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DontTalkDT makes sense to me as usual.
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Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou Reality-Fiction stuff continued
- Thread starter DontTalkDT
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I wonder in which translation it says it starts from tloid. I read the series from about 3 different sites and translations and all of them were that the tloi would always be at the top, starting with the dreamer and going to the tloi, and this is the most logical and consistent with the series. Yoshie's narrative, which starts with "you hate fiction but you live in fiction" in the series, again supports that this is true from the bottom up.
Darksmash
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By "starting" I meant LOI is at the top. It is represented as the first being in existence who started the hierarchy
The "dream hierarchy" mentioned here is downwards, and is logically more consistent since it's talking about how LOI is at the top and no matter how many layers the downward hierarchy has, you can always trace it back to the origin at the top.
And the stuff in Volume 13 was talking about breaking the 4th wall in context, not transcendence:
We never actually see any explicit R>F hierarchy show up in this volume.
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Even then, I think what DT has shown serves as some kind of evidence of R>F layers in the verse
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Let me suggest again that we should preferably talk about the amount of reality-fiction layers in its own thread once we have established that the reality-fiction layers that there are (however many) are legit.
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If 20 people come out and say that this universe must be 10b, should it be like this? While low 2c feats are flying in that universe, you take what I want to tell elsewhere.
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I don't think that this prevents him from having an infinite hierarchy to reach it. As a creator, that is the beginning of everything. and in the same way, no matter how high you go, it will be the person you meet.
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Yoshie's words and words have nothing to do with the 4th wall. tells what is described in the dream hierarchy in a different way, with the same result. I mean, I'm extremely surprised how you read that quote and made a sense of breaking the 4th wall.
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I agree with DT. First of all, let's discuss whether there is a r>f hierarchy or not, if there is, we will discuss the amount.
Darksmash
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I will try to read the entire post later when I get time. Kinda busy with college rn.
The sad thing is, if you can get majority support for that argument it would actually be like that. Since that's how this website works. Exaggerated example but you get the meaning ofc.
We have to look at the context. The translation I posted uses a downwards infinite hierarchy.
And even if we assume it's an upward hierarchy, it would still be High 1-B since in context it's just the top of the hierarchy.
Yoshie's quote comes in the next page of the quote I posted, and it clarifies that the "multi layered" fiction is talking about breaking the 4th wall in context, with them realising they are fictional(story that is revealed to be a story).
If I want I can technically call the conclusion that the "multi layer" story is referring to R>F layers a non sequitur since it never elaborates what these layers are. That's why the quote that talks about a story revealed to be a story is important since it contextualises these layers.
Personally I would prefer moving in a sequential manner with the downgrade (aka firstly removing High 1-A and 1-A) and moving onto the layers after that. Mainly because I am a bit busy these days and would like to finalize the aspects of the downgrade that are easy to discuss before moving onto the more tedious aspects, since these kind of threads are quick to be closed
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this is how this wiki worked i am sure i will see 2A naruto low 1c bleach. In fact, at the end of the day, the mods decide the decision, not the members' fra. This is what I've seen during my time on this wiki.
I didn't know there was an official translation of this series. If so, can you send me the official translation link?
that is, yoshie talks about the first fiction that Akuto destroyed. He talks about not one, but infinite ones. so there are infinite 4th wall layers? Also, do you call the world Akuto destroyed as actually breaking a 4th wall? They are told as higher versions of fiction destroyed by akuton? it completely contradicts everything you said and creates an extremely illogical situation. I am in a box and when I destroyed it but realized there is another box. The one next to me said that there are infinitely many of these boxes. but you say that after the 1st box is to break the 4th wall, it is defined as the larger version of the first box that I destroyed, while the 2nd box makes no sense whatsoever you look at it.
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The thing is: I don't really agree with your estimate that these would be easy to dicuss. We had a thread on the subject of the amount of layers not long ago and IIRC it took literally months to conclude.
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I don't think this discussion will last long.
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Wdym by that?I don't think this discussion will last long.
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I actually think it will take a long time. I don't know why I wrote that.
Darksmash
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Where did Akuto destroy the original world? Curious since I have only read the last volume.
No it doesn't. We are never told what the verse means by the "layers". It could also be that the original story was just a volume in a bigger story. These would be "layers" but still won't have a transcendent difference. Saying it can only refer to Reality>Fiction layers is just tunnel vision.
These multi layered fictions were also directly linked to revealing that the story is fictional:
It seems like a very simple conclusion that it is contextualised by the "story that is revealed to be a story" that was mentioned few paragraphs prior.
If you compare the controversial nature of the arguments then discussing this topic first would definitely be less tedious.
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“I’m going to go a step beyond that. How about I crush this world in my grasp?”
“Eh?”
He had spoken so casually that it caught Fujiko off guard.
“This is a finite world and it’s filled with mana. Those are the rules, and that means…”
He stretched out his hand and bent his fingers as if training his grip.
The world began to creak.
“Ahh,” cried Fujiko in surprise.
The city shook, the air vibrated, and the pressure caused everything to groan.
The earth also shook. The earth would not normally be filled with mana, but this finite s.p.a.ce was entirely filled with mana and thus the earth itself was made of mana.
Akuto essentially held that finite s.p.a.ce in his grasp.
Fujiko realized he was crushing the very world into a smaller size.
“Akuto-sama…”
She quietly called his name in fear.
This was no different from suicide.
This was a world where they did not die and could not die, but would everything return to nothingness if he crushed that very world? His expression made it clear he had already resolved himself to answering that question.
His expression was calm as he quietly clenched his fist.
Seeing that, Fujiko simply took his other hand in her own.
The earth ripped up as if gathering in the center of the s.p.a.ce, the ocean approached the city as it raged like a tsunami, the buildings cracked, and the people began floating up into the air.
Pressure reached the entire planet as if the earth had sunk into the depths of an ocean.
This was an ending of the world that no one had seen before.
Fujiko clung to Akuto and he wrapped an arm around her shoulders, but then static suddenly came from the mana screen.
That static was soon followed by a voice.
“No! That ending isn’t allowed!”
The words were oddly accented and Akuto recognized the voice.
He turned toward the mana screen he had abandoned and he found a blonde version of Keena.
“Keena,” he muttered.
This was the other Keena that had appeared as a distortion when Keena aka the Law of Ident.i.ty had reset the world.
Akuto and the others had worked to erase her existence because she was not meant to exist.
As this quote says, Akuto destroys the reality that consists only of the world he is in. Then your wife Keena comes and says it can't be allowed. and then it is mentioned that a higher system came into play after Akuto destroyed that world. Yoshie bhaseder that akuto destroyed a fiction with that world, but that there is not one but an infinite number of them, and each is infinitely superior to the other. the context here literally means that there are worlds of fiction and infinite of these worlds, and that each one is infinitely more transcendent than the other. just like the dream hierarchy. The dream hierarchy explains the reality-fiction differences to us with an example of dreaming. here he talks about the same thing as the fiction layer. Here it is very clearly mentioned that there is a higher dimensional higher infinite fiction.
I don't quite understand what you mean here. So I will answer as I understand it. The concept of story within a story is the same as a dream within a dream. if i create a character who writes a story as a story writer. The story within the story exists, the same as a dream within a dream. the author gives us the same thing in 2 different ways, two different ways of expression, writing on a piece of paper or having a dream; What these two have in common is that they both represent fiction. It is fiction that a person sees in a dream. In the story he wrote, what is fiction for the person who sees the dream is real for the individuals in the dream. Likewise, the character in the story I wrote is real according to himself and fiction for me. The layers of fiction and the hierarchy of dreams mean the same or similar things precisely because of what I've described.
Darksmash
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But that's literally afterlife? All Akuto did was destroy and rebuild it later. It was never said he transcended to some layer above the afterlife.
Not by default. As I said, a case of tunnel vision. A story inside story can also mean the former is part of some bigger story. For example Umineko's story is part of the bigger when they cry franchise.
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Akuto123 is the one who makes sense to me in this discussion
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It is said that after destroying it, another system came into play. so what you said is wrong
It is the things that the series offers me that made me do this whole thing. If 2+2=4 is no different than saying 2+3=5 in my opinion. because, as I said, the author explains to us that stories are real for the person who wrote them, for the person in the fiction. that is, the author tells us "this is a fiction" in both of them and says that there is infinity in these two fictions. the person who dreams endlessly and the person who writes stories endlessly above each other. Even if you say these are different things, both are infinite reality fiction step, layer or step. Whatever you name it, the author explains to us what the stories are like, when they're fictional, and when they're real. This world was fiction. But it was also real. This wiki, which I tried to say, is an obvious reality for the outsider, for the inside fiction. relations work exactly as in the quote nu, naturally there is no problem with this dimensional layering.
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You're right, but feats don't fly in DKD
And the downgrade is inevitable, as, apparently, the tier 4 universe wasn't refuted, and tier 1 stuff are still being discussed, but they're definitely not staying the way they're now
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you tell me how it works in ümeniko, I tell you how it works in this series. Or rather, I'm trying to explain. the contexts given to us by the author, the narrations, the way the story works, we can understand some things ourselves, right? The author need not say anything to show that an apple is an apple. I think you or anyone else can figure out what is an apple and what is a plastic ball.
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It doesn't matter if you don't see success, it is extremely surprising for me that you can say "there is no success in the series" without knowing about the series. If you're ignoring the two infinite fiction reality hierarchies and their operation fits perfectly into the stratification of the wiki and saying "no success", I can only say this: I'm not Jesus, I can't heal a blind person.
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Talk like a human, please, who said DKD has no "success"?..... Makes no sense
Meh I'll just wait for @DontTalkDT and @Shuradou
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He never does, only earth is destroyed, in fact he returns back to the original world at the very end when he meets up with korone the original universe (solar system
) it never gets destroyed That wasn’t talking about the afterlife thought to be fair
No one refuted it cus it literally had no relevancy to the current tier, this was stated multiple times in the original thread
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What I am trying to say is that you do not read this series and say that there is no success at this level without knowing it. According to whom, if you know, discuss with me the same as darksmash did, but all you do is there is no success from where you are, there is no success. You first communicate with me in a healthy way and I will talk to you like a human. nothing is clear yet, the discussion is not over, it's still going on and you are talking as if you came from the future. You may find other people's arguments logical, but your ignoring my arguments and speaking nonsense is as human as the example I gave. I think you know that I told you that you don't want to see when you say you are blind, anyway, I won't argue any more for today. because I have work, if you have arguments against me, bring them, or instead of talking, please wait for the people who are arguing to finish their discussion. Unless your side is clear and you don't offer arguments or anything, all your comments pile up unnecessarily. Anyway, that's all from me for today. Good day to everyone
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If you want, let's talk privately. I don't want to reply to this discussion any more today.
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I know it's irrelevant, that is for the tier 1 keys
Seems that no one cares about the tier 2 keys, then?
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Who ever said i have arguments against you? Guys, please, I'm clearly talking about the tier 2 keys.....
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But nobody is ignoring you. They just happen to disagree with the current ratings
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Inconclusive i guest for now,waiting for the Other arguments
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I think it looks like L2c. My fault
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