyth, just like the 9th sense, which is also not described in Taizen.

What even is this?

I know you understood the scan, that’s why I pointed out you INTENTIONALLY misrepresented it. Thanks for the admission.

I never have ever made a claim on the 9th sense being mentioned ANYWHERE outside of GA, and all my arguments thus far are WHY it hasn’t been mentioned.

STOP misrepresenting and lying about your scans and STOP misrepresenting me and putting words in my mouth.

They literally said that Taizen described the 9th Sense and also described what was presented in Hypermyth, when from the beginning I mentioned that Taizen had a different description, and the divine will was never a kind of super sense that the gods awakened.

So thank you for admitting that you were wrong, and what was described in Hypermyth was never canon, and the 9th sense does not exist in the original manga.

So stop this misinterpretation of the manga, and literally the manga does not describe anything of what you say.

 

[ZAMIR890]

After the birth of the Big Bang universe, the will of the gods traveled throughout the universe, poured out onto Earth and gave birth to life. Life evolved until the "human being" became the image of God. This scan seems to imply that gods are even older than the big bang since it does not mention that they created gods only that this went to the land where they created humans in his likeness

 

[Hasty12345]

The problem is that Taizen does not describe any of that, because humans did not awaken anything to become gods, because gods are born as divine entities representing a great will that appeared after the big bang. As I described from the beginning, the Taizen has a different description from the one shown in the Hypermyth. The great will as a sense or something that awakened humans to become gods is not described in Taizen, and literally follows what is presented in the original manga, where gods are born as divine beings.

In Taizen the humans harbored the spirit of gods, in Hypermyth the humans awakened a great will to become gods. So the concept of the great will as a sense or something that awakens a human to become a god does not exist in Taizen, and was only unique to Hypermyth, just like the ninth sense, which is also not described in Taizen.

They literally said that Taizen described the 9th Sense and also described what was presented in Hypermyth, when from the beginning I mentioned that Taizen had a different description, and the divine will was never a kind of super sense that the gods awakened.

So thank you for admitting that you were wrong, and what was described in Hypermyth was never canon, and the 9th sense does not exist in the original manga.

So stop this misinterpretation of the manga, and literally the manga does not describe anything of what you say.

I never said the Taizen or Hypermyth mentioned the 9th sense, that’s all in your head

 

[AlexZiggy]

The problem is that Taizen does not describe any of that, because humans did not awaken anything to become gods, because gods are born as divine entities representing a great will that appeared after the big bang. As I described from the beginning, the Taizen has a different description from the one shown in the Hypermyth. The great will as a sense or something that awakened humans to become gods is not described in Taizen, and literally follows what is presented in the original manga, where gods are born as divine beings.

In Taizen the humans harbored the spirit of gods, in Hypermyth the humans awakened a great will to become gods. So the concept of the great will as a sense or something that awakens a human to become a god does not exist in Taizen, and was only unique to Hypermyth, just like the ninth sense, which is also not described in Taizen.

Outside of the fact that the Taizen doesn't explicitly state that the Divine Will was born after the big bang, I agree. Thing is, if Hypermyth is just speculation then none of what you said really matters.

 

[Hasty12345]

Outside of the fact that the Taizen doesn't explicitly state that the Divine Will was born after the big bang, I agree. Thing is, if Hypermyth is just speculation then none of what you said really matters.

It really doesn’t, and he doesn’t get it.

The Hypermyth and Taizen are only ever used to show in conjunction with the manga that the Divine Will exists separately from the soul or body or cosmo of a god.

 

[AlexZiggy]

Why did this debate even come up again?

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I never said the Taizen or Hypermyth mentioned the 9th sense, that’s all in your head

They always mentioned it as an example of the 9th sense and an example that what was described in Hypermith was canon for the franchise, even when they indicated from the beginning that it said something different.

Outside of the fact that the Taizen doesn't explicitly state that the Divine Will was born after the big bang, I agree. Thing is, if Hypermyth is just speculation then none of what you said really matters.

A detail that I mentioned from the beginning, and also indicated that what is described in the Taizen is also a myth.

 

[Hasty12345]

They always mentioned it as an example of the 9th sense and an example that what was described in Hypermith was canon for the franchise, even when they indicated from the beginning that it said something different.

A detail that I mentioned from the beginning, and also indicated that what is described in the Taizen is also a myth.

Bro fr who tf is “they”? I have never said that. You are honestly a serial straw manner.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Bro fr who tf is “they”? I have never said that. You are honestly a serial straw manner.

Because you were not the only one who mentioned that detail.

 

[Hasty12345]

Because you were not the only one who mentioned that detail.

The only time I mentioned the Hypernyth describing the Divine Will as a sense was explaining to you how it doesn’t contradict the existence of the 9th or 10th sense.

As I’ve said numerous times. The Hypernyth is research conjecture. Nothing in it is presented as fact. It’s allowed to be contradicted.

Graad foundation using the phrase “super sense that surpasses all senses” to describe the Divine Will doesn’t even contradict anything. Humans are born with 5 senses, calling the Divine Will a “super sense” the gods have/are born with doesn’t mean anything. It’s just a phrase that doesn’t contradict the existence of other senses.

Stop twisting context.

 

[AlexZiggy]

This whole he said she said thing isn't working. Let's wait for people to post their cosmology blogs and such, then we can all call each other out on whatever inconsistencies there might exist there.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

The only time I mentioned the Hypernyth describing the Divine Will as a sense was explaining to you how it doesn’t contradict the existence of the 9th or 10th sense.

As I’ve said numerous times. The Hypernyth is research conjecture. Nothing in it is presented as fact. It’s allowed to be contradicted.

Graad foundation using the phrase “super sense that surpasses all senses” to describe the Divine Will doesn’t even contradict anything. Humans are born with 5 senses, calling the Divine Will a “super sense” the gods have/are born with doesn’t mean anything. It’s just a phrase that doesn’t contradict the existence of other senses.

Stop twisting context.

A description that does not exist in the original manga and neither does it exist in Taizen.

The great will never exists in the form described in the Hypermyth (it was never a sense or something that the gods awakened) and I said so from the beginning.

I also said that from the beginning, the Hypermyth has no importance for the franchise, why mention in the first place that work if what is described in this one is just a conjecture, why insist that the Taizen described the same as the Hypermyth.

So I end this debate and I hope that in the future that you (or any user who participated in this debate) do not use the Hypermyth as an example, if you want to use a description that is a myth in this universe, it is better to use what is described in the Taizen.

 

[Hasty12345]

you literally just misinterpret everything I say….

 

[StekFence]

What are ur opinions on giving the bronze five, and tenma keys for Gold bronze cloths.

 

[StekFence]

Also, do u think that since alone somehow projected his sadness through his eyes, that it’s valid for emphatic manip? It’s combat applicable too, cos it managed to overwhelm Pandora somehow, for so long that he was able to grab, and throw her without her so much as twitching.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This whole he said she said thing isn't working. Let's wait for people to post their cosmology blogs and such, then we can all call each other out on whatever inconsistencies there might exist there.

I'm waiting for GR to develop more before posting it.

 

[StekFence]

According to Episode G, Sho, Omega. Its driven by Human possibilities. Humans create infinite possibilities. Sho and Omega reference them as futures.

If the Gods created Mankind then there was a time when the multiverse never existed becausse humans didn't exist thus there is only 1 god

keeping long story short.

Well, In lc, tenmas dad, who is basically one of the best sources of info about time in ss if you think about it, says that the future is like a badly written script, where all u need to do is think of a story, and it’s created. A junction leads to two separate endings. Interpret that as u will

 

[StekFence]

Ch 206 btw

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

What are ur opinions on giving the bronze five, and tenma keys for Gold bronze cloths.

I don't think this is important to add to their profiles, because the golden glow only indicates that they reached the 7th Sense at that time, and the page already has a key for their version with 7th Sense.

Well, In lc, tenmas dad, who is basically one of the best sources of info about time in ss if you think about it, says that the future is like a badly written script, where all u need to do is think of a story, and it’s created. A junction leads to two separate endings. Interpret that as u will

No, he is one of the worst sources of information in this manga, because he was always wrong. As far as I remember he only talks about changes in time and how you can alter the timeline at some specific points in time, because according to his description you can't alter time at any point in time, and as he describes if he kills Shion at that point Seiya's future doesn't happen. This is explained even better in the TLC Gaidens. When he returns in Gaiden, he mentions that this was the last point in time where he could change events and avoid the future set up with Shion, something that was wrong from the beginning, as he could never change time because Tenma did not really survive the battle with Hades as he believed.

The Oracles have a different description of time, where any change could alter the timeline, as Alkes explains to Sisyphus, and the Oracles could also see the future.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Another feat of the Saints destroying or affecting a soul.

Shun asks Ikki to kill or attack him to smash (damage) Hades' soul in his body.
Shun: 兄さん...今だよ! ハーデスを倒すチャンスは今しかない!!
Shun: さあ 僕に構わず... 僕の体ごとハーデスの魂を打ちくだいて!!

I had never read this part in Japanese, and it is a good example to indicate that Saints can damage or destroy souls with their attacks.

It is a pity that this part has been mistranslated in an official translation.

Spoiler

---

Although in this part, Hades does say that Shun's soul had completely disappeared.
Hades: もはや瞬の魂は完全に消滅したのだ!!

This was the part I wanted to review, because many translations confuse the word spirit/mind with soul, but it clearly says soul.

So this translation is right.

Spoiler

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Spoiler of the chapter #10 of Dark Wing - Gold Saints (黄金聖闘士)

As the title indicates, it is the appearance of the 12 Gold Saints (another universe where the thirteenth Gold Saint does not exist, or is it Julius Griffin?) of this universe.

Taurus: Ain (アイン) because of Epsilon Tauri.
Cancer: Crematorio (クリマトーリオ) is Crematorium in Italian (and Spanish).
Leo: Vassilios (ヴァシリオス) is a Greek name.
Virgo: Renge (レンゲ) is lotus flower in Japanese.
Scorpio: Eulalia (エウラリア) is a Greek name.
Aquarius: Tristan (トリスタン) is a British hero.
Pisces: Alfried (アルフリード) is the same name as a character in Buddy Complex.

We are still trying to understand how to write or translate the name of Libra (紅月姫).

Problem solved, Libra's name is Kōgetsuki.

Cattleya could be the Athena with the worst luck, because her brother and friend (possible romantic interest) return as the Spectre of Garuda and Wyvern.

 

[StekFence]

Cattleya could be the Athena with the worst luck, because her brother and friend (possible romantic interest) return as the Spectre of Garuda and Wyvern.

I mean, sasha brother came back as Hades

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Not only Scorpio, Libra is also a woman in Dark Wing.

Spoiler

------------------------------------

Some fanatics also theorize that Virgo may be a woman.

In this chapter also appeared the Pope of the Sanctuary, who for the first time is a young man, this guy must be a monster in power, because he is a Pope that was not chosen at the last minute (probably he is trained for the position and has all the knowledge and power of the Pope) and he is in his prime.

Spoiler

---

Episode.G Requiem 20

聖闘士星矢EPISODE.Gレクイエム

聖闘士星矢EPISODE.Gレクイエム by チャンピオンクロス。地上が絶望に覆われてゆく…。陥落する聖域を前に、射手座の黄金聖闘士を継承した星矢は、アテナ神殿に囚われたアテナ沙織を救出するために、最大最後の闘いに挑む!「EPISODE.G」シリーズ、衝撃の最終章が開幕!!

mangacross.jp

Brontes is Mitsumasa Kido.

I have to say it again the writing of this is on the level of a fanfic.

There are times when I'm glad Kurumada doesn't take these stories into account when writing his manga.

I mean, sasha brother came back as Hades

Sasha still has her best friend (Tenma).