OMORI Upgrades/Downgrades

[Guileal]

You really shouldn't take that shit seriously when it's clearly meant to be comedic. Are you telling me OMORI and the gang commit planetary genocide by defeating it? Clearly it's just Omori/Sunny repeating something he learned in middle school even though it clearly doesn't apply to his dreams.

Pluto was literally acting like a villain there, and why the hell would they commit genocide by defeating him? Pluto was launching the Earth, in no time omori and his friends destroyed a planet, out that he threw not only the earth but the moon as well.

I don't see any evidence of the Earth being that much bigger than Pluto, it's behind him, that's all.

Are you telling me the earth isn't the size of a planet?

 

[Armorchompy]

Pluto was literally acting like a villain there, and why the hell would they commit genocide by defeating him? Pluto was launching the Earth, in no time omori and his friends destroyed a planet, out that he threw not only the earth but the moon as well.

You're thinking of the wrong fight, you can just attack the Earth of your own choosing and destroy it.

Are you telling me the earth isn't the size of a planet?

When the planet Omori and the gang live on is also called Earth by Captain Spaceboyfriend and "the Earth" clearly looks like it's 5 meters tall yes, it's not the size of a planet.

 

[Antvasima]

Gonna tag @The_Smashor so he sees this

I have been told that notifications from calc group members do not always work.

@The_Smashor

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[The_Smashor]

I thought we had already concluded.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah but OMORI's graphics are absolutely not to scale here lol, it's a very limited artstyle that echoes old games, it absolutely should not be interpreted as a 100% faithful showing of size. I mean is every single tree in the huge-ass forest of the first area only five meters tall? Are all cars taller than the protagonists?

Then why are we using those graphics as if they're to scale in every other calc for the verse? If it's accurate enough to get the size of blocks Aubrey's destroying, the amount of building Pluto destroyed, and the size of statue the sprout mole lifted, it should be good enough to get Shark Plane's size.

Isn't Aubrey said to be really strong anyway? And Kel is taught a flexing technique by Pluto- I hope you're not insinuating Pluto is weaker than a Molesprout in LS? I don't think this level of scrutiny is right at all, when someone is established to be stronger in AP through sheer strength and there are no reason to assume the opposite, LS should scale.

Like I said, I'd just say that they're Unknown.

I thought we had already concluded.

I disagreed with a few things, explaining why here.

 

[The_Smashor]

I really don't care about the supporting calcs and lifting strength, ngl. You can do whatever if nobody else says anything.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah but OMORI's graphics are absolutely not to scale here lol, it's a very limited artstyle that echoes old games, it absolutely should not be interpreted as a 100% faithful showing of size. I mean is every single tree in the huge-ass forest of the first area only five meters tall? Are all cars taller than the protagonists?

Then why are we using those graphics as if they're to scale in every other calc for the verse? If it's accurate enough to get the size of blocks Aubrey's destroying, the amount of building Pluto destroyed, and the size of statue the sprout mole lifted, it should be good enough to get Shark Plane's size.

I'm saying it's not 100% faithful that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used at all in my opinion. Like if there's no other way to understand the size of something it's good enough but if there's better references those should take precedence.

Isn't Aubrey said to be really strong anyway? And Kel is taught a flexing technique by Pluto- I hope you're not insinuating Pluto is weaker than a Molesprout in LS? I don't think this level of scrutiny is right at all, when someone is established to be stronger in AP through sheer strength and there are no reason to assume the opposite, LS should scale.

Like I said, I'd just say that they're Unknown.

Look, man, I really don't agree with the logic leaps one has to make to get the fodder enemies that are a 2-foot tall cutesy plant species to be the strongest beings in the verse LS-wise. If you wanna apply that kinda scrutiny, cool, I'll keep disagreeing.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm saying it's not 100% faithful that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used at all in my opinion. Like if there's no other way to understand the size of something it's good enough but if there's better references those should take precedence.

Welp, I don't think it is a better reference since it's non-canon.

Look, man, I really don't agree with the logic leaps one has to make to get the fodder enemies that are a 2-foot tall cutesy plant species to be the strongest beings in the verse LS-wise.

Saying "We only know how strong this character is, and others are unknown" is not saying "That one character is the strongest in the verse", it's saying that we don't know. You could apply this same sort of argument to all vague high-tiers rated at Unknown, such as Majestic Presence, by asking why they're rated as "weaker" than characters like LEM. But we don't seem to take that as reason for giving them a rating, and I don't think that should be done here.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm saying it's not 100% faithful that doesn't mean it shouldn't be used at all in my opinion. Like if there's no other way to understand the size of something it's good enough but if there's better references those should take precedence.

Welp, I don't think it is a better reference since it's non-canon.

I mean if you want some supporting evidence Omori literally says that you can board a Shark Plane in Foe Facts, which clearly wouldn't be possible if it was the size you see in the overworld.

Look, man, I really don't agree with the logic leaps one has to make to get the fodder enemies that are a 2-foot tall cutesy plant species to be the strongest beings in the verse LS-wise.

Saying "We only know how strong this character is, and others are unknown" is not saying "That one character is the strongest in the verse", it's saying that we don't know. You could apply this same sort of argument to all vague high-tiers rated at Unknown, such as Majestic Presence, by asking why they're rated as "weaker" than characters like LEM. But we don't seem to take that as reason for giving them a rating, and I don't think that should be done here.

I don't know your obscure-ass visual novels my guy, if you're trying to make an example it's completely lost on me. But when a character, or a species rather, is estabilished to be much weaker than almost anything else, I think it's stupid to assume that literally everything else is weaker than them just because "well we can't know for sure that they're stronger"

This isn't a "vague high tier who we don't have any information on because all we know about them is five text boxes" situation, it's a "literally the weakest ******* thing in the verse which is estabilished multiple times" situation. My disagreement remains.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean if you want some supporting evidence Omori literally says that you can board a Shark Plane in Foe Facts, which clearly wouldn't be possible if it was the size you see in the overworld.

Oh shit, yeah that's fair, your calc should be fine then.

I don't know your obscure-ass visual novels my guy

I've never read a sentence of it, I just know that it's a High 1-B/1-A verse where the strongest few characters are rated at Unknown. But if you want, you can tell me what your favourite verses are, and I'll see if any characters anywhere have Unknown speed, LS, or SS.

But when a character, or a species rather, is estabilished to be much weaker than almost anything else, I think it's stupid to assume that literally everything else is weaker than them just because "well we can't know for sure that they're stronger"

Putting them at Unknown is not saying that they're weaker. Giving a character Unknown speed is not saying that they're slower than normal humans. It's saying that we don't have reliable information on that stat, and in this case, we don't.

This isn't a "vague high tier who we don't have any information on because all we know about them is five text boxes" situation, it's a "literally the weakest ******* thing in the verse which is estabilished multiple times" situation. My disagreement remains.

From reading the two-sentence descriptions on the top I/O profiles, they're known to transcend weaker characters, but are rated at Unknown regardless, and have had that rating for years.

EDIT: For a different example, Vegeta as of DBZ has Unknown LS, but omg, DB-era Goku has Class 5 to Class 100 LS. Does vsbw really think that first-arc kid Goku is better at lifting than DBZ Vegeta?

I really really don't think it'll be hard to find examples of this sorta thing all over the site. Unknown =/= weaker than everyone else in the verse.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't know your obscure-ass visual novels my guy

I've never read a sentence of it, I just know that it's a High 1-B/1-A verse where the strongest few characters are rated at Unknown. But if you want, you can tell me what your favourite verses are, and I'll see if any characters anywhere have Unknown speed, LS, or SS.

I think I know my own verses' scaling better than you do, actually. No More Heroes usually has a clear hierarchy and the few outliers that are rated as Unknown simply have no actual scaling of any sort in that regard or any baseline (Well, that might change at least for SS but I'm still deciding on whether I should present that in a CRT in the future), which isn't the case here. The Silver Case has Unknowns cause they literally are just information and nothing more. I don't think there's much else but feel free to check, I've got a list here.

But when a character, or a species rather, is estabilished to be much weaker than almost anything else, I think it's stupid to assume that literally everything else is weaker than them just because "well we can't know for sure that they're stronger"

Putting them at Unknown is not saying that they're weaker. Giving a character Unknown speed is not saying that they're slower than normal humans. It's saying that we don't have reliable information on that stat, and in this case, we don't.

We have reliable information in every single other stat- these guys are really weak. It would clearly contrast with their established place in the food chain if they were suddenly superior in one specific statistic that is still tied to strength. For the record I'd be willing to compromise on a "Likely/Possibly Class 25" since to be fair the evidence isn't iron solid, that much I recognize

This isn't a "vague high tier who we don't have any information on because all we know about them is five text boxes" situation, it's a "literally the weakest ******* thing in the verse which is estabilished multiple times" situation. My disagreement remains.

From reading the two-sentence descriptions on the top I/O profiles, they're known to transcend weaker characters, but are rated at Unknown regardless, and have had that rating for years.

If it were me they wouldn't be for the record, at least with the information presented which I am 100% sure is not complete and devoid of context, but there's a difference between tiering an incredibly abstract and mysterious god tier and scaling a LS rating because the protagonists should be stronger than goombas they stomp at the very beginning of the game.

 

[Agnaa]

We have reliable information in every single other stat- these guys are really weak. It would clearly contrast with their established place in the food chain if they were suddenly superior in one specific statistic that is still tied to strength. For the record I'd be willing to compromise on a "Likely/Possibly Class 25" since to be fair the evidence isn't iron solid, that much I recognize

Well if there's room for compromise, I may as well ask my only open question. Are they actually portrayed as ultra weak? It's been a fair bit since I played, and I only really remember them being portrayed as incredibly stupid. The only thing I remember indicating them being weak was that they're the first non-boss enemies you fight, but even then you fight variants of them throughout the game.

I don't, like, remember protagonists mocking them for being weak, or them being incapable of performing very low-level physical feats. I just remember them being very stupid and a bit gross.

If you can remind me of sufficiently convincing moments of that that I've missed, I'd be happy moving to something like "Unknown, likely/possibly Class 25".

but there's a difference between tiering an incredibly abstract and mysterious god tier and scaling a LS rating because the protagonists should be stronger than goombas they stomp at the very beginning of the game.

You may not have seen this since I edited that in, but tell that to DBZ characters who are at Unknown LS when they're busting planets, despite the series having building-level characters at Class 5 LS.

 

[Rikimarox2]

As per the new fallacy, anyone who mentions dragon ball in a thread that isn't about dragon ball gets a 10-year ban.

Goodbye Agnaa.

 

[Agnaa]

Well ****, next time I'll just stick to insanely-obscure weebshit.

 

[Armorchompy]

We have reliable information in every single other stat- these guys are really weak. It would clearly contrast with their established place in the food chain if they were suddenly superior in one specific statistic that is still tied to strength. For the record I'd be willing to compromise on a "Likely/Possibly Class 25" since to be fair the evidence isn't iron solid, that much I recognize

Well if there's room for compromise, I may as well ask my only open question. Are they actually portrayed as ultra weak? It's been a fair bit since I played, and I only really remember them being portrayed as incredibly stupid. The only thing I remember indicating them being weak was that they're the first non-boss enemies you fight, but even then you fight variants of them throughout the game.

I don't, like, remember protagonists mocking them for being weak, or them being incapable of performing very low-level physical feats. I just remember them being very stupid and a bit gross.

If you can remind me of sufficiently convincing moments of that that I've missed, I'd be happy moving to something like "Unknown, likely/possibly Class 25".

First off, by default we assume fodder is much weaker than playable characters. And even by the end of the tutorial they're not taken seriously anymore. Then there's the "Marsha" sprout moles which allegedly are masters of the axe but actually just have an axe duct-taped to their body and a really lost expression. The Therese sprout mole also looks like it's struggling a lot. Then there's the "Sprout Mole??" enemy which is made of the strongest parts from the strongest sprout moles and is still just a fodder enemy.

but there's a difference between tiering an incredibly abstract and mysterious god tier and scaling a LS rating because the protagonists should be stronger than goombas they stomp at the very beginning of the game.

You may not have seen this since I edited that in, but tell that to DBZ characters who are at Unknown LS when they're busting planets, despite the series having building-level characters at Class 5 LS.

Bro I got no clue what DB is doing with LS, by all means it should be "At least Class 100, likely far higher", don't ask me. Like Goku too has Unknown LS, it's not a matter of scaling.

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh also, Castella, who's the very same person with the LS feat, asks Aubrey to shatter the statue for her, implying she can't do that.

 

[Agnaa]

First off, by default we assume fodder is much weaker than playable characters. And even by the end of the tutorial they're not taken seriously anymore. Then there's the "Marsha" sprout moles which allegedly are masters of the axe but actually just have an axe duct-taped to their body and a really lost expression. The Therese sprout mole also looks like it's struggling a lot. Then there's the "Sprout Mole??" enemy which is made of the strongest parts from the strongest sprout moles and is still just a fodder enemy.

That's not really a species being shown to be weaker than everyone else. They're just a recurring species of enemy, with new versions being able to take out your party throughout most of the game.

Maybe I'm just missing something, because I don't see how that link has them "not being taken seriously", it's just Kel saying they've got the hang of it, and charging in to fight. And like, to be clear, it's not like sprout moles are weak enemies that roll over and die instantly without dealing damage in every area, they're usually on-par with other enemies in those zones. If you consider every non-boss enemy fodder, then fair enough, but I wanted to make it clear, since it kinda sounded like you were saying every other species in the game is portrayed as stronger.

Oh also, Castella, who's the very same person with the LS feat, asks Aubrey to shatter the statue for her, implying she can't do that.

She asks Aubrey to shatter it because she doesn't think she'll be able to move it out of the way without it being shattered into smaller easier-to-move pieces. But then, right after that, she lifts an identical statue, saying she just had to lift from the bottom. She's clearly unaware of her own capabilities regarding it, so this isn't a very reliable source. And still, SS =/= LS. We do not scale LS just because a character has higher SS.

 

[Armorchompy]

First off, by default we assume fodder is much weaker than playable characters. And even by the end of the tutorial they're not taken seriously anymore. Then there's the "Marsha" sprout moles which allegedly are masters of the axe but actually just have an axe duct-taped to their body and a really lost expression. The Therese sprout mole also looks like it's struggling a lot. Then there's the "Sprout Mole??" enemy which is made of the strongest parts from the strongest sprout moles and is still just a fodder enemy.

That's not really a species being shown to be weaker than everyone else. They're just a recurring species of enemy, with new versions being able to take out your party throughout most of the game.

Maybe I'm just missing something, because I don't see how that link has them "not being taken seriously", it's just Kel saying they've got the hang of it, and charging in to fight. And like, to be clear, it's not like sprout moles are weak enemies that roll over and die instantly without dealing damage in every area, they're usually on-par with other enemies in those zones. If you consider every non-boss enemy fodder, then fair enough, but I wanted to make it clear, since it kinda sounded like you were saying every other species in the game is portrayed as stronger.

Generally other enemies are portrayed as much less incompetent yes, I count that as being portrayed as stronger. And yes all non-boss enemies are fodder, not only that but even a fusion of every single Sprout Mole, a "Peak Sprout Mole" if you will, is still unable to keep up with the heroes and is just fodder. We typically consider fodder hurting protagonists to be Game Mechanics so I wouldn't say they're able to take out your party.

Oh also, Castella, who's the very same person with the LS feat, asks Aubrey to shatter the statue for her, implying she can't do that.

She asks Aubrey to shatter it because she doesn't think she'll be able to move it out of the way without it being shattered into smaller easier-to-move pieces. But then, right after that, she lifts an identical statue, saying she just had to lift from the bottom. She's clearly unaware of her own capabilities regarding it, so this isn't a very reliable source. And still, SS =/= LS. We do not scale LS just because a character has higher SS.

It's not that she's unaware of her own capabilities, she just finds a better way to lift it. And my argument here is still that Sprout Moles are generally portrayed as much weaker than the protagonists, that's been my argument for a while so don't pretend you don't know that.

 

[Agnaa]

Generally other enemies are portrayed as much less incompetent yes, I count that as being portrayed as stronger.

Great, now you're scaling combat skill/intelligence to physical strength...

a "Peak Sprout Mole" if you will, is still unable to keep up with the heroes and is just fodder.

I think "unable to keep up with the heroes" is really overstating things here. There's nothing special about that peak sprout mole and 99% of random enemy encounters in all RPGs.

And my argument here is still that Sprout Moles are generally portrayed as much weaker than the protagonists, that's been my argument for a while so don't pretend you don't know that.

My buddy, other characters can't do that sort of smashing. They always leave it to Aubrey. I don't think getting Aubrey to smash an object for you once is "general portrayal of being much weaker" any more than it would be for the protagonists, who regularly trade blows with enemies Aubrey fails to one-shot.

Hell, the entire cast needed to call outside help to get a giant block of cheese out of their way, which I just quickly calculated at 11.91 Tonnes. If they all had superior LS they should alone be able to lift, or at least push it.

While typing that last sentence out, I realized it could be seen as similar to "lol why does this character need a key to open a door", but in those cases the character usually has far more feats more impressive than getting past a locked door. For this series, for LS, they're featless, only having this weak bit of scaling, so I'm comfortable presenting an obstacle they can't get past as an anti-feat worth disqualifying scaling.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hell, the entire cast needed to call outside help to get a giant block of cheese out of their way, which I just quickly calculated at 11.91 Tonnes. If they all had superior LS they should alone be able to lift, or at least push it.

I had forgotten about that anti-feat, actually. Admittedly that does cast suspicion on the rating.

For the record I still think you're splitting hairs. Default procedure is fodder = much weaker than the protagonist, I don't really need any more proof than that in absence of anti-feats. But if there is one then I'm not sure.

 

[Antvasima]

If you write a summary for each of the arguments here, I can ask some other staff members to help out with input, to move past your deadlock.

 

[Agnaa]

We're deadlocked on two issues:

1. A scene involves a boss fight with a character. It starts by them powering up and destroying the building around them, before growing massive. During the boss fight, they start screaming and glowing, before it cuts back and we see that character small, the building entirely intact, with a character who should've gotten destroyed along with the building telling the others to stop fighting.
   • I interpret this as the trope where characters are having an epic battle, before cutting to reality where they were just imagining it, or it was otherwise highly exaggerated. Thus, the building-destruction feat isn't real and shouldn't be used.
   • Armorchompy interprets this as the joke being that they caused a massive amount of destruction which was inexplicably restored for no reason. Thus, the building-destruction feat was real, and the damage was just restored by someone in an unexplained manner.
2. There's a species you fight throughout most of the game, generally comprising random encounters (i.e. fodder enemies) and a few relatively weak mini-bosses. A member of this species asked a character in the party to destroy a marble statue for her so it could be more easily moved. This member of the species then picked up an identical marble statue from the bottom and moved it without issue. All of that is used to say that the species (and thus the individual who lifted that statue) are physically weak compared to the party, and so the protagonists should scale, despite never directly overpowering any of them in regards to lifting. However, as a point against this, the protagonists needed to call in outside help to get a massive block of cheese out of their way, which when calculated weighs less than the marble statue.
   • I don't think being a common random encounter and needing help with an SS feat once is good enough reason to scale LS to a story's protagonists. I think Unknown should be given instead.
   • Armorchompy thinks I'm splitting hairs, that by default random encounters are much weaker than protagonists, and thus should automatically scale. But he is willing to settle with likely/possibly, and thinks that the cheese anti-feat casts doubt on it.

 

[Antvasima]

We're deadlocked on two issues:

1. A scene involves a boss fight with a character. It starts by them powering up and destroying the building around them, before growing massive. During the boss fight, they start screaming and glowing, before it cuts back and we see that character small, the building entirely intact, with a character who should've gotten destroyed along the building telling the others to stop fighting.
   • I interpret this as the trope where characters are having an epic battle, before cutting to reality where they were just imagining it, or it was otherwise highly exaggerated. Thus, the building-destruction feat isn't real and shouldn't be used.
   • Armorchompy interprets this as the joke being that they caused a massive amount of destruction which was inexplicably restored for no reason. Thus, the building-destruction feat was real, and the damage was just restored by someone in an unexplained manner.
2. There's a species you fight throughout most of the game, generally comprising random encounters (i.e. fodder enemies) and a few relatively weak mini-bosses. A member of this species asked a character in the party to destroy a marble statue for her so it could be more easily moved. This member of the species then picked up an identical marble statue from the bottom and moved it without issue. All of that is used to say that the species (and thus the individual who lifted that statue) are physically weak compared to the party, and so the protagonists should scale, despite never directly overpowering any of them in regards to lifting. However, as a point against this, the protagonists needed to call in outside help to get a massive block of cheese out of their way, which when calculated weighs less than the marble statue.
   • I don't think being a common random encounter and needing help with an SS feat once is good enough reason to scale LS to a story's protagonists. I think Unknown should be given instead.
   • Armorchompy thinks I'm splitting hairs, that by default random encounters are much weaker than protagonists, and thus should automatically scale. But he is willing to settle with likely/possibly, and thinks that the cheese anti-feat casts doubt on it.

Thank you.

@Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions

Would any of you be willing to help us get past the deadlock here and reach a conclusion?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I agree with Agnaa's reasonings here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably apply what Agnaa suggested and Ogbunabali accepted here then.

 

[Agnaa]

Forgot about this thread for a while. I can apply it; the AP/SS/Dura would stay the same, just with the Pluto building destruction/size feats removed from their justification. LS would go to Unknown, unless there's some other feat people know of.

 

[Agnaa]

I've made the changes. Cleaned up a few minor formatting issues while I was at it. I noticed that Pluto had an LS calc that wasn't accepted by calc group or a CRT, but I cbf making a thread to remove it, so I'll just leave it up.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, so what, if anything, is left to do here?

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think there is anything, this can probably be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.